Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Bill Nottingham wrote: > Large changes in terms of the interaction paradigm, such as the switch from > GNOME 2 and GNOME 3, can be problematic for users, but by presenting them > with a very different interface, it can essentially 'force' a retraining, > that can be assisted by docs, introduction videos, explanations of why the > big change, and so on - "here's the new method, learn it, and go." > > Continual iterations in terms of the feature set is a great thing for users; > things like "I upgraded and now I can add my GMail contacts", or "this new > music player is much better" are great, and add value. As they are > generally either additive in nature, learned as a new application, or > interacted with in fundamentally equivalent ways (such as the new status > menu), they don't have a lot of cost of adaptation. > > Continual iteration *in terms of the interaction paradigm*, is incredibly > user-hostile, though - it looks pretty much the same as before, so they > attempt to interact the same way as before. But scrollbars now act > differently. Or their middle mouse button might behave differently. Or the > menu for some of their applications moved entirely to someplace it wasn't > before. Etc. And if this happens with a different minor thing with each > release - they get gunshy. And they start saying "Oh what did GNOME break > now?" To quote Christina Wodtke - "User don't hate change. Users hate change > that doesn't make anything better, but makes everything have to be > relearned." And the "doesn't make anything better" is in the user's mind - > it's where the value needs to be communicated to. Sticking to the topic of text selections specifically (since general discussions on mailing lists are the road to hell) - we won't make changes in this area unless there are clear benefits to users. I think there is a compelling case to be made for improvements to text selections, and it is something that people will appreciate. I also think we can make changes without too much disruption. The devil will be in the detail of course, and we'll have to wait for the designs to be fleshed out before having a serious discussion. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: OUTAGE: Rack and network switch move, 24th September, 17 UTC
The migration of all our machines went just fine and the following actions were taken: 1. all machines are finally living on their own rack 2. all machines are finally using their own network switch 3. all machines have been configured for the sysadmin team to access both KVM / MGMT consoles. I'm sorry for the bad timing of this but we unfortunately didn't have the chance to decide when the change could happen given the on-site engineers were on the datacenter today after several weeks. I would like to thank everyone for the patience and wish everyone an awesome release day, 2013/9/23 Andrea Veri > Hi, > > tomorrow, 24th September from 17 UTC (hopefully the move shouldn't take > more than 2-3 hours) all our servers at the Phoenix2 datacenter will be > migrated to a new rack and network switch. > > All the services *except* the following ones will be experiencing an > outage: > > 1. www.gnome.org > 2. www.guadec.org > 3. IRC Services > 4. l10n.gnome.org > 5. ns-slave.gnome.org > > Unfortunately status.gnome.org will be offline as well during the > migration, I'll make sure to keep everyone updated as soon as the machines > will be coming up. > > Thanks for your patience and have an awesome day, > > -- > Cheers, > > Andrea > > Debian Developer, > Fedora / EPEL packager, > GNOME Sysadmin, > GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman > > Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av > -- Cheers, Andrea Debian Developer, Fedora / EPEL packager, GNOME Sysadmin, GNOME Foundation Membership & Elections Committee Chairman Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Tomasz Torcz wrote: >> You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about >> middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click >> have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better >> to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before >> we discuss it. :) > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. The designs haven't been publicised because they are not sufficiently developed, and as such have not been documented. Once they are there will be opportunity for discussion. Just because a design is documented does not mean that it is fixed, and I fully expect that the designs will be changed as a result of public discussion. That's what happened with the system status menu last cycle, and I think that the resulting design benefited. I see no reason why the same process should not be effective in this case. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Emmanuele Bassi (eba...@gmail.com) said: > you need a design first, if you want to comment on it. also, to dispel > a myth: no design is "finished". ever. > > there is always time to fix things. there's also a certain amount of > time between design and implementation, and then there's a certain > amount of time for testing to inform the design and change the > implementation. > > if you think that the design, once done, is also set in stone then you > probably haven't been keeping up with the development of GNOME between > 3.0 and 3.10. things get iterated continuously. some stuff also needs > to get into a release to get feedback, given that users don't check > alpha/beta releases, and distributions update GNOME every 6 to 12 > months. That's kind of the problem though, in my opinion. Large changes in terms of the interaction paradigm, such as the switch from GNOME 2 and GNOME 3, can be problematic for users, but by presenting them with a very different interface, it can essentially 'force' a retraining, that can be assisted by docs, introduction videos, explanations of why the big change, and so on - "here's the new method, learn it, and go." Continual iterations in terms of the feature set is a great thing for users; things like "I upgraded and now I can add my GMail contacts", or "this new music player is much better" are great, and add value. As they are generally either additive in nature, learned as a new application, or interacted with in fundamentally equivalent ways (such as the new status menu), they don't have a lot of cost of adaptation. Continual iteration *in terms of the interaction paradigm*, is incredibly user-hostile, though - it looks pretty much the same as before, so they attempt to