Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On 2021/04/01 17:57, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:50:15PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: >> The first option is one option, the others are different and less >> strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a >> blackmail > > I would disagree. Especially, given that the first attempt to > "sign on behalf of the Debian" - was without a GR at all. That's simply not true. No one who has any authority whatsoever has attempted something like this. The first I've seen of any formal move to make an official contribution to that document on behalf of Debian was in that GR. -Jonathan
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On April 1, 2021 10:33:02 PM GMT+05:30, Steve McIntyre wrote: >On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 07:30:10PM +0300, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: >>On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 05:12:55PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >>> *No* attempt has been made to sign that open letter on behalf of the >>> project. >> >>https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00061.html >>>8 >>I am sure there is a precedent of a position statement being announced >>without having a formal vote about it, but I cannot find it at the >>moment. >>>8--- >>By DD, yes. >> >>Unfortunaly, this wasn't started in the -private@, so the net will >>remember. > >Sigh. You're reading that totally wrong. Gunnar was talking about >*precedent* here, i.e. thinking that a public statement might have >happened without GR in the past. *NOT* in this particular case. Please >listen to what people are telling you. Also the mentioned mail was a question for DPL candidates on how they will react, not a suggestion to do that. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 07:30:10PM +0300, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: >On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 05:12:55PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> *No* attempt has been made to sign that open letter on behalf of the >> project. > >https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00061.html >>8 >I am sure there is a precedent of a position statement being announced >without having a formal vote about it, but I cannot find it at the >moment. >>8--- >By DD, yes. > >Unfortunaly, this wasn't started in the -private@, so the net will >remember. Sigh. You're reading that totally wrong. Gunnar was talking about *precedent* here, i.e. thinking that a public statement might have happened without GR in the past. *NOT* in this particular case. Please listen to what people are telling you. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "I used to be the first kid on the block wanting a cranial implant, now I want to be the first with a cranial firewall. " -- Charlie Stross
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 05:12:55PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > *No* attempt has been made to sign that open letter on behalf of the > project. https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00061.html >8 I am sure there is a precedent of a position statement being announced without having a formal vote about it, but I cannot find it at the moment. >8--- By DD, yes. Unfortunaly, this wasn't started in the -private@, so the net will remember.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Forgot to reply to that, wich is actually super important. Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 18:57:12+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:50:15PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > The first option is one option, the others are different and less > > strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a > > blackmail > > I would disagree. Especially, given that the first attempt to > "sign on behalf of the Debian" - was without a GR at all. This is not at all what happened. Someone asked if we were willing to share a thought on this and who could bear it. Almost immediately, almost all replies were "this should go through a GR, because no part of the Consitution grants noone with the right to make such a statement". There was no attempt to skip any process. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 18:57:12+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:50:15PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > The first option is one option, the others are different and less > > strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a > > blackmail > > I would disagree. Especially, given that the first attempt to > "sign on behalf of the Debian" - was without a GR at all. > > > And it's the flaw in your train of thought : to believe that I'm > > defending anyone specific or a crusade. > > > > I actually never say anything about "RMS is transphobic". > > That was part of his charges in https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ > The second sentence. Have you read me tell anywhere that I agree with this letter or that I'll vote for "Choice 1"? I'm pretty sure nope, because I do not think that and I am confident I never said that. > Fine, if you disagree with this, that wasn't clear for me. I did not say I disagree. I said that I made no statement of the sorts, mostly because I did not look into any archive to see whether or not he had transphobic judgements. > What was: you did reject entire opinion, referenced above, based on some > random part of it. That's a very biased approach. (Especially, > given that the mentioned person may be an expert in field of > feelings of trans people. But not a famous conspiracy theorist.) I am sorry but I can't and won't give any sort of credit to an article using conspirationist mechanism at the bare beginning without any concrete evidence to back these conspirationnist allegations. > That's why I have doubts, that supporters of the rms-open-letter in > the Debian do really care about feelings of people they pretend to > defend from dr horrible (also known as RMS). Should I give credit to one trans person saying RMS isn't having transphobic behaviours or ideas or should I give credit to many people including some trans saying that he does? -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Fears Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Hello, On 01.04.21 15:52, Pasha wrote: On Thu, 2021-04-01 at 15:38 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: Goals might evolve. It's also called "growing up". Now, if you tell me the goal of Debian changed from free OS to something else - it is not the reason I am using Debian. Did I say that or could this be your interpretation of my sentence? Debian has a constitution [0], a social contract [1], and further guiding principles [2][3][4]. The social contract is signed by Debian Developers. It states as a first point "Debian will remain 100% free". You might want to learn how Debian operates, it might help addressing the fears that you were speaking about. Ulrike [0] https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution [1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract [2] https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines [3] https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity [4] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 06:57:12PM +0300, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: >On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:50:15PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: >> The first option is one option, the others are different and less >> strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a >> blackmail > >I would disagree. Especially, given that the first attempt to >"sign on behalf of the Debian" - was without a GR at all. Oh FFS. You are *utterly* wrong here. In discussions with the DPL, several DDs agreed that we did not think he had the constitutional power to "sign" on behalf of Debian, even if he wanted to. That's what caused Steve Langasek to start the GR process in the first place. Following standard Debian practice, various people have proposed amendments and other ballot options for that same GR. *No* attempt has been made to sign that open letter on behalf of the project. Instead, a GR was started to allow DDs to make a decision on this matter. Do you understand that? That's all I'm going to say here. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember that there must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of the cable, one on the far end, and the goat, terminated over the SCSI chain with a silver-handled knife whilst burning *black* candles. --- Anthony DeBoer
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:50:15PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > The first option is one option, the others are different and less > strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a > blackmail I would disagree. Especially, given that the first attempt to "sign on behalf of the Debian" - was without a GR at all. > And it's the flaw in your train of thought : to believe that I'm > defending anyone specific or a crusade. > > I actually never say anything about "RMS is transphobic". That was part of his charges in https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ The second sentence. Fine, if you disagree with this, that wasn't clear for me. What was: you did reject entire opinion, referenced above, based on some random part of it. That's a very biased approach. (Especially, given that the mentioned person may be an expert in field of feelings of trans people. But not a famous conspiracy theorist.) That's why I have doubts, that supporters of the rms-open-letter in the Debian do really care about feelings of people they pretend to defend from dr horrible (also known as RMS).
