Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 21:47:45 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: Brian wrote: I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. actually, after looking at some more installer documentation (http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/doc/internals/ch02.html) - I'm thinking it's more likely to be the base-installer package bootstrap-base has the package description 'Install the base system' and depends on base-installer. An installer log has Oct 7 16:48:43 main-menu[190]: INFO: Menu item 'bootstrap-base' selected followed by debootstrap installing the base system. An example is Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: Preparing to unpack .../archives/init_1.21_i386.deb ... Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: dpkg: regarding .../archives/init_1.21_i386.deb containing init, pre-dependency problem: Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: init pre-depends on systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: systemd-sysv is not installed. Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: sysvinit-core is not installed. Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: upstart is not installed. Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: dpkg: warning: ignoring pre-dependency problem! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141016131302.gf23...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Brian wrote: On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 21:47:45 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: Brian wrote: I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. actually, after looking at some more installer documentation (http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/doc/internals/ch02.html) - I'm thinking it's more likely to be the base-installer package bootstrap-base has the package description 'Install the base system' and depends on base-installer. An installer log has Oct 7 16:48:43 main-menu[190]: INFO: Menu item 'bootstrap-base' selected followed by debootstrap installing the base system. An example is Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: Preparing to unpack .../archives/init_1.21_i386.deb ... Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: dpkg: regarding .../archives/init_1.21_i386.deb containing init, pre-dependency problem: Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: init pre-depends on systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: systemd-sysv is not installed. Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: sysvinit-core is not installed. Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: upstart is not installed. Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: Oct 7 16:49:33 debootstrap: dpkg: warning: ignoring pre-dependency problem! Ahhh... Thanks. Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543fc938.5040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Brian wrote: I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. You can get lists of these packages with aptitude search ~prequired -F%p aptitude search ~pimportant -F%p Any idea which of those installs systemd, and if that can be modified through a preseed command? The init package is Priority: required. It pre-depends on systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart The first alternative is systemd-sysv, which pre-depends on systemd. There is no preseed command which can alter this. It may be that adding --include=sysvinit-core to debootstrap will cause the other branch of that dependency to be taken. I have not tested it. If that is the case, then the thing to preseed is base-installer/includes, the value of which is passed to --include. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On 2014-10-16 19:12 +0200, Joey Hess wrote: Brian wrote: The init package is Priority: required. It pre-depends on systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart The first alternative is systemd-sysv, which pre-depends on systemd. There is no preseed command which can alter this. It may be that adding --include=sysvinit-core to debootstrap will cause the other branch of that dependency to be taken. I have not tested it. Yesterday I tried to set up a minimal sid chroot that way, and it failed rather miserably since debootstrap installed systemd-sysv anyway and later tripped over sysvinit-core and systemd-sysv being in conflict. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87lhofnc8s@turtle.gmx.de
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Joey Hess wrote: Brian wrote: I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. You can get lists of these packages with aptitude search ~prequired -F%p aptitude search ~pimportant -F%p Any idea which of those installs systemd, and if that can be modified through a preseed command? The init package is Priority: required. It pre-depends on systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart The first alternative is systemd-sysv, which pre-depends on systemd. There is no preseed command which can alter this. It may be that adding --include=sysvinit-core to debootstrap will cause the other branch of that dependency to be taken. I have not tested it. If that is the case, then the thing to preseed is base-installer/includes, the value of which is passed to --include. Now THAT is the pointer I was looking for - I'll have to try that. Based on that, might it also make sense to preseed base-installer/excludes as well? I.e., base-installer/excludes systemd-sysv base-installer/includes sysvinit-core Thanks! Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54400916.1040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Thu 16 Oct 2014 at 13:12:12 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Brian wrote: There is no preseed command which can alter this. It may be that adding --include=sysvinit-core to debootstrap will cause the other branch of that dependency to be taken. I have not tested it. If that is the case, then the thing to preseed is base-installer/includes, the value of which is passed to --include. I could have been a bit less definitive with my response but I had read #668001 and the lack of success there helped frame it. My desire to have d-i install other than the default init system is not great so it's unlikely I will make testing it a priority, even if it is an interesting problem. :) The technique given by Jonathan Dowland works and appears to me to involve a minimal amount of work for someone wanting to end up booting a new install with sysvinit. Depending on what is being done, a late_command is available too. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141016183348.gh23...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On 10/16/2014 02:33 PM, Brian wrote: On Thu 16 Oct 2014 at 13:12:12 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: /snip/ The technique given by Jonathan Dowland works and appears to me to involve a minimal amount of work for someone wanting to end up booting a new install with sysvinit. Depending on what is being done, a late_command is available too. Tried to find the message you referred to, but there are many from John Dowland. Could you refer me to a date, or something? --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54401580.8030...@optonline.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Brian wrote: On Thu 16 Oct 2014 at 13:12:12 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Brian wrote: There is no preseed command which can alter this. It may be that adding --include=sysvinit-core to debootstrap will cause the other branch of that dependency to be taken. I have not tested it. If that is the case, then the thing to preseed is base-installer/includes, the value of which is passed to --include. I could have been a bit less definitive with my response but I had read #668001 and the lack of success there helped frame it. My desire to have d-i install other than the default init system is not great so it's unlikely I will make testing it a priority, even if it is an interesting problem. :) The technique given by Jonathan Dowland works and appears to me to involve a minimal amount of work for someone wanting to end up booting a new install with sysvinit. Depending on what is being done, a late_command is available too. Thanks Brian! Note: Digging just a little further, leads to #557322, re. debootstrap - which includes a patch. It all dates back to 2009, but I wonder if that patch ever made it into debootstrap. I might end up playing a bit and seeing if this all works if I manage to exclude ALL dependencies in the chain, then add them back in. Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54401b35.3060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Thu 16 Oct 2014 at 14:59:12 -0400, Doug wrote: On 10/16/2014 02:33 PM, Brian wrote: On Thu 16 Oct 2014 at 13:12:12 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: /snip/ The technique given by Jonathan Dowland works and appears to me to involve a minimal amount of work for someone wanting to end up booting a new install with sysvinit. Depending on what is being done, a late_command is available too. Tried to find the message you referred to, but there are many from John Dowland. Could you refer me to a date, or something? https://lists.debian.org/20141015124455.ga25...@chew.redmars.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/16102014221030.c542ec5f1...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Folks, So, it's been suggested here that one might write a preseed file to install sysvinit-core instead of systemd - but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to do that. What I've been able to determine so far: 1. There is now an essential metapackage called init that depends on one of systemd-sysv, or sysvinit-core, or upstart. (parenthetical question: What distinguishes a metapackage from a virtual package? Or perhaps, more precisely, why is init defined as a metapackage rather than a virtual package?) 2. In order to default to systemd, priorities have been set to: sysvinit:admin/optional sysvinit-core:admin/extra (see Bug Report #757650 override: sysvinit:admin/optional sysvinit-core:admin/extra) What I can't seem to figure out, after perusing what documentation I can find for the installer, including some code spelunking is: 3. Where during installation are init related packages actually installed (as close as I can figure out, it's during tasksel, as part of base packages that are installed regardless for all answers to the tasksel questions, including no packages). 4. How, in a preseed file, does one identify one's preferred choice for meeting the dependencies of a virtual package or metapackage (in this case, specifically installing sysvinit-core to satisfy init's dependencies) - either by: a. over-riding package priorities, or, b. making an explicit selection of the real package to meet a dependency Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks! Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543e5f34.6060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 07:49:08AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: 1. There is now an essential metapackage called init that depends on one of systemd-sysv, or sysvinit-core, or upstart. (parenthetical question: What distinguishes a metapackage from a virtual package? Or perhaps, more precisely, why is init defined as a metapackage rather than a virtual package?) A virtual package doesn't exist, but is listed in Provides: or Requires: fields in other packages. A metapackage does exist, but doesn't contain any files, so only it's metadata is relevant. You may need a metapackage rather than a virtual package for upgrade situations. A metapackage can provide: something else, can Replaces: something else, etc.; whereas a virtual package can't (because it doesn't exist.) 4. How, in a preseed file, does one identify one's preferred choice for meeting the dependencies of a virtual package or metapackage (in this case, specifically installing sysvinit-core to satisfy init's dependencies) - either by: a. over-riding package priorities, or, b. making an explicit selection of the real package to meet a dependency I *think* that if the dependency is already satisfied by another package selection, the resolver won't go out and try to satisfy it with another, as of yet unmarked package. So if you have d-i pkgsel/include string sysvinit-core systemd-shim or similar, the resolver shouldn't then select systemd to satisfy the init dependency, as it is already satisfied. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141015124455.ga25...@chew.redmars.org
