Re: proposal for a GSoC post-mortem survey
Rich, I didn't take it as a potshot at all. I took it as how you meant itperhaps that's because I work with you closely and know your tone in emails. The rest can be chalked up to a language barrier/miscommunication. Trust me, folks, Rich had no ill intent with his email - just the opposite, actually! :) ~Melissa From: Rich Bowen To: dev@community.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 8:49 AM Subject: Re: proposal for a GSoC post-mortem survey On Dec 6, 2016 6:41 AM, "Rich Bowen" wrote: Given that what I proposed was step one and you want to jump straight to step 12, obviously I'm +1 on this. I'm told this comes across as a potshot at Uli. This is not my intent. This solution gives all I wanted and more. I approve of this solution On Dec 6, 2016 3:59 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote: > Hi ComDev community, > > since I believe that measuring two data points only to measure the success > of programs like GSoC in > building communities is going to do more harm than good, I want to propose > a post-mortem survey that > hopefully captures a more complete picture. Here is my first proposal, > let's discuss. > > Cheers, > > Uli > > *DRAFT* > > Please specify the name of the student you mentored (free text) > > Do *you* consider GSoC 2016 a success for your project? (yes/no) > > Why or why not? (free text) > > Do you feel your time spent was worth it? (very high value for time > spent:very low value for time spent) > > Did the student stick around after GSoC concluded? (yes and still is, yes > briefly, no) > > Has the student been voted in as a committer or PMC member (yes/no) > > Does the student's code live on? (as a separate module, as part of the > project's codebase, no, other > - please specify) > > Should we continue participating in GSoC on a foundation level? (yes/no) > > If no, why not? > > Would you mentor a GSoC student again? (yes, no, under the following > circumstances - please specify) > > Please specify your Apache ID if you would be willing to discuss your > answers further. (free text) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote: > Rich Bowen wrote on 12/5/16 12:54 PM: >> As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't have a clear idea of what >> we're here for. I believe we need to fix that. > > Meta-comments: > > - Specific proposals - especially things that can be written down as > draft text on a webpage - always work better. Why not start a new draft > "ComDev Project Goals" page on the website, so it's simpler for people > to submit specific patches. > > - In a non-code project, one of the hardest issues to deal with (at > least for me) is working through negative or non-supportive feedback. > Earlier, it felt like some people had new good ideas about docs, but > were also saying that other people should stop what they're doing, and > work on the docs first. That feels like "getting in the way", although > I realize now that it was just how I interpreted the tone, and not the > real message. > > I guess this is just a call for all of us to not get in other energetic > volunteer's ways. We all have great ideas, now the trick is to help or > at least allow some of us to actually implement those ideas - perhaps as > draft goals to start with, but to let Rich make progress here (and Uli > to make progress on the GSoC agreement and survey). > > Just because someone else has a different idea doesn't mean that Rich > shouldn't also go forward with his idea, for example, and vice-versa. > This is not a zero-sum game, and unless someone's idea is actively > hurting the project's efforts, let's try to say "Yes, but..." instead of > "No, not like that..." more. 8-) > > Rich, I'm definitely +1 for you to organize this and put it on the > website for the PMC to - over some time - tweak and better publicize. Huge +1 to the above. And just be clear -- my personal intent was to simply indicate some of the boundaries that need to be crossed with great, great caution. Everything else I'm hugely supportive of, but more from the 'cheering from the sidelines' kind of a way. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
Rich Bowen wrote on 12/5/16 12:54 PM: > As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't have a clear idea of what > we're here for. I believe we need to fix that. Meta-comments: - Specific proposals - especially things that can be written down as draft text on a webpage - always work better. Why not start a new draft "ComDev Project Goals" page on the website, so it's simpler for people to submit specific patches. - In a non-code project, one of the hardest issues to deal with (at least for me) is working through negative or non-supportive feedback. Earlier, it felt like some people had new good ideas about docs, but were also saying that other people should stop what they're doing, and work on the docs first. That feels like "getting in the way", although I realize now that it was just how I interpreted the tone, and not the real message. I guess this is just a call for all of us to not get in other energetic volunteer's ways. We all have great ideas, now the trick is to help or at least allow some of us to actually implement those ideas - perhaps as draft goals to start with, but to let Rich make progress here (and Uli to make progress on the GSoC agreement and survey). Just because someone else has a different idea doesn't mean that Rich shouldn't also go forward with his idea, for example, and vice-versa. This is not a zero-sum game, and unless someone's idea is actively hurting the project's efforts, let's try to say "Yes, but..." instead of "No, not like that..." more. 8-) Rich, I'm definitely +1 for you to organize this and put it on the website for the PMC to - over some time - tweak and better publicize. Thanks, - Shane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote: > I might ask; What else is the purpose of this PMC? Why have a PMC, if > the PMC is unwilling to do anything but their own individual interests > with seemingly little to no regard to whether it's within the mission > and reason behind ComDev. It's supposed to be a Project Management > Committee, and yet we're reluctant to manage anything here. That's an excellent question. I believe that the activity that's happening in the PMC is all in support of its charter. Rich is saying -- lets do more of it and be more active. I'm all for it -- although I can't really commit to doing more than what I'm already doing for community development (which I happen to have feedback from various people is considered to be quite a bit). Rich is doing fantastic job with Events and Outreach. This stuff is happening. Your question is more along the lines of: at which point should the board look at ComDev and ask itself a question: "is there enough stuff happening for it to still be a project?". That's an excellent question and I honestly don't know how to answer it. I do, however, know how that question is answered for code-producing PMCs. It happens by filling in a bunch of data points starting from: * when was the last time a PMC member was elected? * when was the last release? * what's the level of activity * etc... So perhaps starting with applying most of the same metrics here would help us understand 'how ComDev PMC is doing'. Just a thought. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 12/06/2016 01:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: >> I'd like to strongly echo Bertrand here. To me, ComDev is first, and foremost >> an ASF's braintrust if you will of things that have to do with >> community development, >> governance and all around non-coding. It is a place to come and ask >> for advice, etc. >> >> Of course, anything we can do to clean up documentation or provide >> better guidance >> is welcome, but I don't think ComDev is responsible for community >> development of ASF >> the same way that Rich is responsible for it at his day job. > > So, to quote Tyrion Lannister, we drink and we know things? That's a very, very good way to put it! > Well, the point of this thread is that I think that's not enough any > more. It's taking the easy way out, and will eventually lead to an ASF > where more and more projects are satellites, disconnected from the > central ASF community, and we no longer share any commonality between > ASF projects. Good point, but to answer another point brought by Daniel lets look at what this PMC's charter says: WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with coordinating community development efforts. that last part "charged with coordinating community development efforts" has a very important keyword -- coordinating. We ARE a coordinating body according to our charter. What it translates into for me is helping those interested in community development within each project find common tools, approaches and techniques. Just like with IPMC -- it is a pull model, rather than a push one. Now, nothing prevents us from clarifying the charter (or going above and beyond it) but I just wanted to point out where we stand. > Any community (or company, or country, or whatever) that grows at the > rate that the ASF is growing risks losing its identity unless culture is > actively preserved - unless community is actively developed. I'd argue that establishing initial culture is the job of IPMC (mostly via mentors). Monitoring the culture of TLPs is the job of the board and membership. > We have been entrusted by the board to do that community development. Perhaps you'll look at it as semantics -- but my read is that we've been entrusted with *coordination* of said community development. So yes: "we drink and we know things" until such a point that a charter gets clarified. > I want the ASF to still be here in 50 years, and I want the ASF in 50 > years to be something that we would recognize. It's not enough to drink > and know things - though I recommend both of these things highly. We > need to be actively training the young'uns to run with our passion when > we aren't there any more. Once again - young'uns in terms of the project age is the IPMC's job. young'uns in terms on n00bs coming to existing ASF projects is individual PMC's job. So what's left for ComDev? Policing? That later point is why I felt compelled to pile on top of Bertrand was saying. I really don't want ComDev to become the owners of "The Apache Way". That's membership's job. Even less do I want ComDev to get in the business of policing. > No doubt someone will say that this is the Incubator's job. The > Incubator is there to train projects at onboarding. No way! That's just not the case given the IPMC charter. I really strongly disagree with you restricting it that way. > We are here to > develop community, and encourage projects to continue doing what the > Incubator taught them, and to draw them deeper into the ASF family. In a > sense ComDev picks up where the Incubator leaves off. And then at some > point we hand off to Attic. It's a circle of life thing. See. That's where my problem with your proposal really begins -- the PMC is really either ready or not. If it is ready -- it MUST be capable of self-managing. That includes "training the young'uns" and proliferating ASF culture. And if PMC needs resources and/or help -- sure there will be ComDev ready to help. "Apache Way" governance model is appealing precisely because of the same reason that US federal model is: there's a non-negotiable culture statement called Constitution. The rest is left up to the states. And yes Feds can create programs to get state's attention (mostly via financial incentives) but other that that states are free to define their own policies (still within what's allowed by the constitution). But ok, you're clearly increasing the charter of ComDev. That's actually fine as long as the principle of PMC independence I stated above holds. ||| * Increase community diversity. Identify projects that are monocultures ||| (or near to them) and help them actively pursue broade
Re: [QUESTION] Is Maven Central part of the ASF infrastructure?
I think my question was lost in the details. It makes sense that Maven defaults to using repo.maven.apache.org for the reasons stated. However, I was wondering why repo.maven.apache.org points to repo.apache.maven.org / 151.101.32.215 (currently non-canonical*) instead of repo.maven.apache.org pointing to repo1.maven.org / 151.101.32.209, (currently canonical*) Looking at DNS alone, these are separate destinations. However, for all I know, Sonatype considers them equivalent internally and load-balances between them. The inconsistency with the resolution of the default and the resolution of what is documented is still confusing, though, to anybody looking at the DNS entries. * canonical according to Sonatype; in practice, whatever repo.maven.apache.org points to could be considered canonical "central" repo. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:22 PM Stephen Connolly < stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com> wrote: > One of the reasons why we have maven point to repo.maven.apache.org is > such > that if "the worst" happened, and sonatype was no longer providing the > service *and* there were delays transferring the maven.org domains then > the > Maven PMC would be able to re-point the domain under our control > immediately to one of the other non-sonatype replicas and allow continuity > of service for users. > > We do not envision this being required, but we have plans in place just in > case > > HTH > > On Fri 2 Dec 2016 at 16:35, Mark Struberg > wrote: > > > No that's perfectly fine as is. > > > > Apache Maven uses the maven.apache.org domain. It *currently* points to > > maven.org, which is co-operated by Sonatype and the Apache Maven PMC. > > Sonatype hosts the maven.org domain and pays the servers and all the > > bandwith (which would cost the ASF quite a lot). Otoh Sonatype gained a > lot > > of impact and data and thus I'm pretty sure it indirectly pays off for > > them. There is a MOU on file between the ASF and Sonatype. It took us > quite > > a bit of discussions to reach this agreement and it proved to be a good > > compromise as far as I can tell. > > > > LieGrue, > > strub > > > > > Am 02.12.2016 um 10:41 schrieb Christopher : > > > > > > I wonder if ASF should update its CNAMEs to point to repo1.maven.org > > > instead of repo.apache.maven.org, since Sonatype lists repo1.maven.org > > as > > > Central's canonical location. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:17 AM Mark Struberg > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> This is the domain Apache Maven uses as default repository. > > >> It is a CNAME dns entry currently pointing to maven.org. > > >> > > >> LieGrue, > > >> Strub > > >> > > >>> Am 02.12.2016 um 09:39 schrieb Jacques Le Roux < > > >> jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com>: > > >>> > > >>> Thanks Roman, Manfred, > > >>> > > >>> It's clear now. Just a last question, what is exactly > > >> http://repo.maven.apache.org/maven2/ < > > http://repo.maven.apache.org/maven2/> > > >> ? > > >>> > > >>> Jacques > > >>> > > >>> > > Le 01/12/2016 à 23:24, Manfred Moser a écrit : > > Correct. There are a number of other large repositories that also > feed > > >> into the Central Repo and the ASF has some control over all of it from > > all > > >> I know. > > > > Manfred > > > > Roman Shaposhnik wrote on 2016-12-01 14:23: > > > > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Jacques Le Roux > > > wrote: > > >> I'm new to the Maven world (through Gradle), and I wonder: is > Maven > > >> Central > > >> part of the ASF infrastructure? > > > No. But it does mirror all of the artifacts released by ASF. The > > > official ASF Maven repository is at: > > > http://repository.apache.org > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Roman. > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> - > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > >> > > >> > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > -- > Sent from my phone >
Re: Want to Contribute