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 10:46:16-0400, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:39:05PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > > Your statement tends to show likewise. My guess is that you tend to also > > look for the bad thing that is neither written or implied. > > > I was not looking for anything. The responses simply stood out as quite > possibly threatening, especially to someone who has felt hurt in a > particular instance as this. I agree it could be seen as threatening, but it was motivated by a reply I consider really inappropriate. When someone asks me to stop doing something, I either state clearly that I refuse for $reason, or I agree and stop. Replying "Or?" in a provocative manner is not ok. Anyway, my point is that we should avoid to consider that any request like that is a threat. > No matter, I'll discontinue my participation. Perhaps others will try > to help. > > I would make to you the same suggestion I made to Sergey: perhaps leave > the thread alone and enjoy your weekend. > > Regards, It's plausible that I'll stop sooner rather than later. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 16:58:25+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 03:38:03PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > You are systematically telling "i don't care" to what we say > > That's lie, I've not ignored your arguments so far. If you say so > > deciding that this is a blackmail and smearing campaign. > > I'd explained this in details. In case of doubts: it may be a > good campaign (e.g. I may be wrong and RMS is horrible) - but it's > a blackmail (i.e. the first option) as it's now. The first option is one option, the others are different and less strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a blackmail, and as you pretend to know how Debian works, I can only assume that you are perfectly aware of it. Which makes me wonder what goal you pursue trying to predent that this GR is a smearing/blackmail campaign. > > I stand my point, this "letter" is pure complotist BS. > > Sure. As I quoted before, it's not "yours" trans) > > You even don't care about opinions of people you pretend to defend > in your crusade... And it's the flaw in your train of thought : to believe that I'm defending anyone specific or a crusade. I actually never say anything about "RMS is transphobic". I said "RMS behaviour towards women and statements regarding child abuse, and the Epstein case are bad". You are the one bringing trans people in the thread we are uselessly having since the beginning. And, last but not least, I don't know the writer of the letter you refer to, I don't know if they are or are not trans, and whether they are or not doesn't mean they can't write any bullshit. Let's make a clear statement here : there are bullshitters and douchebags in all group of people. You can be a white cisgender heterosexual male and be a pure douchebag. You can be transgender person and be a pure douchebag. You can be a woman and be a pure douchebag. You can be a person of color and be a pure douchebag. You can be homosexual/pansexual/bisexual/whateversexual and be a pure douchebag. You can be any combination of the previously mentioned statuses and be a pure douchebag. And even if you are, this doesn't mean that the other people sharing an attribute or status with you also are douchebags. The reciprocal statement is also true, you can be whatever and not a douchebag. > > Debian produces the same free OS. > > Well, I'm still trying to hear users voice. For me, it seems they > may disagree with you. Your interpretation of [mostly silence] is quite enlightening. And I still don't see the point with the OS. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:39:05PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > Your statement tends to show likewise. My guess is that you tend to also > look for the bad thing that is neither written or implied. > I was not looking for anything. The responses simply stood out as quite possibly threatening, especially to someone who has felt hurt in a particular instance as this. No matter, I'll discontinue my participation. Perhaps others will try to help. I would make to you the same suggestion I made to Sergey: perhaps leave the thread alone and enjoy your weekend. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Sergey B Kirpichev, 2021-04-01 09:24 -0400: > It doesn't matter. The message is clear: do what we want or go out. Our message is "follow the guidelines we've set for behaviour towards each other or you're not welcome to interact with other members of the community"?! I'm... I'm truly shocked. That's just not the Debian I signed up for. > > I joined Debian because it is inclusive > > The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, > but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the project. And some of us who actually work on the project would really love to have a place where the tired argument that is "being accused of transphobia is an infringement on my freedom of expression" doesn't get brought up with no clear explanation every single time a conversation gets even a bit heated. I see no way that interferes with our goal of creating a free operating system, but maybe you're right and that's just a bit much of me to ask. In any case, if your plan here is to publicly leave the project to avoid "SJW Cancer"[1], can you please actually get around to doing that? I wouldn't want you to have to go through the crushing experience of ever having actually been subject to consequences. I know it can be really hard for people for whom being on the receiving end is something they've never had to go through and not something they constantly live with. (: Taowa [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00141.html -- Taowa (they) LOC FN35EM
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 09:38:58-0400, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 03:15:08PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 08:40:26-0400, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit : > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 01:58:49PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit : > > > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > > > >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > > > > >> > Please stop now. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Or?... > > > > > > > > > > > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I > > > > > >assume it was merely a request. > > > > > > > > > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > > > > > effective enough for some people. > > > > > > > > Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something > > > > strongly. > > > > > > > > I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights > > > > instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain. > > > > > > > So, then is everybody always wrong? > > > > > > Participants on Debian mailing lists calling for civility have been > > > accused of sealioning [0] (or similar bad-faith) not that long ago. > > > > > > Either: (a) everybody is expected to remain civil and act accordingly, > > > or, (b) everybody is allowed to escalate according to their own view of > > > the situation or their own personal feelings (e.g., frustration, > > > perceived opression, etc.). > > > > > > The situation where some are allowed or even encouraged to escalate > > > because they are expressing a "favored" or "right" opinion and others > > > are specifically targeted and decried for escalating (or even simply > > > calling for civility) because they are expressing a "disfavored" or > > > "wrong" opinion is a literal double-standard. We should be above that. > > > > My point is "when one asks another to stop something", it's not > > necessarily with a "or I'll slap you", "or I'll have you banned" or > > whatever you wanna think about. That's all. > > > "Please stop now" is a perfectly reasonable request (especially in this > case where Sergey persists in being difficult). "Please stop now, or I > will have you banned" is a threat, which creates a threatening > environment for the person, and which, incidentally, goes against the > code of conduct. Firstly, the threat of resorting to "legal means" to get something stopped is not considered as illegal, and I'm not sure it's against the CoC. The principle is to state that an unacceptable behaviour can lead to consequences. But here, no one said "please stop or we call the list police". Steve asked him to stop, period. And Sergey's reply was "Or?". Let alone the childish reply, the "Or" implies that he considers that this was a demand with atrocious consequences to suffer if he did not abide, while here it was a mere request. Your statement tends to show likewise. My guess is that you tend to also look for the bad