Re: [racket-dev] racket-5.3.[34] compilation failure SIGSEGV MAPERR si_code 1 fault
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 14-06-13 11:39, Marijn wrote: > Hi list, > > racket-5.3.3 and 5.3.4 are today both failing to compile for me > with: > > raco setup: in r5rs/private raco setup: in > typed-racket/optimizer SIGSEGV MAPERR si_code 1 fault on addr > 0x130 > > I get this error using gcc versions 4.5.3, 4.6.3 and 4.7.3. My > glibc is 2.17, but I have a bug report of a very similar failure[1] > using glibc-2.15: > > raco setup: 1 making: math/private/vector raco setup: 1 making: > math/scribblings raco setup: --- updating info-domain tables --- > SIGSEGV MAPERR si_code 1 fault on addr 0x40 > > which also contains this backtrace: > > [New LWP 9579] [New LWP 9514] [New LWP 9528] [New LWP 9581] [Thread > debugging using libthread_db enabled] Using host libthread_db > library "/lib/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by > `/var/tmp/portage/dev-scheme/racket-5.3.3/work/racket-5.3.3/src/racket/.libs/rac'. > > Program terminated with signal 6, Aborted. > #0 0xb76e58d2 in _dl_sysinfo_int80 () from /lib/ld-linux.so.2 > (gdb) bt #0 0xb76e58d2 in _dl_sysinfo_int80 () from > /lib/ld-linux.so.2 #1 0xb71bf2b1 in *__GI_raise (sig=6) at > ../nptl/sysdeps/unix/sysv/linux/raise.c:64 #2 0xb71c0a8e in > *__GI_abort () at abort.c:91 #3 0xb761f427 in fault_handler () > from > /var/tmp/portage/dev-scheme/racket-5.3.3/work/racket-5.3.3/src/racket/.libs/libracket3m-5.3.3.so > > #4 > #5 0xa2e9d7a9 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 #6 0xb7320d3f in > __nptl_deallocate_tsd () at pthread_create.c:155 #7 0xb7320f15 in > start_thread (arg=0xb200bb40) at pthread_create.c:312 #8 > 0xb727e64e in clone () at > ../sysdeps/unix/sysv/linux/i386/clone.S:133 (gdb) q > > > I was able to compile 5.3.3 fine in February, although drracket > won't start (anymore?), but gracket will: > > > set-loaded-mask method in bitmap%: contract violation expected: > (is-a?/c bitmap%) given: #f in: the 1st argument of the > set-loaded-mask method in bitmap%/c contract from: > /racket/draw.rkt blaming: > /drracket/private/frame-icon.rkt at: > /racket/draw.rkt:58.19 context...: > /usr/lib64/racket/collects/racket/contract/private/blame.rkt:89:0: > raise-blame-error > /usr/lib64/racket/collects/drracket/private/frame-icon.rkt: > [running body] > /usr/lib64/racket/collects/drracket/private/drracket-normal.rkt: > [traversing imports] > /usr/lib64/racket/collects/drracket/drracket.rkt: [running body] > > > My cairo is version 1.12.14. > > I tried googling the SIGSEGV MAPERR error and got some other > mentions of the problem dating back a long time, but no-one seemed > to have any clue what was going on. > > Marijn > > [1]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=471978 Version 5.3.6 seems to have cleared up this problem. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlITMZIACgkQp/VmCx0OL2xQkwCeO40LLhfM2P43JpGRxA2DKOlh rbwAnRBYawszidy2b6KWgiForE2g1Kfs =LHfi -END PGP SIGNATURE- _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] white bar in lhs of comment box: bug or feature?