Hi Shayak, If you are interested in contributing to Apache Rya (incubating), let me know or send a message to d...@rya.incubator.apache.org. Rya is an RDF triple store build on top of Apache Accumulo (on top of Apache Hadoop). Programming language used is Java. You can find more info at http://rya.incubator.apache.org/ Rya is still in the incubator, so quite small. Best, Adina On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 12/06/2016 10:55 AM, Shayak Sadhu wrote: > > Thank you, can you please suggest me some small project to which I can > > contribute. > > If you look at http://projects.apache.org/ you can navigate the projects > either by programming language - > https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?language - or by topic - > https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?category - to find one that > most closely fits your particular interests. > > --Rich > > > > > On 06-Dec-2016 9:02 PM, "Niclas Hedhman" wrote: > > > >> On the other hand, it is typically easier to find a smaller project to > help > >> out on. The appreciation is much higher and possibly you will more > quickly > >> gain influence in the project. > >> > >> Cheers > >> Niclas > >> > >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Raphael Bircher < > rbircherapa...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Shayak > >>> > >>> Ok, that's not my area. I think you can just go to the dev List of > Hadoop > >>> and introduce your self. I'm sure they help you to get in. If not, come > >>> back here and ask again. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Raphael > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Am 12/6/2016 um 9:20 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > >>> > Hello Raphael, > I am well accustomed to C,Java and Python programming. I have some > experience in research works (plz check out my google scholar profile > >> for > more info). I am now learning big data analytics tools like Hadoop and > Hive. I do have some hands-on hadoop. > > Regards, > Shayak Sadhu > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Raphael Bircher < > >> rbircherapa...@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > Hi Shayak > > > > > > Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > > > > Hello, > >> I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. > >> > >> Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your > > interest. It's easier to find a project > > > > Regards, Raphael > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > >>> > >>> - > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer > >> http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java > >> > > > > > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon > > -- http://www.usna.edu/Users/cs/adina/
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On 12/06/2016 01:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > I'd like to strongly echo Bertrand here. To me, ComDev is first, and foremost > an ASF's braintrust if you will of things that have to do with > community development, > governance and all around non-coding. It is a place to come and ask > for advice, etc. > > Of course, anything we can do to clean up documentation or provide > better guidance > is welcome, but I don't think ComDev is responsible for community > development of ASF > the same way that Rich is responsible for it at his day job. So, to quote Tyrion Lannister, we drink and we know things? Well, the point of this thread is that I think that's not enough any more. It's taking the easy way out, and will eventually lead to an ASF where more and more projects are satellites, disconnected from the central ASF community, and we no longer share any commonality between ASF projects. Any community (or company, or country, or whatever) that grows at the rate that the ASF is growing risks losing its identity unless culture is actively preserved - unless community is actively developed. We have been entrusted by the board to do that community development. I want the ASF to still be here in 50 years, and I want the ASF in 50 years to be something that we would recognize. It's not enough to drink and know things - though I recommend both of these things highly. We need to be actively training the young'uns to run with our passion when we aren't there any more. No doubt someone will say that this is the Incubator's job. The Incubator is there to train projects at onboarding. We are here to develop community, and encourage projects to continue doing what the Incubator taught them, and to draw them deeper into the ASF family. In a sense ComDev picks up where the Incubator leaves off. And then at some point we hand off to Attic. It's a circle of life thing. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On 12/06/2016 07:26 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: >> Hi Rich, >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> ...I think it's >>> fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on >>> the planet, to have a similar level of rigor... >> >> I'm +0 on better defining the goals of comdev - meaning I think it's a >> good idea but I don't have time to contribute much to that myself at >> the moment. >> >> However I think we should not make people feel bad if they cannot help >> as much as we or they would like to, by setting unrealistic goals. >> >> Like any Apache project, comdev must enjoy whatever value its >> contributors add, while making it clear that people are free to >> contribute as much or as little as they are willing and able. >> >> I hope we agree on that and I think we do, I'm just slightly worried >> that your initiative might be interpreted in the wrong way. > > I'd like to strongly echo Bertrand here. To me, ComDev is first, and foremost > an ASF's braintrust if you will of things that have to do with > community development, > governance and all around non-coding. It is a place to come and ask > for advice, etc. > > Of course, anything we can do to clean up documentation or provide > better guidance > is welcome, but I don't think ComDev is responsible for community > development of ASF > the same way that Rich is responsible for it at his day job. It is the > same way with Incubator. > IPMC is not really in business of making sure there's a steady > pipeline of projects -- we're > just there to help (and do our best!) when there's a steady pipeline. I don't believe the IPMC's job is to create projects, and I don't think that's stated anywhere? The task of ComDev IS to promote participation and develop communities, so having a strategy and some measurements on whether what we're doing even falls within ComDev's mission seems right to me. Of course it's not responsible to the entirety of the ASF's communities - no one has stated that anywhere - but it has a mission nonetheless, and the PMC should try to adhere to that mission. I might ask; What else is the purpose of this PMC? Why have a PMC, if the PMC is unwilling to do anything but their own individual interests with seemingly little to no regard to whether it's within the mission and reason behind ComDev. It's supposed to be a Project Management Committee, and yet we're reluctant to manage anything here. I for one would very much like for that to change. I would like to see PMC members being proactive, engaged and discussing what we are doing, whether it helps the project's mission, and what we can improve upon. Being on this PMC should not be a vanity plate, it should be an active role with responsibilities as with any other committee in the foundation. And lastly, I think getting some measurements (whether they be qualitative or quantitative) on what we've been doing so far is an important first step to figuring out if we are doing the right thing. Much like testing your software after you've written the code or gaging if your national school system is providing educated children. If it doesn't work at all, you do your best to fix it. With regards, Daniel. > > Thanks, > Roman (as a ComDev PMC member). > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [QUESTION] Is Maven Central part of the ASF infrastructure?
