Re: Debian Wiki IP Address Unban Request

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 05:02:22PM -0400, Oliver Wenston wrote:
> I purchased a vps to use as my vpn server, and found out that it was black
> listed from the https://wiki.debian.org/ website. I am currently using
> Bookworm, and would love to be able to visit the wiki with my vpn.
> 
> Who should I contact next on a private channel to get my IP unbanned? Thank
> you very much.

>From :

Access to wiki.debian.org is blocked with 403 Forbidden

Please mail w...@debian.org with your IP address 

Debian Wiki IP Address Unban Request

[Oliver Wenston]

Dear Debian mailing list,

I purchased a vps to use as my vpn server, and found out that it was black
listed from the https://wiki.debian.org/ website. I am currently using
Bookworm, and would love to be able to visit the wiki with my vpn.

Who should I contact next on a private channel to get my IP unbanned? Thank
you very much.

Best regards,
Oliver

Re: CPU Microcode - Debian Wiki

[Georgi Naplatanov]

On 1/10/23 13:12, Dan Ritter wrote:

Georgi Naplatanov wrote:

Hi all!

I've just read Debian's Wiki page about CPU Microcode and there are
mentioned Intel's and AMD's processors for AMD64 architecture.

What is the situation with processors from other architectures
(arm64/AArch64 for example)?

  - do they have microcode?
  - can microcode be updated for these processors (from different
architectures) by Linux kernel? Is this supported by Debian GNU/Linux?


Microcode is run by a CPU to translate the nominal instruction
set (some variant on x86-64, for example) to the actually
implemented instruction set.

The majority of RISC-style CPUs don't have a microcode layer
because the point of RISC is that the CPU's native instruction
set is minimized -- the opinion is that compilers should do more
work.

What all CPUs have is errata -- mistakes that were made and
caught. If they are fixable, they are fixed in microcode for
machines that have that, or in the kernel for machines that
don't.

If you search for ARM_ERRATA in
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/arch/arm/Kconfig
you will see a number of situations in which the kernel is
fixing things that would otherwise be fixed in microcode.

So, upgrading the kernel is your best bet for those devices.

-dsr-



Thank you, Dan Ritter!

Kind regards
Georgi

Re: CPU Microcode - Debian Wiki

[Dan Ritter]

Georgi Naplatanov wrote: 
> Hi all!
> 
> I've just read Debian's Wiki page about CPU Microcode and there are
> mentioned Intel's and AMD's processors for AMD64 architecture.
> 
> What is the situation with processors from other architectures
> (arm64/AArch64 for example)?
> 
>  - do they have microcode?
>  - can microcode be updated for these processors (from different
> architectures) by Linux kernel? Is this supported by Debian GNU/Linux?

Microcode is run by a CPU to translate the nominal instruction
set (some variant on x86-64, for example) to the actually
implemented instruction set.

The majority of RISC-style CPUs don't have a microcode layer
because the point of RISC is that the CPU's native instruction
set is minimized -- the opinion is that compilers should do more
work.

What all CPUs have is errata -- mistakes that were made and
caught. If they are fixable, they are fixed in microcode for
machines that have that, or in the kernel for machines that
don't.

If you search for ARM_ERRATA in
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/arch/arm/Kconfig
you will see a number of situations in which the kernel is
fixing things that would otherwise be fixed in microcode.

So, upgrading the kernel is your best bet for those devices.

-dsr-

CPU Microcode - Debian Wiki

[Georgi Naplatanov]

Hi all!

I've just read Debian's Wiki page about CPU Microcode and there are 
mentioned Intel's and AMD's processors for AMD64 architecture.


What is the situation with processors from other architectures 
(arm64/AArch64 for example)?


 - do they have microcode?
 - can microcode be updated for these processors (from different 
architectures) by Linux kernel? Is this supported by Debian GNU/Linux?


Thanks in advance.

Kind regards
Georgi

Re: Debian wiki update: ask for review

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 22:03:16 +0100
Yvan Masson  wrote:

> I made a few modifications based on your comments: 
> https://wiki.debian.org/GRUB2?action=diff=28=27
> 
> Hope it is clear now.

Much better, thank you.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/


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Re: Debian wiki update: ask for review

[Yvan Masson]

Le 01/12/2022 à 18:14, Charles Curley a écrit :

On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 16:07:53 +0100
Yvan Masson  wrote:


I have just updated the GRUB2 page on the wiki to briefly explain how
GRUB2 should be configured in case of software RAID [1]. As I am not
an expert nor an English native, could someone have a look to check
this?


Being a native English speaker, but no expert on either RAID or GRUB, I
took a look.

* /select every drives./select each drive in sequence./

   Did you mean each drive in the RAID array, or all fixed drives,
   including any drives not in the boot array, and drives in other RAID
   arrays? I'm pretty sure you don't mean removable drives such as USB
   external drives.

Be aware that there may be more than two drives in a RAID array, and
there may be spares beyond the minimum number. I'm guessing one should
include spares. E.g.: I have a RAID 5 array with the minimum three
drives and a spare.


Hi Charles,

I made a few modifications based on your comments: 
https://wiki.debian.org/GRUB2?action=diff=28=27


Hope it is clear now.

Yvan


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Re: Debian wiki update: ask for review

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 16:07:53 +0100
Yvan Masson  wrote:

> I have just updated the GRUB2 page on the wiki to briefly explain how 
> GRUB2 should be configured in case of software RAID [1]. As I am not
> an expert nor an English native, could someone have a look to check
> this?

Being a native English speaker, but no expert on either RAID or GRUB, I
took a look.

* /select every drives./select each drive in sequence./

  Did you mean each drive in the RAID array, or all fixed drives,
  including any drives not in the boot array, and drives in other RAID
  arrays? I'm pretty sure you don't mean removable drives such as USB
  external drives.

Be aware that there may be more than two drives in a RAID array, and
there may be spares beyond the minimum number. I'm guessing one should
include spares. E.g.: I have a RAID 5 array with the minimum three
drives and a spare.



-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/


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Debian wiki update: ask for review

[Yvan Masson]

Hi,

I have just updated the GRUB2 page on the wiki to briefly explain how 
GRUB2 should be configured in case of software RAID [1]. As I am not an 
expert nor an English native, could someone have a look to check this?


Thanks,
Yvan

1. https://wiki.debian.org/GRUB2?action=diff=27=26


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Re: Debian Wiki down

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Thu, Sep 09, 2021 at 09:54:48PM +0200, s...@hardwarepunk.de wrote:
> Hello alltogether,
> 
> the Debian Wiki seems to be down, and I do not know where and how to
> send a bug report to. If I go to any side below
> https://wiki.debian.org/, I only get the following message:
> 
> Forbidden
> 
> You are not allowed to access this!
> 
> Greetings
> 
> Sven
> 

It is possible that your IP block / your ISP may have been blocked in the
past because of problems: sometimes, this is also true if you're trying to
access the wiki via a VPN.

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#visitors suggests:

Mail w...@debian.org with your IP address and a request for access.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

Debian Wiki down

[s...@hardwarepunk.de]

Hello alltogether,

the Debian Wiki seems to be down, and I do not know where and how to
send a bug report to. If I go to any side below
https://wiki.debian.org/, I only get the following message:

Forbidden

You are not allowed to access this!

Greetings

Sven

Re: SystemVirtualization: Debian-wiki page update?

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 12 mai 20, 10:24:51, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 12 mai 2020 à 09:55 de riveravaldezm...@gmail.com:
> 
> > not sure if this is the place for this, but I've found a little
> > confusing to find where to mention a debian-wiki issue...
> >
> I'm not answering the "issue" part itself but here are two pointers regarding 
> how to contact the Debian Wiki team:
> * https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact
> * https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianWiki

The Debian Wiki team is responsible for maintaining the service itself, 
not the content.
 
> I think you should combine feedbacks from Debian-User (daily 
> operational) with those from Debian Wiki people (maybe more about 
> public policy/approach).

It's a wiki, just go ahead and make the change.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: SystemVirtualization: Debian-wiki page update?

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

12 mai 2020 à 09:55 de riveravaldezm...@gmail.com:

> not sure if this is the place for this, but I've found a little
> confusing to find where to mention a debian-wiki issue...
>
I'm not answering the "issue" part itself but here are two pointers regarding 
how to contact the Debian Wiki team:
* https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact
* https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianWiki

I think you should combine feedbacks from Debian-User (daily operational) with 
those from Debian Wiki people (maybe more about public policy/approach).