Looks like the images in the corners (the semicolon in this case) don't have a transparent background. If they did, then this would be a straightforward change: the code that does the drawing is in the 'draw' method in pkgs/gui-pkgs/gui-lib/framework/private/decorated-editor-snip.rkt. Robby On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:27 PM, John Clements wrote: > In the attached screenshot (hopefully small enough to get through the size > filter), I see that the background of the "comment semicolon" is rendered > in white, regardless of the background color. Based on the lack of space > between that bar and the enclosed text, I'm imagining this is a bug. On > the other hand, it's kind of nice to be able to see the extent of the box > clearly. I'll submit a PR if this is actually a bug; it seems like it could > be a one-line fix. > > John > > > > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > > _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
The new design looks good on my iPhone and on desktop. It is a good improvement over the old site. To add to Neil's comment about dividing into two sections for experienced programmers and educational outreach for aspiring programmers. One issue I often see with others when talking about Racket is that they think it's just an educational platform for middle school to high school. They don't realize it's also a full service serious language for serious programming. I think the web redesign should spend some effort on emphasizing that part. However, although HTDP is intended for beginners, I still bought it anyway as my introduction to Racket and to rework and improve my habits. It is still good resource even for experienced people, so I'd hate to see it hidden away behind a "For Beginner" button. I'm not sure whether segregating completely the advanced and beginner materials is the right way to do it. Alex On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > Ok, that makes sense. Can you file this as an issue on the GitHub > repository I just mentioned? > > Sam > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Stephen Chang > wrote: > >>> - web scraper example is cut off when clicking "?" Maybe make the > >>> overlay window variable width? > >> > >> I'm not sure what you mean. Can you include a screenshot? > > > > Screenshot attached. > > > > Obviously not a huge issue but looking into it more, the example gets > > cut off only because my browser window width is too small (monitor is > > in portrait). If I increase the window width then the entire example > > is visible. Still, it seemed weird because there was plenty of space > > on either side. > > > > > >> > >>> > >>> on mobile (android 4.1.2, default browser): > >>> - topright menu has very dark background when opened, so links are not > >>> very visible > >> > >> I'll check this out. > >> > >> Thanks for the feedback! > >> > >> Sam > >> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt > >>> wrote: > Recently I (with assistance from Asumu) have spent some time drafting > a revised home page for Racket. A revised web page will nicely > complement the big upcoming release, I hope. You can see the draft > here, which is ready for people to try out: > > http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/samth/new-web/ > > Some things to try out out: clicking the right and left arrows, > clicking the "?" box, visiting the RacketCon page. > > The new page addresses a few problems that I see with our current > page: > > 1. It works well on small devices, which our current page doesn't. > Try it out on a phone or a tablet. > 2. It reduces the size of the top header, which will lighten the > burden on the documentation pages, for example, or the pkg index if we > add the header there. > 3. It puts more info on the first page. This means that people are > more likely to see information about how to contribute to Racket or > approaches to learning programming using our tools. > 4. The font size is larger, which I think makes it much more readable. > > Perhaps more controversially, I adapted some prose about Racket from > Matthias' "Racket is ..." post, and added a tag line at the top. > > Lots of work is still needed if we want to use this as the basis for > Racket's web page (it's written in raw HTML, other pages would need > work, etc), but I hope that people like it enough to continue pursuing > this. > > Sam > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > >>> _ > >>> Racket Developers list: > >>> http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
HtDP is how I learned to program correctly *after* I got my bachelor's in CS. I still recommend it to coworkers and other experienced programmers so they can start to learn good coding habits. On Tuesday, August 20, 2013, Alexander McLin wrote: > The new design looks good on my iPhone and on desktop. It is a good > improvement over the old site. > > To add to Neil's comment about dividing into two sections for experienced > programmers and educational outreach for aspiring programmers. One issue I > often see with others when talking about Racket is that they think it's > just an educational platform for middle school to high school. They don't > realize it's also a full service serious language for serious programming. > I think the web redesign should spend some effort on emphasizing that part. > > However, although HTDP is intended for beginners, I still bought it anyway > as my introduction to Racket and to rework and improve my habits. It is > still good resource even for experienced people, so I'd hate to see it > hidden away behind a "For Beginner" button. I'm not sure whether > segregating completely the advanced and beginner materials is the right way > to do it. > > Alex > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt > > > wrote: > >> Ok, that makes sense. Can you file this as an issue on the GitHub >> repository I just mentioned? >> >> Sam >> >> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Stephen Chang >> > >> wrote: >> >>> - web scraper example is cut off when clicking "?" Maybe make the >> >>> overlay window variable width? >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what you mean. Can you include a screenshot? >> > >> > Screenshot attached. >> > >> > Obviously not a huge issue but looking into it more, the example gets >> > cut off only because my browser window width is too small (monitor is >> > in portrait). If I increase the window width then the entire example >> > is visible. Still, it seemed weird because there was plenty of space >> > on either side. >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> >> >>> on mobile (android 4.1.2, default browser): >> >>> - topright menu has very dark background when opened, so links are not >> >>> very visible >> >> >> >> I'll check this out. >> >> >> >> Thanks for the feedback! >> >> >> >> Sam >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt >> >>> > 'sa...