Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
totally; just speaking in terms of suckless projects hosted on suckless.org. there basically IS a suckless DE. you just have to assemble it (much like the fact that most suckless tools are meant to be compiled by the user). apologies if this topquotes, I'm on a cell phone. On Nov 9, 2011 4:53 PM, "Sime Ramov" wrote: > > * Seth Hover [2011-11-09 15:37-0800]: > > i don't know about you but running dwm + dmenu is about as close to a > > suckless DE as it gets (st and surf if you need the whole gamut, and I > > use st). > > As is OpenBSD, nvi, herbstluftwm, xxxterm and urxvtd. See the issue now? > Everybody has its own preferred stack, which is why this 'proposal' > doesn't make any sense. >
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
* Seth Hover [2011-11-09 15:37-0800]: > i don't know about you but running dwm + dmenu is about as close to a > suckless DE as it gets (st and surf if you need the whole gamut, and I > use st). As is OpenBSD, nvi, herbstluftwm, xxxterm and urxvtd. See the issue now? Everybody has its own preferred stack, which is why this 'proposal' doesn't make any sense.
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
It's funny because they don't realize they've been trolled.
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: > Greetings comrades, > [marketing-type distractions] > i don't know about you but running dwm + dmenu is about as close to a suckless DE as it gets (st and surf if you need the whole gamut, and I use st).
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Dnia 9 listopada 2011 23:08 "2>&1" napisał(a): > Ugh. Please read Elements of Style by Strunk & White, especially the section > on lovers of big words. > -- > Regards, > 2>&1 The Joke Could Be On You. - brought by, Big Words Incorporated.
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Hey did you hear the one about the giant? Nevermind, its over your head. On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 4:08 PM, 2>&1 wrote: > On Monday, 7 November 2011 2:07:44 pm Kurt H Maier wrote: >> The very use of the phrase "Desktop Environment" betrays your >> low-lying commitment to the capitalist patriarchal conspiracy to >> restrict social mobility of non-institutional entity-computer >> interfaces. Your attempt to sidetrack philosophical advances by >> creating a cult of information around your parochial interpretation of >> parallel-awareness development has been noted. > > > Ugh. Please read Elements of Style by Strunk & White, especially the section > on lovers of big words. > -- > Regards, > 2>&1 > >
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:08 PM, 2>&1 wrote: > > Ugh. Please read Elements of Style by Strunk & White, especially the > section > on lovers of big words. > > hah. way to bite.
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On Monday, 7 November 2011 2:07:44 pm Kurt H Maier wrote: > The very use of the phrase "Desktop Environment" betrays your > low-lying commitment to the capitalist patriarchal conspiracy to > restrict social mobility of non-institutional entity-computer > interfaces. Your attempt to sidetrack philosophical advances by > creating a cult of information around your parochial interpretation of > parallel-awareness development has been noted. Ugh. Please read Elements of Style by Strunk & White, especially the section on lovers of big words. -- Regards, 2>&1
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Somebody signing messages as Petr Sabata wrote: > On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 03:13:35PM -0500, Sean Howard wrote: > > Suckless, as an organization currently has a lot of tools, I personally use > > very few of them. > > dwm - I use this every day, and I twitch when I need to use a computer > > without it. I also twitch when I need to use a computer without *my* > > config.h. > > wmii - We've killed this one > > st - I am an xterm user. I've never tried to compile st. I may use it if I > > feel a need for a change, part of the problem is my ~/bin folder is full of > > scripts I use and love, and I'd have to do a s/xterm/st/g for all of them. > > wmi - nope > > surf - it is quite nice. Not quite what I want, and therefore don't use it. > > I use one of the major players in the "some glue over webkit and X" > > arguement, but only after... three months... of experimentation did I > > arrive there. > > 9base - don't feel the need, OpenBSD provides > > dmenu - one of the coolest tools, honestly, it's so cool, I think this is > > my second-favourite suckless tool. > > stali - I use OpenBSD - so, no. > > Don't forget about slock and sselp. > > -- Petr I intentionally avoided most of the tools section. Simply due to space. I added dmenu and 9base as they seem important as things that a) I have used, and b) things that would be put into a toolchain