Best regards,
l0f4r0

SystemVirtualization: Debian-wiki page update?

[riveravaldez]

Hi, not sure if this is the place for this, but I've found a little
confusing to find where to mention a debian-wiki issue...

The SystemVirtualization[1] wiki-page offers as first 'Debian
solution' VirtualBox[2], which is non-free and "not available in
Debian 10 and won't be in buster-backports either[3]. A recommended
alternative is Virtual Machine Manager (buster/virt-manager)", so, I
suppose virt-manager[4] should be the first offered Debian-solution,
wouldn't be?

Best regards!

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/SystemVirtualization
[2] https://wiki.debian.org/VirtualBox
[3] https://bugs.debian.org/794466
[4] https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/virt-manager

Re: Debian Wiki não acessível no Brasil

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Olá Diego,

Em 21/04/2020 10:09, Diego Rabatone Oliveira escreveu:
> 
> Pelo que andei pesquisando parece que a faixa de IPs da Net/Claro foi
> bloqueada pelo projeto. :(
> 
> Alguma alternativa, além de usar uma VPN?

Mande um email para os admins da wiki pedindo pra liberar a faixa de IPs.

Abraços,


-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Debian Developer
Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres
Site: http://www.phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450



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Re: Debian Wiki não acessível no Brasil

[Fábio Rabelo]

TorBrowser ...

Tive espe mesmo problema com o site do Xigmanas no ano passado .

O TorBrowser resolveu :https://www.torproject.org/


Fábio Rabelo

Em ter., 21 de abr. de 2020 às 10:09, Diego Rabatone Oliveira <
dir...@diraol.eng.br> escreveu:

> Olá pessoal,
>
> espero que todo mundo (e seus parentes) estejam bem!
>
> Aproveitando que rolou uma troca de mensagens na lista, gostaria de saber
> quem mais tem tido problemas para acessar a wiki do Debian. Já há alguns
> meses eu recebo o seguinte retorno:
>
> Forbidden
>
> You are not allowed to access this!
>
>
> Pelo que andei pesquisando parece que a faixa de IPs da Net/Claro foi
> bloqueada pelo projeto. :(
>
> Alguma alternativa, além de usar uma VPN?
> Abraços, fiquem em casa e lavem as mãos!
>
> 
> Diego Rabatone Oliveira
> Twitter: @diraol
>

Debian Wiki não acessível no Brasil

[Diego Rabatone Oliveira]

Olá pessoal,

espero que todo mundo (e seus parentes) estejam bem!

Aproveitando que rolou uma troca de mensagens na lista, gostaria de saber
quem mais tem tido problemas para acessar a wiki do Debian. Já há alguns
meses eu recebo o seguinte retorno:

Forbidden

You are not allowed to access this!


Pelo que andei pesquisando parece que a faixa de IPs da Net/Claro foi
bloqueada pelo projeto. :(

Alguma alternativa, além de usar uma VPN?
Abraços, fiquem em casa e lavem as mãos!


Diego Rabatone Oliveira
Twitter: @diraol

Re: Debian Wiki and LSB (https://wiki.debian.org/LSB)

[Alessandro Vesely]

On Sat 17/Aug/2019 04:13:28 +0200 Steffen Dettmer wrote:
> - https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts
> - https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot
> 
> It would be great if someone experienced could take a look. Especially
> the last two pages could need more updating, since AFAIK init.d
> scripts unfortunately are superseeded by systemd units.


They are not superseded, some systems use systemd, some systems stick
to sysv.  Currently, there are developers working hard to uphold
diversity.  They consider LSB prescriptions perhaps even too strictly;
Dmitry Bogatov said he considers insserv much like a compiler of the
LSB headers, thereby disallowing any manual intervention in the wake
of ye olde SysV (which is still considered in the first link above).


Best
Ale

Re: Debian Wiki and LSB (https://wiki.debian.org/LSB)

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi,

ok, thank you for your quick reply! I hope it is OK to edit there. To avoid
confusion I added a hint with a link to https://lwn.net/Articles/658809/
and updated the following WikiTopics:

- https://wiki.debian.org/LSB
- https://wiki.debian.org/DebianLsb
- https://wiki.debian.org/LsbRuntimeCompliance
- https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts
- https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot

It would be great if someone experienced could take a look. Especially the
last two pages could need more updating, since AFAIK init.d scripts
unfortunately are superseeded by systemd units.

Steffen


On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 11:19 PM Roberto C. Sánchez 
wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 11:15:32PM +0200, Steffen Dettmer wrote:
> >Hi,
> >    is the "Debian Wiki" at  [1]https://wiki.debian.org/ "official"? If
> so, I
> >hope here is the right place to ask. The wiki at e.g.
> >[2]https://wiki.debian.org/LSB tells "Currently all major
> distributions
> >comply with the LSB" and [3]https://wiki.debian.org/DebianLsb tells
> >"Debian strives to follow and comply with the Linux Standard Base".
> This
> >are high ranked google hits for searching "debian lsb".
> >I though Debian essentially dropped (almost all) LSB compliance.
> >Is the Wiki just outdated or is LSB support back?
> >Steffen
>
> The first page has not been updated in over 10 years and the second page
> in over 9 years.  They are definitely outdated.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto
> --
> Roberto C. Sánchez
>
>

Re: Debian Wiki and LSB (https://wiki.debian.org/LSB)

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 11:15:32PM +0200, Steffen Dettmer wrote:
>Hi,
>is the "Debian Wiki" at  [1]https://wiki.debian.org/ "official"? If so, I
>hope here is the right place to ask. The wiki at e.g.
>[2]https://wiki.debian.org/LSB tells "Currently all major distributions
>comply with the LSB" and [3]https://wiki.debian.org/DebianLsb tells
>"Debian strives to follow and comply with the Linux Standard Base". This
>are high ranked google hits for searching "debian lsb".
>I though Debian essentially dropped (almost all) LSB compliance.
>Is the Wiki just outdated or is LSB support back?
>Steffen

The first page has not been updated in over 10 years and the second page
in over 9 years.  They are definitely outdated.

Regards,

-Roberto
-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Debian Wiki and LSB (https://wiki.debian.org/LSB)

[Steffen Dettmer]

Hi,

is the "Debian Wiki" at  https://wiki.debian.org/ "official"? If so, I hope
here is the right place to ask. The wiki at e.g. https://wiki.debian.org/LSB
tells "Currently all major distributions comply with the LSB" and
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianLsb tells "Debian strives to follow and
comply with the Linux Standard Base". This are high ranked google hits for
searching "debian lsb".

I though Debian essentially dropped (almost all) LSB compliance.

Is the Wiki just outdated or is LSB support back?

Steffen

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that quoted
> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.

12 thousand is not much. Popular germanisms get more. We are busy
spoilers of english language.



After considering all proposals made so far, and the statements in
Steve McIntyre's mail, i inow wrote in the wiki

  wodim should not be used with DVD or BD media.
  [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01078.html|
This statement is supported by wodim's maintainer.]]

Edit comment is:
  Hopefully final statement on wodim with DVD or BD media.
  Backed by maintainer of wodim.

Steve agreed to my statement with the word "better" in it. That word was
not essential to the advise. So i dropped it.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Lee]

On 9/29/18, Dominic Knight  wrote:
> On Sat, 2018-09-29 at 08:59 +, Curt wrote:
>> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>> > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
>> > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
>> > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
>> > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)
>>
>> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that
>> quoted
>> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.
>>
> So 12,000 people can be wrong :)
>
> Just altering the word order gives more clarity to the statement.
>
> "should be better not used" While still not entirely correct implies
> less of a threat.
>
> "(it) better not be used (or)" - "the computer gods will frot you"
>
> "would be better not used" may be correct depending on the rest of the
> context.
>
> Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied?

Wodim should not be used for burning to DVD or BD media.

Which also implies no support for DVD/BD burning.  And link "should
not be used" to
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01048.html
to explain why it should not be used?

Regards,
Lee

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-29, Dominic Knight  wrote:
>
> Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied?

Implicit threats? Yeah, man. Like: 

"Got money and DVD/BD media to burn? Then burn 'em up with wodim*, the
geeky masochist's premier choice for an unspecifiable subset of his
burning needs."