@cs.indiana.edu');>> wrote: >> Recently I (with assistance from Asumu) have spent some time drafting >> a revised home page for Racket. A revised web page will nicely >> complement the big upcoming release, I hope. You can see the draft >> here, which is ready for people to try out: >> >> http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/samth/new-web/ >> >> Some things to try out out: clicking the right and left arrows, >> clicking the "?" box, visiting the RacketCon page. >> >> The new page addresses a few problems that I see with our current >> page: >> >> 1. It works well on small devices, which our current page doesn't. >> Try it out on a phone or a tablet. >> 2. It reduces the size of the top header, which will lighten the >> burden on the documentation pages, for example, or the pkg index if >> we >> add the header there. >> 3. It puts more info on the first page. This means that people are >> more likely to see information about how to contribute to Racket or >> approaches to learning programming using our tools. >> 4. The font size is larger, which I think makes it much more >> readable. >> >> Perhaps more controversially, I adapted some prose about Racket from >> Matthias' "Racket is ..." post, and added a tag line at the top. >> >> Lots of work is still needed if we want to use this as the basis for >> Racket's web page (it's written in raw HTML, other pages would need >> work, etc), but I hope that people like it enough to continue >> pursuing >> this. >> >> Sam >> _ >> Racket Developers list: >> http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev >> >>> _ >> >>> Racket Developers list: >> >>> http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev >> _ >> Racket Developers list: >> http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev >> > > _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:51 AM, Neil Van Dyke wrote: > Sam and Asumu, this looks like significant improvement in several ways, > thank you. > > Two comments: > > * There's a lot of stuff for a home page. I don't know whether this is good > or bad, but it's noticeable. This is intentional. I think people are more likely to see something there's interested in when there's more there, and expecting more clicks just reduces audience size. > * Under "Documentation" heading, the subheadings are confusing, IMHO. 5 of > the manuals are for experienced programmers. The other 1 is for children, > and makes Racket look like an educational toy, especially when it's listed > first. Are you referring to the "Quick" tutorial? I don't think that's aimed at children, per se -- just people who have no experience w/ Racket. > How about trimming a bunch of stuff from the main home page, and > having 2 big buttons to go to audience-specific home pages: > > (1) beginners and small children who want to see the pictures demo and/or > HtDP, and for whom the home page does not need code examples or links to > manuals, and to whom HtDP and RoR should be pushed strongly; > (2) and experienced programmers, who want to see most everything, and to > whom HtDP and RoR should should not be pushed near as much. > > The audience-specific home pages can have navigation cues so someone landing > on them can know which audience the page is for and that there is a page for > a different audience, too. Again, I don't think that adding extra clicks in everyone's work flow is a good idea. I also don't think we need to give up and assume that we can't create a page that works for everyone. Right now, almost the whole page aims at hackers rather than students, while integrating our key educational material. > * I don't see "PLaneT" anywhere. Is PLaneT going to be unpersoned entirely? No, not at all. There will certainly be links to Planet, although not as prominent as to the new package system. Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote at 08/20/2013 09:40 AM: Are you referring to the "Quick" tutorial? I don't think that's aimed at children, per se -- just people who have no experience w/ Racket. OK, I can only offer a single data point: to me, one glance at the "Quick" tutorial looks like "educational language for children; close browser tab and find another thing to look at." I don't know how anyone else perceives it. I also don't think we need to give up and assume that we can't create a page that works for everyone. OK. Neil V. _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Neil Van Dyke wrote: > Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote at 08/20/2013 09:40 AM: > >> Are you referring to the "Quick" tutorial? I don't think that's aimed >> at children, per se -- just people who have no experience w/ Racket. >> > > > OK, I can only offer a single data point: to me, one glance at the "Quick" > tutorial looks like "educational language for children; close browser tab > and find another thing to look at." I don't know how anyone else perceives > it. Can you say more about why this is? Is it the pictures? How does it compare to one of these tutorials for Processing: http://processing.org/tutorials/ ? Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote at 08/20/2013 09:52 AM: Can you say more about why this is? Is it the pictures? Yes, I scroll down the page and I see pictures and a simple picture language, and it seems to be using them to introduce some pretty simple and familiar concepts, so I assume it's for children. How does it compare to one of these tutorials for Processing: http://processing.org/tutorials/ ? Processing is considerably cooler, in a hipster-designer way, than Racket. Processing has street cred before people ever see a tutorial. Cool kids start from a very different position than us nerds, and even if they shouted, "Look at my circles, pledge dog, look at them!", people would lap it up. And the Processing circles probably would be cool circles. Neil V. _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