One of the reasons why we have maven point to repo.maven.apache.org is such that if "the worst" happened, and sonatype was no longer providing the service *and* there were delays transferring the maven.org domains then the Maven PMC would be able to re-point the domain under our control immediately to one of the other non-sonatype replicas and allow continuity of service for users. We do not envision this being required, but we have plans in place just in case HTH On Fri 2 Dec 2016 at 16:35, Mark Struberg wrote: > No that's perfectly fine as is. > > Apache Maven uses the maven.apache.org domain. It *currently* points to > maven.org, which is co-operated by Sonatype and the Apache Maven PMC. > Sonatype hosts the maven.org domain and pays the servers and all the > bandwith (which would cost the ASF quite a lot). Otoh Sonatype gained a lot > of impact and data and thus I'm pretty sure it indirectly pays off for > them. There is a MOU on file between the ASF and Sonatype. It took us quite > a bit of discussions to reach this agreement and it proved to be a good > compromise as far as I can tell. > > LieGrue, > strub > > > Am 02.12.2016 um 10:41 schrieb Christopher : > > > > I wonder if ASF should update its CNAMEs to point to repo1.maven.org > > instead of repo.apache.maven.org, since Sonatype lists repo1.maven.org > as > > Central's canonical location. > > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:17 AM Mark Struberg > > wrote: > > > >> This is the domain Apache Maven uses as default repository. > >> It is a CNAME dns entry currently pointing to maven.org. > >> > >> LieGrue, > >> Strub > >> > >>> Am 02.12.2016 um 09:39 schrieb Jacques Le Roux < > >> jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com>: > >>> > >>> Thanks Roman, Manfred, > >>> > >>> It's clear now. Just a last question, what is exactly > >> http://repo.maven.apache.org/maven2/ < > http://repo.maven.apache.org/maven2/> > >> ? > >>> > >>> Jacques > >>> > >>> > Le 01/12/2016 à 23:24, Manfred Moser a écrit : > Correct. There are a number of other large repositories that also feed > >> into the Central Repo and the ASF has some control over all of it from > all > >> I know. > > Manfred > > Roman Shaposhnik wrote on 2016-12-01 14:23: > > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Jacques Le Roux > > wrote: > >> I'm new to the Maven world (through Gradle), and I wonder: is Maven > >> Central > >> part of the ASF infrastructure? > > No. But it does mirror all of the artifacts released by ASF. The > > official ASF Maven repository is at: > > http://repository.apache.org > > > > Thanks, > > Roman. > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > >>> > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > -- Sent from my phone
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi Rich, > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >> ...I think it's >> fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on >> the planet, to have a similar level of rigor... > > I'm +0 on better defining the goals of comdev - meaning I think it's a > good idea but I don't have time to contribute much to that myself at > the moment. > > However I think we should not make people feel bad if they cannot help > as much as we or they would like to, by setting unrealistic goals. > > Like any Apache project, comdev must enjoy whatever value its > contributors add, while making it clear that people are free to > contribute as much or as little as they are willing and able. > > I hope we agree on that and I think we do, I'm just slightly worried > that your initiative might be interpreted in the wrong way. I'd like to strongly echo Bertrand here. To me, ComDev is first, and foremost an ASF's braintrust if you will of things that have to do with community development, governance and all around non-coding. It is a place to come and ask for advice, etc. Of course, anything we can do to clean up documentation or provide better guidance is welcome, but I don't think ComDev is responsible for community development of ASF the same way that Rich is responsible for it at his day job. It is the same way with Incubator. IPMC is not really in business of making sure there's a steady pipeline of projects -- we're just there to help (and do our best!) when there's a steady pipeline. Thanks, Roman (as a ComDev PMC member). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On 12/6/16, 3:36 AM, "Rich Bowen" wrote: >On Dec 6, 2016 6:10 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" >wrote: > >I hope we agree on that and I think we do, I'm just slightly worried >that your initiative might be interpreted in the wrong way. > >I am confident that my initiative will be interpreted the wrong way. Seems >to be the way of things. Don't know if this will help, but this thread caused me to look up some definitions of words like "goals", "strategies" and "plans". There seems to be different interpretations, but I sort of liked the following: -goal: Statement of what you want to achieve -strategy: The current plan under execution. -plan: A set of steps to execute. In other words, if you have a goal to increase number of committers, you might have a plan A and a plan B, and the strategy might be to execute on plan A and fall back to plan B. So under these definitions, I think ComDev should certainly have goals. Rich wrote (snipped heavily for brevity): 1) Increase community diversity. 2) Develop tools (documentation, training materials, and software tools) that projects can use to promote themselves and attract new participants. 3) Educate projects on the Apache Way, so that they can more richly experience the organization that they have attached themselves to. 4) Strengthen the bonds between projects and the larger Foundation. 5) It's not about marketing, but we should be working very closely with marketing (press@) to promote what our projects are doing, and promote the idea of the ASF as a place where innovation happens. 6) Internal promotion and cheerleading. Many of our projects have no idea what other projects are doing, and don't care. Doing a degree of internal cheerleading, along with the education, is critical for building exprit de corps. IMO, 1, 3, maybe 4 are goals. 2, 5, 6 are parts of a plan. The goals could use some success metrics (closer matching to the world-wide demographics of developers, fewer wayward projects for the board to handle). But I sort of agree with Bertrand that there may not need to be a well-defined strategy and plans for ComDev. It is fine for ComDev to have managers whose job is to facilitate and arbitrate on activities. Those people answer the "how can I help" with "here are the goals, here are things some people are doing, help them out or come up with your own idea". But I thought Bertrand's point was to make sure folks are encourage to come up with their own ideas. The only measurement is whether it can be argued as helping achieve the goals, not necessarily whether it matches up with any steps in plans being executed by others. I live in a smallish community that is growing because it is a nice place to live. Folks move here, bring their volunteer ideas about how to make living here a bit better, and generally, are told to go for it. There is one volunteer group with a few folks who network between all of the other volunteers and volunteer organizations in this community to try to coordinate efforts and deal with conflict. ComDev only has to be that one group. My 2 cents, -Alex