interact the same way as before. But scrollbars now act differently. Or their middle mouse button might behave differently. Or the menu for some of their applications moved entirely to someplace it wasn't before. Etc. And if this happens with a different minor thing with each release - they get gunshy. And they start saying "Oh what did GNOME break now?" To quote Christina Wodtke - "User don't hate change. Users hate change that doesn't make anything better, but makes everything have to be relearned." And the "doesn't make anything better" is in the user's mind - it's where the value needs to be communicated to. Bill ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, 2013-09-24 at 20:00 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. > > you need a design first, if you want to comment on it. also, to dispel > a myth: no design is "finished". ever. > > there is always time to fix things. I think the truth really lies somewhere in the middle. Or rather, it depends on the *type* of feedback. Yes, there's always time to tweak things after the design has been implemented. But if you're trying to have input to the *core* of the design, that's likely to be hard to change by then. Now does seem to be about the right time to scream "you will take the middle-click paste from my cold dead fingers". Later, after the initial beta release, would be the time to say "oh, that horrid thing you've done that I never use and keep accidentally getting when I try to paste, and makes me want to throw my mouse out the window? Let's make it green instead of blue". -- dwmw2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Allan Day said: > > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word > > "discoverable" > > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. > Which page? Which proposal? The wiki, for example: https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/Selections and the Bugzilla: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193 > the designs for what might happen to middle-click have neither been >finalised nor publicised. I think it would be > better to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before > we discuss it. :) Pelosi. I believe plans should be thought through PRIOR to being finalized. :) Particularly, general principles should be heeded even when first conceptualizing a design. Regarding the topic at hand, Larry Wall has written insightfully about the topic. In brief, he argues that systems should optimally be easy to get started with_the_basics_, then with infinitely many more and more powerful uses being available as the user learns, and as they have need for additional features. To handicap long term use in the name of reducing the things a new user might learn is folly, as users will be new for weeks or months, they'll be experienced users for years. Don't give up something that will be useful for many years to shorten a month of learning. That's a general principle, something that is worth keeping in mind before settling on any specifics. Ray Morris ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
hi; On 24 September 2013 19:49, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 07:30:58PM +0100, Allan Day wrote: >> >> You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about >> middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click >> have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better >> to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before >> we discuss it. :) > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. you need a design first, if you want to comment on it. also, to dispel a myth: no design is "finished". ever. there is always time to fix things. there's also a certain amount of time between design and implementation, and then there's a certain amount of time for testing to inform the design and change the implementation. if you think that the design, once done, is also set in stone then you probably haven't been keeping up with the development of GNOME between 3.0 and 3.10. things get iterated continuously. some stuff also needs to get into a release to get feedback, given that users don't check alpha/beta releases, and distributions update GNOME every 6 to 12 months. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 07:30:58PM +0100, Allan Day wrote: > > You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about > middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click > have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better > to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before > we discuss it. :) I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. -- Tomasz TorczOnly gods can safely risk perfection, xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl it's a dangerous thing for a man. -- Alia ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Ray Morris wrote: > Allan Day said: > >> You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was >> on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. > > I've read some of the discussion. The news stories did pick up on context > menu, making it a non-default setting, etc. > It does appear that there is additional background I haven't located any > record of. I'm not making any assumptions > about what that may be. > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word > "discoverable" > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. Which page? Which proposal? > Based on the available background, I'm pointing out a > principle that is true globally. > > For any system that will be used many times, over a period of time, it is > false economy > to make it simpler in the beginning by making it harder in the long run. > > The interface we're using right now, English, is a great example. Suppose > someone proposed simplifying English so > that it could be learned completely in six months, that we remove any words > or language constructs not used by > six-month-olds babies? That would of course be ridiculous. We want the > interface we're using to be deep, to have more and > more power we can discover over time. Just as young children learn "mama", > then later learn "maternal", new users can > use ctrl-c/ ctrl-v, until they learn more. (Though ctrl-c is of course a > _terrible_ habit on Linux. The same keystroke is used both > for copying data and for immediately killing the program with extreme > prejudice, losing all data.) You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before we discuss it. :) Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Allan Day said: > You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was > on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. I've read some of the discussion. The news stories did pick up on context menu, making it a non-default setting, etc. It does appear that there is additional background I haven't located any record of. I'm not making any assumptions about what that may be. I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word "discoverable" is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. Based on the available background, I'm pointing out a principle that is true globally. For any system that will be used many times, over a period of time, it is false economy | to make it simpler in the beginning by making it harder in the long run. The interface we're using right now, English, is a great example. Suppose someone proposed simplifying English so that it could be learned completely in six months, that we remove any words or language constructs not used by six-month-olds babies? That would of course be ridiculous. We want the interface we're using to be deep, to have more and more power we can discover over time. Just as young children learn "mama", then later learn "maternal", new users can use ctrl-c/ ctrl-v, until they learn more. (Though ctrl-c is of course a _terrible_ habit on Linux. The same keystroke is used both for copying data and for immediately killing the program with extreme prejudice, losing all data.) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Le 24/09/2013 18:15, Hashem Nasarat a écrit : > Please don't be disparaging to grandmothers who use GNOME. > http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it Do you know his grandmother? How do you know she doesn't use GNOME ? Please people, add real content to the topic, or refrain from adding noise. This is for you as well as for tglman. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, 2013-09-24 at 12:15 -0400, Hashem Nasarat wrote: > > > tnks for all the job you are doing, it's really appreciate, I can > say > > GNOME 3 is so easy to use that also my grandmother can use it!! > Please don't be disparaging to grandmothers who use GNOME. > http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it He's not. Just like I'm not being disparaging to all fathers who use GNOME, when I say almost the same thing except "my father can use it". I never tried to get my grandmother to use GNOME. I *do* get my father to use GNOME. And it's a *painful* experience :) If you want to make rampant generalisations, that's fine. But don't then blame *me*, or Tglman, for the inferences you draw that weren't necessarily implied. -- dwmw2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On 09/24/2013 11:59 AM, tglman wrote: > Really?? are you removing the middle-click-paste?? > > please don't do it!! tell me what I've to patch for keep it!! I'm > ready to rewrite all Wayland !! > > tnks for all the job you are doing, it's really appreciate, I can say > GNOME 3 is so easy to use that also my grandmother can use it!! Please don't be disparaging to grandmothers who use GNOME. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it > but is becoming too easy for be used by me ;) > > anyway thks! > > Tglman > > On 09/24/2013 04:29 PM, Ray Morris wrote: >> Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be >> of interest: >> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long >> >> It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in >> a few cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, >> at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when >> they aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd >> all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other >> because we want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime >> discovering new ways it can be used. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> desktop-devel-list mailing list >> desktop-devel-list@gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > > > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Really?? are you removing the middle-click-paste?? please don't do it!! tell me what I've to patch for keep it!! I'm ready to rewrite all Wayland !! tnks for all the job you are doing, it's really appreciate, I can say GNOME 3 is so easy to use that also my grandmother can use it!! but is becoming too easy for be used by me ;) anyway thks! Tglman On 09/24/2013 04:29 PM, Ray Morris wrote: > Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be > of interest: > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long > > It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in a > few cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, > at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when > they aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd > all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other > because we want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime > discovering new ways it can be used. > > > > > > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Ray Morris wrote: > Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be of > interest: > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long Must be a slow news day. That story is almost a month old. > It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in a few > cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, > at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when they > aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd > all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other because we > want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime > discovering new ways it can be used. You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. In fact, it was precisely because we hadn't had chance to document, discuss, and fully elaborate our plans that we reverted the change. Before you go jumping to conclusions, you might want to wait to hear what we're actually hoping to do in this area. Contrary to what is being said, we are not simply planning on removing middle click paste, but I guess that detail doesn't make for interesting news stories (no one contacted us to ask what the real story is). We'll be working on a round of designs during the next development cycle, and there will be opportunities for discussion and feedback. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be of interest: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in a few cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when they aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other because we want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime discovering new ways it can be used.___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.12 feature: GNOME Software