I dislike the switch to something that looks less unique -- this feels more like yet-another-site of a language. I can't really put a finger on what makes that, but I think that the big factor is the dark header. (I didn't like it when Matthew initially suggested it, but I think it ended up being a good visual signature.) Random comments: * (I do like a redo in general, the comments below don't mean that I don't like a revision...) * If this uses some JS trickery or sophisticated CSS hacks, then please consider the fact that the header needs to be inserted in very different contexts, like the blog header, directory listings, gnats, etc. * Also, have a look at the page using some text browser. I found this important not only for people who use such browsers (and they do exist), but also for similar users like screen readers and what web engines see on your page. (It's also a quick way to catch title/alt-less images, which you have there...) * An annoying bug with the header (possibly a browser bug (chrome on windows)): on a first scroll-down the header gets scrolled off to the top, and very quickly shows up again. I see the same effect when I use down, page-down, or the mouse wheel, and only when scrolling away from the top. (Looks like there's some JS code that kicks in when moving away from the top.) * The navbar links don't look enough like navbar links. (Personally, I like the background on mouse hover for that.) Also, it looks wrong now without such an effect but where the empty space between the links is still clickable. * The space between the Blog link and the Download button is too small. Instead of fixing that, I'd prefer it if the download button is flushed to the right to make it stand out more. * The "<" ">" navigations for the quick example are too emphasized -- it would be better to have them about half way faded. They're also too sharp -- I think that a "〈" "〉" brackets work better, or maybe arrows. (But it's bad to rely on such unicode characters on windows, unless the google trickery takes care of it.) * The floating div + darker page for the "?" thing is a nice touch, but such a darkening effect almost always comes with a click-outside-to-close-it thing instead of an explicit "x". * The "noise" background should scroll up with the page, or probably just as well remove it since it doesn't fit the more sterile look. * I'd like it if there was some visual separation between the code examples and the news -- some vertical bar between them, or a different bg or a frame around one/both. * Wasn't one of the early points of revision to include a twitter widget? Maybe in addition to a static set of news items. * The "Racket is a wide..." paragraph is probably blockquoted or something similar, which makes it look mis-aligned with the title. * I'd prefer it if "a programmable programming language" was uncapitalized, slightly smaller smaller, italicizedm, and with extra space before it instead of ":", so it looks more like a tag line rather than a very verbose page title. * "but also provides dialects that support" reads bad -- specifically the "but" seems like an excuse. Basically falling into the old trap of describing the language as a delta from lisp/scheme, rather than describing it on its own merit. (I like the clojure equivalent: the first part talks about the language by itself, and only then is lisp mentioned.) * The "Start Quickly", "News", etc headers look too-un-header-ish, too close to the text, resulting in a very verbosely crowded feeling. Some light background or an underline or anything that would make it more distinguished from the text would help that. * The "Draw more pictures or build a web ..." paragraph seems out of place and possibly redundant. With the tag-line and the new intro paragraph, it seems like a third piece of screen space dedicated to marketing. Also, it's full of the kind of wiki-like links that in this context I don't think are useful. * The "Go Further" header and "Documentation" headers seem badly aligned. (It looks like the headers were positioned so that the "Start Quickly" is in a good place, and the others follow even through it doesn't fit there.) I think that it's better if they're all very close to the left (or even flushed against it or going further left than the contents). (This is in addition to making them more header-like.) * These headers are also badly aligned vertically: see how "Go Further" is far from the text below, "Documentation" is closer, and "Learning" is even closer. * "Go Further" is possibly redundant, given the sub-sub-headers that are already in the text. Also, maybe there's no point in this whole part and just merge the relevant parts to the intro paragraph. * "For getting started" -> "For beginners"? * The red sub-sub-headers look too distracting, almost like links. I think that t
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Aug 19, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > 3. It puts more info on the first page. To my surprise, I like it. > 4. The font size is larger, which I think makes it much more readable. Speaking as an old person who has arrived in the age of reading glasses (I think) I am again surprised to say that I intensely dislike (1) the large font for the text and (2) the lack of white space around the perimeter Smaller font, more white space would be great. > Lots of work is still needed if we want to use this as the basis for > Racket's web page (it's written in raw HTML, other pages would need > work, etc), but I hope that people like it enough to continue pursuing > this. All in all, I really like the idea of renovating our home page. What I would like to see is that we get * a distinct home page * one that brings across that Racket is full spectrum technically -- you can gradually migrate from untyped to typed, from modules to components, ... educationally -- you can grow into Racket starting with Bootstrap, which I can't find socially -- you can join a variety of mailing lists, irc channels, twitter streams, etc. and that there are many kinds of Racket communities (edu, research, com, open source, secret cabals) and more Yes, I think that it is absolutely totally worthwhile and I am excited that it is happening. Yes, I think it will take a serious amount of work and that we're not there yet. And I want to thank you and Asumu and everyone who has already sent in comments on this effort. -- Matthias _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
I _really_ like the idea of giving it a fresh redesign and including more information on the home page. (comment (for-meta 1 #< wrote: > Recently I (with assistance from Asumu) have spent some time drafting > a revised home page for Racket. A revised web page will nicely > complement the big upcoming release, I hope. You can see the draft > here, which is ready for people to try out: > > http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/samth/new-web/ > > Some things to try out out: clicking the right and left arrows, > clicking the "?" box, visiting the RacketCon page. > > The new page addresses a few problems that I see with our current page: > > 1. It works well on small devices, which our current page doesn't. > Try it out on a phone or a tablet. > 2. It reduces the size of the top header, which will lighten the > burden on the documentation pages, for example, or the pkg index if we > add the header there. > 3. It puts more info on the first page. This means that people are > more likely to see information about how to contribute to Racket or > approaches to learning programming using our tools. > 4. The font size is larger, which I think makes it much more readable. > > Perhaps more controversially, I adapted some prose about Racket from > Matthias' "Racket is ..." post, and added a tag line at the top. > > Lots of work is still needed if we want to use this as the basis for > Racket's web page (it's written in raw HTML, other pages would need > work, etc), but I hope that people like it enough to continue pursuing > this. > > Sam > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
