Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
--snip-- I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of the discussion. --snip-- H -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 09:04:28AM +0800, 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com was heard to say: dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a dynamic type is just a memory type. A wise man once said: everything is trivial, when you ignore complexity. (that's a lie: no wise man was involved, I just made it up :-) ) Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Cowley Harriswarewo...@gmail.com wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote. But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I haven't read many of the overnight posts yet. Anybody here watch The daily show. The first time I ever saw a show, they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to old news footage of Rumsfeld saying We know they've got weapons of mass destruction, we know where they are. Classic. you're off your rocker I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth. You're not just ignorant ...just plain ignorant and stupid also interesting was the use of disparaging remarks about anyone who agreed with him Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent and experience. and that's just you from one email. Do you actually read what you are typing? Here is a bit of your own email you should have read, the bit where you say no point in continuing any discussion. Because you kept on replying, which _is_ _how_ _to_ _continue_ _the_ _discussion_. It's clear they all have significantly more experience than you and they're telling you, There is no point to what you're doing., If you read the comments at the start, there were suggestions on ways do what he wanted to do, or suggestions of systems that are primarily C based. Not only are you not reading your own emails, you are not reading others. And to the people (Neal Hogan, Lisi Reisz), who had seemed to have the biggest problems with what he was saying, who contributed the least logic and factual statements to the entire discussion. A big ironic thanks for contributing noise to the signal. I suppose writing long comments about the psychology of hurt feelings and Daily Show analogies adds logic and facts to the thread. If you were paying attention (at least as much as you suggest) you'd have noticed that I was one of the original responders to the OP's question, who took him seriously. He failed to respond to it and went off as he did. Get off you high (merry-go-round) horse and spout your parent-like drivel to the kids who kicked a ball into your yard. A discussion took place . . . perhaps some posters used language you found hurtful. . . I didn't realize that debian-users@ had a politeness policeman. I'll keep that in mind from now on. With all due respect, -Neal --snip-- “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw. Yes, that's a cute quotation. I can also cite Zen quotations or other sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or when to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk around that rock. Great, you can go google up some zen and I'll pretend I care. I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of the discussion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Please trim your posts!! On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:18:34AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I do not think so, every language is a set of hammer, plier and screwdriver in my eyes, we just need one. Ahhh, you mean ... drum roll ... The swiss army chainsaw? LOL -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Will you not be reading it, in the same way you weren't continuing the discussion? Here is the thing, When you describe people in a negative way, that is in an insult. The big hint that you are doing so, is when you start the sentence with you're If you are expressing an opinion, it starts with I think ... you're off your rocker is a term of derision and is an insult. I think that your idea is sub-optimal is an opinion. Turn it around onto yourself, and think how it would make you feel. That's also a good way to figure out what is insulting or not. But it may take a bit more thought. Why would I need a teaching course? I have a degree in psychology. I know about projection, I also know it is typified by a defensive mental position, like a person trying to defend his hypocrisy. you were going to seriously make me look like a full, is spelled fool, and I didn't have to make you look like one. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 01:16:10AM +0300, Micha Feigin wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:17:33 +0100 Tom Furie t...@furie.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you would need 100s of lines of code with c. 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function? You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere. Thats not my problem. Even with python the 100s of lines are there behind the I naver said it was your problem, I was responding to 明覺. My point being that for him to drop those 100's of lines into a function and be able to make it a one line function call, those 100's of lines of code still have to be produced. The thing with higher level languages, libraries, etc. is those 100's or 1000's of lines of code are all still there but someone else has done the grunt work, and we get a nice easy way to make use of it. Cheers, Tom -- Fay: The British police force used to be run by men of integrity. Truscott: That is a mistake which has been rectified. -- Joe Orton, Loot signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:38 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/22 Peter Crawford creature...@hotmail.com: Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? Eventually you might find DirectFB acceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectFB Lack of XDirectFB in Debian is a limitation for now. thank you, I think DirectFB is the right direction, while X window is a strange way for graphic system. I hope I can find a DirectFB implementation of window system to replace gnome. I'm afraid that you are out of lucks as DirectFB won't help your cause either as there are VERY few programs that support it. I think that there is a media player, image viewer and possibly a pdf viewer, but not much more. You won't find anything similar to gnome unless you start writing it. Most gui programs depend explicitly on xorg calls so won't run without x windows. You are mostly limited to the console with tcsh and try to ignore the face that your whole startup and parts of your project management depend on sh, possibly also perl. Some of the build procedures for you faivorite programs also probably depend on some scripting language or other. I'm not aware of any pure c building environment. it doesn't matter, I have prepared to build my system from BIOS. or even build a computer first. regards, p. crawford _ We are your photos. Share us now with Windows Live Photos. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666047 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 01:43:35PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No more internet? :-) Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages, I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript. OK. I'll bite :) 15 years ago, I studied a couple of terms of evening classes in programming in C. One of the exercises thrown at us was: Build a reservation system for a 10 seat commuter aeroplane. Small, simple, defined - but harder than it looks on paper. Go for it: from your posts, you have the programming credentials. Try the following exercise: Build one in PHP / webforms (or Javascript) - web languages, anyway. Build one in pure Perl. Build one in C or C++ writing to a MySQL/Postgres database. Build one in C / C++ alone. Build one in assembler. Shouldn't take you long. That'll give you a much better feel for how/why different approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. It will mean you're porting code that should be familiar and that you can read and understand because you wrote it. Its a limited problem: the real world is harder. For extra credit, put it up on a website somewhere and submit the URL back here for the code to be analysed by others here. Come back when you're done. Then decide whether your ideas are feasible. AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the different reasons for different languages. EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose. I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will be C#, I guess. The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and batch scripts of one sort or another. I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a command line console in vista. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think it's C/C++. I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests, scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant of list). Vim may be ok, don't know. You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts. OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of apple script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc. It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. There I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usually it's the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your initial language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock into one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the language. I feel very strange that you have learnt so many languages but you do not feel bored with them. I have no words to say, maybe we are 2 different people. are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropriate and better for a job than another is. But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced has to say -- unless it's what you want to hear. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.orgwith a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around. First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but it is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you would need 100s of lines of code with c. 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function? Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who: c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of assembly ... -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Cowley Harriswarewo...@gmail.com wrote: This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is pretty much no. He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on this list for a while. As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for his opinions. Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to share. I don't agree with him that a one programming language system would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries this endeavor. Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people. GB Shaw. The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line stay about the same. The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly, c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a major advantage. On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural system. thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong, they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it, and maybe next time I will discover it earlier. I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming! H. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com: I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice, but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman. Don't waste people's time. Ever. yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and trying to figure out the best way. No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you that you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, But you're wrong and I'm right. I give you much respect, but you give me laughing, I will not respect you anymore, no thanks, good bye! You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do the same thing. Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to say the same thing? If you don't understand them both well, you might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language versus the other. 飄飄何所似, 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it 'just the same thing?' It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog in a well, saying look how small the sky is! A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages. Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need English to be the world official language, I believe no one will agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English, Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese have to learn English. Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every level. In this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it beyond any boundary of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into it more, but why? You'll just say, But I'm right and you're not. I value every good concept in every language, No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've been told dozens of times. but please add that good concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do nothing -- except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how taxes work in your country). You make it sound like a chore to learn a new language. For a true programmer it isn't. Learning a new language, for a real and true programmer, is and adventure. It's a chance to approach all problems from yet another perspective. I learned most languages in a few hours or days. When I first started looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it, working with other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're being forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field. But after reading that line, I wonder Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks like you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't have to learn languages you don't want to learn. I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth. or, I can reference another language so that I can improve my language, but please do not force me to use a new one. Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, don't learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, don't be surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! Honestly, that you can even talk about being forced to learn a language, that you even have that as a concept in your brain, says even more about you. It tells us you don't want to learn something new. It tells us you don't want to explore. It tells us you see programming more as a chore than an art or challenge. It also says that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a programmer. The way computers working is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement
is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:57 AM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:10 PM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote: ... Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) ) yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should be optional, not necessory! Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free. cliche Beggers can't be choosers. /cliche you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to you! A rose by any other name is still a rose. You can call yourself a chooser, but your actions show you to be a begger. Thanks for the long reply! I still do not think I'm a begger, as I have decided to work on the MikeOS, which is a assembly language programmed free OS. Of cause, currently I need to use Vista or Debian for everyday life, but my heart is on my own programmed OS, and I hope I will switch to my own OS after some years. You're a beggar. You want what you want from other people in an easy format so they've packaged it for you. When you're asking others for something, you're the beggar. You can TRY to also be the chooser, but if that were the case, and you were a chooser, then you'd be selecting from several available choices. I don't agree with you, I'm just looking for some people who have the same thinking with me, I'm not begging from them, for they also need my paticipation very much. 1) You're being literal and focusing on exact meanings, instead of interpreting the entire idiom. 2) We all look at our situation and interpret it with us having the highest and best goals. None of us look at ourselves as clearly as those who look from a distance. I sure know my ideal is far from the reality, but I think the meaning of life is to spend some time in realizing my ideal. First, when you look at what's in even just a minimal Linux install, there is no way you're ever going to get through working on more than a few programs in the next few years. Second, when a programmer writes a program, if he has any wisdom (which is knowledge gained through experience, hence the more years, the more experience and the more wisdom), he will use the right tool for the right job. For instance, I need to use mainly Perl and Java, but have used many other languages. I find I can code 5x faster in Perl than Java and about the same, maybe better if I use Perl instead of C++. Hardly any of my Perl code is done as a wrapper for a C or C++ program. It is valid code that does a LOT of work and does it well. Since it's text processing, to do the same work in C or C++ would be a nightmare. If we setup proper C/C++ library for text processing, we can reach the same effect as Perl, why cannot? for any piece of perl code, I believe I'm able to write a piece of C++ code as simple to replace it, on top of a proper library. It's the same for python, java and other languages. I worked on C# for 4 years, it's also a very efficient language, but I can drop it, for I know, C# is just C++ with a good library, the .net framework, but its cost is an additional layer, the .net runtime and its intermedia language. There are C and C++ text processing libraries. They don't have the power of Perl or Python or other languages. C has been around for decades and contributed to and worked on and used by many, MANY programmers. These people have more experience than you or I and their combined experience is enormous. If C was such a great language for doing every thing out there, and we'll use text processing as an example, why haven't these people released libraries that do all that Perl does already? One answer is that good question, why haven't released those C libraries? I will release one in the future, I'm sure I'm able to replace perl by C, including change C a little, but changing C a little is much better than creating a new language like perl. When you get into writing them, I think you'll see. Actually, it's kind of funny to look at this and see a young and inexperienced programmer thinking he's going to be able to do what many, many master programmers have never felt appropriate or reasonably possible. This is one statement, of a number that you've made, both to me and on the Debian list, that show you really do not understand a number of
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the different reasons for different languages. EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose. I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will be C#, I guess. The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and batch scripts of one sort or another. I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a command line console in vista. Try windows key+R (Run) and run 'cmd'. Voilà, there's your command line. Now let me continue to avoid this hilarious discussion. Sjoerd signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wednesday 24 June 2009 03:02:15 明覺 wrote: we must have an official language There speaks a well indoctrinated totalitarian! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks I am by no means a programmer - junior or otherwise - although have dabbled with C, C++, Lisp, Scheme, and Python, and have been successful in getting a few simplistic bash scripts to work as predicted. I say all of this just to acknowledge that my ignorance about programming is profound. What microscopic information I can lay claim to is actually in agreement with what you have already stated in one of your replies to the numerous posts in response to your topic. I also admire that you stick so steadfastly to your guns in the face of so much opprobrium. That takes a certain level of courage of your convictions, and that is a trait I respect. There is a counterpoint (corollary) to that, of course, and that is that painting oneself into a corner is not a wise way to proceed. I cannot profess to understand your rationale for eschewing all that is not C/ C# based. But, there are many things I cannot claim to understand. Your reasons are your own. It does lead to some interesting choices though: (1) to what extent does your choice restrict either/ both the opportunities available to you and the quality of experience with respect to computing? Some of those links from MikeOS actually look quite interesting, but for me only as a hobby. For serious research work, report development, data analysis, and so on, I myself am completely dependent on higher level programmes that are built upon lower level routines. I suppose in the spirit of OOP, I don't need to know how it does that (information hiding) - I just want to know that it will do what it says on the tin whenever I call upon it to work. This is just another way of saying that going the purist approach is likely to severely limit your overall capability to do work. As others have suggested - unless you are going to recode all the apps you feel that your digital experience will benefit from including into C, etc., you are likely to be experiencing a lot of barriers when pursuing a mono-language approach and in trying to get a workable system. (2) if your intent is to try to code an entire OS from C, et al., it is likely to be quite fast but will require an untold number of programming hours to develop. Perhaps if you searched out C programmers with a proposal, you could use a basic UNIX (FreeBSD?) system and code together an OS in C and C only. As others have already noted here, it will take many programming hours I'd imagine and really - what will be the point, besides a proof of concept? This is not a bad thing. The point of wisdom however might be, to paraphrase a GNU/Linux celebrity, to allow lower level programmes to develop higher level functions. C is a lower level programming language when compared to, say python or perl (which I know nothing about, I hasten to add). But C serves a function in a hierarchy of programming languages that together converge into an operating environment. The question is are you after a system that only runs using C programmes or are you after an operational system? If the former, then there is a lot of work to be done. If the latter, then there are a number of alternatives available, one of which is GNU/Linux, or perhaps a *BSD, as already has been mentioned. I have to take my hat off to you - I wouldn't even know where or how to begin to follow such a purist path, and I hope that you start a blog charting progress. This is exactly what FOSS is all about, surely ... being able to change existing programmes and challenging established algorithms. As a dedicated FOSS user and voluntary advocate I ask that you be sure to respect existing GPLs as appropriate, please. Those standards have preserved human intellectual development as property of the commons, and this needs to be preserved. If you have something to add, please ensure that it is owned by the majority of humanity and not locked under some proprietary licensing agreement. Godspeed in your mission. Best AG -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 00:45 -0500]: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote: And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language? How are you going to build your code? I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own compiler by asm if I do not like gcc. Then get cracking. Had you spent half as much time doing some research (the source is there, Luke) as you have done carrying on with these silly assertions and non sequiturs you might accurately understand the scope of your foolishness. In case I'm wrong, get back to work, Linus! - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Nate Bargmannn...@n0nb.us wrote: * 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 00:45 -0500]: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote: And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language? How are you going to build your code? I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own compiler by asm if I do not like gcc. Then get cracking. Had you spent half as much time doing some research (the source is there, Luke) as you have done carrying on with these silly assertions and non sequiturs you might accurately understand the scope of your foolishness. I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many useless languages, I surely will write my own compiler. What a pity you are! In case I'm wrong, get back to work, Linus! - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong, they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it, and maybe next time I will discover it earlier. I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming! There is one language for all computer programming, it's the machine language. Everything reduces to that. It's all a bunch of ones and zeros. But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM? Oh darn, different assembly languages. Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer when you need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell. You must be adaptable. -- Dale Harris rod...@maybe.org rod...@gmail.com /.-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Dale Harrisrod...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong, they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it, and maybe next time I will discover it earlier. I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming! There is one language for all computer programming, it's the machine language. Everything reduces to that. It's all a bunch of ones and zeros. But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM? Oh darn, different assembly languages. Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer when you need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell. You must be adaptable. you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my thoughts. thanks. -- Dale Harris rod...@maybe.org rod...@gmail.com /.-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you would need 100s of lines of code with c. 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function? You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere. cheers, Tom -- If a man has talent and cannot use it, he has failed. -- Thomas Wolfe signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Dom, 21 Jun 2009, ?? wrote: Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl While your first message did not have this signature, subsequent ones had. I don't know for sure exactly what that means, but I suppose it's software you use/like/support or something like that. I don't know all of them, but I can make some comments about some of them: Mozilla Parts of it are written in XUL/JavaScript (or something like that). Gmail Relies heavily on JavaScript on the client side. As for the server side, while I don't know in which language it is written, I doubt it's C or C++. Flashplayer Has it's own language for defining the flash programs. -- Eduardo M KALINOWSKI edua...@kalinowski.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wednesday 24 June 2009 12:37:25 明覺 wrote: What a pity you are! What does that mean?? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Qua, 24 Jun 2009, 明覺 wrote: I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many useless languages, gcc is a C compiler, supporting only that. g++ is a C++ compiler. gfortran is a fortran compiler. ... and so on. Maybe you are confusing gcc (the C compiler) with the GNU Compiler Suite, which is a set of compilers for several languages. -- Eduardo M KALINOWSKI edua...@kalinowski.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: otoh, I also dislike the need for many scripting languages. Perl, python, tcl, lua, ruby, lisp, scheme... I'd be also glad if packages like openssl-blacklist didn't require python... I think it's a great service to the users that a program like openssl-blacklist was available in a timely manner. Security scenarios like the one you mention highlight the importance that programmers should primarily use the language they know best for the task, instead of being 'forced' to use a certain language that might be less familiar or less suited for the purpose. Feel free to write a better version of openssl-blacklist in a language you think more apropriate. Feel free to write a better version of any software in the language of you choice. Or stick with whatever is given to you for free. No one ever forced you to use their free software. Cheers, Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/23 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com: A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages. Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need English to be the world official language, I believe no one will agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English, Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese have to learn English. Each (natural) language does things differently. Something very important would be lost if we did away with the differences. It's the same with programming languages--different languages exist for a reason, and while it's theoretically possible to do anything in any language, some languages are better than others for some tasks. Haiku in English usually sound silly; an install script in Assembly would be silly too. You really can't write a play in heroic alexandrine couplets in Chinese; just the same, there are probably better language choices than tcl to write real-time financial data analysis software. I do not think we need an official world language. I think that if you want to access Du Fu, Li Bai, Zhuangzi, you will need to learn Chinese; if you want to read Milton, Shakespeare, the Constitution, you'll need to learn English; if you want Apollinaire, Hugo, Rostand, you'll need to learn French. But not everybody needs access to all those things; and there are compatibility layers (in the form of translations) available for people who don't need direct access. People need to learn the languages that let them easily do the things they want to do, whether that's parse a text file or read Homer. What makes a natural language valuable is not just the sounds and the grammar, but the entire body of work that exists in the language. Consider Perl vs. C. Perl doesn't really add new concepts to C -- they're both procedural, you can achieve the same goals in each. Part of what makes Perl valuable is CPAN -- an enormous body of Perl code that exists to solve thousands of problems that other people have already had, and for which Perl users have written reusable solutions. It's not complete, and there are times when it's worthwhile to re-invent the wheel; but incorporating Perl syntax into C would not give you access to the best part of Perl. For that, you'd have to port all of CPAN. To incorporate the best part of Chinese into English, you need more than pinyin and tone markings; you would need to translate Confucius, Mencius, Laozi, Han Fei, Shijing, Daozang, Shiji.. which has been done, but people who really want to understand still have to learn Chinese! I value every good concept in every language, but please add that good concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; or, I can reference another language so that I can improve my language, but please do not force me to use a new one. What would it mean? A big part of the advantage of Perl, like I said, isn't new ideas or concepts. Perl has more compressed syntax, and easier access to built-in functionality, like integrated hashes and regular expressions. They aren't *new*, you can do them in C, but it takes work. To include Perl's *advantage* into C, you would either have to extend the C syntax, or rewrite your C compiler to understand Perl. To use it, you would have to learn either the new syntax, or learn actual Perl! In just the same way, you can write in English letters, Wu2 sheng1 ye3 you3 ya2, er3 zhi1 ye3 wu2 ya2. Yi3 you3 ya2 sui2 wu2 ya2, dai4 yi3; yi3 er3 wei2 zhi1 zhe3, dai4 er2 yi3 yi3! But to understand it (much less appreciate it) you'd need to actually learn classical Chinese. You can rewrite it in English (it means something sort of like My life has a limit, but knowledge has no limit. To use that which has a limit to pursue that which has no limit, is a disaster; to think it has [all] been learned, is still a disaster!), but it just isn't possible to take the best part of the language and graft it onto English. Even if you could, you'd be creating a specialized part of the language that requires specialized vocabulary and grammar. And the result wouldn't be familiar to everyone, and would definitely NOT be ANSI C. there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept in one language to another. To implement, no. To take advantage of, yes. The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn and use it from the start to end. People have been cooperating (or not) without a universal language for a very long time. The English and the Russians cooperated against Germany in World War II, and
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:49:26PM -0500, Cybe R. Wizard wrote: Although there have been attempts to design one universal computer language that serves all purposes, all of them have failed to be generally accepted as filling this role. Ada does a good job. Except that since no OS is written in it, to get OS system calls, you have to use the underlying system libraries, which are usually in C. This is simple in Ada, but its still mixed-language. Of course, if you care to, even on i386 I guess you could start from scratch and build an embedded system without an underlying OS, all in Ada. However, there would be little point. On the other hand, if you're designing a new air traffic control system for a country (e.g. Canada), you write it in Ada from scratch with no underlying OS, no other libraries. Ditto if you're building a new fly-by-wire system for an airliner. The US military, before they decided to go C.O.T.S. specified Ada for everything. They wanted one language that could do everything, and they got it. The problem for the rest of us is that people were already comfortable with all the rules that they could break with C. For a commercial company that earns money fixing its own bugs, it doesn't make commercial sense to retrain everyone in Ada and retool in Ada, only to inadvertanly write software with fewer bugs (and what bugs there are, easier to fix). Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Celejar wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:52:41 -0400 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com wrote: ... There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution in C. Interesting; here's a different perspective (I'm not a serious enough coder to go on the record with an opinion): http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001145.html Quoted from the above link: --- If that doesn't carry enough weight for you, how does it sound coming from Charles Moore, the creator of FORTH? A second corollary was even more heretical: Do it yourself! The conventional approach, enforced to a greater or lesser extent, is that you shall use a standard subroutine. I say that you should write your own subroutines. Before you can write your own subroutines, you have to know how. This means, to be practical, that you have written it before; which makes it difficult to get started. But give it a try. After writing the same subroutine a dozen times on as many computers and languages, you'll be pretty good at it. --- Note that, while this says that reinventing the wheel CAN be worthwhile, it also says to do so in MANY DIFFERENT LANGUAGES! -- Marc Shapiro mshapiro...@yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:21 AM, Cowley Harris wrote: This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is pretty much no. He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on this list for a while. I think the interest has come from people responding to him, not from anything he's said. As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for his opinions. Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to share. I don't see anyone being threatened by him or acting like they're threatened. I know I've stated my thoughts on this as I've seen some patterns emerge, such as his statements getting more and more extreme and as many of them show more and more of a claim to knowing something it's clear he does not know. But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I haven't read many of the overnight posts yet. I don't agree with him that a one programming language system would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries this endeavor. “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw. Yes, that's a cute quotation. I can also cite Zen quotations or other sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or when to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk around that rock. The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line stay about the same. The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly, c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a major advantage. Definitely. There are definite advantages to a higher level language and we are well past the days when we gained any significant advantage by having a programmer write in Assembler to save memory space and CPU time instead of having the same system done in a higher level language, whether it's an interpreted one or compiled one. On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural system. Which is what pretty much everyone but the OP has said. I think we all agree on that. I've found times where I may be talking with someone who knows one language but does not know the one I'm working in that I'm using a modified hash table or I'll say, It's something like a hash table, but it's my own class, so there's some extra functions. That generally does well enough. I've never had a problem talking with another programmer who is not familiar with the language I'm using where I couldn't communicate what I was doing easily. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:53 AM, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote: ... I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew more than I did. If I refused to learn from people on this and other lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at the keyboard. I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even years, by listening to those with experience. You don't seem to want to listen to the experience of many. Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them all yourself ;-) Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the jobs you feel like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better. Don't forget to live. Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I hope you can figure out the meaning ... I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about tought me also about those I do know something about and also tought me what I don't want to do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you realize how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish. I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if computers hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui, whatever) has never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on that matter ;-) I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c ++, java, matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...), assembly, basic, pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the concultion that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a couple of days instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or twice) and go out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or whatever, I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it. If I do not change the reality, I will suffer till I'm dying; If I try to change the reality, maybe i will just suffer 20 years, and rest for my last 20 years. And the first place to change reality is YOUR PERCEPTION. There is no suffering here, other than your refusal to learn or use other languages. This is a task that, if you apply yourself, you will master in 6 months or so. The other task, that you propose, is not a 20 year task -- it won't be finished that quickly. So why suffer for 20 years when there's no reason to suffer for longer than a few months? As for resting the last 20 years, that assumes that there are enough people who value your work that they'll pay you enough that you will be able to rest, as opposed to finding whatever job you can to continue to support you. You've been given a plethora of reasons why programmers do NOT want a unified language. If they wanted one language, there are many programmers far wiser than anyone here that could have started that over the past few decades, but none of them have. Why? Because there is not only no need for one, but because it's counter productive. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
In 20090624052259.ga4...@galactic.demon.co.uk, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: Russell Coker on Planet.debian had a post yesterday or so where he pointed to the very wise advice he'd been given, essentially the people who write compilers and toolchains are smarter/better programmers than you are: if you think you've found a bug in their compiler, its almost always in your code. There will be a point in your development of programming skills where this is no longer true. (Mostly, because you won't blame the compiler/toolchain except in the rarest of circumstances, after triple-checking yourself and having *at least* one other programmer you trust look at it.) You can be just as smart/good as them without having to write compilers and toolchains. Not all are called to such black arts. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 01:43:35PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No more internet? :-) Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages, I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript. OK. I'll bite :) 15 years ago, I studied a couple of terms of evening classes in programming in C. One of the exercises thrown at us was: Build a reservation system for a 10 seat commuter aeroplane. Small, simple, defined - but harder than it looks on paper. Go for it: from your posts, you have the programming credentials. Try the following exercise: Build one in PHP / webforms (or Javascript) - web languages, anyway. Build one in pure Perl. Build one in C or C++ writing to a MySQL/Postgres database. Build one in C / C++ alone. Build one in assembler. Shouldn't take you long. That'll give you a much better feel for how/ why different approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. It will mean you're porting code that should be familiar and that you can read and understand because you wrote it. Its a limited problem: the real world is harder. For extra credit, put it up on a website somewhere and submit the URL back here for the code to be analysed by others here. And, in terms of usability and compatibility, since one is done for a browser, meaning a web front end, then be sure to write the others so they use a GUI. Sure, do them first from the command line if you want, but then when you're done, make them all work with a GUI. Come back when you're done. Then decide whether your ideas are feasible. I think this is a major point Andrew makes. This is a simple program, but, as I've pointed out, your comments indicate almost no experience in many parts of the programming world. Just trying to do this simple program in the ways he's suggested requires skills that the OP's comments make it clear he has not yet attained. Now if the OP had shown he's been there, done that, gone through all these kinds of experiences, I think many of us would take his comments MUCH more seriously. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:09 AM, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: ... The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and batch scripts of one sort or another. I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a command line console in vista. I can. Used it on my Mother's computer when running tests when Comcast, the local crappy cable/Internet provider screwed up. I know it's there because I've used it. What leads you to think it's not there? Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