*Read instructions before use. Harmful if swallowed.

> Cheers
> Dom.


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Dominic Knight]

On Sat, 2018-09-29 at 08:59 +, Curt wrote:
> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
> > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
> > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
> > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)
> 
> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that
> quoted
> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.
> 
So 12,000 people can be wrong :)

Just altering the word order gives more clarity to the statement.

"should be better not used" While still not entirely correct implies
less of a threat. 

"(it) better not be used (or)" - "the computer gods will frot you"

"would be better not used" may be correct depending on the rest of the
context.

Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied?

Cheers
Dom.


> Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of
> electrons
> for nothing.
> 
> There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue
> (unless
> Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place).
> 
> Out.
> 
> > Have a nice day :)
> > 
> > Thomas
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Étienne Mollier]

On 9/29/18 10:59 AM, Curt wrote:
> Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of 
> electrons
> for nothing.
> 
> There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue (unless
> Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place).

That's quite some entropy created in our universe.
If Carnot is right, we won't get away with it.

Cheers.
-- 
Étienne Mollier 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
> Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
> But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
> (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)

I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that quoted
phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.

Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of electrons
for nothing.

There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue (unless
Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place).

Out.

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:

> Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
> But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
> (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)

As specified in the part of my article you snipped, the unique purpose
of my proposals was to eliminate your unidiomatic phraseology, not to
alter or embellish or ameliorate the nature of the message itself.

I do think you should probably add your cell phone number to the wiki so
that confused users can ring you up if they encounter difficulties. This
is being done more and more by developers these days. There's nothing
like that "personal touch," Tom, to get those recalcitrant users on
board with your software.

Good luck and have a good one.

Curt

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Curt proposed:
>  Wodim has proved to fail under certain conditions and as a general rule
>  should probably be avoided when burning to DVD or BD media.

I like this better than what Brian (i assume) committed now:

  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff=36=37

  "Wodim has proved much less reliable when used with DVD or BD media
   and is best avoided when burning to those media."

In that statement i object the term "reliable". The failures are
reproducible and due to inappropriate preparation commands before
writing begins or inappropriate finalization commands after writing.

Let me give you an example:

With CD-R, the drive expects to get a SCSI command MODE SELECT with
a "mode page 05" as payload. That mode page is a form with several fields.
Among them is the field "Write Type". We normally use 2="SAO" or 1="TAO".
Then there is the "Multi-session" field. 0=finalize, 3=keep writable.

With DVD-R, which is very similar to CD-R, a mode page 05 is sent too.
The Write Type can be 2="DAO" or 0="Incremental". Only with "Incremental"
the Multi-session field can be used to keep the medium writable.

With DVD+R, no mode page 05 must be sent. The decision whether the medium
stays writable is postponed until writing is done. Each track is finished
by a command CLOSE TRACK SESSION. An additional command CLOSE TRACK SESSION
may close the whole medium.

Now imagine wodim applying the rules for CD-R to the other two.
With DVD-R, chances for success are quite good. A CD-R SAO run with
Multi-session = 0 matches a DVD-R DAO run. But DVD-R Multi-session = 1
demands a different Write Type value than CD SAO or TAO.
With DVD+R, the need for the finalizing commands will not be fulfilled.
Also the drive will complain about the mode page 05 being sent.

This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
(Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> i wrote:
>> > So how should the statement be improved ?
>> > ["wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."]
>
> Curt wrote:
>> You could say:
>>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
>> Or
>>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
>> Or
>>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>>  best avoided when burning to those media.
>
> Number 1 and 2 would bear content equivalent to mine.

Right. My reason to rephrase was only that "should better not" isn't
quite idiomatic English. It's not a big deal, though.

> Number 3 is inaccurate, because wodim works with some media types in
> some situations reliably. It fails at other occasions reliably.
>

Here I went out on a limb. Though it's true I'd gladly trade a superior
turn of phrase for a little accuracy.

 Wodim has proved to fail under certain conditions and as a general rule
 should probably be avoided when burning to DVD or BD media.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

discussing debian wiki on the wiki (was Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 06:49:26PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:

- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
 to other editors why a particular change was undone ?


Moin doesn't directly have the "talk" feature that some other wikis
do, sorry.


It can have Discussion pages via "supplementation pages" feature[1]. My
recollection back when we moved to Moin (from kwiki I think?) was that
it was decided by the responsible admins to instead encourage using
debian-www for wiki-related discussion, and to not use Discussion pages.

That was a long time ago and I think it's fair to say that debian-www is
probably not the ideal place for wiki content discussions after all. It
might be worth revisiting the decision, although this (-user) isn't the
place to suggest that. (I might suggest it in the proper place if I have
time next week).

[1] https://moinmo.in/HelpOnConfiguration/SupplementationPage

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 19:10:40 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 15:59:26 +, Curt wrote:
> 
> > On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> > >
> > > Curt wrote:
> > >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> > >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
> > >
> > > Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> > >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> > >> that.
> > >
> > > So how should the statement be improved ?
> > 
> > "should better not be used" is a bit twisted.
> > 
> > You could say:
> > 
> >  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> > 
> > Or:
> >  
> >  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> > 
> > Or:
> > 
> >  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
> >  best avoided when burning to those media.
> 
> The last statement is good and the one I'd be inclined to go with, maybe
> qualifying "less" with "much".

See what you think on the wiki.

-- 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote towards Jonathan Dowland:
> > Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself.
> > So it is not a wiki war.

Brian wrote:
> Why is it questionable? Either you stand behind your statement or not.

Wikis going forth and back several times don't make a good impression.
I'd have waited for Steve McIntyre's statement or some community
consense before reverting the change. Well, Jonathan established that
consense after considering the presented arguments.

Now i have to speak in favor of keeping my favorite zombies undead.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > So how should the statement be improved ?
> > ["wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."]

Curt wrote:
> You could say:
>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> Or
>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> Or
>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>  best avoided when burning to those media.

Number 1 and 2 would bear content equivalent to mine.

Number 3 is inaccurate, because wodim works with some media types in
some situations reliably. It fails at other occasions reliably.


Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I'm fond of:
>   wodim should not be used.
> Although that may be too strong.  Maybe keep that "with DVD/BD media" bit
> on the end. ;-)

Then it would be

  wodim should not be used with DVD/BD media

and thus quite similar to the current wording.

I had chosen the current wording in order not to badmouth wodim, which
still is needed for some exotic CD use cases (CD-XA, data-audio mixed mode,
"raw" burning modes, ...).

My libburn does pure data CD or pure audio CD. For all other use cases
i lack examples and test users.


Steve McIntyre wrote:
> cdrkit is definitely now EOL, and I don't use it
> myself for writing DVD or BD media.

Thanks a lot for this clarification. Your message
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01078.html
will serve me as evidence to defend my position at future occasions.




So as question to native speakers of english language:

How to express in a concise sentence the fact that users of wodim
will be on their own if anything goes wrong on DVD or BD ?

Please read the whole section
  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd#Burn_the_image_file_to_CD.2C_DVD.2C_or_BD
to get the context. The sentence in question is near the section's end.

It seems not necessary for the purpose of the wiki page to give much
reason or detail for the advise to restrict wodim usage to CDs.
The residual use cases are not in the scope of the wiki article for
quite the same reasons why they are not supported by libburn.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Future of cdrkit. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Steve McIntyre wrote:
> The only 2 reasons I've had for keeping the cdrkit package in Debian
> were:
> 1. hfs hybrid support in genisoimage, a topic that Thomas and I have
>spoken about in the past. Now that we no longer have powerpc in
>Debian stable and I don't have to care about making CD and DVD
>releases for it

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, maintainer of rare arches, stated to me
that a 64 bit PowerPC variant still wants HFS.
We did not explore, though, whether it would accept HFS+ of xorriso or
whether it could be served by a HFS image file inside the ISO, similar
to the HFS+ image file in Fedora ISOs.


>  2. icedax's support for extracting cd-text from audio CDs. As
> (also!) maintainer of abcde, that's a very useful feature. I'm
> not aware of anything else that supports it - suggestions
> welcome!

cdrskin can extract CD-TEXT as human readable Sony Input Sheet file.
Search for the example input file "NIGHTCATS.TXT" in
  https://dev.lovelyhq.com/libburnia/libburn/raw/master/doc/cdtext.txt
to see how this format looks like.