> One I encourage us to use was Google Web Optimizer (free). Typo there. I meant, "One thing I encouraged us to use..." in that past life. We found it helpful. (It's not really my role to encourage Racket doing this. Instead I wanted to point it out as a possible option.) On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Greg Hendershott wrote: > I _really_ like the idea of giving it a fresh redesign and including > more information on the home page. > > (comment (for-meta 1 #< > In a previous life I've participated in some web site redesigns. In my > experience people have many opinions with great reasoning, as well as > style preferences. It can be difficult to get a plurality much less > consensus. > > One I encourage us to use was Google Web Optimizer (free). This makes > it easier to run A/B or multivariate experiments by assigning visitors > different versions of a web site page. You measure "goals" such as > reaching some other page, a download, or a purchase. > > How this can help: > > - You're forced to define the goals -- what do you want to happen. > This includes who the audience(s) are. (Although there can be debate > about this, too, it's usually easier to resolve, or can be stipulated > as strategy by leadership.) > > - You can resolve some questions/debates with data -- one variation > performs better. > > - You may discover some variations don't matter. On the one hand it's > disappointing you don't get a clear "winner". On the other hand it > shows you don't need to sweat that part of it, and should probably > flip a coin to pick one and move on to other stuff. > > Obviously there are certain big things, like overall style or "tone" > or "values", that can't be driven by data. But like goals, they can be > stipulated by leadership. > > EOF > ) > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt > wrote: >> Recently I (with assistance from Asumu) have spent some time drafting >> a revised home page for Racket. A revised web page will nicely >> complement the big upcoming release, I hope. You can see the draft >> here, which is ready for people to try out: >> >> http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/samth/new-web/ >> >> Some things to try out out: clicking the right and left arrows, >> clicking the "?" box, visiting the RacketCon page. >> >> The new page addresses a few problems that I see with our current page: >> >> 1. It works well on small devices, which our current page doesn't. >> Try it out on a phone or a tablet. >> 2. It reduces the size of the top header, which will lighten the >> burden on the documentation pages, for example, or the pkg index if we >> add the header there. >> 3. It puts more info on the first page. This means that people are >> more likely to see information about how to contribute to Racket or >> approaches to learning programming using our tools. >> 4. The font size is larger, which I think makes it much more readable. >> >> Perhaps more controversially, I adapted some prose about Racket from >> Matthias' "Racket is ..." post, and added a tag line at the top. >> >> Lots of work is still needed if we want to use this as the basis for >> Racket's web page (it's written in raw HTML, other pages would need >> work, etc), but I hope that people like it enough to continue pursuing >> this. >> >> Sam >> _ >> Racket Developers list: >> http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
30 minutes ago, Matthias Felleisen wrote: > > All in all, I really like the idea of renovating our home page. What > I would like to see is that we get > > * a distinct home page > * one that brings across that Racket is full spectrum > technically -- you can gradually migrate from untyped to typed, from > modules to components, ... > educationally -- you can grow into Racket starting with Bootstrap, > which I can't find > socially -- you can join a variety of mailing lists, irc channels, > twitter streams, etc. > and that there are many kinds of Racket communities > (edu, research, com, open source, secret cabals) > and more This three-face spectrum thing sounds *really* good. Probably would work out well replacing the three "grow" sections. (And begs for some visual pun too.) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
And a major bug (chrome, now on linux): resizing the browser doesn't reposition the text in the middle. -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > And a major bug (chrome, now on linux): resizing the browser doesn't > reposition the text in the middle. Can you be more specific, perhaps with a screenshot? I just tried this with Chromium on Linux and it repositioned just fine. Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
Just now, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > And a major bug (chrome, now on linux): resizing the browser doesn't > > reposition the text in the middle. > > Can you be more specific, perhaps with a screenshot? I just tried > this with Chromium on Linux and it repositioned just fine. *sigh*; put this under senility... I have a sophisticated setup of three workspaces x four screen, with a vnc viewer using the same configuration, and I was using the wrong meta keys so I resized the vnc viewer window instead of the browser window... But there are still problems with resizing down to the point where it switches a display mode: * The "noise" background image is still at the previous place which is now completely bogus. * The "<" ">" arrows look very bad when shown vertically (would be really nice if they can switch to vertical arrows instead...) * The book images are huge compared to the text. * The RoR book is smaller than the others -- it's actually at a level that it can stay next to the text, so I think that the others should be at the same size. Screenshots that demonstrate the first two and the second two: http://tmp.barzilay.org/newracket1.png http://tmp.barzilay.org/newracket2.png -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > Just now, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: >> > And a major bug (chrome, now on linux): resizing the browser doesn't >> > reposition the text in the middle. >> >> Can you be more specific, perhaps with a screenshot? I just tried >> this with Chromium on Linux and it repositioned just fine. > > *sigh*; put this under senility... I have a sophisticated setup of > three workspaces x four screen, with a vnc viewer using the same > configuration, and I was using the wrong meta keys so I resized the > vnc viewer window instead of the browser window... > > But there are still problems with resizing down to the point where it > switches a display mode: > > * The "noise" background image is still at the previous place which is > now completely bogus. I don't understand what's wrong with the background image. The problem with the headings is known. > * The "<" ">" arrows look very bad when shown vertically (would be > really nice if they can switch to vertical arrows instead...) Yes, that would be better, but it's not easy. > * The book images are huge compared to the text. > > * The RoR book is smaller than the others -- it's actually at a level > that it can stay next to the text, so I think that the others should > be at the same size. I actually think the large images might work better on a small screen, but I'm unsure. Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