thing that is neither written or implied. > Cetainly, we must have a way to address situations like this without > allowing them to create a toxic environment for everyone else and also > without creating a threatening environment for the individual creating > the potential disruption. In fact, this is the principal purpose of the > community team, as I understand it. Not being confident in my own > ability to properly deal with a situation like "communicate a 'please > stop this or else' in a non-threatening way", I would involve the > community team. Steve being part of that team, I think him asking to "stop" was quite fine and adapted. That being said, the way to address the situation is, at a last resort, asking for a ban from the lists. But it's a last resort, and I'd rather not consider it as an easy way to get some rest. > > I don't see how your answer is relevant to that. > > > > Regarding your last paragraph, it seems to me that many things you state > > here are subjective. When people are freewheeling they get remarks > > wherever they come from. But indeed, when some people express ideas > > against Debian's CoC, the reaction is stronger. This is not a double > > standard. It's just that there is a ruleset we try to work with, and > > those going against are more prone to get remarks. > > > > What a surprise. > > > > The statement "Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, > but here I assume it was merely a request." sounds very much > threatening. Perhaps only mildly threatening, but still threatening. Nope, it was a statement. The point is for him to realize that his childish "or?" is actually stupid because there could indeed be repercussions, but as I said, it was a mere request. > The addition of "Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests > aren't effective enough for some people." escalates the situation. The > fact that
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Well, I'm still trying to hear users voice. For me, it seems they may disagree with you. We could make a press release with an opinion poll attached… rather than pushing for a press release that wrongly implies that every debian contributor thinks the same way and agrees. Except that of course, if the poll gets the "wrong" result, then it will be because of bots and election scams (reminds you of anyone?). Certainly posting on debian-vote will not give many opinions from people who are using debian but are not involved in its creation. I have privately received emails from debian contributors who agreed with my email about how being pro-choice (in the context of abortion) somehow got twisted into being "ableist". I believe the best course of action would be to make no statement and let single contributors speak their mind if they want to; no official Debian opinion. I personally would not like to be co-opted and have someone other than myself state my opinion. Best.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On 4/1/21 15:52, Pasha wrote: Please speak only for yourself and not for "all Debian users", I doubt you know all of them :) Goals might evolve. It's also called "growing up". I started using Debian when I was in school. Now, if you tell me the goal of Debian changed from free OS to something else - it is not the reason I am using Debian. note: I personally also support the other cause. In future I fear that I might get an proprietary kernel with "apt-get upgrade" that is exclusively licensed for Debian because we are "growing up" and free OS/software is not to goal of Debian anymore. Lol. I am among those who weren't happy that GR got proposed, but how did you come from "we want to make some statement about a sexist leader" to "Debian is not going to be Free distro anymore"? Those are some mental gymnastics. Z OpenPGP_0x2E5C20BB37933BFD.asc Description: application/pgp-keys OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On 4/1/21 3:38 PM, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: Please speak only for yourself and not for "all Debian users", I doubt you know all of them :) Goals might evolve. It's also called "growing up". Or giving up Ever heard about the change curve? When change happens around us, we go through different phases coping with that change. On which part of the curve are you? https://www.mydigitalsurfari.de/wp-content/uploads/Unbenanntes-Notizbuch-3.jpg Yet some changes are effectively denied, forgotten, never made Not all changes are inevitable Your jpg is only part of the story :) PS: don't surge your wrath against me, I have not read the rest of the thread
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 03:38:03PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > You are systematically telling "i don't care" to what we say That's lie, I've not ignored your arguments so far. > deciding that this is a blackmail and smearing campaign. I'd explained this in details. In case of doubts: it may be a good campaign (e.g. I may be wrong and RMS is horrible) - but it's a blackmail (i.e. the first option) as it's now. > I stand my point, this "letter" is pure complotist BS. Sure. As I quoted before, it's not "yours" trans) You even don't care about opinions of people you pretend to defend in your crusade... > Debian produces the same free OS. Well, I'm still trying to hear users voice. For me, it seems they may disagree with you.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, 2021-04-01 at 15:38 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: > Sergey, > > On 01.04.21 15:24, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: > > > You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non- > > > members > > > > I'm trying to argue my position, instead of long reasonings about > > feelings of my opponents and so on. Is that wrong for the Debian > > now? > > To what goal are you trying to argue your position? You don't need to > send the answer to the list, it's an invitation to self-reflection. > > > Why? Because it's how you analyze counter-arguments. > > (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00412.html - a > > good > > example.) > > > > > I joined Debian because it is inclusive > > > > The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, > > but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the > > project. > > Please speak only for yourself and not for "all Debian users", I > doubt > you know all of them :) > > Goals might evolve. It's also called "growing up". > > Ever heard about the change curve? When change happens around us, we > go > through different phases coping with that change. On which part of > the > curve are you? > https://www.mydigitalsurfari.de/wp-content/uploads/Unbenanntes-Notizbuch-3.jpg > > > > Take care, > u. > > > > I joined Debian because it is inclusive > > > > The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, > > but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the > > project. > > Please speak only for yourself and not for "all Debian users", I > doubt > you know all of them :) > > Goals might evolve. It's also called "growing up". > I started using Debian when I was in school. Now, if you tell me the goal of Debian changed from free OS to something else - it is not the reason I am using Debian. note: I personally also support the other cause. In future I fear that I might get an proprietary kernel with "apt-get upgrade" that is exclusively licensed for Debian because we are "growing up" and free OS/software is not to goal of Debian anymore.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On 4/1/21 15:24, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non-members I'm trying to argue my position, instead of long reasonings about feelings of my opponents and so on. Is that wrong for the Debian now? You're not arguing, you're just "throwing" things and making noise in this list. You're also assuming bad faith from Debian members. Personally, I would already ban you, but Debian is still running in a circle called paradox of tolerance. If you feel hostility from Debian members, maybe it is you that is the issue - afterall, you're coming here and trying to influence our decision. Can you do that in Fedora? OpenSUSE? Any other community that you aren't part of? Why do you even feel the need to debate this in Debian? Maybe some wording somewhere is strong It doesn't matter. The message is clear: do what we want or go out. There is no clear message in a group of 2 people yet alone 1000+, especially when it comes to social issues (technical are hard too but not even remotely close as social ones). It is not that we are discussing someone who just joined the broad movement and made inappropriate comment (I yelled in Debian lists before and no one banned me yet, so there is a big tolerance here) - we are talking about a person who made it very uncomfortable for many (imagine rms commenting like that you