In 20090624095519.35472r7kcfcmb...@mail.kalinowski.com.br, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote: On Qua, 24 Jun 2009, 明覺 wrote: I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many useless languages, gcc is a C compiler, supporting only that. g++ is a C++ compiler. gfortran is a fortran compiler. ... and so on. Maybe you are confusing gcc (the C compiler) with the GNU Compiler Suite, which is a set of compilers for several languages. Capitalization is important. GCC is the GNU Compiler Collection, which has numerous frontends, backends, and quite a bit of shared code in the middle. gcc basename of the UNIX binary that is the C language frontend part of GCC. DNS is case insensitive, making gcc.gnu.org == GCC.GNU.org. GCC.GNU.org is the home of GCC. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Original Message From: shi.min...@gmail.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl? Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:04:28 +0800 On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jochen Schulzm...@well-adjusted.de wrote: ??: thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++. This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a dynamic type is just a memory type. I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language, which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and avoid all the overlappings among different languages. to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures) is not even turing complete! I surely dare to complain sql, it's a programming languge with all the general functions such as string processing, can't you hear the complaint from most programmers? microsoft has even replaced sql programming by .net framework. If you think I complain sql and other languages just because they are unlike C, you are too hard to communicate with. If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them. J. -- Nothing is as I planned it. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpAuXEACgkQ+AfZydWK2zkcCACdFwBDimeLaDsEmUMKaS+m538u ZcIAnRMQmtw186Ogzhud8Cx5GzZ9V2uN =ZQgK -END PGP SIGNATURE- Seems to me the US Government tried this with ADA, supposedly a superset of previous languages. Its failure is well-documented. Larry -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Fla shplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl ??,??,??,????,?? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.d ebian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:11 AM, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around. First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but it is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you would need 100s of lines of code with c. 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function? 1) Not all libraries are bug free and producing such a library takes considerable effort and why does one need that effort when one can produce the same program quickly and easily in Python? 2) Perhaps it's not a specific function that will be re-used later, perhaps it's a combination of several things. 3) Considering that Python is written in C (or at least parts of it), if it worked better to include those functions in C, instead of in a new language, then the same code could have been done as a C library. How many people are trying to do that? 4) Do that. Then do it for EVERY Python function. And EVERY Perl function. And just try doing it with really high level languages. And see how HUGE a library you have -- it'll be so overburdened that nobody will be able to easily learn the API. People will stick with the original languages because it's easier to learn that language than such a complex library with an API. Now, here's one for you: You resist, in every possible way, learning any new languages and talk about how bad it is that you have to learn them. What languages do you know well? Which ones have you taken time to learn and to use for more than just a simple program? And what are your real objections to different languages and using them? The more I read your posts the more I get the impression that the issue here is you just want to justify not having to learn languages, which makes me wonder if you were hand-fed what it took to learn C and C++ and basically have never mastered any other language and don't want to -- and are going into more effort to justify that than what it would take to learn how to learn languages. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 明覺 wrote: One Microsoft Way is perfect if all the microsoft softwares are free as LGPL. You realize how silly it is to use free and one way in the same sentence? Freedom is the very opposite of having one prefered way for all. Cheers and happy trolling, Johannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkpCQPgACgkQC1NzPRl9qEVg5QCfa3N8H158llS3mObPQjIXxsyG EGIAn36Y/63KS/VJBJluFpeAPiGjehBh =CzyQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 8:05 AM, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Dale Harrisrod...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong, they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it, and maybe next time I will discover it earlier. I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming! There is one language for all computer programming, it's the machine language. Everything reduces to that. It's all a bunch of ones and zeros. But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM? Oh darn, different assembly languages. Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer when you need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell. You must be adaptable. you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my thoughts. thanks. Oh, we understand you quite well. Do you understand what we're saying? Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 06:39 -0500]: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Nate Bargmannn...@n0nb.us wrote: I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many useless languages, I surely will write my own compiler. Have you also reinvented the wheel? Did you build the streets you walk on? Did you build your own computer from pure silicon, oil, and ore? Did you build your own Internet to reach the Debian mail servers? You are not a purist unless you have done these things. Any reliance on others for your computing experience compromises your integrity. Surely you must know that you are on a maddening and never end quest of purity. To get an idea of where such a misguided quest might lead, might I suggest that you read Robert Pirsig's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values'. A Web search will find it online. OTOH, your folly only appears to be surpassed by your bravado. What a pity you are! I suppose that is a matter of perspective. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Original Message From: h...@halblog.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl? Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:41:58 -0400 On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:09 AM, ?? wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: ... The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and batch scripts of one sort or another. I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a command line console in vista. I can. Used it on my Mother's computer when running tests when Comcast, the local crappy cable/Internet provider screwed up. I know it's there because I've used it. What leads you to think it's not there? Hal Ken Thompson help me but I've just looked it up on my wife's Vista machine (her employer requires it incidently) StartAll ProgramsAccessoriesCommand Prompt Larry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
明覺 schrieb: you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my thoughts. thanks. Then stop explaining your thoughts and 'ideals' forever and all of us will be happy. Hans -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Hal Vaughan wrote. But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I haven't read many of the overnight posts yet. Anybody here watch The daily show. The first time I ever saw a show, they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to old news footage of Rumsfeld saying We know they've got weapons of mass destruction, we know where they are. Classic. you're off your rocker I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth. You're not just ignorant ...just plain ignorant and stupid also interesting was the use of disparaging remarks about anyone who agreed with him Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent and experience. and that's just you from one email. Do you actually read what you are typing? Here is a bit of your own email you should have read, the bit where you say no point in continuing any discussion. Because you kept on replying, which _is_ _how_ _to_ _continue_ _the_ _discussion_. It's clear they all have significantly more experience than you and they're telling you, There is no point to what you're doing., If you read the comments at the start, there were suggestions on ways do what he wanted to do, or suggestions of systems that are primarily C based. Not only are you not reading your own emails, you are not reading others. And to the people (Neal Hogan, Lisi Reisz), who had seemed to have the biggest problems with what he was saying, who contributed the least logic and factual statements to the entire discussion. A big ironic thanks for contributing noise to the signal. --snip-- “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw. Yes, that's a cute quotation. I can also cite Zen quotations or other sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or when to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk around that rock. Great, you can go google up some zen and I'll pretend I care. I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of the discussion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:17:33 +0100 Tom Furie t...@furie.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you would need 100s of lines of code with c. 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function? You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere. Thats not my problem. Even with python the 100s of lines are there behind the scenes. What interests me is that _I_ need to write only one line and then I can go outside and smell the flowers. The code is a byproduct that is not that interesting in itself. It usually comes to solve some problem and I'd rather spend my time on the problem than on the code. There is another point, it's much easier to debug 1 line of code than a hundred. c is a swiss army knife, low level, very powerful, will solve everything with enough work. If someone didn't build a tool for the job yet, c is probably your answear. I still wouldn't want to carve a surfboard using an army knife if I can just pick a complete surfboard and spend my time surfing instead. Regretably I spend quite a bit of time with c, among other things because it's the right tool for MY job (fortran and matlab are usually better, but for some things thats what I've got), and as someone who knows c quite well, I tell people to stay away if they have a quicker way. cheers, Tom -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:53:51 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:57 AM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:10 PM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote: ... Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) ) yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should be optional, not necessory! Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free. cliche Beggers can't be choosers. /cliche you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to you! A rose by any other name is still a rose. You can call yourself a chooser, but your actions show you to be a begger. Thanks for the long reply! I still do not think I'm a begger, as I have decided to work on the MikeOS, which is a assembly language programmed free OS. Of cause, currently I need to use Vista or Debian for everyday life, but my heart is on my own programmed OS, and I hope I will switch to my own OS after some years. You're a beggar. You want what you want from other people in an easy format so they've packaged it for you. When you're asking others for something, you're the beggar. You can TRY to also be the chooser, but if that were the case, and you were a chooser, then you'd be selecting from several available choices. I don't agree with you, I'm just looking for some people who have the same thinking with me, I'm not begging from them, for they also need my paticipation very much. 1) You're being literal and focusing on exact meanings, instead of interpreting the entire idiom. 2) We all look at our situation and interpret it with us having the highest and best goals. None of us look at ourselves as clearly as those who look from a distance. I sure know my ideal is far from the reality, but I think the meaning of life is to spend some time in realizing my ideal. First, when you look at what's in even just a minimal Linux install, there is no way you're ever going to get through working on more than a few programs in the next few years. Second, when a programmer writes a program, if he has any wisdom (which is knowledge gained through experience, hence the more years, the more experience and the more wisdom), he will use the right tool for the right job. For instance, I need to use mainly Perl and Java, but have used many other languages. I find I can code 5x faster in Perl than Java and about the same, maybe better if I use Perl instead of C++. Hardly any of my Perl code is done as a wrapper for a C or C++ program. It is valid code that does a LOT of work and does it well. Since it's text processing, to do the same work in C or C++ would be a nightmare. If we setup proper C/C++ library for text processing, we can reach the same effect as Perl, why cannot? for any piece of perl code, I believe I'm able to write a piece of C++ code as simple to replace it, on top of a proper library. It's the same for python, java and other languages. I worked on C# for 4 years, it's also a very efficient language, but I can drop it, for I know, C# is just C++ with a good library, the .net framework, but its cost is an additional layer, the .net runtime and its intermedia language. There are C and C++ text processing libraries. They don't have the power of Perl or Python or other languages. C has been around for decades and contributed to and worked on and used by many, MANY programmers. These people have more experience than you or I and their combined experience is enormous. If C was such a great language for doing every thing out there, and we'll use text processing as an example, why haven't these people released libraries that do all that Perl does already? One answer is that good question, why haven't released those C libraries? I will release one in the future, I'm sure I'm able to replace perl by C, including change C a little, but changing C a little is much better than creating a new language like perl. When you get into writing them, I think you'll see. Actually, it's kind of funny to look at this and see a young and inexperienced programmer thinking he's going to be able to do what many, many master programmers have never