On 24 September 2013 15:29, Olav Vitters wrote: > Is there anything a distribution should do? I noticed you wanted > something changed in the Fedora build system. Did I have that right and > do we need similar changes in other distributions? Well. The issue is more how we describe things like input methods. I've got a nice set of files https://github.com/hughsie/fedora-appstream/tree/master/appdata-extra/inputmethod that are headed upstream, but I've kinda fudged the AppStream side of things. I'll have to add to the official spec so we can be interoperable between distros. Actually running the build and compose steps on the distro servers (rather than running it myself once a week or so) and that's something I'll be pushing for after F20 is out of the door. Richard ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
I think the original thread was to talk about the new plans for GNOME 3.12. If you want to have a flame about or against FreeBSD, you should start a new thread, having this one to discuss about plans and some new features for 3.12. Thanks 2013/9/24 Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: > > Hey Andrew, Zeeshan, > > > > 2013/9/24 Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) : > >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Andrew W. Nosenko > >> wrote: > >>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre > >>> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: > > > > what would this mean for systems not using systemd? > > > Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does > not > have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or > hibernate on > ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this > point. > > For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses > ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile > without > logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. > > Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that > you > would like to run GNOME on? > > >>> > >>> Did you heard about FreeBSD? > >> > >> How many people use FreeBSD? I doubt its a significant enough number > >> for us to spend our time and resources on it. > > > > Really? How many people use GNU/Linux distros? From that POV we are > > better off targeting Android. I don't think GNOME is in the OS > > popularity contest. > > Android is not free, I said 'free'. If FreeBSD had users comparable to > that of Linux, why is it that in almost every other free software > project, developers target Linux first, if they target any other free > OS at all. We can't buildup a complete system based on Android anyway > even if it was free since its already a complete system. > > > There are much more compelling answers to Andrew's request, and I for > > one would like to see people working on getting GNOME working on BSD's > > as long as they understand that the majority of people run Linux and > > that we are trying to achieve a certain level of integration with the > > OS and that we expect certain features and services to achieve GNOME's > > goals. > > > > People can get GNOME working on the *BSDs, but is the developers > > running those OSes the ones that have to figure out a way to catch up > > with Linux and work with upstreams, it's just not realistic > > Surely. As I already apologized, "FreeBSD users should just go away" > is not at all what I meant to say. However, my rather impolite comment > was in reply to his comment that sounded very much like "Why are you > guys not caring about FreeBSD?". > > >>> PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? > >> > >> But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper > >> was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that > >> systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. > > > > Worth caring about? I care about any OS that has an OSI approved > > license, I happen to run some incarnation of GNU/Linux and I try to > > make things work on that one because it's the one I use. But that > > doesn't mean that other OSes are not worthy of care by other people. > > It's just up to those people to try to get things running on it. > > By "not caring about", I mean us not thinking about it when we design > and implement various GNOME components. That is a fact and unless > there is some FreeBSD developers stepping-up and changing that, it > will remain to be the case. I only intended to make this clear. Once > again, I apologise that it came out so harshly and apparently also so > misleading. > > -- > Regards, > > Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) > FSF member#5124 > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.12 feature: GNOME Software
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 02:46:14PM +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > - On some distributions, we have basic fonts previews in the addon category > > - On some distributions, we have input methods in the addon category Is there anything a distribution should do? I noticed you wanted something changed in the Fedora build system. Did I have that right and do we need similar changes in other distributions? -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: > Hey Andrew, Zeeshan, > > 2013/9/24 Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) : >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Andrew W. Nosenko >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre >>> wrote: On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: > > what would this mean for systems not using systemd? Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you would like to run GNOME on? >>> >>> Did you heard about FreeBSD? >> >> How many people use FreeBSD? I doubt its a significant enough number >> for us to spend our time and resources on it. > > Really? How many people use GNU/Linux distros? From that POV we are > better off targeting Android. I don't think GNOME is in the OS > popularity contest. Android is not free, I said 'free'. If FreeBSD had users comparable to that of Linux, why is it that in almost every other free software project, developers target Linux first, if they target any other free OS at all. We can't buildup a complete system based on Android anyway even if it was free since its already a complete system. > There are much more compelling answers to Andrew's request, and I for > one would like to see people working on getting GNOME working on BSD's > as long as they understand that the majority of people run Linux and > that we are trying to achieve a certain level of integration with the > OS and that we expect certain features and services to achieve GNOME's > goals. > > People can get GNOME working on the *BSDs, but is the developers > running those OSes the ones that have to figure out a way to catch up > with Linux and work with upstreams, it's just not realistic Surely. As I already apologized, "FreeBSD users should just go away" is not at all what I meant to say. However, my rather impolite comment was in reply to his comment that sounded very much like "Why are you guys not caring about FreeBSD?". >>> PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? >> >> But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper >> was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that >> systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. > > Worth caring about? I care about any OS that has an OSI approved > license, I happen to run some incarnation of GNU/Linux and I try to > make things work on that one because it's the one I use. But that > doesn't mean that other OSes are not worthy of care by other people. > It's just up to those people to try to get things running on it. By "not caring about", I mean us not thinking about it when we design and implement various GNOME components. That is a fact and unless there is some FreeBSD developers stepping-up and changing that, it will remain to be the case. I only intended to make this clear. Once again, I apologise that it came out so harshly and apparently also so misleading. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
Le 24/09/2013 15:44, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) a écrit : > But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper > was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that > systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. Would you please people stop presenting things this way ? Telling people that if they want the work done for their platform, they should contribute is ok. Telling them their platform is archaic is not, and is pedantic. I hate when people use offensive words for GNOME, that's not to use them when I'm on the other side of the fence. Please let people use what they want, and be cooperative so they can achieve their goal, as long as it doesn't give you too much work. FYI, I've not even used any *BSD system in my whole life, but being a Linux user, I know what it is to be part of a beaten-down minority. Seems some of you forgot it. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Tue, 2013-09-24 at 10:44 +0200, Julien Blanc wrote: > I know this has been already discussed a lot, but application menu is > currently broken. I think pretty much every point you raised is a valid problem. Some attention is needed here at the design level. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper > was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that > systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. No need to be insulting. Fred ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
hi; On 24 September 2013 08:03, Andrew W. Nosenko wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre > wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: >>> >>> what would this mean for systems not using systemd? >> >> >> Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not >> have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on >> ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. >> >> For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses >> ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without >> logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. >> >> Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you >> would like to run GNOME on? >> > > Did you heard about FreeBSD? nothing has really changed in that respect. FreeBSD developers and users should follow the great example of Antoine, who has been hard at work to ensure that GNOME builds and works on OpenBSD. it's an undeniable reality that most of the developers in GNOME use Linux, which means things get developed, tested, fixed, and designed on Linux first. the only way to counter eventual breakage on other systems is to work upstream. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Andrew W. Nosenko > wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: what would this mean for systems not using systemd? >>> >>> >>> Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not >>> have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on >>> ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. >>> >>> For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses >>> ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without >>> logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. >>> >>> Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you >>> would like to run GNOME on? >>> >> >> Did you heard about FreeBSD? > > How many people use FreeBSD? I doubt its a significant enough number > for us to spend our time and resources on it. > >> PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? > > But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper > was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that > systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. Sorry it came out so harsh. I only intended to make it clear that Linux is the main (if not, the only) target most GNOME developers focus on. Jasper said it much better. Anyway, apologies. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