mother/girlfriend/sister - would you really be okay with it?). Yet you miss the point that he is shitty towards women Not. It's you, will miss that point next time, if woman makes a similar support letter. So, you're accusing women here? I really don't know where is our bar yet for you to be banned from list, but this is already pretty low. Why? Because it's how you analyze counter-arguments. (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00412.html - a good example.) I joined Debian because it is inclusive The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the project. Sure, the same goal RMS and FSF tried to achieve, failed with Hurd and other things and then decided they will just be this orga that promotes things. Things change over time, so does Debian. Z OpenPGP_0x2E5C20BB37933BFD.asc Description: application/pgp-keys OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:10:32PM +0300, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 12:11:18PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > > effective enough for some people. > > Maybe it was not a polite request at all. Just another > blackmail, like the vote is, isn't? > Sergey, You are clearly frustrated by this and other discussions. I know how difficult that can be to deal with. Something that has worked for me in the past is to simply stop reading and participating in the threads which produce such feelings (or possibly all mailing lists if the temptation to return to the problematic thread is too great). You might consider doing something similar and perhaps enjoying your weekend. Mailing list discussion rarely change other people's opinions, but often do cause anxiety in those who participate in the discussions to an excessive degree. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 03:15:08PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 08:40:26-0400, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit : > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 01:58:49PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit : > > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > > >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > > > >> > Please stop now. > > > > >> > > > > >> Or?... > > > > > > > > > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I > > > > >assume it was merely a request. > > > > > > > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > > > > effective enough for some people. > > > > > > Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something > > > strongly. > > > > > > I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights > > > instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain. > > > > > So, then is everybody always wrong? > > > > Participants on Debian mailing lists calling for civility have been > > accused of sealioning [0] (or similar bad-faith) not that long ago. > > > > Either: (a) everybody is expected to remain civil and act accordingly, > > or, (b) everybody is allowed to escalate according to their own view of > > the situation or their own personal feelings (e.g., frustration, > > perceived opression, etc.). > > > > The situation where some are allowed or even encouraged to escalate > > because they are expressing a "favored" or "right" opinion and others > > are specifically targeted and decried for escalating (or even simply > > calling for civility) because they are expressing a "disfavored" or > > "wrong" opinion is a literal double-standard. We should be above that. > > My point is "when one asks another to stop something", it's not > necessarily with a "or I'll slap you", "or I'll have you banned" or > whatever you wanna think about. That's all. > "Please stop now" is a perfectly reasonable request (especially in this case where Sergey persists in being difficult). "Please stop now, or I will have you banned" is a threat, which creates a threatening environment for the person, and which, incidentally, goes against the code of conduct. Cetainly, we must have a way to address situations like this without allowing them to create a toxic environment for everyone else and also without creating a threatening environment for the individual creating the potential disruption. In fact, this is the principal purpose of the community team, as I understand it. Not being confident in my own ability to properly deal with a situation like "communicate a 'please stop this or else' in a non-threatening way", I would involve the community team. > I don't see how your answer is relevant to that. > > Regarding your last paragraph, it seems to me that many things you state > here are subjective. When people are freewheeling they get remarks > wherever they come from. But indeed, when some people express ideas > against Debian's CoC, the reaction is stronger. This is not a double > standard. It's just that there is a ruleset we try to work with, and > those going against are more prone to get remarks. > > What a surprise. > The statement "Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I assume it was merely a request." sounds very much threatening. Perhaps only mildly threatening, but still threatening. The addition of "Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't effective enough for some people." escalates the situation. The fact that the statements came from two different individuals against one individual makes it seem considerably more threatening than either statement taken in isolation. I don't know if you or anyone else tried to address Sergey directly off-list to let him know how his own statements might be problematic. But, the public thread seems to be heading toward an undesirable conclusion, rather than trying to change its course in a constructive way. In any event, this sort of thing is difficult. I think you were trying to help and maybe did not see your own statement as threatening. Sergey seems determined, though his objective is not clear. Either way, he is clearly very frustrated. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Sergey, On 01.04.21 15:24, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non-members I'm trying to argue my position, instead of long reasonings about feelings of my opponents and so on. Is that wrong for the Debian now? To what goal are you trying to argue your position? You don't need to send the answer to the list, it's an invitation to self-reflection. Why? Because it's how you analyze counter-arguments. (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00412.html - a good example.) I joined Debian because it is inclusive The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the project. Please speak only for yourself and not for "all Debian users", I doubt you know all of them :) Goals might evolve. It's also called "growing up". Ever heard about the change curve? When change happens around us, we go through different phases coping with that change. On which part of the curve are you? https://www.mydigitalsurfari.de/wp-content/uploads/Unbenanntes-Notizbuch-3.jpg Take care, u.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 16:24:10+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non-members > > I'm trying to argue my position, instead of long reasonings about > feelings of my opponents and so on. Is that wrong for the Debian now? You are systematically telling "i don't care" to what we say and deciding that this is a blackmail and smearing campaign. You're not trying to argue anything, you're just emulating a (pretty convincing fake) kid doing a tantrum. > > Maybe some wording somewhere is strong > > It doesn't matter. The message is clear: do what we want or go out. > > > Yet you miss the point that he is shitty towards women > > Not. It's you, will miss that point next time, if woman > makes a similar support letter. > > Why? Because it's how you analyze counter-arguments. > (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00412.html - a good > example.) I stand my point, this "letter" is pure complotist BS. > > I joined Debian because it is inclusive > > The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, > but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the project. Debian produces the same free OS. Debian as a Community is more than the OS, and people are coming there for reasons of their own. Whatever happens to the FSF/RMS GR, we will keep producing the same OS, and the anti-RMS letter won't be our next wallpaper in it. Please stop trying to mix topics. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non-members I'm trying to argue my position, instead of long reasonings about feelings of my opponents and so on. Is that wrong for the Debian now? > Maybe some wording somewhere is strong It doesn't matter. The message is clear: do what we want or go out. > Yet you miss the point that he is shitty towards women Not. It's you, will miss that point next time, if woman makes a similar support letter. Why? Because it's how you analyze counter-arguments. (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00412.html - a good example.) > I joined Debian because it is inclusive The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the project.