I just tested that it works (without much messages) by:

  cdrskin -v dev=/dev/sr4 cdtext_to_v07t=$HOME/cdtext.v07t

The resulting sheet file is then $HOME/cdtext.v07t.
(The CD is self-made. I have no commercial CD with CD-TEXT.)

In man icedax i read mainly about .cddb and .cdindex files.
Do you have examples ? Can you make a sheet file by cdrskin for
comparison with those files from icedax ?

--

Don't throw wodim out of Debian. Its residual use cases are worth to
be kept supported. (Although i can explain them only from hearsay
and specs.)

genisoimage is still needed, too. Not only -hfs for booting but also
-udf for DVD video mastering or big data files for *BSD target systems.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 15:59:26 +, Curt wrote:

> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
> >
> > Curt wrote:
> >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
> >
> > Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> >> that.
> >
> > So how should the statement be improved ?
> 
> "should better not be used" is a bit twisted.
> 
> You could say:
> 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
>  
>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
> 
>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>  best avoided when burning to those media.

The last statement is good and the one I'd be inclined to go with, maybe
qualifying "less" with "much".

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 17:47:34 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> > Dowland).
> 
> Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself.
> So it is not a wiki war.

Why is it questionable? Either you stand behind your statement or not.
Of course, if you and StephenKeeling had been contactable via the wiki
a recourse to -user needn't have taken place. Not that it hasn't been
of interest.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Steve McIntyre]

Jon Dowland wrote:
>On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:00:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>>wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
>>and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.
>
>That would be reason enough to avoid wodim IMHO... but it would also
>suggest that wodim should not be in the archive either. The binary
>package name wodim is currently provided by the src package cdrkit. Is
>that abandoned? (I'm asking this elsewhere, too)

The only 2 reasons I've had for keeping the cdrkit package in Debian
were:

  1. hfs hybrid support in genisoimage, a topic that Thomas and I have
 spoken about in the past. Now that we no longer have powerpc in
 Debian stable and I don't have to care about making CD and DVD
 releases for it,

  2. icedax's support for extracting cd-text from audio CDs. As
 (also!) maintainer of abcde, that's a very useful feature. I'm
 not aware of anything else that supports it - suggestions
 welcome!

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey Thomas!

Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>
>is perhaps the Debian wiki user StephenKeeling subscribed here ?
>We need to discuss the recent wiki change
>  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff=30=31
>
>Alternatively:
>- Does the wiki have means to contact a particular Debian wiki user ?

Not directly, I'm afraid.

>- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
>  to other editors why a particular change was undone ?

Moin doesn't directly have the "talk" feature that some other wikis
do, sorry.

>If Steve McIntyre or Joerg Jaspert, the DDs involved with wodim, are
>reading this: Could you please confirm this statement of mine ?
>  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

Well, that's me. :-) cdrkit is definitely now EOL, and I don't use it
myself for writing DVD or BD media. You can quote me on that. Feel
free to change the wiki page back to where it was.

As an admin for wiki.debian.org, I'd have BCCed this mail to
StephenKeeling (as I have access to the user account data too), but
he's removed the email address from his account so I can't. :-(

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[rhkramer]

On Friday, September 28, 2018 01:32:38 AM Richard Hector wrote:
> How about something like:
> 
> "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not
> meet the relevant specifications."
> 
> or perhaps s/work/appear to work/

I am also not an expert in this area, but I would ask is it "will not meet" or 
is it "may not meet" (the relevant specifications).

> Note: I have no expertise in this area; I'm merely interpreting the
> comments above.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 03:59:26PM +, Curt wrote:
> "should better not be used" is a bit twisted.
> 
> You could say:
> 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
>  
>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
> 
>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>  best avoided when burning to those media.

I'm fond of:

  wodim should not be used.

Although that may be too strong.  Maybe keep that "with DVD/BD media" bit
on the end. ;-)

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 16:29:56 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +, Curt wrote:
> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
> 
> For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development.
> 
> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> that.

Sufficient rationale is in

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01033.html

 > My way to express the current technical situation was the statement:
 >
 >  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
 >
 > which now became
 >
 >  "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD
 >   media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most
 >  especially burner types and condition, and media quality.
 >  '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''"

 > It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm).

A user doesn't have to be a cdrkit developer or user of the software to
act on a statement such as this when editing a wiki.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> Curt wrote:
>> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
>> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
>
> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
>> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
>> that.
>
> So how should the statement be improved ?

"should better not be used" is a bit twisted.

You could say:

 It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.

Or:
 
 It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.

Or:

 Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
 best avoided when burning to those media.

I'm learning in real time that it's easy to criticize but harder to come
up with something yourself.

;-)

>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> Dowland).

Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself.
So it is not a wiki war.


> I'm not involved in cdrkit development.

Nobody is involved there. Else i would chew off that person's ear in
the hope to get the shortcommings fixed.


Curt wrote:
> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.

Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> that.

So how should the statement be improved ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +, Curt wrote:
>>It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
>>bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
>
> For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development.

Oh.

> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> that.
>

It's of little importance one way or another, really. As is is clear. 

What was important was to restore the text, for which I thank you.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +, Curt wrote:

It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.


For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development.

I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
that.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Curt  wrote:
> On 2018-09-28, Brian  wrote:
>> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>>
>>> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
>>> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.
>>
>> Have you satisfied your curiosity?
>
> He says:
>  
>  revert StephenKeeling's edit rewording warning about wodim - see recent
>  discussion on debian-user for background, please join the discussion if
>  you disagree
>

It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.

But give 'em the moon and they want the stars I guess!


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Brian  wrote:
> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>
>> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
>> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.
>
> Have you satisfied your curiosity?

He says:
 
 revert StephenKeeling's edit rewording warning about wodim - see recent
 discussion on debian-user for background, please join the discussion if
 you disagree


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.

Have you satisfied your curiosity?

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 12:46:27PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.


I spoke to one this morning, and they're aware of this thread but very
busy, I think they intend to do something at some point, so watch this
space :-)

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-28, Brian  wrote:
> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 11:02:37 +, Curt wrote:
>
>> On 2018-09-27, Brian  wrote:
>> >
>> > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
>> 
>> The French Wiki has something like: 
>> 
>>  It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.
>> 
>> Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would
>> be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit).
>
> Elimination never happened. The only thing noticable is the French
> version hasn't been syched with the English version.

Guess I should have said absence rather than elimination. 

> Uncommented edits are not unusual; people forget to do it.
>

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

My uninformed opinion is that the edit is unwarranted and confusing. 

In fact I'd say the edit weaseled the caveat more or less out of
existence. Apparently the "some"* that "believe it would be better"
don't know about the complexity of the variables involved, nor that what
is burnt on device A isn't necessarily readable on device B (but remains
readable on device A?), the implication being they're attributing to the
software what can be ascribed to other, unrelated factors.

* Thomas Schmitt, developer of xorisso (who probably knows his
* shit), of which Keeling was well aware, of course, when he made the
* edit.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> The French Wiki has something like: 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.

It advise to stay with this for now.


> > I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

Brian wrote:
> Keep hoping.

Well, Steve McIntyre does show up here from time to time.


> Meanwhile, stand by your statement and the authority behind it

The fork of wodim from cdrecord happened because of the authoritarian
behavior of cdrecord's upstream developer.
I try to be more community oriented, especially if my own software is
involved.


> If discussion with StephenKeeling was likely to lead to a change of mind
> on your part there might be some point in waiting for this to happen.

At least i want to learn why he feels the need for pushing wodim onto
the playing field of DVD and BD burning.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 11:02:37 +, Curt wrote:

> On 2018-09-27, Brian  wrote:
> >
> > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
> 
> The French Wiki has something like: 
> 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.
> 
> Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would
> be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit).

Elimination never happened. The only thing noticable is the French
version hasn't been syched with the English version.

Uncommented edits are not unusual; people forget to do it.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 12:46:27 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Brian wrote:
> > Then revert the edit and link to this thread:
> > wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html
> > better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media.
> 
> I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

Keep hoping. Meanwhile, stand by your statement and the authority behind
it.

> ... or maybe StephenKeeling shows up ...

If discussion with StephenKeeling was likely to lead to a change of mind
on your part there might be some point in waiting for this to happen.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Curt]

On 2018-09-27, Brian  wrote:
>
> "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

The French Wiki has something like: 

 It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.

Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would
be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit).

Wodim either is or isn't as reliable as the other two apps for burning
DVD or BD media. My impression is Keeling believes the former. 

> Perhaps a rewording:
>
>  There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used
>  with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially
>  burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful
>  burn.
>

Sure. Now let's head over to the Traffic Safety Wiki to opine that
although some might posit driving down the freeway at 150 mph is
ill-advised, depending on vehicle type, road conditions, pilot skill,
weather, time of day, general visibility, state of traffic, and any
number of other factors, traveling at such speeds on such roadways can
result in a successful transfer from point A to B. 

YMMV.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Brian wrote:
> Then revert the edit and link to this thread:
> wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html
> better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media.

I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

... or maybe StephenKeeling shows up ...


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> --
> 
> The Debian BurnCd wiki page shall give tangible instructions for users,
> not discuss under what circumstances inappropriate SCSI preparations
> succeed nevertheless.
> 
> Given the history, the bug reports, and the maintainership situation,
> i still stand by the straight statement:
> 
>   wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media.
> 
> The word "better" indicates that success with wodim is not impossible.
> (I just tested. DVD+RW it does quite well. But so does "dd" too.)
> 
> If you use wodim with CD media and experience failure, then it is in
> most cases due to bad drve or medium.
> But a wodim failure with DVD or BD can mean anything.
> 
> --

Then revert the edit and link to this thread:

 wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html 
better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media.

-- 
Brian.

Re: DVD+R DL and BD media. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

deloptes wrote:
> I was trying to burn DVD+DL and had the feeling it does not do what I want
> it to do. I trashed couple of DL DVDs - each costs ~3€.

Yes. I too experienced that DVD+R DL are the most early type to fail
on an ageing drive. I still have half a spindle of them, but only
for the purpose of testing media recognition.
(3 EUR as price is quite a while ago. Now you get them for less than 1 EUR.)


To our luck, BD burners became achievable (~ 80 EUR + possibly USB box)
and single layer BD-R media became cheaper than DVD+R DL. My last buy
of 10 pieces on spindle was
  Verbatim BD-RE 25 GB  10.33
  Primeon BD-RE 25 GB7.60
  Verbatim BD-R 25 GB5.92
  Primeon BD-R 25 GB 5.20

My oldest BD burner is picky with BD-RE and likes both brands.
My youngest BD burner likes both brands of BD-R and BD-RE.
I cannot get first generation "2x" BD-R for the old one any more.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[deloptes]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Nevertheless, i plan to defend my version duely, unless a wodim maintainer
> shows up and promises to take care of the bugs and code shortcommings.
> I would be willing to help.

Thanks, I suspected something wrong with DVD writing for a long time
already. Your post tells me I was not wrong.
I was trying to burn DVD+DL and had the feeling it does not do what I want
it to do. I trashed couple of DL DVDs - each costs ~3€.

regards

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Brian proposed:
>  There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used
>  with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially
>  burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful
>  burn.

There are not that many variables:

Drive type: burner/reader of CD, DVD, BD media.
Medium type: DVD-R, DVD-R DL, DVD+R, DVD+R DL DVD+RW, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM,
 BD-R, BD-RE (other than with DVD, the multi-layer BD media
 do not differ in behavior from the single-layer BD media)
Medium write state: blank, appendable, closed.
Medium formatting state: DVD-RW and BD-R have more than one personality.

A burn program should know them and be able to handle their possible
combinations. That's what wodim fails to do with DVD and BD.

Erratic variables are the health of computer, drive, and medium.
(Error key B often indicates power supply or bus problems.
 OPC errors or write errors often indicate problems of the drive and/or
 of the medium.)


Richard Hector proposed:
> "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not
> meet the relevant specifications."

It is not so much about the results. If the drive is healthy and does not
barf on wodim's commands, then a healthy medium gets written readable data.

It is about wodim's cluelessness about DVD and the lack of maintainership.

Be it about error replies from the drive
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=609763
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=651847
  (Did not recognize Descriptor format sense code. The reported error is
   B,0,0 (= abort message, actually from kernel) not 0,0,3 (=nonsense).)

Be it about single-session DVD+R
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=386640

Be it about multi-session on DVD+R
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=641147

Be it about double-layer features
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/linuxmint/+bug/1094796

Be it about media types more modern than wodim's last change
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=782429

Not to forget the wonderful bit rot (not DVD specific)
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=679839
  (One would just have to let it scan /dev/sr* rather than /dev/scd*.)

Who advises wodim for DVD or BD should also care for these bug reports.

--

The Debian BurnCd wiki page shall give tangible instructions for users,
not discuss under what circumstances inappropriate SCSI preparations
succeed nevertheless.

Given the history, the bug reports, and the maintainership situation,
i still stand by the straight statement:

  wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media.

The word "better" indicates that success with wodim is not impossible.
(I just tested. DVD+RW it does quite well. But so does "dd" too.)

If you use wodim with CD media and experience failure, then it is in
most cases due to bad drve or medium.
But a wodim failure with DVD or BD can mean anything.

--

Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.

Nevertheless, i plan to defend my version duely, unless a wodim maintainer
shows up and promises to take care of the bugs and code shortcommings.
I would be willing to help.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:00:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.


That would be reason enough to avoid wodim IMHO... but it would also
suggest that wodim should not be in the archive either. The binary
package name wodim is currently provided by the src package cdrkit. Is
that abandoned? (I'm asking this elsewhere, too)

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Richard Hector]

On 28/09/18 8:00 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
>> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
>> of wodim, and when not to use it.
> 
> Let me try ... hrr-umm ... 
> 
> wodim was cloned from cdrecord in 2006. At that time, cdrecord had few
> clue about DVD burning and hid this behind a 1 GB size limit of the
> free program version. The full size version was not available at all.
> wodim got implanted DVD-related code from an earlier cdrecord clone
> which hacked around the size limitation.
> 
> But still wodim is handling any DVD as if it was a large CD-R.
> This works halfways with DVD-R and, depending the medium state, with
> other media after due rejection of inappropriate SCSI commands by the
> drive.
> But it is awful, specs-wise !
> 
> wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
> and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.
> 
> In contrast to that, the doings of dvd+rw-tools (growisofs) and of libburn
> can be justified by the MMC-5 specs. In case of libburn there is even an
> active upstream developer (myself).
> 
> -
> 
> But who wants to read about 12 year old quarrels between Debian Developers
> and the upstream developer of cdrecord ?
> 
> My way to express the current technical situation was the statement:
> 
>   "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
> 
> which now became
> 
>   "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD
>media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most
>especially burner types and condition, and media quality.
>'''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''"
> 
> It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm).
> 
> And yes, there are ill burners and media which produce poorly readble
> results. But this is _not_ normal. If hardware behaves that way, then
> it is to blame, and not the burn program.
> (Even wodims's failures are repeatable.)

How about something like:

"wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not
meet the relevant specifications."

or perhaps s/work/appear to work/

Note: I have no expertise in this area; I'm merely interpreting the
comments above.

Richard



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Brian]

On Thu 27 Sep 2018 at 12:07:02 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:59:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Alternatively:
> > - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
> >   to other editors why a particular change was undone ?
> 
> The "Comment" box on the edit page is the obvious place to state your
> reason for reverting someone else's change.  If you need more space than

The "Comment" box is probably the only option. Neither StephenKeeling
nor ThomasSchmitt are contactable by email from the "Info" section. But
a complete reversion of the addition isn't necessarily the way to go.
(See below).

> the wiki revision comment box provides (I don't know how many characters
> that is in moinmoin off hand, but I think it's a few hundred), then it
> becomes more of an issue.  Moinmoin doesn't maintain a parallel "Talk"
> page namespace.  You can put your explanation directly onto the page
> itself, if you think it will be of general interest.

I've seen this done; I do not think wiki pages on technical topics are
the place for advocacy. 

> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
> of wodim, and when not to use it.  As well as the other tools, if they
> have important restrictions and limits.

Agreed.

"wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

Perhaps a rewording:

 There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used
 with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially
 burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful
 burn.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
> of wodim, and when not to use it.

Let me try ... hrr-umm ... 

wodim was cloned from cdrecord in 2006. At that time, cdrecord had few
clue about DVD burning and hid this behind a 1 GB size limit of the
free program version. The full size version was not available at all.
wodim got implanted DVD-related code from an earlier cdrecord clone
which hacked around the size limitation.