Hey Andrew, Zeeshan, 2013/9/24 Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) : > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Andrew W. Nosenko > wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: what would this mean for systems not using systemd? >>> >>> >>> Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not >>> have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on >>> ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. >>> >>> For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses >>> ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without >>> logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. >>> >>> Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you >>> would like to run GNOME on? >>> >> >> Did you heard about FreeBSD? > > How many people use FreeBSD? I doubt its a significant enough number > for us to spend our time and resources on it. Really? How many people use GNU/Linux distros? From that POV we are better off targeting Android. I don't think GNOME is in the OS popularity contest. There are much more compelling answers to Andrew's request, and I for one would like to see people working on getting GNOME working on BSD's as long as they understand that the majority of people run Linux and that we are trying to achieve a certain level of integration with the OS and that we expect certain features and services to achieve GNOME's goals. People can get GNOME working on the *BSDs, but is the developers running those OSes the ones that have to figure out a way to catch up with Linux and work with upstreams, it's just not realistic >> PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? > > But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper > was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that > systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. Worth caring about? I care about any OS that has an OSI approved license, I happen to run some incarnation of GNU/Linux and I try to make things work on that one because it's the one I use. But that doesn't mean that other OSes are not worthy of care by other people. It's just up to those people to try to get things running on it. > > -- > Regards, > > Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) > FSF member#5124 > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Andrew W. Nosenko < andrew.w.nose...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre > wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: > >> > >> what would this mean for systems not using systemd? > > > > > > Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not > > have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate > on > > ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this > point. > > > > For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses > > ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without > > logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. > > > > Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you > > would like to run GNOME on? > > > > Did you heard about FreeBSD? > > PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? > The situation is the same as always: if somebody wants to maintain the services to run on FreeBSD, you're very welcome to do that. But unless somebody does the work, the existing code will probably get rusty and broken. -- > Andrew W. Nosenko > -- Jasper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.12 feature: Completing the Wayland port
Hi, On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I'll make the start for discussing 3.12 features by giving an update > on the status of the Wayland port, and what work remains to be done > next cycle. > - finish the gdm support I started on this last cycle but didn't get done in time. The in-progress work is here: https://git.gnome.org/browse/gdm/log/?h=wip/wayland I also think some of the requisite logind work has landed since, so I'm going to investigate integrating with that. --Ray ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
3.12 feature: GNOME Software
Matthias started with a mail about Wayland, it seems a good idea to do the same for GNOME Software: In 3.10, - We have a "technical preview" that includes desktop categories, featured applications, and long descriptions for some apps. Installing and removing are performed using the system PackageKit instance and updates are performed using offline updates where available. To say so myself it's impressive this much works after working on it for just a couple of months, but a lot is still pretty hacky. - Most of the time, gnome-software starts quickly, but sometimes taking 10+ seconds on some PackageKit backends - On some distributions, we have basic fonts previews in the addon category - On some distributions, we have input methods in the addon category For 3.12, - We need to start the application in *all* circumstances in less than 1 second. No flicker, no loading bar. - All GNOME modules need to have validated AppData[1] so we can show a consistent details page for all core applications - We need ratings, comments and screenshots in all GNOME (and non-GNOME important applications, e.g. GIMP, Inkscape, etc). - We probably need better categories than the menu-spec gives us. - We need to properly work on the shared AppStream specification for fonts and input methods so we can share this between distributions. - We need to do something more sane about fonts, something like the new mockup[2] - We need to support packaging systems like Glick and Listaller so we can install test applications per-user. - We want to centralize all the update parts, possibly in a split app/daemon model which Matthias has been playing with. - We want to show Firefox webapps and things in the Chrome store. Epiphany web applications are in the same category too. If you're an expert here, we'd love some help. - We need to start thinking about allowing donations for applications, be it a centralised model where everyone gives to gnome.org, or a decentralised model where random developers get money from PayPal or bitcoins from random people. If you're interested on working on any of these bits, please either grab me on IRC (hughsie) or file a bug in bugzilla with details of what you want to work on. Bugzilla [3] already has quite a few open bugs about missing functionality, so feel free to pile on there with ideas. And for all those who've already committed validated translated AppData files for your modules; thanks. For those who haven't done it yet; get busy. ;) Richard [1] https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/AppDataGnomeSoftware [2] https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/software/version2/software-fonts.png [3] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=gnome-software ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Andrew W. Nosenko wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre > wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: >>> >>> what would this mean for systems not using systemd? >> >> >> Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not >> have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on >> ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. >> >> For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses >> ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without >> logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. >> >> Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you >> would like to run GNOME on? >> > > Did you heard about FreeBSD? How many people use FreeBSD? I doubt its a significant enough number for us to spend our time and resources on it. > PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? But apparently its the only free OS worth caring about. I think Jasper was asking about distros as I'm pretty sure he is well aware that systemd doesn't run on an archaic OSs, such as FreeBSD. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.12 feature: Completing the Wayland port