Just now, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > > > * The "noise" background image is still at the previous place > > which is now completely bogus. > > I don't understand what's wrong with the background image. The > problem with the headings is known. It was originally intended to be behind the code example -- now it stays there, and in narrow mode it's behind some random text. (But see previous email: I really think that it doesn't fit the new layout and should just be removed.) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
Apologies if this has been mentioned already (too much to read), but IMHO the sections are too close to one another. I'd personally add more padding-top to the h2, even up to 1.5em. Some h2 section headers (Documentation, Learning, Community) are also too close from their section body IMO too. At first glance it was difficult to identify the sections. Otherwise I like it a lot. Laurent On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 11:39 PM, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > Recently I (with assistance from Asumu) have spent some time drafting > a revised home page for Racket. A revised web page will nicely > complement the big upcoming release, I hope. You can see the draft > here, which is ready for people to try out: > > http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/samth/new-web/ > > Some things to try out out: clicking the right and left arrows, > clicking the "?" box, visiting the RacketCon page. > > The new page addresses a few problems that I see with our current page: > > 1. It works well on small devices, which our current page doesn't. > Try it out on a phone or a tablet. > 2. It reduces the size of the top header, which will lighten the > burden on the documentation pages, for example, or the pkg index if we > add the header there. > 3. It puts more info on the first page. This means that people are > more likely to see information about how to contribute to Racket or > approaches to learning programming using our tools. > 4. The font size is larger, which I think makes it much more readable. > > Perhaps more controversially, I adapted some prose about Racket from > Matthias' "Racket is ..." post, and added a tag line at the top. > > Lots of work is still needed if we want to use this as the basis for > Racket's web page (it's written in raw HTML, other pages would need > work, etc), but I hope that people like it enough to continue pursuing > this. > > Sam > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20 2013, Neil Van Dyke wrote: > Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote at 08/20/2013 09:52 AM: >> Can you say more about why this is? Is it the pictures? >> > > Yes, I scroll down the page and I see pictures and a simple picture > language, and it seems to be using them to introduce some pretty > simple and familiar concepts, so I assume it's for children. FWIW, i get the exact same feeling. I also share the opinion that the page looks overcrowded and, personally, find it easier to click than to scroll and try to find what i want in a big page. To add to the list of purely subjective opinions and wishes, i would also like to see a "pure hackers"-looking page i could point prejudiced colleagues to, with little emphasis on the educational aspects of Racket. Just my two cents, jao -- Nature uses as little as possible of anything. -Johannes Kepler, astronomer (1571-1630) _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Jose A. Ortega Ruiz wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20 2013, Neil Van Dyke wrote: > >> Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote at 08/20/2013 09:52 AM: >>> Can you say more about why this is? Is it the pictures? >>> >> >> Yes, I scroll down the page and I see pictures and a simple picture >> language, and it seems to be using them to introduce some pretty >> simple and familiar concepts, so I assume it's for children. > > FWIW, i get the exact same feeling. I think this is a sign that we need to revise the tutorial, not that we need to not link to it. For example, Quick is the only tutorial that doesn't assume the reader knows Lisp notation. > To add to the list of > purely subjective opinions and wishes, i would also like to see a "pure > hackers"-looking page i could point prejudiced colleagues to, with > little emphasis on the educational aspects of Racket. Relative to the page I've presented, what would be removed? The Quick tutorial (but see above) and all or some of the books? The Redex book is certainly advanced, but I don't know if it has the appeal you're looking for. Anything else? Thanks for the feedback, Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > I dislike the switch to something that looks less unique -- this feels > more like yet-another-site of a language. I can't really put a finger > on what makes that, but I think that the big factor is the dark > header. (I didn't like it when Matthew initially suggested it, but I > think it ended up being a good visual signature.) After trying this out, I agree, and I've switched to a black top bar. I've also added more space, as Laurent suggested, and fixed the cropping in the popup, as Stephen pointed out. I've revised the tag-line formatting, and darkened a few things, and taken some more of your suggestions that I've forgotten now. For the text of particular parts of the page, I'm open to basically all edits, but I'd really prefer to have suggested replacement text. Thanks for the very detailed feedback. Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
An hour ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Jose A. Ortega Ruiz wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 20 2013, Neil Van Dyke wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, I scroll down the page and I see pictures and a simple
> >> picture language, and it seems to be using them to introduce some
> >> pretty simple and familiar concepts, so I assume it's for
> >> children.