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 08:40:26-0400, Roberto C. Sánchez a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 01:58:49PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit : > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > > >> > Please stop now. > > > >> > > > >> Or?... > > > > > > > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I > > > >assume it was merely a request. > > > > > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > > > effective enough for some people. > > > > Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something > > strongly. > > > > I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights > > instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain. > > > So, then is everybody always wrong? > > Participants on Debian mailing lists calling for civility have been > accused of sealioning [0] (or similar bad-faith) not that long ago. > > Either: (a) everybody is expected to remain civil and act accordingly, > or, (b) everybody is allowed to escalate according to their own view of > the situation or their own personal feelings (e.g., frustration, > perceived opression, etc.). > > The situation where some are allowed or even encouraged to escalate > because they are expressing a "favored" or "right" opinion and others > are specifically targeted and decried for escalating (or even simply > calling for civility) because they are expressing a "disfavored" or > "wrong" opinion is a literal double-standard. We should be above that. My point is "when one asks another to stop something", it's not necessarily with a "or I'll slap you", "or I'll have you banned" or whatever you wanna think about. That's all. I don't see how your answer is relevant to that. Regarding your last paragraph, it seems to me that many things you state here are subjective. When people are freewheeling they get remarks wherever they come from. But indeed, when some people express ideas against Debian's CoC, the reaction is stronger. This is not a double standard. It's just that there is a ruleset we try to work with, and those going against are more prone to get remarks. What a surprise. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 12:11:18PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > effective enough for some people. Maybe it was not a polite request at all. Just another blackmail, like the vote is, isn't?
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 01:58:49PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit : > > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > >> > Please stop now. > > >> > > >> Or?... > > > > > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I > > >assume it was merely a request. > > > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > > effective enough for some people. > > Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something > strongly. > > I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights > instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain. > So, then is everybody always wrong? Participants on Debian mailing lists calling for civility have been accused of sealioning [0] (or similar bad-faith) not that long ago. Either: (a) everybody is expected to remain civil and act accordingly, or, (b) everybody is allowed to escalate according to their own view of the situation or their own personal feelings (e.g., frustration, perceived opression, etc.). The situation where some are allowed or even encouraged to escalate because they are expressing a "favored" or "right" opinion and others are specifically targeted and decried for escalating (or even simply calling for civility) because they are expressing a "disfavored" or "wrong" opinion is a literal double-standard. We should be above that. Regards, -Roberto [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > >> > Please stop now. > >> > >> Or?... > > > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I > >assume it was merely a request. > > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > effective enough for some people. Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something strongly. I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : >> > Please stop now. >> >> Or?... > >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I >assume it was merely a request. Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't effective enough for some people. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "This dress doesn't reverse." -- Alden Spiess
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > > Please stop now. > > > > Or?... > > Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists I expected that. "Free" society as it is. Argements - do matter... > but here I assume it was merely a request. No, I'm sure.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 04:09:58+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 06:24:52PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you still are on a debian > > mailing list while you clearly stated you wanted to sever your ties with > > Debian. > > And what's wrong? Anyone can participate in the discussion, isn't? Oh sure, and no one forbade you to do so. But as you came make a tantrum on debian-devel some days ago about this telling you wanted to orphan all your packages and have nothing more to do with Debian, I'm reminding you of your wishes, because it's essential to have our needs satisfied to be happy. > One of "choices" - is a real blackmail for all FOSS communities: ban > rms or we will not interact with you. That affects people far outside > Debian, yes. Well, I think you give Debian way too much power. Anyway, I have better things to attend to in my daily life. As you seem stuck on your ideas, I'll leave you to these. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > Please stop now. > > Or?... Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I assume it was merely a request. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On 4/1/21 03:09, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 06:24:52PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you still are on a debian mailing list while you clearly stated you wanted to sever your ties with Debian. And what's wrong? Anyone can participate in the discussion, isn't? You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non-members and have one or two open (with some moderation so it doesn't turn into a hot mess) because you are way off the rails. One of "choices" - is a real blackmail for all FOSS communities: ban rms or we will not interact with you. That affects people far outside Debian, yes. Maybe some wording somewhere is strong, but I believe that we should discourage contact with any hostile communities - this includes the current FSF. As it seems to still hurt you Oh, don't care about my "feelings". Do care, please, about own arguments. E.g. obviously you have found "conspiracy theories" in the https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html Way off... Yet, you miss the point, that "RMS is NOT transphobic". That's an opinion of someone you are attempting to defend from rms, isn't? Or do you know better, of course? Yet you miss the point that he is shitty towards women, since ever. His return was a drop in the ocean of bad decisions. The same way someone at FSF and RMS himself felt the right to do this, the same way Debian and other communities have the right to severe ties with such communities. I joined Debian because it is inclusive, but that certainly doesn't mean we should include nor tolerate bad behavior, on contrary, I think we should become even more resolute to ban such elements from our own community sooner rather than later. Z OpenPGP_0x2E5C20BB37933BFD.asc Description: application/pgp-keys OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 06:24:52PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you still are on a debian > mailing list while you clearly stated you wanted to sever your ties with > Debian. And what's wrong? Anyone can participate in the discussion, isn't? One of "choices" - is a real blackmail for all FOSS communities: ban rms or we will not interact with you. That affects people far outside Debian, yes. > As it seems to still hurt you Oh, don't care about my "feelings". Do care, please, about own arguments. E.g. obviously you have found "conspiracy theories" in the https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html Yet, you miss the point, that "RMS is NOT transphobic". That's an opinion of someone you are attempting to defend from rms, isn't? Or do you know better, of course?