Em Tue, 2013-09-24 às 14:22 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi escreveu: > hi Matthias; > > On 24 September 2013 14:14, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > - many GNOME applications will work more or less under Wayland. One > > class of applications that will not work currently is anything using > > clutter-gtk, see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695737 > > I reviewed the patches, and apart from some additional work needed in > the implementation, they also need testing. Has the implementation been changed since my tests? The tests didn't work correctly when I tried. Cheers ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.12 feature: Completing the Wayland port
hi Matthias; On 24 September 2013 14:14, Matthias Clasen wrote: > - many GNOME applications will work more or less under Wayland. One > class of applications that will not work currently is anything using > clutter-gtk, see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695737 I reviewed the patches, and apart from some additional work needed in the implementation, they also need testing. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
3.12 feature: Completing the Wayland port
I'll make the start for discussing 3.12 features by giving an update on the status of the Wayland port, and what work remains to be done next cycle. In 3.10, - the Wayland compositor port of mutter has been developed on the wayland branch of mutter, and we've started to make tarball releases of the branch that are parallel installable with mutter. - gnome-shell builds two separate binaries, gnome-shell (the X compositor) and gnome-shell-wayland (the Wayland compositor). - a number of direct uses of X in gnome-control-center, gnome-settings-daemon and gnome-desktop have been ported to use dbus interfaces provided by mutter or gnome-shell: display configuration, idle time handling. As an example, the dbus interface for display configuration is documented here: https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/Gaps/DisplayConfig - GTK+ has working client-side decorations - gnome-session has basic support for running a Wayland session - launching Wayland sessions from gdm does not work yet. It required more internal restructuring than we were comfortable landing for 3.10; you can see the current work in progress on the wip/wayland branch - many GNOME applications will work more or less under Wayland. One class of applications that will not work currently is anything using clutter-gtk, see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695737 Instructions for trying out GNOME / Wayland in jhbuild can be found here: https://wiki.gnome.org/action/Wayland/TryingIt. Unfortunately you can't quite try it in Fedora 20, since we don't have xwayland in our X packages yet. For 3.12, there's still lots of things to do: - finish the gdm support - merge the clutter-gtk patches - implement dnd - lots of missing window management detai - bring over color management support from weston - many input handling features - wacom support More details are on the feature page: https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointEleven/Features/WaylandSupport Matthias ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME keyboard layout handling problems
Hi, On 24 September 2013 14:42, Petko Ditchev wrote: > > 1. Disabling ctrl+shift , alt+shit , etc. shortcuts for switching between > layouts is IMO a step back in usability . Not to mention that everyone and Those shortcuts still work. > their grandma is used to switch layouts with the now depricated in GNOME > shortcuts , but the new default is just not easy to use on some keyboards > (my laptop for example) . And as far as I've seen the main reason to change > the behaviour like that is not to interfere with shortcuts in the apps (and > shell) like the ctrl+shift+T to revive a tab in Firefox . But that's just > not a viable argument - the shortcut should be evaluated at key release , > which means there's no conflict between said shortcuts . Actually quite a few people seem to disagree with you because we've got several bug reports specifically asking for those shortcuts to trigger on key press. > (I know I can switch back with the Tweak tool but that's not the point) You can also use Settings > Keyboard > Shortcuts > Typing > Modifiers-only ... > 2.There's a bug I posted about some weeks ago , that affects the case "Qt5 > application on GNOME" . And since I use QtCreator and Qt5 this affects both > the IDE and my apps . And as a user with more than one layout this affects > me pretty heavily . Here's the thread on the GNOME list : > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-August/msg00225.html > (no reply) I'm sorry I didn't reply but I did look into this. It's a bug in Qt 5.1 and I pointed it to the Qt developer in https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23202 Rui ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
GNOME keyboard layout handling problems
Hi everyone , I want to raise some issues I'm having , as a user from a non-english-speaking country . 1. Disabling ctrl+shift , alt+shit , etc. shortcuts for switching between layouts is IMO a step back in usability . Not to mention that everyone and their grandma is used to switch layouts with the now depricated in GNOME shortcuts , but the new default is just not easy to use on some keyboards (my laptop for example) . And as far as I've seen the main reason to change the behaviour like that is not to interfere with shortcuts in the apps (and shell) like the ctrl+shift+T to revive a tab in Firefox . But that's just not a viable argument - the shortcut should be evaluated at key release , which means there's no conflict between said shortcuts . (I know I can switch back with the Tweak tool but that's not the point) 2.There's a bug I posted about some weeks ago , that affects the case "Qt5 application on GNOME" . And since I use QtCreator and Qt5 this affects both the IDE and my apps . And as a user with more than one layout this affects me pretty heavily . Here's the thread on the GNOME list : https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-August/msg00225.html (no reply) , and on the Qt development mailing list : http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2013-August/012822.html http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2013-August/012824.html http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2013-August/012827.html http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2013-September/012848.html http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2013-September/012849.html Petko ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