> >
> > FWIW, i get the exact same feeling.
>
> I think this is a sign that we need to revise the tutorial, not that
> we need to not link to it. For example, Quick is the only tutorial
> that doesn't assume the reader knows Lisp notation.
I can see where the problem is: assume that you're trying to convince
someone foreign to any lisp (or worse, someone who "remembers some
parens from an undergrad course 20 years ago") to do the next project
in Racket.
Perhaps a good way to resolve this would be to write a
Semi-Quick: An Introduction to Racket Hacking
text, and have a standout blurb at the top of each of the two Quicks
describing the style of the text and referring to the other Quick if
they prefer a more {hacker-oriented,playful} kind of an intro. Maybe
even go with another one:
Quasi-Quick: An Introduction to Racket for the Secular Hacker
Obviously, the main issue is who will write all of these things -- but
I think that it's much easier than it seems, assuming permissions of
the respective authors:
Semi-Quick: take Prabhakar's intro (cs.uwaterloo.ca/~plragde/tyr/) and
make it terse enough to fit a single (longish) page. I think that
this is a fine choice for an aspiring hacker -- the only part that
is missing, the advanced section, is probably the part that should
at best be a very quick overview for a bunch of things that you
could do, mostly serving as a link hub.
Quasi-Quick: this seems like it fits well the new Learn Racket in Y
Minutes (learnxinyminutes.com/docs/racket/), where the text is more
overview-ish, so is more oriented towards people who already know a
few languages and are mainly interested at a syntactic/what's-new
kind of overview. The main thing that is needed is a tiny bit more
prose to make it more readable (but very little, since this audience
is more interested in the code bits).
A good writer can probably bring both to a good level in a few hours.
--
((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay:
http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life!
_
Racket Developers list:
http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
An hour ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > I dislike the switch to something that looks less unique -- this > > feels more like yet-another-site of a language. I can't really > > put a finger on what makes that, but I think that the big factor > > is the dark header. (I didn't like it when Matthew initially > > suggested it, but I think it ended up being a good visual > > signature.) > > After trying this out, I agree, and I've switched to a black top > bar. I've also added more space, as Laurent suggested, and fixed > the cropping in the popup, as Stephen pointed out. I've revised the > tag-line formatting, and darkened a few things, and taken some more > of your suggestions that I've forgotten now. All of these look good to me. (Still a good amount of work to do, and I hope that it'll get there this time...) A quick idea that popped up today re the books: have a book bar as in the erlang page, but with popups that have the book descriptions. It can be much less intrusive while keeping the good general first-look impression, and it can accommodate many more books. -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > An hour ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Eli Barzilay wrote: >> > I dislike the switch to something that looks less unique -- this >> > feels more like yet-another-site of a language. I can't really >> > put a finger on what makes that, but I think that the big factor >> > is the dark header. (I didn't like it when Matthew initially >> > suggested it, but I think it ended up being a good visual >> > signature.) >> >> After trying this out, I agree, and I've switched to a black top >> bar. I've also added more space, as Laurent suggested, and fixed >> the cropping in the popup, as Stephen pointed out. I've revised the >> tag-line formatting, and darkened a few things, and taken some more >> of your suggestions that I've forgotten now. > > All of these look good to me. (Still a good amount of work to do, and > I hope that it'll get there this time...) > > A quick idea that popped up today re the books: have a book bar as in > the erlang page, but with popups that have the book descriptions. It > can be much less intrusive while keeping the good general first-look > impression, and it can accommodate many more books. What do you mean by pop-ups? Sam _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