Re: Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> Please stop now. Or?...
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Sergey B Kirpichev, 2021-03-31 11:53 -0400: > "I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c) > > This trans is a wrong trans, isn't? huh? -- Taowa (they) LOC FN35EM
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
[...] > > > > Libreboot explanation can be helpful here: > > > > https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html > > I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal", "accused of defending rape > in an Orwellian smear campaign" and "orchestrated by mainstream media". Lucky you, as it goes deeper on such nonsene drama, then quickly escalating to some cheap conspiracy theories. It's sad too see the amount of distracion we're facing on this discussion. Bests, -- Tiago
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le mercredi 31 mars 2021 à 18:52:49+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal" ... > > Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist > > "I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c) > > This trans is a wrong trans, isn't? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you still are on a debian mailing list while you clearly stated you wanted to sever your ties with Debian. As it seems to still hurt you, I can't do more than suggest you to stop reading what we post here and to stop replying. I hope you understand my concern here is your well-being. Bests, -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 06:52:49PM +0300, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: >> I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal" ... >> Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist > >"I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c) > >This trans is a wrong trans, isn't? Sergey: I don't know where you're going down this rabbit hole, but I don't think it's helping the discussion at all. Please stop now. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal" ... > Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist "I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c) This trans is a wrong trans, isn't?
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le mercredi 31 mars 2021 à 16:41:50+0200, Pasha a écrit : > On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 11:59 +0200, Gard Spreemann wrote: > > > > Sergey B Kirpichev writes: > > > > > Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than > > > that". But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do > > > support?) > > > > Is this how you behave when discussing political matters in general > > too? > > "This one important problem isn't fully resolved, therefore we cannot > > discuss anything else"? Humans, and organizations consisting thereof, > > do > > not work on the basis of a totally ordered list of priorities. > > > > -- Gard > > > > Libreboot explanation can be helpful here: > > https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal", "accused of defending rape in an Orwellian smear campaign" and "orchestrated by mainstream media". Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist arguments are generally sophisms and therefore not worth a dime of anyone's time. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 11:59 +0200, Gard Spreemann wrote: > > Sergey B Kirpichev writes: > > > Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than > > that". But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do > > support?) > > Is this how you behave when discussing political matters in general > too? > "This one important problem isn't fully resolved, therefore we cannot > discuss anything else"? Humans, and organizations consisting thereof, > do > not work on the basis of a totally ordered list of priorities. > > -- Gard > Libreboot explanation can be helpful here: https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Sergey B Kirpichev writes: > Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than > that". But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do support?) Is this how you behave when discussing political matters in general too? "This one important problem isn't fully resolved, therefore we cannot discuss anything else"? Humans, and organizations consisting thereof, do not work on the basis of a totally ordered list of priorities. -- Gard signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> I do not understand what you mean by "why not?". Literally: "why not?" > The Debian Members are the most technical part of the Debian Community That's not true, given we have teams, that don't do a technical work at all. > I think there is a misunderstanding Yep. I meant, same it true for your opinions. > The Debian Project will maybe take a political position if the GR > outcomes allows it to do so So, next time in GR DD's may approve USA aggression in Venezuela? > And, being a Free Software-made OS doesn't forbid it to be more than that. Unfortunately, it's so. Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than that". But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do support?)
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On 30/03/2021 20:19, Steve Langasek wrote: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 06:56:49PM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote: >> Cancel "culture" arrived in Debian and it threatens the project: > https://davidblixtauthor.medium.com/cancel-culture-and-responsibility-b5b8065c3cbd While people should see repercussions for their actions, cancel culture does not permit a recovery. Piling on to a person of different viewpoint, or a person that is outright wrong, does not do much more than eliminate them. People must be allowed to change their opinions.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 20:27:56+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 07:10:17PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very > > long time > > Why not? I do not understand what you mean by "why not?". > > the most technical part of that community? > > That's your imagination, given you already ignored a decent part > of the community. The Debian Members are the most technical part of the Debian Community, whether you like it or not, it's not my imagination. And these "SJW" you refer to are Debian Members and henceforth mostly technical contributors of the project. > > Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here > > Not true as well. I think there is a misunderstanding of English. Either I failed to express myself correctly or you are failing to understand. Your opinion is not shared by all developers. Some may agree with your opinion but obviously some don't. > > this GR will be a good reality check. > > The outcome doesn't matter, as I said. The Debian project > do political decisions on behalf of it's contributors - that's > a reality. This is now for something different than for a free OS... Despite the many years of contributions you made to Debian, it seems to me that your understanding of the way the Project works is at odd with the reality, so I'll try one last time. The Debian Project will maybe take a political position if the GR outcomes allows it to do so, and if it does so it will take this political position on behalf of itself, with the approval of a "majority" of its voting member having expressed their opinion. And, being a Free Software-made OS doesn't forbid it to be more than that. And using Debian won't mean anything more than before this GR, even if the project were to tell the FSF that it won't work with it anymore and considers RMS as someone who should be removed from there. Because it is our right not to work with people we don't like. As I said, I wish you the best in your future endeavours which will not be around Debian, as far as you've stated previously. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 07:10:17PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very > long time Why not? > the most technical part of that community? That's your imagination, given you already ignored a decent part of the community. > Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here Not true as well. > this GR will be a good reality check. The outcome doesn't matter, as I said. The Debian project do political decisions on behalf of it's contributors - that's a reality. This is now for something different than for a free OS...