回复：Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric
Oh, will do. Ted Liu 2016年12月6日星期二 时间:19:46，Rich Bowen 写道： Ted, this task is no longer active and needs to be closed. Perhaps you can find another task that looks interesting? On Dec 5, 2016 10:10 PM, "Liu Ted" wrote: I would like to help out with the task listed at https://helpwanted.apache.org/ task.html?3c264f0f Ted Liu
Re: Want to Contribute
On 12/06/2016 10:55 AM, Shayak Sadhu wrote: > Thank you, can you please suggest me some small project to which I can > contribute. If you look at http://projects.apache.org/ you can navigate the projects either by programming language - https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?language - or by topic - https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?category - to find one that most closely fits your particular interests. --Rich > > On 06-Dec-2016 9:02 PM, "Niclas Hedhman" wrote: > >> On the other hand, it is typically easier to find a smaller project to help >> out on. The appreciation is much higher and possibly you will more quickly >> gain influence in the project. >> >> Cheers >> Niclas >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Raphael Bircher >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Shayak >>> >>> Ok, that's not my area. I think you can just go to the dev List of Hadoop >>> and introduce your self. I'm sure they help you to get in. If not, come >>> back here and ask again. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Raphael >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 12/6/2016 um 9:20 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: >>> Hello Raphael, I am well accustomed to C,Java and Python programming. I have some experience in research works (plz check out my google scholar profile >> for more info). I am now learning big data analytics tools like Hadoop and Hive. I do have some hands-on hadoop. Regards, Shayak Sadhu On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Raphael Bircher < >> rbircherapa...@gmail.com > wrote: Hi Shayak > > > Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > > Hello, >> I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. >> >> Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your > interest. It's easier to find a project > > Regards, Raphael > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer >> http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java >> > -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Want to Contribute
Thank you, can you please suggest me some small project to which I can contribute. On 06-Dec-2016 9:02 PM, "Niclas Hedhman" wrote: > On the other hand, it is typically easier to find a smaller project to help > out on. The appreciation is much higher and possibly you will more quickly > gain influence in the project. > > Cheers > Niclas > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Raphael Bircher > wrote: > > > Hi Shayak > > > > Ok, that's not my area. I think you can just go to the dev List of Hadoop > > and introduce your self. I'm sure they help you to get in. If not, come > > back here and ask again. > > > > Kind regards, > > Raphael > > > > > > > > Am 12/6/2016 um 9:20 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > > > >> Hello Raphael, > >> I am well accustomed to C,Java and Python programming. I have some > >> experience in research works (plz check out my google scholar profile > for > >> more info). I am now learning big data analytics tools like Hadoop and > >> Hive. I do have some hands-on hadoop. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Shayak Sadhu > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Raphael Bircher < > rbircherapa...@gmail.com > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Shayak > >>> > >>> > >>> Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > >>> > >>> Hello, > I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. > > Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your > >>> interest. It's easier to find a project > >>> > >>> Regards, Raphael > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > -- > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer > http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java >
Re: Want to Contribute
On the other hand, it is typically easier to find a smaller project to help out on. The appreciation is much higher and possibly you will more quickly gain influence in the project. Cheers Niclas On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote: > Hi Shayak > > Ok, that's not my area. I think you can just go to the dev List of Hadoop > and introduce your self. I'm sure they help you to get in. If not, come > back here and ask again. > > Kind regards, > Raphael > > > > Am 12/6/2016 um 9:20 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > >> Hello Raphael, >> I am well accustomed to C,Java and Python programming. I have some >> experience in research works (plz check out my google scholar profile for >> more info). I am now learning big data analytics tools like Hadoop and >> Hive. I do have some hands-on hadoop. >> >> Regards, >> Shayak Sadhu >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Raphael Bircher > > >> wrote: >> >> Hi Shayak >>> >>> >>> Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: >>> >>> Hello, I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your >>> interest. It's easier to find a project >>> >>> Regards, Raphael >>> >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >>> >>> >>> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: proposal for a GSoC post-mortem survey