A few minutes ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > A quick idea that popped up today re the books: have a book bar as > > in the erlang page, but with popups that have the book > > descriptions. It can be much less intrusive while keeping the > > good general first-look impression, and it can accommodate many > > more books. > > What do you mean by pop-ups? Just a div that is shown next to a book with the description text. Roughly like the ones that appear next to screen shots in the old page: http://plt-scheme.org/screenshots/. (Actually that same code could be used, just make it a horizontal widget instead of vertical, add some space between the images, and make a much smaller big--small size difference. It does have a few bugs which I fixed later, as seen on my pages, eg, http://barzilay.org/random/stuff2.html) -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > A few minutes ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: >> > A quick idea that popped up today re the books: have a book bar as >> > in the erlang page, but with popups that have the book >> > descriptions. It can be much less intrusive while keeping the >> > good general first-look impression, and it can accommodate many >> > more books. >> >> What do you mean by pop-ups? > > Just a div that is shown next to a book with the description text. > Roughly like the ones that appear next to screen shots in the old > page: http://plt-scheme.org/screenshots/. So, in the style of tooltips, rather than something to click on? _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
A few minutes ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > A few minutes ago, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > >> > A quick idea that popped up today re the books: have a book bar as > >> > in the erlang page, but with popups that have the book > >> > descriptions. It can be much less intrusive while keeping the > >> > good general first-look impression, and it can accommodate many > >> > more books. > >> > >> What do you mean by pop-ups? > > > > Just a div that is shown next to a book with the description text. > > Roughly like the ones that appear next to screen shots in the old > > page: http://plt-scheme.org/screenshots/. > > So, in the style of tooltips, rather than something to click on? You can have any html in there -- see for example the last blurb which has a link in it. -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Robby Findler wrote: > This looks fantastic! Thanks! +1 I really like the "programmable programming language" slogan. John _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
On Wed, Aug 21 2013, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Jose A. Ortega Ruiz wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 20 2013, Neil Van Dyke wrote: >> >>> Sam Tobin-Hochstadt wrote at 08/20/2013 09:52 AM: Can you say more about why this is? Is it the pictures? >>> >>> Yes, I scroll down the page and I see pictures and a simple picture >>> language, and it seems to be using them to introduce some pretty >>> simple and familiar concepts, so I assume it's for children. >> >> FWIW, i get the exact same feeling. > > I think this is a sign that we need to revise the tutorial, not that > we need to not link to it. For example, Quick is the only tutorial > that doesn't assume the reader knows Lisp notation. Probably... i mostly agree with Eli's comments on this regard in his answer, and his proposals include (and most of the time improve) all the ideas i've come up with. >> To add to the list of >> purely subjective opinions and wishes, i would also like to see a "pure >> hackers"-looking page i could point prejudiced colleagues to, with >> little emphasis on the educational aspects of Racket. > > Relative to the page I've presented, what would be removed? The Quick > tutorial (but see above) and all or some of the books? The Redex book > is certainly advanced, but I don't know if it has the appeal you're > looking for. Anything else? I like the idea (Eli's again, i think) of giving the books less prominence using popups for the text. At any rate, i'd make community links appear before the book descriptions. The big fonts (and i realize this is such a subjective thing that it sounds a bit silly) also somehow transmit that non-hackish impression i get. Also, i find the "Go further" columns a bit too verbose: a simple list of the most remarkable features, with hyperlinks, would occupy less space and, IMHO, be more informative: if i know what you're talking about there, i don't need the brief surrounding explanations, and, if i don't, i'm not sure those blurbs are gonna help (and i'm worried that to someone not knowing you guys and your amazing work all these years they could sound a bit like a buzzwordy add). Perhaps a better way to explain what i have in mind when i say "pure hackers looking page" is to give you the example of http://ocaml.org and, to a lesser degree, http://haskell.org. All that said, i'm not sure i would trust my own taste as a webpage designer :-) Cheers, jao -- Nothing is so firmly believed as what is least known. -Michel de Montaigne, essayist (1533-1592) _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Revising Racket's home page
Eli wrote: Semi-Quick: take Prabhakar's intro (cs.uwaterloo.ca/~plragde/tyr/) and make it terse enough to fit a single (longish) page. I think that this is a fine choice for an aspiring hacker -- the only part that is missing, the advanced section, is probably the part that should at best be a very quick overview for a bunch of things that you could do, mostly serving as a link hub. If this idea meets with general approval, I'd be happy to collaborate/consult with a co-author on doing this, but I am not a hacker and don't purport to understand what they want, so I'd need a co-author who could curb my professorial tendencies. (And I really should get around to finishing the advanced section.) --PR _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
