Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
I also agree think we should stick with a single list. Though I still ask more questions than I am able to completely answer, I do often at least attempt an answer and sometimes can give fairly helpful responses. In addition to the we-were-all-newbies-once argument I would like to point out that it can take a quite a bit of work to really learn your way around Debian/linux in general. It is expected (or was until the inception of Debian and similar systems) that the average member of the community can compile code on their own, spot problems (especially common ones), deal with the fact that few companies provide drivers for linux, etc. Certainly more than must be done under Win95. Traditionally, much of this information has been handed along personally in academic or occupational environments, but many modern user don't have these avenues open to them. On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, smorrill wrote: Here, Here!! I for one would ask that we not divide the list I picked Debian as my first try with Linux after looking at all the distributions. I probably jumped in over my head (as you can tell from the questions I post... :-) everything I read said Debian was not the best choice for a newbie to start with. I have always been impressed with the amount of support for Debian, and for that reason, this is the path I took. I would hope someday to be in the position to pass it on and help others out. Sometimes when I'm going over the list I find answers to other questions that I had, somebody else just happened to ask them before I did! I always manage to learn something here, even reading the more advanced stuff... If I ever get my act together, maybe someday I'll even try to take on the maintenance of a Debian package... -- Steve Morrill Reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Pub key id: 0xF2459FCD Debian LINUX Where I really want to go today! -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, John Spence wrote: I like the list the way it is aswell! :) Yes, I do to. AOL mode me too /AOL mode Although I would dearly love to see a: When is version 2 coming out-list When is version 2 coming out will not be announced in advance, I'm afraid. At one point in time it will have been released and then everybody will know about it. How to move from libc5 to libc6-list There is a mini-HOWTO on this subject that is posted regularly to this mailing list. I don't know the URL, but I am sure it can be found on the WWW somewhere. Both lists could be answered by a bot that posted the usual reply. I don't think it would work, since subscribing and unsubscribing to mailinglists like that would be too much trouble if you can just lurk debian-user for a while and get the answer. And you still would have to post a message to debian-user regularly to let people know they exist. I do think that a lot of general Linux questions that aren't particularly Debian specific are posted here but that is only because in my opinion, the quality of the answers provided is higher than can be found in newsgroups. Yes, the Debian community is very fortunate to have such high-quality mailing lists. Remco -- If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kick-boxing -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
Remco Blaakmeer wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, John Spence wrote: I like the list the way it is aswell! :) Sometimes I do and sometimes not. I'm sure it is possible to parse the subject line at the list server or the client end for keywords like config or compile etc. and forward them to either an advanced list/mailbox or basic list/mailbox. Ask that users put the appropriate keyword in the subject and return a message with keywords if there isn't a recognisable keyword in the subject. Then ppl could subscribe to one or both lists and only the appropriate messages will go to the specific list, or as close as possible. I have been on this list for 2 years or so now and noticed that this subject comes up like once a month. The answer that most other long-time list subscribers seem to give is that the more experienced users would drop the basic list and leave a bunch of newbies answering eachothers questions. I don't think so. Some of the guru's enjoy helping others. The ones that don't are most likely not subscribed to this list anyway. Some don't consider themselves that experienced and will remain subscribed to basic out of modesty, even though they are more than experienced enough to help the beginners. So, I think the best way to split the list (if it happens) is to have a single address to send to with 2 (or more basic/interm/advanced etc.) outgoing lists from the list server after parsing the subject line. There would be no more email than there is now since the server would parse the email and newbies could subscribe to all the lists if they want to get the scoop on more advanced topics. Additionally, MAYBE! the server could watch for the same subject from the same user x times and upgrade the message to the next evel since it doesn't seem to be answered in the current level. This is probably too much trouble to accomplish acurately for anybody to want to fool with, but it's a thought. Yes, I do to. I do think that a lot of general Linux questions that aren't particularly Debian specific are posted here but that is only because in my opinion, the quality of the answers provided is higher than can be found in newsgroups. Yes, the Debian community is very fortunate to have such high-quality mailing lists. I agree 100%. I've been on the internet for about 4 years, I guess, and I think this is absolutely the best bunch of folks on the internet. There's some cock-fighting, posturing, bitching and flaming from some of us at times, but this list is still the best there is. Have a good one. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
On 15 Jan, Remco Blaakmeer wrote: When is version 2 coming out will not be announced in advance, I'm afraid. At one point in time it will have been released and then everybody will know about it. well, it is true, but not _really_ 100% exact. From 4 to 6 weeks before 2.0 release, unstable will be renamed frozen, developement will stop and wide and definitive testing will start. This event will be announced widely (it happened for 1.3) suggesting users to download and install frozen, to contribute to the testing. Therefore, looking carefully inside my cristal ball, I dare to say that you'll be announced of the imminent release one month before. So the question is: when unstable will be frozen? The answer is: when all the goals for hamm will be achieved (or marked for failed :-). There is a list of goals that used to be posted untill last fall. I think that it is now actively maintained again, and maybe you'll see it in the future. How to move from libc5 to libc6-list There is a mini-HOWTO on this subject that is posted regularly to this mailing list. I don't know the URL, but I am sure it can be found on the WWW somewhere. http://www.gate.net/~storm/FAQ/libc5-libc6-Mini-HOWTO.html http://www.debian.org/devel/libc5-libc6-Mini-HOWTO.html ftp://ftp.debian.org/pub/debian/doc/libc5-libc6-Mini-HOWTO.html.tar.gz A script to do automatically the move is under test. I think it will be available soon. Fabrizio -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] | Pluto Leader - Debian Developer Happy Debian 1.3.1 User - vi-holic | 6F7267F5 fingerprint 57 16 C4 ED C9 86 40 7B 1A 69 A1 66 EC FB D2 5E more than 35 months are needed to get rid of the millennium. [me] If NT is your answer, means you didn't understand the question.[som1] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
I like the list the way it is aswell! :) I have found many of the questions posted by other users helping me out, and if the list was split, who would answer the newbies questions, other newbies?? - that would be a bit like the blind leading the blind. The list benefits from allowing all to post any debian / linux questions, although if the level of newbie questions puts people off, perhaps they would like to write something like a complete begginer guide to linux the debian way. Something like a walk through of exercises, starting from buying the CD,basic commands leading up to having a basic but functioning x win system. I looked at all of the linux dists. before picking debian, and my decision was influenced by the level of support, although as i later found there is a distinct lack of 'absoloute begginer' help. Which if by the time i get there (long way off!) still isnt in exestance may attempt myself. Everybody has to start somewhere, even if they do need a little help finding there feet. About the bandwidth, i takes me 3 mins (tops) to dl a whole days posts including all of my other mail. (33.6 connection), so that is definatly not a problem, and for those who bandwith is a factor, there is always newsgroups. (also i live in the UK and have to pay for phone bill, as to online charges find a new isp - even AOL(uugghh) now do a unlimited access package) Rick Email - [EMAIL PROTECTED] homepage - http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/kitty5/ (Raytracing, 3D Animation and Emulation) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 11:13:25AM +0100, Irmund Thum wrote: Shouln't it be possible to divide the list in beginners and advanced? This is not so easy to do. Presumably, if you divide the list there would need to be some criteria defining appropriate posts for each level. How would you suggest placing the line ? What is a beginner question and what is an advanced question ? I am active with my local Linux User Group. This issue has come up in discussions we have had about certain events, and, indeed, about our own mailing list. We have found that a distinction between newbie and pro is impossible define. Of course there are those who are absolute wet behind the ears, green as grass beginners, but this status starts to become fuzzy after a very short period of time. At the other end of the spectrum are the experts. The status of an expert, while clear to those you know them, is still not as easy to define as that of an absolute newborn beginner. These are unquestionably people who know what they