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 24, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Cowley Harris wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote. But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I haven't read many of the overnight posts yet. Anybody here watch The daily show. The first time I ever saw a show, they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to old news footage of Rumsfeld saying We know they've got weapons of mass destruction, we know where they are. Classic. you're off your rocker Yes, a judgement call. Did you look at the context? Please, if you want to make me look bad, have the courtesy to quote me in context. The line was, All of US are telling you that you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. It's a quick paraphrase of much of what has been said, and in context (which includes his question before it, which I'll leave to you to research), it's also idiomatic. I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth. That's not an insult. Look over his comments. I'll add that I've been corresponding with him privately as well. I'm not a counselor or LCSW or psychologist, but I have enough experience to recognize when someone is avoiding something from fear or trying to avoid work they don't want to do. I'll qualify myself if you need me to. You're not just ignorant Ignorant is a quantifiable judgement which fits because he has demonstrated an amazing lack of knowledge in the field in discussion. ...just plain ignorant and stupid Not an insult, a judgement call, but one that can be supported. Yes, maybe stupid can be an insult. IF context did not make a difference. I was calling the attitude just plain ignorant and stupid. That is not insulting the person. If you think so, then take teacher training and see why there is so much focus on addressing problems with a kid's actions, not with them. Now you can go on, but I stopped reading here because you pretty much took comments out of context to make your point. In other words, you tried to say that he makes me insecure and tried to focus on me insulting him when, what you've actually done, is exactly what you accuse me of. It's called projection: We like to say others are doing what we don't want to admit we're doing. The OP has made MANY statements that show he does not know his field. He's been given a LOT of good information, yet persists on saying that his way is right and that others don't understand him. That is, point blank, ignorant. I may not be smooth, I may not be graceful, but I'm not afraid to say, This is ignorant, when it is. And next time you want to accuse me or others of doing something, don't pull out just the parts that support your side and figure the context and parts that disprove it will be ignored or can be discarded. Feel free to misquote me more. I won't be reading it, though. I have a short tolerance for people that take my words out of context and try to say that they mean something other than what they mean in the full context in which they're used. In other words, at first I thought you might have had a point -- until you came on announcing, with the Jon Stewart reference, that you were going to seriously make me look like a full, but could only do so by removing the context of my statements. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
明覺: thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++. This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures) is not even turing complete! If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them. J. -- Nothing is as I planned it. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote: I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like it? b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest. I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very, very grateful to the developers. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:18:34 明覺 wrote: I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers, I'm not. they won't be confusing. You mean confused not confusing. An important difference. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote: I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like it? +1 b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest. +1 I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very, very grateful to the developers. +2 /tony -- http://www.baldwinsoftware.com free/open source software tcl yer os with a feather... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:18:34 明覺 wrote: I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers, I'm not. they won't be confusing. You mean confused not confusing. An important difference. Really... Being only a wannabe hacker, and not yet a real hacker, I have to say that real programmers are often confusing... But I'll keep learning. /tony -- http://www.baldwinsoftware.com free/open source software tcl yer os with a feather... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote: 明覺: thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++. This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? Function-objects. (Examples in STL.) What about higher order functions, Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I think; In Boost anyway.) pattern matching, That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using templates) or slowly and painfully. dynamic typing? Bah. As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be static. Type errors should be detected before run time. [I'm only willing to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)] Still. C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite unfortunate, but are language choices. In comparision, it would be fairly impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too. I don't agree with the OP, though. Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a lot) of man-hours. CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages. I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and Lisp. teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based languages. ;)/tease -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:39:53AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: [...] Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the different reasons for different languages. EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose. I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will be C#, I guess. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think it's C/C++. Oh boy, I call BS! linq by no means replaces sql. It maybe a layer on top of (also) sql. But even the .NET (NOT c#!!) is not coherent. An MS does not gravitate only to c#. [...] -- Henning Follmann | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com it consultant | www.itcfollmann.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice, but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman. Don't waste people's time. Ever. You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do the same thing. Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to say the same thing? If you don't understand them both well, you might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language versus the other. 飄飄何所似, 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it 'just the same thing?' It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog in a well, saying look how small the sky is! I'm perhaps a junior programmer myself. I can and have used C and Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized that different languages do different things much more easily than others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done. Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to parse and output XML. But I wanted to learn more, so I insisted on doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but I wanted to learn. Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers? What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the waste of time those scripts languages bring to us programmers -- they exist to SAVE time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution in C. You keep coming back to this argument that I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like. An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting problem you can think of solving with computers? You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas are at least worth considering. Good luck. ~Jeff Soules 2009/6/22 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tuesday 23 June 2009 16:12:26 Tony Baldwin wrote: Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:18:34 明覺 wrote: I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers, I'm not. they won't be confusing. You mean confused not confusing. An important difference. Really... Being only a wannabe hacker, and not yet a real hacker, I have to say that real programmers are often confusing... :-) But it is still not what he meant! But I'll keep learning. /tony -- http://www.baldwinsoftware.com free/open source software tcl yer os with a feather... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? (This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just this initial email.) FYI: perl: C program python: C program (ba)sh: C program ruby: C program sed: C program awk: C program the list continues... And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language? How are you going to build your code? What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No more internet? :-) On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29) is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To quote some more from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code: A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55 million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to develop. Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-) Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life. Cheers, Hilco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote: ... I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew more than I did. If I refused to learn from people on this and other lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at the keyboard. I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even years, by listening to those with experience. You don't seem to want to listen to the experience of many. Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them all yourself ;-) Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the jobs you feel like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better. Don't forget to live. Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I hope you can figure out the meaning ... I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about tought me also about those I do know something about and also tought me what I don't want to do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you realize how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish. I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if computers hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui, whatever) has never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on that matter ;-) I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c++, java, matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...), assembly, basic, pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the concultion that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a couple of days instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or twice) and go out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or whatever, I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:41:44 -0700 Hilco Wijbenga hilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? By the way, there are a few window managers that don't depends on perl/python, I double that there are any desktop managers. None of them will run without Xorg. It's core is mostly c/c++ by the way, the others are probably mostly for handling setup files and such. (This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just this initial email.) FYI: perl: C program python: C program (ba)sh: C program ruby: C program sed: C program awk: C program the list continues... And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language? How are you going to build your code? What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No more internet? :-) That would really free up my day, I think I'll take your offer On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29) is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To quote some more from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code: A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55 million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to develop. Just wondering where that last 5 came from? ;-) possibly that's for arguing with people why you languages other than c/c++ ... Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-) I would like to say to both but I would settle for the first for now, the second I'll take care of in a few thousand years Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life. Cheers, Hilco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:38 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/22 Peter Crawford creature...@hotmail.com: Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? Eventually you might find DirectFB acceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectFB Lack of XDirectFB in Debian is a limitation for now. thank you, I think DirectFB is the right direction, while X window is a strange way for graphic system. I hope I can find a DirectFB implementation of window system to replace gnome. I'm afraid that you are out of lucks as DirectFB won't help your cause either as there are VERY few programs that support it. I think that there is a media player, image viewer and possibly a pdf viewer, but not much more. You won't find anything similar to gnome unless you start writing it. Most gui programs depend explicitly on xorg calls so won't run without x windows. You are mostly limited to the console with tcsh and try to ignore the face that your whole startup and parts of your project management depend on sh, possibly also perl. Some of the build procedures for you faivorite programs also probably depend on some scripting language or other. I'm not aware of any pure c building environment. regards, p. crawford _ We are your photos. Share us now with Windows Live Photos. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666047 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the different reasons for different languages. EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose. I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will be C#, I guess. The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and batch scripts of one sort or another. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think it's C/C++. I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests, scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant of list). Vim may be ok, don't know. You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts. OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of apple script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc. It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. There I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usually it's the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your initial language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock into one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the language. are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropriate and better for a job than another is. But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced has to say -- unless it's what you want to hear. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.orgwith a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around. First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but it is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you would need 100s of lines of code with c. Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who: c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of assembly ... -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/23 Micha Feigin mi...@post.tau.ac.il: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:41:44 -0700 Hilco Wijbenga hilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote: A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55 million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to develop. Just wondering where that last 5 came from? ;-) possibly that's for arguing with people why you languages other than c/c++ ... That's gotta be about Vim vs. Emacs. ;-) Or maybe about where to put the braces after having decided that Vim rules! :-P Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-) I would like to say to both but I would settle for the first for now, the second I'll take care of in a few thousand years You're still alive so you have not been proven mortal yet. ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Micha Feigin: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote: Then what's the only one language for linux? I think it's C/C++. I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests, scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant of list). Vim may be ok, don't know. Vim is out of the question as well since it includes its own scripting language. As well as sed, awk, etc. Probably even ed. I am starting to wonder how many turing complete languages a common Debian system contains. Probably more than a hundred. J. -- There is no justice in road accidents. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:35 PM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Napoleon rri0...@attglobal.net: 明覺 wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote: 明覺 writes: yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to maintain for me. If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a language. Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions. What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A REASON! No one language is best for everything. For instance - I can code web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, Perl or Java. The same is true with anything else. I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the languages were chosen for their particular projects. You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be different languages! To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime. So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just like the rest of us do. Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself miserable. In this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get over this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will just be the first of many frustrations for you. And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you - for ANY post, even when you're asking for help. I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but you might want to look it up and see what it says. The main point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a pattern, after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same comments and lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them interesting in the past. I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree with me. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.orgwith a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Frank Lin PIATfp...@klabs.be wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 17:40 +0800, 明覺 wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks Let's throw some data into this discussion: [..] Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one. I have quickly analyzed the files in my /usr/bin: 235 shell script 71 python programs 241 perl programs 986 ELF programs So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks Which company would hire a programmer that is unwilling to learn/use anything but C/C++? Your employability is low, and it will get lower and lower. Sorry for telling you the truth, but you can't live in a world with only C/C++ I'm looking for a job, and the title of my resume is Asm, C, C++ programmer, if I can find a job, I win; if I cannot, you win. :) Franklin -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Richard Hectorrich...@walnut.gen.nz wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 12:21 -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote: ... cliche Beggers can't be choosers. /cliche you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to you! A rose by any other name is still a rose. You can call yourself a chooser, but your actions show you to be a begger. Many people would say the same about people like me who refuse to have any more dealings than necessary with Windows. There's room for people with ideals. IIRC RMS prefers software to be written in C (not C++; they're different languages) for similar reasons. thank you for the information, but I like C++ for its object oriented, maybe it's because i'm too influenced by C# and .net framework; but for bottom and startup code, I'd prefer asm and C. Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:52:41 -0400 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com wrote: ... Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to parse and output XML. But I wanted to learn more, so I insisted on doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but I wanted to learn. Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers? What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the waste of time those scripts languages bring to us programmers -- they exist to SAVE time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution in C. Interesting; here's a different perspective (I'm not a serious enough coder to go on the record with an opinion): http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001145.html Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jochen Schulzm...@well-adjusted.de wrote: 明覺: thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++. This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a dynamic type is just a memory type. I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language, which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and avoid all the overlappings among different languages. to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures) is not even turing complete! I surely dare to complain sql, it's a programming languge with all the general functions such as string processing, can't you hear the complaint from most programmers? microsoft has even replaced sql programming by .net framework. If you think I complain sql and other languages just because they are unlike C, you are too hard to communicate with. If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them. J. -- Nothing is as I planned it. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpAuXEACgkQ+AfZydWK2zkcCACdFwBDimeLaDsEmUMKaS+m538u ZcIAnRMQmtw186Ogzhud8Cx5GzZ9V2uN =ZQgK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Lisi Reiszlisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote: I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like it? I only suggest you not ignore my quetsion, of cause you can deny my suggestion. b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest. Well, I dislike microsoft, but I'm using Vista; I dislike perl and python in debian, but I'm using debian; I dislike the web browser in gNewSense, but I'm using gNewSense. I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very, very grateful to the developers. Being grateful doesn't mean I agree with them totally, it's a so simple logic. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote: 明覺: thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++. This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? Function-objects. (Examples in STL.) What about higher order functions, Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I think; In Boost anyway.) pattern matching, That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using templates) or slowly and painfully. dynamic typing? Bah. As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be static. Type errors should be detected before run time. [I'm only willing to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)] Still. C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite unfortunate, but are language choices. In comparision, it would be fairly impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too. I don't agree with the OP, though. Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a lot) of man-hours. CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages. I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and Lisp. teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based languages. ;)/tease Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Henning Follmannhfollm...@itcfollmann.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:39:53AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com: [...] Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the different reasons for different languages. EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose. I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT purpose Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will be C#, I guess. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think it's C/C++. Oh boy, I call BS! linq by no means replaces sql. It maybe a layer on top of (also) sql. But even the .NET (NOT c#!!) is not coherent. An MS does not gravitate only to c#. Linq is to replace sql from the bottom, select ... from... where has been a part of the C#(.net framework) language itself, and there is even a more formal way to write the select...from...where in C#, not on top of anything else, even store procedure for sql server can be programmed and deployed in C# already. [...] -- Henning Follmann | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com it consultant | www.itcfollmann.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 23, 2009, at 8:32 PM, 明覺 wrote: ... I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but you might want to look it up and see what it says. The main point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a pattern, after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same comments and lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them interesting in the past. I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree with me. You're talking about something serious, but, as many have pointed out to you here, and as I've pointed out to you several times in private emails, what you think is interesting is not really of interest to the rest of the programming world, and especially to those with experience -- and the more experience one has, from what I can tell, the less they seem to find that issue interesting. Most are not as much interested in your thoughts as they are in helping you see how you've boxed yourself into an area so small and esoteric that if you continue on your current path, your work will be of little interest to anyone but yourself. As to who is interested in your thoughts, it goes both ways. You continually reject any comments that disagree with you as valueless or as wrong and insist that you are right. If you treat others, especially those with much more experience than you, like that, then why are they going to be interested in your comments? Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 23, 2009, at 8:34 PM, 明覺 wrote: On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Frank Lin PIATfp...@klabs.be wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 17:40 +0800, 明覺 wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks Let's throw some data into this discussion: [..] Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one. I have quickly analyzed the files in my /usr/bin: 235 shell script 71 python programs 241 perl programs 986 ELF programs So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks Which company would hire a programmer that is unwilling to learn/use anything but C/C++? Your employability is low, and it will get lower and lower. Sorry for telling you the truth, but you can't live in a world with only C/C++ I'm looking for a job, and the title of my resume is Asm, C, C++ programmer, if I can find a job, I win; if I cannot, you win. :) Finding a job is a pain, but the real question is: Can you keep a job and not have to keep job swapping and continue to feed and clothe yourself and possibly provide for a family if you ever want one or continue, year after year, to pay your way in this world if you have trouble keeping the jobs you find. And as for looking for a job, do you want to share why you're currently out of a job? Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote: ... I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and Lisp. teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based languages. ;)/tease Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like. The more I read in this thread, the more I wonder -- does anyone here have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s? I mean, seriously, GET A LIFE. It's just a programming language. GET A LIFE. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