On Dec 6, 2016 6:41 AM, "Rich Bowen" wrote: Given that what I proposed was step one and you want to jump straight to step 12, obviously I'm +1 on this. I'm told this comes across as a potshot at Uli. This is not my intent. This solution gives all I wanted and more. I approve of this solution On Dec 6, 2016 3:59 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote: > Hi ComDev community, > > since I believe that measuring two data points only to measure the success > of programs like GSoC in > building communities is going to do more harm than good, I want to propose > a post-mortem survey that > hopefully captures a more complete picture. Here is my first proposal, > let's discuss. > > Cheers, > > Uli > > *DRAFT* > > Please specify the name of the student you mentored (free text) > > Do *you* consider GSoC 2016 a success for your project? (yes/no) > > Why or why not? (free text) > > Do you feel your time spent was worth it? (very high value for time > spent:very low value for time spent) > > Did the student stick around after GSoC concluded? (yes and still is, yes > briefly, no) > > Has the student been voted in as a committer or PMC member (yes/no) > > Does the student's code live on? (as a separate module, as part of the > project's codebase, no, other > - please specify) > > Should we continue participating in GSoC on a foundation level? (yes/no) > > If no, why not? > > Would you mentor a GSoC student again? (yes, no, under the following > circumstances - please specify) > > Please specify your Apache ID if you would be willing to discuss your > answers further. (free text) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
Re: proposal for a GSoC post-mortem survey
Ulrich Stärk wrote on 12/6/16 3:59 AM: > Hi ComDev community, > > since I believe that measuring two data points only to measure the success of > programs like GSoC in > building communities is going to do more harm than good, I want to propose a > post-mortem survey that > hopefully captures a more complete picture. Here is my first proposal, let's > discuss. This sounds like an excellent addition to our already excellent GSoC efforts! Separately, are we allowed to (by GSoC rules), and would it be practical, to do a short survey for exiting GSoC *students*, or even for last year's students? Along with capturing some data, it feels like it would be a good way for the ASF to try to maintain a relationship with the student (if they want to; if they ignore us that's fine too). > > Cheers, > > Uli > > *DRAFT* > > Please specify the name of the student you mentored (free text) Why don't we ask for Apache ID? That way we could do commit analysis if we wanted to. > > Do *you* consider GSoC 2016 a success for your project? (yes/no) > > Why or why not? (free text) For several questions: Should we try to capture somewhat structured data, instead of boolean/free text? I'd suggest the "success" use Likert scale or some similar degree question instead of boolean. "Why or why not?" could be two questions: a "type" and then a free text: - Why was this valuable? -- Added new module/functionality to your project -- Added useful new code to your project -- Spurred useful discussion about new code -- Added useful documentation, tests, or other things -- Created proof of concept that helped move project forward ...Or some general areas that might be helpful. > Do you feel your time spent was worth it? (very high value for time > spent:very low value for time spent) > > Did the student stick around after GSoC concluded? (yes and still is, yes > briefly, no) > > Has the student been voted in as a committer or PMC member (yes/no) > > Does the student's code live on? (as a separate module, as part of the > project's codebase, no, other > - please specify) > > Should we continue participating in GSoC on a foundation level? (yes/no) Definitely make this one an agreement scale, not boolean. > > If no, why not? > > Would you mentor a GSoC student again? (yes, no, under the following > circumstances - please specify) > > Please specify your Apache ID if you would be willing to discuss your answers > further. (free text) Thanks, excellent way to structure the survey. - Shane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Does GSoC help develop communities?
Hi ComDev, I am a PhD student from the Univesity of São Paulo, Brazil. I've been studying the range of outcomes of programs such as GSoC. So far, we have created a model of what motivates students to enter GSoC, considering both students and mentors perception. Our next task involves investigating whether (or how much) participation in GSoC addresses real needs of the communities, what is the impact of mentoring to the communities (big and small), what is the impact of the applicants' ranking and students' selection. I could notice that some of you have similar interests and I would like to help answering these questions so that the whole community can benefit from the studies. Best regards, Jeff
Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric
Ted, this task is no longer active and needs to be closed. Perhaps you can find another task that looks interesting? On Dec 5, 2016 10:10 PM, "Liu Ted" wrote: I would like to help out with the task listed at https://helpwanted.apache.org/task.html?3c264f0f Ted Liu
Re: proposal for a GSoC post-mortem survey
Given that what I proposed was step one and you want to jump straight to step 12, obviously I'm +1 on this. On Dec 6, 2016 3:59 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote: > Hi ComDev community, > > since I believe that measuring two data points only to measure the success > of programs like GSoC in > building communities is going to do more harm than good, I want to propose > a post-mortem survey that > hopefully captures a more complete picture. Here is my first proposal, > let's discuss. > > Cheers, > > Uli > > *DRAFT* > > Please specify the name of the student you mentored (free text) > > Do *you* consider GSoC 2016 a success for your project? (yes/no) > > Why or why not? (free text) > > Do you feel your time spent was worth it? (very high value for time > spent:very low value for time spent) > > Did the student stick around after GSoC concluded? (yes and still is, yes > briefly, no) > > Has the student been voted in as a committer or PMC member (yes/no) > > Does the student's code live on? (as a separate module, as part of the > project's codebase, no, other > - please specify) > > Should we continue participating in GSoC on a foundation level? (yes/no) > > If no, why not? > > Would you mentor a GSoC student again? (yes, no, under the following > circumstances - please specify) > > Please specify your Apache ID if you would be willing to discuss your > answers further. (free text) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
On Dec 6, 2016 6:10 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" wrote: I hope we agree on that and I think we do, I'm just slightly worried that your initiative might be interpreted in the wrong way. - I am confident that my initiative will be interpreted the wrong way. Seems to be the way of things.