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 03:13:35PM -0500, Sean Howard wrote: > Suckless, as an organization currently has a lot of tools, I personally use > very few of them. > dwm - I use this every day, and I twitch when I need to use a computer > without it. I also twitch when I need to use a computer without *my* config.h. > wmii - We've killed this one > st - I am an xterm user. I've never tried to compile st. I may use it if I > feel a need for a change, part of the problem is my ~/bin folder is full of > scripts I use and love, and I'd have to do a s/xterm/st/g for all of them. > wmi - nope > surf - it is quite nice. Not quite what I want, and therefore don't use it. I > use one of the major players in the "some glue over webkit and X" arguement, > but only after... three months... of experimentation did I arrive there. > 9base - don't feel the need, OpenBSD provides > dmenu - one of the coolest tools, honestly, it's so cool, I think this is my > second-favourite suckless tool. > stali - I use OpenBSD - so, no. Don't forget about slock and sselp. -- Petr pgpTiXkTknied.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
why you say that? http://ano.lolcathost.org/finger.mhtml?id=1312461296190.jpg On 11/08/11 12:02, Yoshi Rokuko wrote: +- Kurt H Maier ---+ On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Justin Pogue wrote: man porn All pornography is male-oriented and oppressive. although this is a good point, there are people who try to change this, e.g. PorYes movement (poryes.de).
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
+- Kurt H Maier ---+ > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:12 PM, > Justin Pogue wrote: > > man porn > > All pornography is male-oriented and oppressive. although this is a good point, there are people who try to change this, e.g. PorYes movement (poryes.de).
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
I'm in favor of this man porn. On Nov 7, 2011 5:12 PM, "Justin Pogue" wrote: > Dibs on writing the keyboard vs mouse for porn viewing documentation. > We could sneak it in as an extra man page with DWM. man porn > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: > > > Of course we have huge disparities and holy fights, like how > > to edit text or if it is more worthwhile to use a keyboard > > or the mouse for watching porn. This could be documented and > > shortened to a small »mission statement«. > >
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Justin Pogue wrote: > man porn All pornography is male-oriented and oppressive. -- # Kurt H Maier
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Dibs on writing the keyboard vs mouse for porn viewing documentation. We could sneak it in as an extra man page with DWM. man porn On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: > Of course we have huge disparities and holy fights, like how > to edit text or if it is more worthwhile to use a keyboard > or the mouse for watching porn. This could be documented and > shortened to a small »mission statement«.
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Suckless should stay as-is, but clarify (as done in this thread) its ideals – as you try to, too. Such rules then can be used to define what »suckless« really is. To "suck less" is about subjectivity. It's a matter of taste. Suckless.org is about software tools available for everybody. Not about ideals, rules or changing the world. That's why in my opinion it doesn't need a fancy logo or a marketing plan but has hg and man page -- Wyrmskull
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
(I apologize for my MUA failing as hard as it does...)