明覺 wrote: dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a dynamic type is just a memory type. I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language, which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and avoid all the overlappings among different languages. Spoken like a true newbie with absolutely no idea what he's talking about - but is 110% sure he knows more than several million programmers all over the world with much more programming experience. You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages. There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and so on to build things. And I very much doubt your attitude is helping you get a job. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote: You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages. There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and so on to build things. Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying... One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them, One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie. (just kidding folks. ;) -- Dale Harris rod...@maybe.org rod...@gmail.com /.-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/23 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote: 明覺: thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++. This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? Function-objects. (Examples in STL.) What about higher order functions, Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I think; In Boost anyway.) pattern matching, That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using templates) or slowly and painfully. dynamic typing? Bah. As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be static. Type errors should be detected before run time. [I'm only willing to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)] Still. C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite unfortunate, but are language choices. In comparision, it would be fairly impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too. I don't agree with the OP, though. Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a lot) of man-hours. CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages. I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and Lisp. teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based languages. ;)/tease Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like. You (uncompromisingly) prefer something you don't even know? And are (insistently) rejecting things you don't? Is that what you said? -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
In 752a747f-7c2d-4f79-92e5-915e15df0...@halblog.com, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote: I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and Lisp. teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based languages. ;)/tease [...] modify the g++ compilers as I like. If you want to modify gcc, you'll probably want to learn LISP since it uses a LISP-liek language internally for certain things. [D]oes anyone here have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s? It was posted on /. today. In any case, for a certain type of programmer, learning a new programming language is like discovering a new author, composer, or artist. The better languages have a fingerprint of beauty that is visible in each of the better programs written in the language. Of course, some languages (INTERCAL comes to mind) just make the brain hurt. Even those can sometimes teach you something, but are best avoided for real work. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com: I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice, but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman. Don't waste people's time. Ever. yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and trying to figure out the best way. You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do the same thing. Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to say the same thing? If you don't understand them both well, you might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language versus the other. 飄飄何所似, 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it 'just the same thing?' It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog in a well, saying look how small the sky is! A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages. Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need English to be the world official language, I believe no one will agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English, Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese have to learn English. I value every good concept in every language, but please add that good concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; or, I can reference another language so that I can improve my language, but please do not force me to use a new one. The way computers working is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept in one language to another. The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn and use it from the start to end. I'm perhaps a junior programmer myself. I can and have used C and Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized that different languages do different things much more easily than others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done. but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt, C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages. It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way! Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to parse and output XML. But I wanted to learn more, so I insisted on doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but I wanted to learn. Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers? What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the waste of time those scripts languages bring to us programmers -- they exist to SAVE time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution in C. I want to integrate perl into C/C++. You keep coming back to this argument that I hope one day I will be able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like. An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the functionality of a
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote: ... I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and Lisp. teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based languages. ;)/tease Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like. The more I read in this thread, the more I wonder -- does anyone here have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s? I mean, seriously, GET A LIFE. It's just a programming language. GET A LIFE. Hal http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii137/Alembic-/Videos/?action=viewcurrent=SNL-WilliamShatner-GetALife.flv -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:51 PM, Dale Harris wrote: On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote: You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages. There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and so on to build things. Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying... One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them, One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie. (just kidding folks. ;) No he's not. Hal (Who had the same thought in his mind on reading the idea of one language for all purposes.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:53:14 -0500 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com wrote: [lots of stuff snipped] Reminder to everyone: please trim quotes. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Dale Harris wrote: On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote: You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages. There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and so on to build things. Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying... One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them, One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie. (just kidding folks. ;) ROFLMAO! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote: 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com: I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a debian user. Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice, but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman. Don't waste people's time. Ever. yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and trying to figure out the best way. No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you that you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, But you're wrong and I'm right. You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do the same thing. Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to say the same thing? If you don't understand them both well, you might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language versus the other. 飄飄何所似, 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it 'just the same thing?' It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog in a well, saying look how small the sky is! A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages. Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need English to be the world official language, I believe no one will agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English, Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese have to learn English. Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every level. In this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it beyond any boundary of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into it more, but why? You'll just say, But I'm right and you're not. I value every good concept in every language, No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've been told dozens of times. but please add that good concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do nothing -- except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how taxes work in your country). You make it sound like a chore to learn a new language. For a true programmer it isn't. Learning a new language, for a real and true programmer, is and adventure. It's a chance to approach all problems from yet another perspective. I learned most languages in a few hours or days. When I first started looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it, working with other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're being forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field. But after reading that line, I wonder Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks like you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't have to learn languages you don't want to learn. I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth. or, I can reference another language so that I can improve my language, but please do not force me to use a new one. Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, don't learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, don't be surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! Honestly, that you can even talk about being forced to learn a language, that you even have that as a concept in your brain, says even more about you. It tells us you don't want to learn something new. It tells us you don't want to explore. It tells us you see programming more as a chore than an art or challenge. It also says that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a programmer. The way computers working is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept in one language to another. Do you have any clue, when you make a statement like that, just how much it shows everyone that
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Am Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:13:29 +0800 schrieb 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like. Sorry for the question, but how old are you? I think I also had similar ambitions when I was 13... Andreas signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:51:34 -0400 Dale Harris rod...@gmail.com wrote: Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying... One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them, One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie. (just kidding folks. ;) Sure you are. One suggestion, though; it should read, ...where /even/ the shadows lie. It's so much more true-to-life. Cybe R. Wizard -- It was like a visit by Don Corleone. I expected to find a bloody computer monitor in my bed the next day. Mark Andreessen of Netscape regarding a visit from microsoft. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is pretty much no. He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on this list for a while. As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for his opinions. Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to share. I don't agree with him that a one programming language system would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries this endeavor. “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw. The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line stay about the same. The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly, c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a major advantage. On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural system. H. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 09:13:29AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like. Paraphrasing from memory of the Wikipedia article on Alan Turing. Turing was interested in machine intelligence - one of his suggestions was that you teach a computer to play chess, another was that you should teach a computer to speak English (both, I think, in the article in Mind in 1950). He began to write a program to play chess in 1948 but had no computer to run it. In 1952 he played a match against his colleague where _he_ was the computer running his program. It took half an hour per move and he was eventually beaten. The program was apparently finally good enough to beat his colleague's wife. The hope that you'll be able to teach a computer enough to speak English now seems incredibly naive but is more than good enough as a goal when you're essentially inventing the idea of the computer and its uses and have one of the three or four working computers in the world: it's easy to be optimistic when you don't know how hard the scope of the problem really is. Learning all the computer languages within a modern Linux distribution to force-fit their concepts into one language, retaining their strengths (and presumably eliminating their weaknesses/problems as you go) and then modifying the gcc compiler appropriately? Russell Coker on Planet.debian had a post yesterday or so where he pointed to the very wise advice he'd been given, essentially the people who write compilers and toolchains are smarter/better programmers than you are: if you think you've found a bug in their compiler, its almost always in your code. Alan Turing died in 1954: this discussion is the first and only time I've seen your name. All the best, AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? (This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just this initial email.) FYI: perl: C program python: C program (ba)sh: C program ruby: C program sed: C program awk: C program the list continues... And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language? How are you going to build your code? I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own compiler by asm if I do not like gcc. What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No more internet? :-) Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages, I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript. On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29) is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To quote some more from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code: A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55 million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to develop. Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-) why don't you ask this question to debian or Bill Gates when they just started their work? Is microsoft built by the one person Bill Gates? Is bebian developed by the one person Ian? Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life. Cheers, Hilco -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote: ... I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew more than I did. If I refused to learn from people on this and other lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at the keyboard. I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even years, by listening to those with experience. You don't seem to want to listen to the experience of many. Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them all yourself ;-) Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the jobs you feel like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better. Don't forget to live. Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I hope you can figure out the meaning ... I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about tought me also about those I do know something about and also tought me what I don't want to do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you realize how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish. I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if computers hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui, whatever) has never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on that matter ;-) I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c++, java, matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...), assembly, basic, pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the concultion that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a couple of days instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or twice) and go out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or whatever, I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it. If I do not change the reality, I will suffer till I'm dying; If I try to change the reality, maybe i will just suffer 20 years, and rest for my last 20 years. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
* 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python) should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can decide wether you can live without them. Sebastian -- Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. | _ ASCII ribbon campaign Karl Marx | ( ) against HTML e-mail s...@sti@N GÜNTHER | X against M$ attachments mailto:sam...@guenther-roetgen.de | / \ www.asciiribbon.org pgpwtZOcYZvAV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
* 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]: I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be able to modify them someday in the future. thanks Well that is not very broadminded... And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages. BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly they are not programming gurus... Sebastian -- Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. | _ ASCII ribbon campaign Karl Marx | ( ) against HTML e-mail s...@sti@N GÜNTHER | X against M$ attachments mailto:sam...@guenther-roetgen.de | / \ www.asciiribbon.org pgpfobDt69bTR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
Sebastian Günther wrote: * 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python) should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can decide wether you can live without them. Sebastian But aren't perl or python packages just metapackages acting like glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them will have any effect on the libs already installed. And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl stuff ? aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but were dragged in as dependencies. Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) ) Tom -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks Let's throw some data into this discussion: LXDE is a rather minimalistic desktop. IceWM is an example of a resonable (not-so-bloated) window manager. $ aptitude why lxde perl i lxde Depends xarchiver i A xarchiver Depends libpango1.0-0 (= 1.20.3) i A libpango1.0-0 Depends libpango1.0-common (= 1.20.5-3+lenny1) i A libpango1.0-common Depends defoma (= 0.11.1) i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16) $ aptitude why icewm perl i icewm Depends libfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0) i A libfontconfig1 Depends fontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3) i A fontconfig-conf Depends ttf-dejavu | ttf-bitstream-vera | ttf-freefont | gsf ig onts-x11 i A ttf-freefontDepends defoma i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16) So on the client side the dependency is basically due to defoma (DEbian FOnts MAnager). On the server side: $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl i A xserver-xorg Dependsxserver-xorg-core (= 2:1.4-3) i A xserver-xorg-core Dependslibdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2) i A libdbus-1-3 Recommends dbus i A dbus Dependsadduser i adduser Suggests perl-modules i perl-modules Dependsperl (= 5.10.0-1) In this case we don't have a strict dependency. Not even a recommendation. 'adduser' preffers to have a more complete perl installation around. But, well, this is slightly the wrong question (or the right. Depending on how you think about it). 'perl' and 'perl-modules' include most of the bloat of the perl package that should not get into the base system. If we slightly rephrase the question, to satisfy the purists: $ aptitude why lxde perl-base i lxde Depends lxde-core (= 0.3.2.1+svn20080509-5) i A lxde-core Depends pcmanfm (= 0.3.9.5) i A pcmanfm Depends hal i A hal Depends adduser i adduser Depends perl-base (= 5.6.0) $ aptitude why icewm perl-base i icewm Dependslibfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0) i A libfontconfig1Dependsfontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3) i A fontconfig-config Dependsucf (= 0.29) i A ucf Dependsdebconf (= 1.5.19) i debconf PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4) Or to make things clear: $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl-base i A xserver-xorg Dependsdebconf (= 0.5) | debconf-2.0 i debconf PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4) Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks Let's throw some data into this discussion: LXDE is a rather minimalistic desktop. IceWM is an example of a resonable (not-so-bloated) window manager. $ aptitude why lxde perl i lxde Depends xarchiver i A xarchiver Depends libpango1.0-0 (= 1.20.3) i A libpango1.0-0 Depends libpango1.0-common (= 1.20.5-3+lenny1) i A libpango1.0-common Depends defoma (= 0.11.1) i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16) $ aptitude why icewm perl i icewm Depends libfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0) i A libfontconfig1 Depends fontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3) i A fontconfig-conf Depends ttf-dejavu | ttf-bitstream-vera | ttf-freefont | gsf ig onts-x11 i A ttf-freefontDepends defoma i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16) So on the client side the dependency is basically due to defoma (DEbian FOnts MAnager). On the server side: $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl i A xserver-xorg Dependsxserver-xorg-core (= 2:1.4-3) i A xserver-xorg-core Dependslibdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2) i A libdbus-1-3 Recommends dbus i A dbus Dependsadduser i adduser Suggests perl-modules i perl-modules Dependsperl (= 5.10.0-1) In this case we don't have a strict dependency. Not even a recommendation. 'adduser' preffers to have a more complete perl installation around. But, well, this is slightly the wrong question (or the right. Depending on how you think about it). 'perl' and 'perl-modules' include most of the bloat of the perl package that should not get into the base system. If we slightly rephrase the question, to satisfy the purists: $ aptitude why lxde perl-base i lxde Depends lxde-core (= 0.3.2.1+svn20080509-5) i A lxde-core Depends pcmanfm (= 0.3.9.5) i A pcmanfm Depends hal i A hal Depends adduser i adduser Depends perl-base (= 5.6.0) $ aptitude why icewm perl-base i icewm Dependslibfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0) i A libfontconfig1Dependsfontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3) i A fontconfig-config Dependsucf (= 0.29) i A ucf Dependsdebconf (= 1.5.19) i debconf PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4) Or to make things clear: $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl-base i A xserver-xorg Dependsdebconf (= 0.5) | debconf-2.0 i debconf PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4) Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org thank you for the perfect analysis! so does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM, thveillon.debianthveillon.deb...@googlemail.com wrote: Sebastian Günther wrote: * 明�X (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]: I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system, and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager? thanks # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python) should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can decide wether you can live without them. Sebastian But aren't perl or python packages just metapackages acting like glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them will have any effect on the libs already installed. And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl stuff ? yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like me. aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but were dragged in as dependencies. Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) ) yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should be optional, not necessory! Tom -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初�U言�Z寂�纾�二�U�X�^寂�纾�三�U喜心寂�纾�四�U出入息寂��于��欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不�贰⒔饷�,是���o上�U。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
2009/6/22 Sebastian Günther sam...@guenther-roetgen.de: * 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]: I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be able to modify them someday in the future. thanks Well that is not very broadminded... And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages. BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly they are not programming gurus... yes, they are not hard to learn, but if to learn it, it's a waste of time for me! they just make wrappers for C libraries, I do not like that! Sebastian -- Religion ist das Opium des Volkes. | _ ASCII ribbon campaign Karl Marx | ( ) against HTML e-mail ...@sti@N GÜNTHER | X against M$ attachments mailto:sam...@guenther-roetgen.de | / \ www.asciiribbon.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl? Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser extent. could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question. Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you provide some more details about your application? -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:45:46PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should be optional, not necessory! Such an attitude won't get you very far in a Linux ecosphere. If you're concerened about integration, you'll certainly have to know shell scripting (and a bit of awk, sed and alike). And unless your system is rather minimal, using a dynamic language such as perl or python is a huge time saver. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, 明覺 wrote: So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl? Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser extent. gnome depends on python, if other desktop manager doesn't depend on it, I will switch to that one. could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question. Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you provide some more details about your application? no problem with perl, I just want to keep my system simple so that I will be able to modify them someday in the future, without learning any other programming languages. thanks -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅,二禪覺觀寂滅,三禪喜心寂滅,四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫,是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
On Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 18:02:28 +0800, ?...@k4 wrote: no problem with perl, I just want to keep my system simple so that I will be able to modify them someday in the future, without learning any other programming languages. You will not be able to run a Debian desktop system without Perl. Ignore the problem. Concentrate on your C if thats all you care about. Assuming all the perl packages are bug-free having them installed you won't suddenly need to learn Perl to fix them. If they're not bug-free then Debian Developers will fix them. Steve -- Managed Anti-Spam Service http://mail-scanning.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org