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 07:49:08AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: 1. There is now an essential metapackage called init that depends on one of systemd-sysv, or sysvinit-core, or upstart. (parenthetical question: What distinguishes a metapackage from a virtual package? Or perhaps, more precisely, why is init defined as a metapackage rather than a virtual package?) A virtual package doesn't exist, but is listed in Provides: or Requires: fields in other packages. A metapackage does exist, but doesn't contain any files, so only it's metadata is relevant. You may need a metapackage rather than a virtual package for upgrade situations. A metapackage can provide: something else, can Replaces: something else, etc.; whereas a virtual package can't (because it doesn't exist.) Thanks for the clarification! Re. 4. How, in a preseed file, does one identify one's preferred choice for meeting the dependencies of a virtual package or metapackage (in this case, specifically installing sysvinit-core to satisfy init's dependencies) - either by: a. over-riding package priorities, or, b. making an explicit selection of the real package to meet a dependency I *think* that if the dependency is already satisfied by another package selection, the resolver won't go out and try to satisfy it with another, as of yet unmarked package. So if you have d-i pkgsel/include string sysvinit-core systemd-shim or similar, the resolver shouldn't then select systemd to satisfy the init dependency, as it is already satisfied. any thoughts re. conflicts between what's in, say tasksel tasksel/first standard, web-server and d-i pkgsel/include string sysvinit-core systemd-shim If I understand the installer, tasksel, the definition of the standard task description -- Task: standard Section: user Description: standard system utilities This task sets up a basic user environment, providing a reasonably small selection of services and tools usable on the command line. Packages: standard Test-new-install: mark skip --- properly, then the line tasksel tasksel/first standard, web-server is going to install all packages with priority standard. Which leads to a couple of questions: 1. Since the priorities for sysvinit and sysvinit-core are sysvinit:admin/optional sysvinit-core:admin/extra and I assume that the priority for systemd is set to standard, does the installer do: a. install systemd as part of the tasksel phase, the uninstall systemd and install sysvinit when it hits the pkgsel step, or, b. configure the list of packages for both the tasksel step and the pkgsel step before actually doing any installs? 2. If b., all is copacetic. If a., then are there any directives that might adjust the operation of the tasksel step, other than to either create a custom task description or bypass this step and designate all packages manually? [There's a line in the tasksel documentation that says Debian derived distributions can add a new .desc file to /usr/share/tasksel/ to add additional tasks, or modify/divert debian-tasks.desc to remove tasks but how one might do that at install time is not discussed anywhere that I can find.] 3. Is there a way to list all packages with priority standard - preferably via the package repo or one of the staging servers rather than having to first setup up a jessie installation and pulling in the source list? Thanks, Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543ea0e3.7020...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 12:29:23 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: any thoughts re. conflicts between what's in, say tasksel tasksel/first standard, web-server and d-i pkgsel/include string sysvinit-core systemd-shim I don't believe there are any. I think what happens is that standard and web-server get installed first (after any updates are done). The second command is then carried out. If I understand the installer, tasksel, the definition of the standard task description -- Task: standard Section: user Description: standard system utilities This task sets up a basic user environment, providing a reasonably small selection of services and tools usable on the command line. Packages: standard Test-new-install: mark skip --- properly, then the line tasksel tasksel/first standard, web-server is going to install all packages with priority standard. Ok. Which leads to a couple of questions: 1. Since the priorities for sysvinit and sysvinit-core are sysvinit:admin/optional sysvinit-core:admin/extra and I assume that the priority for systemd is set to standard, does the installer do: The priority of systemd is 'important'. a. install systemd as part of the tasksel phase, the uninstall systemd and install sysvinit when it hits the pkgsel step, or, systemd-sysv is installed as part of installing the base system. systemd is there when tasksel is called. b. configure the list of packages for both the tasksel step and the pkgsel step before actually doing any installs? This. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141015181328.gd23...