But still wodim is handling any DVD as if it was a large CD-R.
This works halfways with DVD-R and, depending the medium state, with
other media after due rejection of inappropriate SCSI commands by the
drive.
But it is awful, specs-wise !

wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.

In contrast to that, the doings of dvd+rw-tools (growisofs) and of libburn
can be justified by the MMC-5 specs. In case of libburn there is even an
active upstream developer (myself).

-

But who wants to read about 12 year old quarrels between Debian Developers
and the upstream developer of cdrecord ?

My way to express the current technical situation was the statement:

  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

which now became

  "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD
   media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most
   especially burner types and condition, and media quality.
   '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''"

It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm).

And yes, there are ill burners and media which produce poorly readble
results. But this is _not_ normal. If hardware behaves that way, then
it is to blame, and not the burn program.
(Even wodims's failures are repeatable.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:59:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Alternatively:
> - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
>   to other editors why a particular change was undone ?

The "Comment" box on the edit page is the obvious place to state your
reason for reverting someone else's change.  If you need more space than
the wiki revision comment box provides (I don't know how many characters
that is in moinmoin off hand, but I think it's a few hundred), then it
becomes more of an issue.  Moinmoin doesn't maintain a parallel "Talk"
page namespace.  You can put your explanation directly onto the page
itself, if you think it will be of general interest.

In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
of wodim, and when not to use it.  As well as the other tools, if they
have important restrictions and limits.

How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

is perhaps the Debian wiki user StephenKeeling subscribed here ?
We need to discuss the recent wiki change
  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff=30=31

Alternatively:
- Does the wiki have means to contact a particular Debian wiki user ?
- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
  to other editors why a particular change was undone ?

If Steve McIntyre or Joerg Jaspert, the DDs involved with wodim, are
reading this: Could you please confirm this statement of mine ?
  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: dpkg-scanpackages instructions on the Debian wiki

[Sven Joachim]

On 2018-05-15 16:12 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> It seems that the dpkg-scanpackages instructions on the Debian wiki
> are wrong. In the generated Packages file, for libltdl7, I get only:
>
> Package: libltdl7
> Source: libtool
> Version: 2.4.6-2.1+local2
> Architecture: i386
> Maintainer: Kurt Roeckx <k...@roeckx.be>
> Installed-Size: 417
> Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14)
> Filename: ./libltdl7_2.4.6-2.1+local2_i386.deb
> [...]
>
> while I have both:
>
>   libltdl7_2.4.6-2.1+local2_amd64.deb
>   libltdl7_2.4.6-2.1+local2_i386.deb
>
> and I need both to satisfy dependencies (due to the bloated
> libwine:i386).
>
> Indeed the dpkg-scanpackages(1) man page says:
>
>   If  more  than one version of a package is found only the newest one is
>   included in the output. If they have the same version and  only  differ
>   in architecture only the first one found is used.

That sentence, and most of the dpkg-scanpackages script, was written
before multiarch, and apparently nobody bothered to add multiarch
support to dpkg-scanpackages.

> I assume that one needs a specific directory for each foreign
> architecture.

Either that, or use apt-ftparchive to generate the Packages file.  Works
for me. :-)

Cheers,
   Sven

dpkg-scanpackages instructions on the Debian wiki

[Vincent Lefevre]

It seems that the dpkg-scanpackages instructions on the Debian wiki
are wrong. In the generated Packages file, for libltdl7, I get only:

Package: libltdl7
Source: libtool
Version: 2.4.6-2.1+local2
Architecture: i386
Maintainer: Kurt Roeckx <k...@roeckx.be>
Installed-Size: 417
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14)
Filename: ./libltdl7_2.4.6-2.1+local2_i386.deb
[...]

while I have both:

  libltdl7_2.4.6-2.1+local2_amd64.deb
  libltdl7_2.4.6-2.1+local2_i386.deb

and I need both to satisfy dependencies (due to the bloated
libwine:i386).

Indeed the dpkg-scanpackages(1) man page says:

  If  more  than one version of a package is found only the newest one is
  included in the output. If they have the same version and  only  differ
  in architecture only the first one found is used.

I assume that one needs a specific directory for each foreign
architecture.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre <vinc...@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: debian wiki

[Fungi4All]

> From: to...@tuxteam.de
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 08:57:35AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>> On Mon 10 Jul 2017 at 13:32:00 (+), Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
>> > On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
>> > >So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
>> > >the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
>> > >intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
>> > >
>> > >Does this correspond with your findings?
>> >
>> > That"s also what happens here.
>>
>> … which is as I would expect it.
>>
>> However, I"m only _guessing_ that these pages are active in some way,
> You mean... server-side active, I guess.
> [...]
>> I haven"t seen an actual problem expressed by anyone about what is
>> displayed. Is there one, other than a casual observation?
> Not a real problem. Just a behaviour that confused the original
> poster (I think it was Fungi4All): if your browser lang is "X"
> and you click on the page"s link for lang "Y" and you get a top
> menu in "Xish" and a content in "Yish". The link provided by (was
> it Brian?) in this thread seems to indicate that this confusion
> happens more than once.
> For people who don"t know the browser has a language preferences
> setting (and perhaps have no idea about all that HTTP content
> negotiation stuff), that might be a bit... surprising, leading
> some to guess that there is an IP-based shenanigan behind the
> scenes.
> The confused are hardly to be blamed, given the tendency of
> late to keep users as stupid as possible :-/
> Regards
> - -- tomás

I, the OP, have no abilities in German of French, nor do I have these
languages in my browser. I noticed that the wiki, while it was displaying
the default Englsh text, the menus were on a 4th language. Upon the
suggestion to disable scripts, I used my trusty secure browser with a French IP
and tried. When I selected French just for testing, the menus remained
English. When I selected German it was all German, to me. The more
languages you select the funkier and more inconsistent the results were.
In some languages you may click a link and revert back to English, possibly
because of the page being in another english default server.
No matter what is at fault the wiki server results are inconsistent.

Re: debian wiki

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 08:57:35AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 10 Jul 2017 at 13:32:00 (+), Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
> > >So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
> > >the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
> > >intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
> > >
> > >Does this correspond with your findings?
> > 
> > That's also what happens here.
> 
> … which is as I would expect it.
> 
> However, I'm only _guessing_ that these pages are active in some way,

You mean... server-side active, I guess.

[...]

> I haven't seen an actual problem expressed by anyone about what is
> displayed. Is there one, other than a casual observation?

Not a real problem. Just a behaviour that confused the original
poster (I think it was Fungi4All): if  your browser lang is "X"
and you click on the page's link for lang "Y" and you get a top
menu in "Xish" and a content in "Yish". The link provided by (was
it Brian?) in this thread seems to indicate that this confusion
happens more than once.

For people who don't know the browser has a language preferences
setting (and perhaps have no idea about all that HTTP content
negotiation stuff), that might be a bit... surprising, leading
some to guess that there is an IP-based shenanigan behind the
scenes.

The confused are hardly to be blamed, given the tendency of
late to keep users as stupid as possible :-/

Regards
- -- tomás
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LFEAnA+NO2m1PBiDaSbqKmGdX40zQOEr
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Re: debian wiki

[David Wright]

On Mon 10 Jul 2017 at 13:32:00 (+), Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
> >So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
> >the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
> >intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
> >
> >Does this correspond with your findings?
> 
> That's also what happens here.

… which is as I would expect it.

However, I'm only _guessing_ that these pages are active in some way,
and that that activity generates the menus at the top. If so, then the
language to use for that activity is English, as set in preferences.
One would also expect the activity itself (rather than the language
it is expressed in) to be the same in all the languages supported.

The contents of the page in each language might be quite different.
The translators might modify cultural and language references in ways
that they feel are appropriate for their readers. Those sorts of
differences wouldn't be expected in the menu generation.

I haven't seen an actual problem expressed by anyone about what is
displayed. Is there one, other than a casual observation?

Cheers,
David.

Re: debian wiki

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:

So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.

Does this correspond with your findings?


That's also what happens here.