are talking about -- systems analysts who design linux systems, system admins, and analyst programmers. However, they don't know everything (as no one can) and occasionaly ask questions with a beginner flavour. I have yet to hear one ask a completely wet-eared green-grass beginner question, but the systems people might need help with a compile or library problem, or a programmer might need help with configuring some package she can't get to run properly. And it is not necessarily the bearded loin-clothed sage who will give them the answer they need, but a member of the writhing masses in between. Clearly, I believe, we benefit from hanging around together. I don't know which group I would place myself in. I have been using Linux for one or two years now. I don't feel competent answering questions on this list yet. But I certainly know more than many people who are starting out. I don't answer many questions on the local list either, but at our meetings I find newer people asking me questions that I can answer. If we did go to two lists, and were able to define the line separating the two groups, the distinction would ultimately fade. Some beginners would stay on that list even after gaining experience and knowledge. They would start to help others, perhaps basking in the glory of being looked up to. Beginners would end up on the advanced list, some to lurk, others because they didn't know about the other list. Questions would be asked and probably answered. We would end up with two lists doing essentially the same thing. Long live a unified list. Gerald Crimp -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Peter S Galbraith wrote: - Trim the post that you are quoting. Is there a way to trim the header size? - maybe at debian.org? Most posts are 2-3k, but nearly all of this is in the headers. I guess 2-3k isn't much, but it definately mounts up. If the headers could be trimmed, say one kilobyte, this would chop most messages by half! I went away for a week and when I come back I had about 2megs of messages. Also, should I normally Cc messages to the person I am repling to? They would normally be subscribed anyway, but many of you Cc replies anyway. -Tim --- Debian/GNU Linux... the maintainable operating system. http://www.debian.org -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Tim Thomson wrote: Also, should I normally Cc messages to the person I am repling to? They would normally be subscribed anyway, but many of you Cc replies anyway. I prefer that people cc replies to me, as well as sending them directly to the list. The reason for this is that I'm subscribed to debian-devel, debian-user, debian-doc, kde-user, kde-devel, fd-devel, and about fifteen other linux lists. I use procmail to sort out incoming mail, and the stuff that's sent to/from lists ends up in debian, freedos, kde folders. Stuff that's send to me (ala a cc in a reply) ends up in my inbox. I peruse the mailinglist folders when I get time, but read the stuff in INBOX immediately -- so if you're directing something to me via the list, I won't read it until I read through the mailinglist folders, which might be hours or even a few days later. Will -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | http://www.cis.udel.edu/~lowe/ | -- | So don't beg, and don't plead. | | You can't have the heart you make bleed. | |-- The Beautiful South, Love is... | -- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
I like the list the way it is aswell! :) Yes, I do to. Although I would dearly love to see a: When is version 2 coming out-list How to move from libc5 to libc6-list Both lists could be answered by a bot that posted the usual reply. I do think that a lot of general Linux questions that aren't particularly Debian specific are posted here but that is only because in my opinion, the quality of the answers provided is higher than can be found in newsgroups. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
Will Lowe wrote: I prefer that people cc replies to me, as well as sending them directly to the list. I use procmail to sort out incoming mail, and the stuff that's sent to/from lists ends up in debian, freedos, kde folders. Stuff that's send to me (ala a cc in a reply) ends up in my inbox. I use MH for mail, actually mh-e in Emacs. I also sort mail with procmail, buit can still see mail cc'ed to me immediately in the hundreds of messages in my Debian folder because of my MH setup. I use a special `scan' and `inc' form that add a character to lines showing messages addressed or CC'ed to me in the folder buffer. Then I tell font-lock to show these lines in blue. They then stand out amongst hundreds of otehr messages. -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