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 19:35:05+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and > > it's written to many places. > > For instance... > > https://www.debian.org/intro/people > > --->8- > People: who we are, what we do > Developers and contributors > > Debian is produced by almost a thousand active developers spread around the > world who volunteer in their spare time. Few of the developers have actually > met in person. Communication is done primarily through e-mail (mailing lists > at lists.debian.org) and IRC (#debian channel at irc.debian.org). > > The complete list of official Debian members can be found on nm.debian.org, > where membership is managed. A broader list of Debian contributors can be > found on contributors.debian.org. > ->8--- > > Can you see here a clear distinction: we do political statements for DD > only? Well, as you told me you had the time to learn about Debian ant its ways and presumably you already know the answer to that. > > I wonder if you are feeling angry > > SJW destroyed yet another technical community. Why I should be happy? Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very long time, and are actually the most technical part of that community? Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here, this GR will be a good reality check. I wish you a rapid recovery: my experience with griefs is that they are not beneficial on the long term. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and > it's written to many places. For instance... https://www.debian.org/intro/people --->8- People: who we are, what we do Developers and contributors Debian is produced by almost a thousand active developers spread around the world who volunteer in their spare time. Few of the developers have actually met in person. Communication is done primarily through e-mail (mailing lists at lists.debian.org) and IRC (#debian channel at irc.debian.org). The complete list of official Debian members can be found on nm.debian.org, where membership is managed. A broader list of Debian contributors can be found on contributors.debian.org. ->8--- Can you see here a clear distinction: we do political statements for DD only? > I wonder if you are feeling angry SJW destroyed yet another technical community. Why I should be happy?
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> whose potential work Can we compare a potential work with a potential work? Real work with real work, meters with meters, seconds with seconds and so on... Not inches with bananas, please. > If I were to follow the argumentation that Stallman's contributions are so > immensely important No. He didn't anything wrong against philosophy of FOSS and so on. Did FSF issue a wrong license? That would be a problem. Personal opinion of rms, unrelated to fsf.org - is not. If some people can't distinguish such cases - such people are threat for FOSS, not rms. > The position of the FSF, as announced, is that contributors outside their > inner circle are unimportant. You did same, isn't? E.g. whose, who support debian packages - are not part of the Debian (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00374.html).
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Sergey B Kirpichev writes: >> Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country >> where they're not a citizen? > > Oh, package maintainers are not Debian's citizens... Great idea, just > put this on the top of debian.org to attract new contributors. This > is not transfobic, right? In addition to what Pierre-Elliott wrote, I want to add: your last sentence seems entirely misplaced, and makes it quite clear that you're not actually interested in the topic at hand, but are instead engaged in some general culture war. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Hi, On 30.03.21 09:56, Dmitry Smirnov wrote: Nobody is perfect. Everybody said a foolish thing at least once in a lifetime. If we cancel those who love what they do, those who are good with what they do, those who are passionate and caring for what they do for something they have said somewhere else then eventually there will be nobody left. The problem isn't that he said and did a few "foolish" things in the past, but that he continues to insist that these things weren't foolish, and should be accepted as the price of his contributions. That is not even valid from an utilitarian standpoint, because his behaviour discourages other contributors, whose potential work he'd have to make up for if we were aiming for a net positive. And, more importantly, we also don't want to look at this in an utilitarian way either, as it reduces people's worth to their measurable contributions. If I were to follow the argumentation that Stallman's contributions are so immensely important that it excuses everything else, that would be disrespectful both to him and to everyone else in the community at the same time, because it'd treat him like an idiot who we have accepted to be incapable of normal social behaviour but tolerate because he's still useful to us, and it'd send a message to everyone else that unless they reach a similar level of "productivity", they are disposable. The word "productivity" is in quotes here, because unlike what I wrote earlier, is not even an objective measure here, but an arbitrary one that is defined by the exact same people who score highly on it. That is why the "meritocracy" is bullshit: it is self-referential. The word "meritocracy" itself is from a satirical text on the inner workings of such a society, and I am still astonished to see people proposing to use a dystopian story as an example of how communities should be organized. The position of the FSF, as announced, is that contributors outside their inner circle are unimportant. If they weren't also the stewards of the GPL, we could simply denounce them and let them fall into obscurity, but they have an important arbiter function: the ability to release new GPL versions. There is precedent with the Wikipedia relicensing, where they released a new GFDL version with an annex allowing relicensing of GFDL content under a Creative Commons license if certain criteria were met (that effectively only applied to Wikipedia), which allowed the entirety of the GFDL'd contributions to WP to be relicensed without input from the copyright holders. This is why we need to make it our business that the FSF remains functional and a part of the free software community at large. To remain a part of the community, they will need to have a minimum of social acceptability, and that cannot be enforced by throwing their weight around. Simon OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 17:31:43+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country > > where they're not a citizen? > > Oh, package maintainers are not Debian's citizens... Great idea, just > put this on the top of debian.org to attract new contributors. This > is not transfobic, right? Dear Sergey, Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and it's written to many places. I wonder if you are feeling angry because you have a need for a space where you can express ideas that seem uncompatible with what Debian considers as fine? If so, there are indeed plenty places more fit to your expectations, as you stated in your departure email some days ago. But I would like to tell that we acknowledge your pain and I would like to express that I am personally sad that our expectations are inflicting you such pain. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country > where they're not a citizen? Oh, package maintainers are not Debian's citizens... Great idea, just put this on the top of debian.org to attract new contributors. This is not transfobic, right?