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: debian wiki

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 07:19:24PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 09 Jul 2017 at 17:32:29 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps that's something to communicate to the debian-www administrators,
> > as detailed in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#content-admins
> > or in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#wiki-sys-admins, not
> > sure which (I'd try content-admins first).
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2017/07/msg00019.html

Thanks, that clears the IP thing (we came to the same conclusion here),
the inconsistency in the top menu (browser  language setting vs. URL)
still remains.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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=ojWi
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Re: debian wiki

[Brian]

On Sun 09 Jul 2017 at 17:32:29 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Perhaps that's something to communicate to the debian-www administrators,
> as detailed in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#content-admins
> or in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#wiki-sys-admins, not
> sure which (I'd try content-admins first).

https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2017/07/msg00019.html

Re: debian wiki

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 10:55:06AM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
> > From: to...@tuxteam.de

[...]

> > @Fungi4All: if you are interested in constructive discussions and not
> > just in ranting off, please describe what you are seeing, at least
> > with an URL for people to try to reproduce what you are seeing.

Hm. Was a bit confrontative, sorry for that.

> I thought I did, wiki.debian.org but here is a specific one 
> https://wiki.debian.org/fr/QuickInstall
> Is the top menu in English or French. On my instance the content was english 
> but the menus were not

Hm. There seem to be two levels:

 - the wiki URL: if I choose https://wiki.debian.org/fr/QuickInstall
   and my (browser) language preference is set to English, I get the
   French wiki content with an English top menu.

 - the lang preference: if I set my (browser) language preference
   to french, I can aim directly at https://wiki.debian.org/QuickInstall
   and get the French wiki content and a French top menu.

So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.

Does this correspond with your findings?

Perhaps that's something to communicate to the debian-www administrators,
as detailed in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#content-admins
or in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#wiki-sys-admins, not
sure which (I'd try content-admins first).

Cheers
- -- tomás
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HrMAniNIzzurtbazhmwz0QbsYD2wCI6x
=eAiA
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Re: debian wiki

[Fungi4All]

> From: to...@tuxteam.de
>> It"s probably based not on your IP, but on headers sent by your browser
>> (Accept-Language or something like that). There should be somewhere in
>> the settings where you can change that. At least on Firefox there is.
> I can confirm that (tested on https://wiki.debian.org). Depending on
> the language preferences set on my browser (en resp. fr), I stay on
> the default, English or get redirected to the French version, /fr/.

It is not consistent though, with scripts-off if you pick french from the main
page the content will become french but the top menus stay EN. If you
pick a link (installation rapide) the headers stay in EN. If you try the same
with DE then all of it is German. This is with a French IP. So it is not the IP
but some language cookie that throws it off? I guess if you use a lesser
browser than mozilla weird things happen, I accept that the IP speculation
was unsubstantiated.
But the inconsistency remains.

> So I don"t see any IP based language choice on wiki.debian.org, just
> one based on HTTP content negotiation (and thus on client choice), as
> it Should Be (TM).

> DISCLAIMER: I only tested without Javascript. I (mostly) browse with
> Javascript disabled.
> @Fungi4All: if you are interested in constructive discussions and not
> just in ranting off, please describe what you are seeing, at least
> with an URL for people to try to reproduce what you are seeing.

I thought I did, wiki.debian.org but here is a specific one 
https://wiki.debian.org/fr/QuickInstall
Is the top menu in English or French. On my instance the content was english 
but the menus were not

Re: debian wiki

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:18:25PM -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On 8 de julho de 2017 17:16, Fungi4All wrote:
> > I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the 
> > language of
> > the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is nowhere used on
> > this pc.  But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse the choice?  Even though
> > I choose english the drop boxes and menus are an another language based
> > on IP.  This makes life hard for traveling users.
> 
> It's probably based not on your IP, but on headers sent by your browser
> (Accept-Language or something like that). There should be somewhere in
> the settings where you can change that. At least on Firefox there is. 

I can confirm that (tested on https://wiki.debian.org). Depending on
the language preferences set on my browser (en resp. fr), I stay on
the default, English or get redirected to the French version, /fr/.

So I don't see any IP based language choice on wiki.debian.org, just
one based on HTTP content negotiation (and thus on client choice), as
it Should Be (TM).

DISCLAIMER: I only tested without Javascript. I (mostly) browse with
Javascript disabled.

@Fungi4All: if you are interested in constructive discussions and not
just in ranting off, please describe what you are seeing, at least
with an URL for people to try to reproduce what you are seeing.

Regards
- -- tomás
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAllh+TsACgkQBcgs9XrR2kalrQCcCEgBkzpBp4nGK0yoNF1SJpXi
9OwAnRMr3KTj3hRgKjjJy0AQtGTCyCdO
=Lm6B
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: debian wiki

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 8 de julho de 2017 17:16, Fungi4All wrote:
> I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the language 
> of
> the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is nowhere used on
> this pc.  But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse the choice?  Even though
> I choose english the drop boxes and menus are an another language based
> on IP.  This makes life hard for traveling users.

It's probably based not on your IP, but on headers sent by your browser 
(Accept-Language or something like that). There should be somewhere in the 
settings where you can change that. At least on Firefox there is. 

Re: debian wiki

[davidson]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2017, Fungi4All wrote:


I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the
language of the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is
nowhere used on this pc. But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse
the choice? Even though I choose english the drop boxes and menus
are an another language based on IP. This makes life hard for
traveling users.


I suspect this concern of yours could be more fruitfully discussed on
the debian-www mailing list:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/

| Web pages design and maintenance
|
|Design, structure and translation of Debian web pages. All
|important changes to the web site are announced here as well.
|
|This list is not moderated; posting is allowed by anyone.
|
|Posting address: debian-...@lists.debian.org

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%% https://wikileaks.org/Assange-statement-on-the.html

debian wiki

[Fungi4All]

I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the language of
the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is nowhere used on
this pc. But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse the choice? Even though
I choose english the drop boxes and menus are an another language based
on IP. This makes life hard for traveling users.

Suggested Change for Debian Wiki, Simple backport creation

[T.J. Duchene]

I'd like to suggest a change to the "Simple Backport" wikipage at

https://wiki.debian.org/SimpleBackportCreation


The page suggests using: dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc.

I've found that backporting from unstable goes much more smoothly if
you use: debuild -us -uc instead.  The package scripts seem to behave
better.

I'm not "super experienced" in this sort of thing, so if there is a
better way, by all means, please mention it.  Ideally, I imagine that we
would want everyone using the same packaging process, regardless of
personal experience - fewer mistakes and so on.


Thanks!
T.J.

Debian WIKI Forbidden for my VPN

[Ivan Jurišić]

Hello to all, 

today I try to open Debian wiki page https://wiki.debian.org/ but I got error:

Forbidden
You are not allowed to access this!

But when shutdown VPN connection I can to access on debian wiki page. I check 
on my VPN provider and from VPN side I don't have any limitation.

Any help about this problem?


Regards,
Ivan Jurišić


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Re: Debian WIKI Forbidden for my VPN

[Steve McIntyre]

Ivan wrote:
Hello to all, 

today I try to open Debian wiki page https://wiki.debian.org/ but I got error:

Forbidden
You are not allowed to access this!

But when shutdown VPN connection I can to access on debian wiki page. I check 
on my VPN provider and from VPN side I don't have any limitation.

Any help about this problem?

Hi Ivan,

If you have specific problems with wiki access, then the debian-www
list is a better place to ask.

However, I can say that lots of VPN providers are currently blocked
from accessing the wiki due to spam problems.

-- 
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nDebian wiki admin - wiki.debian.org


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Dead link on the debian wiki

[nmon]

Hello


Pour info et dépannage,

la page  https://wiki.debian.org/fr/SourcesList

propose un lien (mort) en bas de page vers 

   Plus d'informations

  Page sources.list(5) du manuel 

   http://manpages.debian.net/man/5/sources.list

   or ce lien est inactif

Cette page 5 du manuel est elle accessible ailleurs via un autre lien ?

D'avance, merci


Natali

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Re: Dead link on the debian wiki

[Jacques Lav!gnotte.]

Le 22/10/2013 15:50, n...@free.fr a écrit :
 Hello

Hello aussi,

 Cette page 5 du manuel est elle accessible ailleurs via un autre lien ?

Sur ta machine, dans un terminal :

man 5 sources.list

 Natali

J.

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Debian Wiki account creation frozen?

[Nate Bargmann]

Does anyone know if the Debian Wiki is accepting new accounts?  I've
tried to create an account with no apparent success:

Account creation failed: Error 913: please contact
debian-...@lists.debian.org for help if this continues.