I used to participate in another high-traffic list. The Free Catholic Mailing List gets over 200 messages per day. They had a solution to the high traffic that worked very well (at least for me). The list is echoed to a usenet newsgroup, bit.listserv.catholic. The group is moderated by a robot; only subscribers can post to the newsgroup. Messages posted to the newsgroup are distributed to the mailing list, and messages sent to the listserver are posted to the newsgroup. For me, this worked very well. I set my subscription option to nomail so my mailbox didn't get flooded every day. Plus I had the advantage of being able to use tin or trn, complete with kill filters and sorting by threads, to read only the messages that interested me. Could this be a possible solution for us here on debian-user? Gerald Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://personal.msy.bellsouth.net/~gbelton Support the anti-Spam amendment http://www.cauce.org/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
ok - was not a too good but apparently common idea to ask this question. ;-) __ IT -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
divide the list in beginners and advanced
Shouln't it be possible to divide the list in beginners and advanced? It's a mess to get 70 to 120 mesages every day, more than 90 percent out of interest. Here in Europe we have to pay for our Internet-connections, means beside the phone bill there is an online charging as well. Regards __ IT http://home.kiss.de/~i_thum/ Web-Design, HTML, JavaScript -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
George Bonser wrote: so there is no benefit from splitting them. On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Irmund Thum wrote: Here in Europe we have to pay for our Internet-connections, means beside the phone bill there is an online charging as well. I think part of the solution is: - Think before you post. Is the contribution useful, or another `me too' ? - Trim the post that you are quoting. If you reply to a message you got 30 minutes ago, odds are that you don't need to quote all of it to reply to it. This would make messages shorter and faster for people to download. - If my answer is marginal at best, I often wait a few hours or a day to see if someone posts a better one. -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Peter S Galbraith wrote: - Think before you post. Is the contribution useful, or another `me too' ? Just DO it! ;-) - If my answer is marginal at best, I often wait a few hours or a day to see if someone posts a better one. Don't think so. Sometimes somebody doesn't need the BEST solution, just any solution. Or the second best is the one, that somebody else needs! BTW, I don't think, that the trafic in this list is SO much. My dial up connection downloads a complete day share in 2 or 3 minutes (OK I give in, I have ISDN with 64000 bps) so it isn't so expensive. Bye Daniel Gross - - - - Daniel Gross [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - - Ingolstadt, Germany [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - - If Win95 is the answer, it must have been a real foolish question ! - - - -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQEVAwUBNLvopgnLrgqPNGtBAQEnTAf/alnc+zwGVMkALrn4s19rRfmUo0QUz4mo dijUPRJ+xVdbSUUDruGE2zSjel7KF3knPebBPjx6Ov7l4Xivz4jC3nY7ZQMXJ5z0 6kcNokXco5C8WlTWSXdPWhHDfmlTpCAPFAfYMk6z+2Bqs34/2HgtcPBuooUreF+5 CfDjlJ2gQP/Bpzhn5AdLSCygsUk7A+SRl97GMkArD2b/231iB/RR2SE/4aF5oGd+ HDZdZneQBfeYQew2E6+r+qUrm23vGEWFLwQbi7tOGHxOcgZ6WxTGEdkbskO4XuMP Tzp2xXzWvjGycx1AKr4XXHJ48ZSt9lHPSI2bb5k05ohQWIuq33/zNQ== =qXUC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
me too (-; Actually, I believe that if the lists separated, more advanced people would not see the e-mail from poor newbies. I also believe that more people should read others e-mail. Even a simple read the manual in blah directory, that would be more helpful than ignoring them. I do not claim to know everything, I often ask newbie type questions about things i am unfamiliar w/, like my recent samba posts and xdm questions (which has been ignored). But I do also help many others, and often spend hours in irc doing one-on-one type help -- especially for programming and compilation problems. Anyway, all I am saying is -- remember we were newbies once too, some a lot more recent than others. Most of these people are not ignorant, just uninformed. If Linux is to thrive we must help people use it. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: divide the list in beginners and advanced
Here, Here!! I for one would ask that we not divide the list I picked Debian as my first try with Linux after looking at all the distributions. I probably jumped in over my head (as you can tell from the questions I post... :-) everything I read said Debian was not the best choice for a newbie to start with. I have always been impressed with the amount of support for Debian, and for that reason, this is the path I took. I would hope someday to be in the position to pass it on and help others out. Sometimes when I'm going over the list I find answers to other questions that I had, somebody else just happened to ask them before I did! I always manage to learn something here, even reading the more advanced stuff... If I ever get my act together, maybe someday I'll even try to take on the maintenance of a Debian package... -- Steve Morrill Reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Pub key id: 0xF2459FCD Debian LINUX Where I really want to go today! -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