Ok, I've created the following page: https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/AppDataGnomeSoftware and added it as a candidate in the goals list. Cheers! 2013/9/23 Matthias Clasen > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Daniel Mustieles García > wrote: > > > > Matthias: just a question about the wiki: do I create the goal as an > > accepted on o as a goal candidate? > > I would file it as a candidate. We'll probably do a few rounds of > adding information, etc, before it is ready to be accepted... > ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
Le 2013-09-23 14:33, Matthias Clasen a écrit : Hi, But maybe there are other things that people are working on, or want to work on for 3.12 ? Now is the time to make your ideas known, and turn them into concrete plans. Hi, I know this has been already discussed a lot, but application menu is currently broken. There are some well-known issues, such as : - multi-screen (application menu is really single screen oriented) - focus follows mouse unfriendlyness But the main concern imho is that the behaviour is completely inconsistent between applications. Let’s say we have 4 types of application : 1) single window, single instance application (example : shotwell). These ones fits well with the application menu 2) multiple windows, single instance applications (example : epiphany/web). These ones also fits well with the application menu model, but there are inconsistencies between applications. 3) single window, multiple instance applications (example : gnome-calculator). These ones are a mess. 4) multiple windows, multiple instance applications (example : inkscape). These ones are also a mess. Testing with gnome-3.8 on a debian sid/experimental (maybe some issues have already been fixed in 3.10, but in this case i missed them), we have the following behaviours : gnome-terminal (2): - opening multiple windows : using quit on application menu only closes active window gnome-web, nautilus (2): - opening multiple windows : using quit on application menu closes all windows gimp (2) : - application menu is not available when focus is on a tool window - "Application Menu"->"Quit" doesn’t quit. It does a « close all », which closes all images but doesn’t quit gimp. evince (2) : - no quit button in application menu gnome-calculator (3) : - Mode only affects current window (note : this is agains design guidelines. Maybe it should be fixed at the gnome-calculator level). - switching mode, then switching window makes application menu inconsistent with current application state - quit only quits current window inkscape (4) : - using "File"->"Quit" quits only current process - using "Application Menu"->"Quit" quits all processes. I’m wondering how anyone can explain such behaviour differences to a user, during a training for example. IMHO, gnome-web / nautilus behaviour should be the standard. Multiple instance application should be made single-instance, multiple window (note that i am talking about instances, not processes. empathy is an example of single-instance, multi-process application), and should follow the same scheme as nautilus. So, here are the goals i would like to be added (by order of importance) : 1) complete the following page : https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/HIG/ApplicationMenus , with a description of the standard application menu item, the required ones (« quit » should be mandatory imho), and the expected behaviour for the applications, whether they are single or multi-process, single or multi-window. 2) Fix gnome applications that are not following the guidelines on application menu behaviour. 3) make applicaction menu multi-screen friendly. The MacOSX way (duplication of the menu bar on each screen) is ugly, but at least it’s more user friendly than nothing. Having the application menu on a different screen than the application window is definitely not a good idea. 4) make focus-follows-mouse and application menu work well together (this one is less important, since it only concerns a minority of users). Regards, Julien ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 10:03:41AM +0300, Andrew W. Nosenko wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre > wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: > >> > >> what would this mean for systems not using systemd? > > > > > > Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not > > have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on > > ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. > > > > For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses > > ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without > > logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. > > > > Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you > > would like to run GNOME on? > > > > Did you heard about FreeBSD? And OpenBSD for that matter. GNOME 3.8 works great: https://www.bsdfrog.org/tmp/gnome.webm -- Antoine ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Opening the 3.12 cycle
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Andy Tai wrote: >> >> what would this mean for systems not using systemd? > > > Systems not using systemd already fall back to ConsoleKit, which does not > have any maintainer. We don't support features like suspend or hibernate on > ConsoleKit anymore and it's pretty much on life support only at this point. > > For 3.12, we will keep the old gnome-session and gdm code that uses > ConsoleKit and fork/exec ourselves in the case where you compile without > logind support, but I wouldn't expect it to be around much longer. > > Do you have any specific examples of systems not using systemd that you > would like to run GNOME on? > Did you heard about FreeBSD? PS. Do you know any OS that _uses_ systemd at all beside Linux? -- Andrew W. Nosenko ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