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Sergey B Kirpichev writes: > The simple (not just one) problem is: I did (now, in past) some work for > the Debian - but I can't vote. Yet, the project do political decisions > on my behalf. Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country where they're not a citizen? Does their inability to vote there bother you? Is it a problem if that country makes political decisions that they disagree with? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
(CC'd to debian-vote due to https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00224.html) On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 02:53:16PM +0200, Stephan Lachnit wrote: > Obviously the FSF can do whatever they want. They don't *have* to represent > me. But that doesn't mean that I still felt that they did. Maybe you should pay less attention to your "feelings" and more - to the actual work for OSS? Do you have objections e.g. against licenses, issued by FSF? Such criticizm could be logical. Private opinions of the FSF leader (or a board member) - not related with FOSS at all - are private opinions. > Especially when that person was removed just two years ago, for > whatever reason There was no objective reasons and the person wasn't just "removed". RMS stepped down on his own decision (which was an obvious error). > The reason I like free software is that nothing is behind closed doors. Open debian-private@. Or "this is different"? > > There was no apology from RMS "critics", which e.g. improperly quote RMS > > in the case of Minsky "defence" (the blame was itself is a lie). > > Honestly I don't know enough about RMS to argue about that, and I also don't > want to discuss it here. For me, the circumstances are reason enough to call > the FSF out. Maybe you should learn more about facts, before doing any decision for yourself? > no need for conspiracies about cancel culture. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's that it is. (And looking on the sponsors pages it seems to be clear "qui prodest".) > If you don't think Debian is democratic, I urge you to read the Constitution > again [1]. Not every contributor can vote, yes, but I argue that this is > normal. > I can't vacation in a different country and demand the right to vote. People don't just do a vacation in the Debian. They do work. Actual work: not just flaming in the maillists, but package software, fix bugs and so on. > I'll have to back down on the diversity statement, haven't checked various > pages like the CoC [2], I don't see a direct statement on this. I guess > it's fine if someone is against it as long as there are no personal attacks. There is no option. If the technical project is a part of some political statement on my behalf - I should be part of this or leave. > > > Obviously, everyone is free to disagree and can sign the support letter. > > > There is no problem > > > > See above. That's not a problem for you, yes. > > I don't get it. It's a democratic vote. If the vote is in favor of this, then > so > be it. If you disagree with the majority, then disagree. Nobody cares. The simple (not just one) problem is: I did (now, in past) some work for the Debian - but I can't vote. Yet, the project do political decisions on my behalf. Another problem is that people come in Debian to make a free operating system, not for politics. Next time you may vote to support bomb the North Korea. > If you think it's that big of a problem for you, you can leave the project. Sure, I already did (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00141.html). Lets see how this works...
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:04 PM Sergey B Kirpichev wrote: > > It's supposed to represent everyone who fights for a future where software > > is open > > Is it possible? To reopresent everyone. > > Shouldn't he instead represent that he's expected to represent? > > >From the fsf.org: > >8 > ... > Our Core Work > > The FSF maintains historic articles covering free software philosophy and > maintains the Free Software Definition - to show clearly what must be > true about a particular software program for it to be considered free > software. > ... > > The FSF publishes the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) > ... > -->8-- > and so on. > > Here is nothing about rms (or any FSF leader/board stuff/member) must > represent _you_. Or me, in turn. Obviously the FSF can do whatever they want. They don't *have* to represent me. But that doesn't mean that I still felt that they did. At least from my experience within the OSS world, I always felt that people see the FSF as an important voice in their mission towards an open future. With that decision, I lost a lot of faith in them, and apparently I'm not the only one. > > I mean not even the fr*cking FSFE knew about that > > Why it should? Different organization. That's not the point. The FSF should obviously communicate better who is on their board and who isn't, with elections etc. Just appointing someone is bad. Especially when that person was removed just two years ago, for whatever reason (the reason doesn't really matter). It shouldn't have happened behind closed doors without a public discussion. The reason I like free software is that nothing is behind closed doors. > > And there was no apology from RMS > > There was no apology from RMS "critics", which e.g. improperly quote RMS > in the case of Minsky "defence" (the blame was itself is a lie). Honestly I don't know enough about RMS to argue about that, and I also don't want to discuss it here. For me, the circumstances are reason enough to call the FSF out. The way the decision was communicated was not worthy of an organization that stands for free software. If someone was removed from the board for whatever reason, before putting them back in, there should be a proper statement from that person addressing these issues. The apology from 2019 was too short. The point of my mail was that there are enough reasons to criticize this decision, that there is really no need for conspiracies about cancel culture. > > We as a project that believes that diversity and democracy > > You place your political opinion for members of the project, which even > can't vote. Is this a democracy? If you don't think Debian is democratic, I urge you to read the Constitution again [1]. Not every contributor can vote, yes, but I argue that this is normal. I can't vacation in a different country and demand the right to vote. I'll first have to become a citizen. Same with Debian, still democratic. I'll have to back down on the diversity statement, haven't checked various pages like the CoC [2], I don't see a direct statement on this. I guess it's fine if someone is against it as long as there are no personal attacks. > > Obviously, everyone is free to disagree and can sign the support letter. > > There is no problem > > See above. That's not a problem for you, yes. I don't get it. It's a democratic vote. If the vote is in favor of this, then so be it. If you disagree with the majority, then disagree. Nobody cares. If you think it's that big of a problem for you, you can leave the project. But I think you can still be part of a project, even if you don't 100% agree with everything the project votes for. Compare it to a country: say you voted against the government, and they issued a statement you agree with. You don't need to leave the country. Nobody assumes that you have voted for the government, just because the majority in your country did. Regards, Stephan PS: moved to debian-vote [1] https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution [2] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