If there is no known freeze on new accounts, I'll contact the debian-www
list as advised.

- Nate

-- 

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possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

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Re: Debian Wiki account creation frozen?

[Bob Proulx]

Nate Bargmann wrote:
 Does anyone know if the Debian Wiki is accepting new accounts?  I've
 tried to create an account with no apparent success:
 
 Account creation failed: Error 913: please contact
 debian-...@lists.debian.org for help if this continues.
 
 If there is no known freeze on new accounts, I'll contact the debian-www
 list as advised.

Recently there was a security breach of the wiki system.  It should be
resolved now. It is likely that there is still some lingering problem.
I would contact the debian-www list as advised.

Here are the references:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/01/msg0.html

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/01/msg2.html

Bob


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Re: Debian Wiki account creation frozen?

[Nate Bargmann]

I was contacted by one of the admins in response to this message and it
seems I got caught as a false positive in the new trap.  He put me on
the whitelist and my account is created and running.

- Nate

-- 

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possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

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Re: Debian Wiki

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 14 ian 13, 05:19:15, Dick Thomas wrote:
 Hello,
 
 are there any limits on what can be added to the wiki?
 I'm asking as there are so many things on the arch wiki I've fixed
 to work on debian
 that I feel I should post somewhere

I'm guessing it should be related to Debian.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian Wiki

[Richard Owlett]

Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 14 ian 13, 05:19:15, Dick Thomas wrote:

Hello,

are there any limits on what can be added to the wiki?
I'm asking as there are so many things on the arch wiki I've fixed
to work on debian
that I feel I should post somewhere


I'm guessing it should be related to Debian.

Kind regards,
Andrei



I'll flip the OP's question around. Is there a more 
appropriate place than http://wiki.debian.org/ certain types 
of information of long term interest?


As a personal example, I'm collating information I've 
received from this list (and others) that would be useful to 
Linux newbies and/or those wishing for a small install on 
a isolated system without networking. I visualize something 
similar some pages on the Tcl/Tk Wiki such as 
http://wiki.tcl.tk/1961 {a random page accessed for the 
first time this morning}. Key features to note are its 
brevity and contributions span a decade and several authors.




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Re: Debian Wiki

[green]

Dick Thomas wrote at 2013-01-13 23:19 -0600:
 are there any limits on what can be added to the wiki?
 I'm asking as there are so many things on the arch wiki I've fixed
 to work on debian
 that I feel I should post somewhere

That would be great; I suppose that if (1) it is Debian related (like you 
said, fixed to work on Debian) and (2) you can find a place for it on the 
wiki, then post it!


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Re: Debian Wiki

[Dick Thomas]

On 14 January 2013 15:47, green greenfreedo...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dick Thomas wrote at 2013-01-13 23:19 -0600:
 are there any limits on what can be added to the wiki?
 I'm asking as there are so many things on the arch wiki I've fixed
 to work on debian
 that I feel I should post somewhere

 That would be great; I suppose that if (1) it is Debian related (like you
 said, fixed to work on Debian) and (2) you can find a place for it on the
 wiki, then post it!

I've had bad experiences on the Gentoo wiki with people flaming and
deleting pages
so i wanted to make sure what was acceptable as the Debian wiki is a
little sparse when comapared to others

-- 
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Re: Debian Wiki

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 14 ian 13, 17:08:30, Dick Thomas wrote:
 
 I've had bad experiences on the Gentoo wiki with people flaming and
 deleting pages
 so i wanted to make sure what was acceptable as the Debian wiki is a
 little sparse when comapared to others

If in doubt you could ask on debian-www, but with a bit more 
informations. E.g. you could put something on your personal wiki page 
and ask if it would be acceptable.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Debian Wiki

[Dick Thomas]

Hello,

are there any limits on what can be added to the wiki?
I'm asking as there are so many things on the arch wiki I've fixed
to work on debian
that I feel I should post somewhere

Dick Thomas

-- 
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G+:   www.google.com/profiles/xpd259


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Re: Security breach on the Debian wiki 2012-07-25

[mouss]

Le 07/01/2013 05:07, Bzzz a écrit :
 On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 23:33:31 -0400
 David Prévot taf...@debian.org wrote:

 Assomption incorrecte.

 Le 06/01/2013 22:42, Luca Filipozzi a écrit :
 moin 1.9.x uses SSHA (salted SHA1):

 http://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2.0/SecurePasswordStorage
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2013/01/msg00030.html
 C'est pas beaucoup mieux, SHA-1 s'est aussi fait
 péter la rondelle depuis un moment.


les recommandations actuelles sont SHA256 et SHA512. et ce dernier étant
plus rapide sur archi 64 bits, je ne vois pas de raison de faire un
autre choix.
(oui, y a désormais SHA-3, mais on va attendre!).

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Security breach on the Debian wiki 2012-07-25

[Alain Vaugham]

Bonjour la liste,

En résumé, le fichier contenant les mots de passe des utilisateurs du
wiki Debian a été volé. Il leur est conseillé d'agir en conséquence.
Les détails sont ici :
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/SecurityIncident2012

Partout il est indiqué qu'un mot de passe _solide_ doit faire au moins
8 caractères, si ce n'est pas 12, comporter des chiffres, des
majuscules, des minuscules plus d'autres caractères que l'on peut
choisir parmi la bonne trentaine qui sont disponibles sur nos claviers
azerty dont les caractères de ponctuation... et changer ce mot de passe
tous les trois mois.

Donc si les mots de passe sont _solides_, ça laisse combien de temps
de tranquillité par rapport aux techniques de craquage actuelles
qui vont sûrement être utilisées pour faire parler ce fichier volé?
Exprimé différemment : avec les techniques actuelles, est-ce qu'il faut
moins de trois mois pour casser le hashé d'un mot de passe _solide_?

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Clef GPG : 0xD26D18BC

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Re: Security breach on the Debian wiki 2012-07-25

[Bzzz]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 02:54:15 +0100
Alain Vaugham al...@vaugham.com wrote:

 
 Donc si les mots de passe sont _solides_, ça laisse combien de temps
 de tranquillité par rapport aux techniques de craquage actuelles
 qui vont sûrement être utilisées pour faire parler ce fichier volé?
 Exprimé différemment : avec les techniques actuelles, est-ce qu'il faut
 moins de trois mois pour casser le hashé d'un mot de passe _solide_?

Sans doute que les p/w ont des hashes MD5 et pas SHA-128 ou plus.

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Re: Security breach on the Debian wiki 2012-07-25

[David Prévot]

Salut,

Le 06/01/2013 22:02, Bzzz a écrit :
 Sans doute que les p/w ont des hashes MD5 et pas SHA-128 ou plus.

Assomption incorrecte.

Le 06/01/2013 22:42, Luca Filipozzi a écrit :
 moin 1.9.x uses SSHA (salted SHA1):

 http://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2.0/SecurePasswordStorage

http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2013/01/msg00030.html

Amicalement

David




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Re: Security breach on the Debian wiki 2012-07-25

[Bzzz]

On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 23:33:31 -0400
David Prévot taf...@debian.org wrote:

 
 Assomption incorrecte.
 
 Le 06/01/2013 22:42, Luca Filipozzi a écrit :
  moin 1.9.x uses SSHA (salted SHA1):
 
  http://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2.0/SecurePasswordStorage
 
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2013/01/msg00030.html

C'est pas beaucoup mieux, SHA-1 s'est aussi fait
péter la rondelle depuis un moment.

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Smartphone Debian Wiki page - 1st info up

[giovanni_re]

Please have a look:

http://wiki.debian.org/Smartphone


==
Thanks to the many people who contributed thoughts, suggestions, URLs, 
potential names for this subdistro, replying to my Distro start thread
from last monday:
Subject:  Android Debian - Lets start Debian for Android hw phones


Special thanks to 
On Wednesday 23 March 2011 00:45:26 Nate Bargmann wrote:
 Phony Debian?

That inspired me to think that the best name would be Smartphone
Debian.

:)

==
Contributing to Smartphone Debian wiki page:

Please add some useful content.

Especially if you were one of the people who contributed suggestions in
that last thread.  There's some great info there: let's get it into the
wiki,  keep moving forward.  :)

==  Join in the Global weekly meetings, via voice, about all Free SW HW  
Culture
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/


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