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Ok, skip it then. However, I'm concerned that what we don't measure, we don't know how to improve. On Dec 6, 2016 3:36 AM, "Ulrich Stärk" wrote: > On 05.12.16 22:24, Rich Bowen wrote: > > So ... stepping back a bit here. Are you saying that even attempting to > > measure outcomes is harmful, because we might draw the wrong conclusions? > > > > This is a completely new notion to me. > > > > You say: > > > > "I am reluctant to simply collect some data because I am missing a clear > > question what we are trying to answer and how the data you want to > > collect is actually answering that question." > > > > I do have a clear question. My question is whether participating in the > > GSoC contributes to our goal of Community Development. Does it develop > > our community in any measurable way? I assume, at this point, that it > > does, or we wouldn't keep doing it. In what way has it had measurable > > impact on our community? > > > > Things that we can clearly measure is adding participants in our project > > communities, and artifacts added to our projects' revision control > > repositories. Measuring other things is more difficult, and can be taken > > as a later task. Easy things first. > > And here is what I'm afraid of: By focusing on those two simple dimensions > only we will from my > experience end up with a pretty skewed result. The dimensions you propose > don't cover code living on > outside our repositories as add-on modules, they don't cover indirect > contributions, etc. > > > > > The larger question of how and what we measure in the Community > > Development PMC as a whole hinges on this, too. I'm curious if you're > > resistant to that, too? > > I am resistant to what you are proposing to measure. I am resistant to > simplifying metrics. Those > tend to do more harm than good. > > Uli > > > > > --Rich > > > > > > > > On 12/05/2016 04:00 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > >> On 05.12.16 17:54, Rich Bowen wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > > Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data > going > >> forward? > Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? > > GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a > small amount for every accepted > student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as > long as we have volunteers willing > to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those > volunteers are seeing value in > it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? > >>> > >>> Or, perhaps, let me give a different answer. > >>> > >>> I participated in GSoC as a mentor for $WorkProject. While it didn't > >>> "cost" me anything in dollars, it cost me probably 200 hours of my > time. > >>> I know that other projects at work put more time in, and some less. > >>> > >>> This is an enormous cost to me, as an employee. So it behooves me to > >>> measure the benefit to the project. A student received payment to write > >>> code that was discarded. And I (and several of my colleagues) spent a > >>> huge amount of time, which I could have spent on other things, > mentoring > >>> that student. Benefit to project, pretty heavily negative. > >> > >> In that case you should have failed the student pretty early as I tell > mentors every year and as > >> documented in the mentor guide. > >> > >>> > >>> So, now, here we are at the ASF, doing GSoC with our projects, and > >>> promoting it to them as a benefit. Does it actually benefit them, or is > >>> it merely siphoning off time that could be spent on other things. > >> > >> If a mentor feels it is the latter, they should immediately fail the > student. > >> > >>> > >>> To folks that say we can't measure that, I strongly disagree. There are > >>> two measures that are obvious and easy. > >>> > >>> 1) What % of GSoC student are still active on the project 6 months, 12 > >>> months, 18 months after the project. (We can debate the definition of > >>> "active" all you like. > >> > >> This implies that the program is only successful if a certain number of > students sticks around. And > >> this is exactly what I'm arguing against. IMO the program is successful > as soon as a student has > >> some exposure to one of our communities. > >> > >>> > >>> 2) What % of code developed by GSoC students actually becomes a part of > >>> the project codebase at the end of the project? > >> > >> This has the same problems as trying to measure productivity from code. > What is the percentage > >> telling us about the question we want to answer? Also see above: If the > code cannot be part of the > >> project codebase the student should be failed. > >> > >>> > >>> I would maintain that #1 is part of our charter as ComDev, and #2 is > >>> part of what projects should be made aware of before they sign on. > >>> > >>> Again, I'm really not asking for a lot of data here. But I do think > that > >>> it's part of a responsible accounting fo
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
Hi Rich, On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > ...I think it's > fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on > the planet, to have a similar level of rigor... I'm +0 on better defining the goals of comdev - meaning I think it's a good idea but I don't have time to contribute much to that myself at the moment. However I think we should not make people feel bad if they cannot help as much as we or they would like to, by setting unrealistic goals. Like any Apache project, comdev must enjoy whatever value its contributors add, while making it clear that people are free to contribute as much or as little as they are willing and able. I hope we agree on that and I think we do, I'm just slightly worried that your initiative might be interpreted in the wrong way. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
Hi Rich Excellent post and I totally agree. Developing strategies and roadmaps isn't only for the ASF projects that produce a software product. Without a high level strategy or knowing (and communicating) exactly what we want to achieve we are just drifting and generally trying out new things as they come to mind. (For example I've always thought of community development as external facing, growing communities etc but we you've highlighted that we have a lot of work that we could do internally too where perhaps it matters the most). We have got to where we are by the work of the people wanting to start or do something which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I think that a strategy could really focus the community. Thank Sharan On 05/12/16 18:54, Rich Bowen wrote: As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't have a clear idea of what we're here for. I believe we need to fix that. Why This Matters 1) So that we know how to ask for help This matters because people *flock* to us saying "I want to help", and in pretty much every case our response is "Great! Help! We love you!" This is great, but utterly unhelpful. Once we have a clear idea of what goals we are working towards, we will have a better idea of how to tell people to help us. When people come to volunteer to help, we need to know what to tell them that they can do, and those things need to come out of an understanding of what we're trying to accomplish. At the moment, we're doing a number of things. Most of them, we have no idea whether they help. I assert that this is primarily because "help" is undefined. Help with *what*? 2) So that we know whether we're doing it Once we define what it is that we are trying to accomplish, we will be better able to measure the things that we are doing, to determine in some objective way whether they are moving us towards those goals. I realize that "community development" is an endless road. But we should at least know which direction we're walking on that road. 3) Because we owe the board a report every quarter We're supposed to report to the board every quarter telling them how we are doing on achieving the goals that they created us to pursue. Except that we don't know what those goals are. So, we engage in various efforts which may or may not do anything. Some, like GSoC, are noble, and clearly benefit one audience (the students that participate), and *might* benefit projects. Sounds like it does, based on the most recent responses on $otherthread. Awesome. But do they advance "community development". Hard to say before we define that. So, What's The Plan As a full-time community manager, I have a definition of community development that appears on my annual performance review. I think it's fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on the planet, to have a similar level of rigor. Here's some of the things that fall under this header, and which I believe should be part of our definition as the ComDev PMC - things that we should work towards, and measure every effort against. * Increase community diversity. Identify projects that are monocultures (or near to them) and help them actively pursue broader community diversity. * Develop tools (documentation, training materials, and