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Thanks Brian. See follow-up question embedded below. Brian wrote: On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 12:29:23 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: any thoughts re. conflicts between what's in, say tasksel tasksel/first standard, web-server and d-i pkgsel/include string sysvinit-core systemd-shim I don't believe there are any. I think what happens is that standard and web-server get installed first (after any updates are done). The second command is then carried out. If I understand the installer, tasksel, the definition of the standard task description -- Task: standard Section: user Description: standard system utilities This task sets up a basic user environment, providing a reasonably small selection of services and tools usable on the command line. Packages: standard Test-new-install: mark skip --- properly, then the line tasksel tasksel/first standard, web-server is going to install all packages with priority standard. Ok. Which leads to a couple of questions: 1. Since the priorities for sysvinit and sysvinit-core are sysvinit:admin/optional sysvinit-core:admin/extra and I assume that the priority for systemd is set to standard, does the installer do: The priority of systemd is 'important'. a. install systemd as part of the tasksel phase, the uninstall systemd and install sysvinit when it hits the pkgsel step, or, systemd-sysv is installed as part of installing the base system. systemd is there when tasksel is called. So where in base system is systemd installed? This is the list of packages in base (from the source for the jessie version of debian-installer/build/pkg-lists/base as of yesterday): busybox-udeb anna archdetect cdebconf-udeb cdebconf-priority di-utils di-utils-reboot di-utils-shell libdebconfclient0-udeb libdebian-installer4-udeb libnss-dns-udeb lowmemcheck main-menu rootskel udpkg rescue-check env-preseed pciutils-udeb #include udev libkmod2-udeb [linux] kldutils-udeb [kfreebsd] Any idea which of those installs systemd, and if that can be modified through a preseed command? The only entry in there that looks like it might include systemd would be a dependency of the #include udev line, but udev just loads udev-udeb, and systemd isn't in any of its dependencies. Thoughts? b. configure the list of packages for both the tasksel step and the pkgsel step before actually doing any installs? This. Thanks, Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543ecc50.8040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 03:34:40PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: Thoughts? I'm drawing blanks at the moment, but I'm glad you are looking at this. I'll see if I can poke about a bit Tomorrow. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141015204038.ge1...@chew.redmars.org
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Mi, 15 oct 14, 12:29:23, Miles Fidelman wrote: 3. Is there a way to list all packages with priority standard - preferably via the package repo or one of the staging servers rather than having to first setup up a jessie installation and pulling in the source list? You don't need a full Jessie install, only to update (not upgrade) against Jessie sources. It should be enough to set APT::Default-Release to your release to prevent apt wanting to upgrade you to Jessie, but you could also pin it to -1 or just add the source only to do the query and then remove it again. Other than that I can only think of parsing the Packages file, which is easily obtainable from any mirror. grep-dctrl from dctrl-tools would be one tool to do that. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 15:34:40 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: So where in base system is systemd installed? This is the list of packages in base (from the source for the jessie version of debian-installer/build/pkg-lists/base as of yesterday): [A little snipping] I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. You can get lists of these packages with aptitude search ~prequired -F%p aptitude search ~pimportant -F%p Any idea which of those installs systemd, and if that can be modified through a preseed command? The init package is Priority: required. It pre-depends on systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart The first alternative is systemd-sysv, which pre-depends on systemd. There is no preseed command which can alter this. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141015223911.ge23...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Brian wrote: On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 15:34:40 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: So where in base system is systemd installed? This is the list of packages in base (from the source for the jessie version of debian-installer/build/pkg-lists/base as of yesterday): [A little snipping] I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. Is not bootstrap-base only for building the installer image, not the target system? Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543f2109.3030...@meetinghouse.net
Re: preseeding question (yes, re. systemd / sysvinit-core)
Brian wrote: On Wed 15 Oct 2014 at 15:34:40 -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: So where in base system is systemd installed? This is the list of packages in base (from the source for the jessie version of debian-installer/build/pkg-lists/base as of yesterday): [A little snipping] I'd suggest that the principal udeb package to consider as responsible for installing the base system is bootstrap-base. It runs debootstrap. Debian Policy specifies the base packages as being of Priority: required and Priority: important. actually, after looking at some more installer documentation (http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/doc/internals/ch02.html) - I'm thinking it's more likely to be the base-installer package Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543f23c1.1080...@meetinghouse.net