software tools) that projects can use to promote themselves and attract new participants. (Participants is a very broad term here, and does not refer only to code jockeys.) * Educate projects on the Apache Way, so that they can more richly experience the organization that they have attached themselves to. Identify projects that appear to be operating outside of the Apache Way, and gently, kindly, lead them back to the light. * Strengthen the bonds between projects and the larger Foundation. Defining this is a whole other thread, but means several things to me. Identify projects that are satellites and build ties back to the "family", in terms of participating in events, participating in governance discussions, having adequate membership representation on the PMC, and so on. * It's not about marketing, but we should be working very closely with marketing (press@) to promote what our projects are doing, and promote the idea of the ASF as a place where innovation happens, thus drawing in an engaged and excited participant community. * Internal promotion and cheerleading. Marketing is outward facing. Community development is somewhat inward facing. Many of our projects have no idea what other projects are doing, and don't care. Doing a degree of internal cheerleading, along with the education, is critical for building exprit de corps. Ok, I think there's more, but that alone should keep us busy for 5 or 10 years, and give these volunteers that keep showing up a clearer idea of what things they can work on. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev
proposal for a GSoC post-mortem survey
Hi ComDev community, since I believe that measuring two data points only to measure the success of programs like GSoC in building communities is going to do more harm than good, I want to propose a post-mortem survey that hopefully captures a more complete picture. Here is my first proposal, let's discuss. Cheers, Uli *DRAFT* Please specify the name of the student you mentored (free text) Do *you* consider GSoC 2016 a success for your project? (yes/no) Why or why not? (free text) Do you feel your time spent was worth it? (very high value for time spent:very low value for time spent) Did the student stick around after GSoC concluded? (yes and still is, yes briefly, no) Has the student been voted in as a committer or PMC member (yes/no) Does the student's code live on? (as a separate module, as part of the project's codebase, no, other - please specify) Should we continue participating in GSoC on a foundation level? (yes/no) If no, why not? Would you mentor a GSoC student again? (yes, no, under the following circumstances - please specify) Please specify your Apache ID if you would be willing to discuss your answers further. (free text) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 05.12.16 22:24, Rich Bowen wrote: > So ... stepping back a bit here. Are you saying that even attempting to > measure outcomes is harmful, because we might draw the wrong conclusions? > > This is a completely new notion to me. > > You say: > > "I am reluctant to simply collect some data because I am missing a clear > question what we are trying to answer and how the data you want to > collect is actually answering that question." > > I do have a clear question. My question is whether participating in the > GSoC contributes to our goal of Community Development. Does it develop > our community in any measurable way? I assume, at this point, that it > does, or we wouldn't keep doing it. In what way has it had measurable > impact on our community? > > Things that we can clearly measure is adding participants in our project > communities, and artifacts added to our projects' revision control > repositories. Measuring other things is more difficult, and can be taken > as a later task. Easy things first. And here is what I'm afraid of: By focusing on those two simple dimensions only we will from my experience end up with a pretty skewed result. The dimensions you propose don't cover code living on outside our repositories as add-on modules, they don't cover indirect contributions, etc. > > The larger question of how and what we measure in the Community > Development PMC as a whole hinges on this, too. I'm curious if you're > resistant to that, too? I am resistant to what you are proposing to measure. I am resistant to simplifying metrics. Those tend to do more harm than good. Uli > > --Rich > > > > On 12/05/2016 04:00 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: >> On 05.12.16 17:54, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going >> forward? Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small amount for every accepted student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we have volunteers willing to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those volunteers are seeing value in it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? >>> >>> Or, perhaps, let me give a different answer. >>> >>> I participated in GSoC as a mentor for $WorkProject. While it didn't >>> "cost" me anything in dollars, it cost me probably 200 hours of my time. >>> I know that other projects at work put more time in, and some less. >>> >>> This is an enormous cost to me, as an employee. So it behooves me to >>> measure the benefit to the project. A student received payment to write >>> code that was discarded. And I (and several of my colleagues) spent a >>> huge amount of time, which I could have spent on other things, mentoring >>> that student. Benefit to project, pretty heavily negative. >> >> In that case you should have failed the student pretty early as I tell >> mentors every year and as >> documented in the mentor guide. >> >>> >>> So, now, here we are at the ASF, doing GSoC with our projects, and >>> promoting it to them as a benefit. Does it actually benefit them, or is >>> it merely siphoning off time that could be spent on other things. >> >> If a mentor feels it is the latter, they should immediately fail the student. >> >>> >>> To folks that say we can't measure that, I strongly disagree. There are >>> two measures that are obvious and easy. >>> >>> 1) What % of GSoC student are still active on the project 6 months, 12 >>> months, 18 months after the project. (We can debate the definition of >>> "active" all you like. >> >> This implies that the program is only successful if a certain number of >> students sticks around. And >> this is exactly what I'm arguing against. IMO the program is successful as >> soon as a student has >> some exposure to one of our communities. >> >>> >>> 2) What % of code developed by GSoC students actually becomes a part of >>> the project codebase at the end of the project? >> >> This has the same problems as trying to measure productivity from code. What >> is the percentage >> telling us about the question we want to answer? Also see above: If the code >> cannot be part of the >> project codebase the student should be failed. >> >>> >>> I would maintain that #1 is part of our charter as ComDev, and #2 is >>> part of what projects should be made aware of before they sign on. >>> >>> Again, I'm really not asking for a lot of data here. But I do think that >>> it's part of a responsible accounting for participating in GSoC. If, for >>> example, it is actually hindering projects, don't we want to know that. >>> >>> I did *not* participate in GSoC again, on $WorkProject, because it >>> clearly hindered my project. >>> >>> >> >> I am reluctant to simply collect some data because I am missing a clear >> question what we are tryin
Re: Want to Contribute
Hi Shayak Ok, that's not my area. I think you can just go to the dev List of Hadoop and introduce your self. I'm sure they help you to get in. If not, come back here and ask again. Kind regards, Raphael Am 12/6/2016 um 9:20 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: Hello Raphael, I am well accustomed to C,Java and Python programming. I have some experience in research works (plz check out my google scholar profile for more info). I am now learning big data analytics tools like Hadoop and Hive. I do have some hands-on hadoop. Regards, Shayak Sadhu On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote: Hi Shayak Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: Hello, I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your interest. It's easier to find a project Regards, Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Want to Contribute
Hello Raphael, I am well accustomed to C,Java and Python programming. I have some experience in research works (plz check out my google scholar profile for more info). I am now learning big data analytics tools like Hadoop and Hive. I do have some hands-on hadoop. Regards, Shayak Sadhu On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote: > Hi Shayak > > > Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: > >> Hello, >> I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. >> > Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your > interest. It's easier to find a project > > Regards, Raphael > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