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
While I agree that a collection of suckless tools under one roof wouldbe pretty awesome (especially something like sta.li or witch linux), I'mnot sure that marketing as a desktop environment is the right thing to do. I'm part of a small project called tudor[0] that aims to replicate a DE experience without all of the overhead (honestly, it works a lot likelxde without tools aimed at use solely with lxde). However, we're finding that the idea of a 'desktop environment' is tainted - people see it as a monolithic entity that precludes use of any software not shippedwith the desktop environment itself (or 'compatible' software - an ideaI find simply absurd). Point being: if we're going to ship somethingpackaged together, we need to find a different way to say 'desktopenvironment'. The term carries a lot of weight. [0]: https://bitbucket.org/darvid/tudor/wiki/Home
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On 11/07/11 at 09:34pm, Christoph Lohmann wrote: > But yes, the users we want in suckless should be sophisticated > enough to find this out on their own. We are taking the subset of > users from the Ubuntu[0]-educated crowd and filter them for the > real suckless users, that could spread our ideas. If someone fails > to adapt, then they can still fall back to Ubuntu and use just > some of the suckless tools. > > Are there enough hints spread everywhere, so the right users will > get our true words of wisdom? I think there are. I am one of the unsophisticated users of suckless software, and I found you guys all right. otoh, if you are proposing to tighten the relation between suckless tools -- that's what the DE phrase seems to suggest --, I fear that may result in more bloated programs. Manolo
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On 7 November 2011 21:34, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: > It is not about adding something real. Suckless should stay as-is, > but clarify (as done in this thread) its ideals – as you try to, too. > Such rules then can be used to define what »suckless« really is. > But the question is, if »suckless« is the environment or a new > »suckless desktop environment« term is needed to subsume only the > desktop part of suckless? Hmm, what's wrong with simply seeing suckless as a philosophy or best practice in software design? > Are there enough hints spread everywhere, so the right users will > get our true words of wisdom? It's all about a good portion of suckless Masonry that others figure out ;) > To get back to the what stanio said: Are we[1] dying out, are we > growing or do we simply not care? We don't care imho. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Greetings. I am just answering Anselm, but try to answer the open questions of the other postings too. Anselm R Garbe wrote: > Another remark: > > On 7 November 2011 20:21, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: >> reading [0] got me into thinking, if we need some plain new >> terminology to make suckless more usable for the press. Suck- >> less by now is just a repository of tools or a philosophy. >> This does not sell. Instead a whole environment could be pro- >> moted, which is usable across platforms. > > We shouldn't become the next Apple or similar sophists. > We shouldn't focus on selling stuff, we should rather focus on > usability like in the past. It is not about adding something real. Suckless should stay as-is, but clarify (as done in this thread) its ideals – as you try to, too. Such rules then can be used to define what »suckless« really is. But the question is, if »suckless« is the environment or a new »suckless desktop environment« term is needed to subsume only the desktop part of suckless? But yes, the users we want in suckless should be sophisticated enough to find this out on their own. We are taking the subset of users from the Ubuntu[0]-educated crowd and filter them for the real suckless users, that could spread our ideas. If someone fails to adapt, then they can still fall back to Ubuntu and use just some of the suckless tools. Are there enough hints spread everywhere, so the right users will get our true words of wisdom? To get back to the what stanio said: Are we[1] dying out, are we growing or do we simply not care? Sincerely, Christoph Lohmann [0] Ubuntu seen as representative for entry-distributions to the Unix world. [1] »suckless people« or in a wider sense the people that care for a more fanatical adaption of the Unix philosophy
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On 7 November 2011 15:13, Sean Howard wrote: > > The idea would be to first have an identity, the »Suckless > > Desktop«, which needs a logo, some texts and then links to > > the various parts of suckless. This would be the entrypoint > > for new users, where they can decide, what to adopt to or > > just take everything. > > > > Logo is a marketing thing. Are we about marketing? > > How marketable could a logo for "suck less" be? ;)
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Another remark: On 7 November 2011 20:21, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: > reading [0] got me into thinking, if we need some plain new > terminology to make suckless more usable for the press. Suck- > less by now is just a repository of tools or a philosophy. > This does not sell. Instead a whole environment could be pro- > moted, which is usable across platforms. We shouldn't become the next Apple or similar sophists. We shouldn't focus on selling stuff, we should rather focus on usability like in the past. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
* Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> [2011-11-07 20:23]: > terminology to make suckless more usable for the press. [...] Instead > a whole environment could be promoted, which is usable across > platforms. Why? Promote to whom? What is your final goal: to educate the masses in order to get better web, better software, better user habits, sth. else? Do you believe it is worth trying? > This will lower the user selection we are used to, but it gives us an > identity, that can be referred to and used for spreading propaganda / > the idea. This suggests, there exists some user selection by making things obscure, hard to find, by hiding something. I rather see the conceptual clarity and cleanness of the suckless concepts to attract people. cheers. -- stanio_
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Somebody claiming to be Christoph Lohmann wrote: > Greetings comrades, > > reading [0] got me into thinking, if we need some plain new > terminology to make suckless more usable for the press. Suck- > less by now is just a repository of tools or a philosophy. > This does not sell. Instead a whole environment could be pro- > moted, which is usable across platforms. > What environment? What platforms? > This »platform« will take many ideas just from Unix, but > I think that Unix is underrepresented in Linux environments > these days. It has to be relearned. > > The idea would be to first have an identity, the »Suckless > Desktop«, which needs a logo, some texts and then links to > the various parts of suckless. This would be the entrypoint > for new users, where they can decide, what to adopt to or > just take everything. > Logo is a marketing thing. Are we about marketing? > Of course we have huge disparities and holy fights, like how > to edit text or if it is more worthwhile to use a keyboard > or the mouse for watching porn. This could be documented and > shortened to a small »mission statement«. > > This will lower the user selection we are used to, but it > gives us an identity, that can be referred to and used for > spreading propaganda / the idea. > > And ideas (productive work) on this? > Well - I am not a Computer Scientist, some people will tell you I am a computer scientist and lying, but I am not. I am foremost an Arts Major, and on some level a marketer. Firstly, what is it that you're selling? Even if you're not selling it in the traditional sense. I am writing this email in nvi (not vim) which was called by mutt as a nice way of showing off the contents of the imap dump gmail, when I am done editing it, the contents will be given back to mutt, which will hand it off to my ~/sent file, and msmtp. There's a lot of tools there. And there's several decisions. I use nvi, and I don't really like vim (personal choice, and my dad teaching me via raw vi from he was a hacker back in the day more than anything), I chose mutt, it's a mailer, it was a choice because several friends use it, and it was simply weight of the crowd, I could have been persuaded to use pine, elm, or anything else, but mutt was there. I choice msmtp, again, it was a reccomendation, and at least it isn't sendmail. There are also days when I fire up xxxterm (again, not surf) to look at my email inside a shiney gui email program called gmail. I don't like to do it - but sometimes I want to see images inline, and w3m isn't good at recieving text streams and turning them into email. There are other edge cases where the gui is faster. But what about surf vs xxxterm. They're very similar, but have different design choices. I, personally, decided the featureset in xxxterm was slightly closer to what I wanted, but even then, what I really want it vi crossbred with w3m-image. Perhaps I will hack it together sometime. Perhaps not. Suckless, as an organization currently has a lot of tools, I personally use very few of them. dwm - I use this every day, and I twitch when I need to use a computer without it. I also twitch when I need to use a computer without *my* config.h. wmii - We've killed this one st - I am an xterm user. I've never tried to compile st. I may use it if I feel a need for a change, part of the problem is my ~/bin folder is full of scripts I use and love, and I'd have to do a s/xterm/st/g for all of them. wmi - nope surf - it is quite nice. Not quite what I want, and therefore don't use it. I use one of the major players in the "some glue over webkit and X" arguement, but only after... three months... of experimentation did I arrive there. 9base - don't feel the need, OpenBSD provides dmenu - one of the coolest tools, honestly, it's so cool, I think this is my second-favourite suckless tool. stali - I use OpenBSD - so, no. So - these are a lot of tools. What do we say is our DE if we have one? How do you distinct ourselves? Why can't we simply say "this is a set of tools you want". Perhaps we should market ourselves as a ToolKit and not a DE? > > Sincerely, > > Christoph Lohmann > > [0] > http://www.osnews.com/story/25303/Simplicity_vs_Customizability_in_Desktop_Design > Note - this is, weirdly enough, me agreeing with Christoph, not flaming. Nor is my choices in tools an attack on those tools. I really do like many of these. In fact, doing "research" for this post has made me decide to download and compile st, and see if it works, and if I enjoy it. But it's a question of direction and goals. Perhaps a long overdue one. Although there is a goal of eliteism in this - do we not want to market to those able to grasp our goals, and think they are good? The maintainer/editor of TheDailyWTF for example claims he is purely a Windows hacker, wrote a filesystem for a joke, but never even entered Linux, much less suckless. Is that not the kind of audience we want to engage?
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
On 7 November 2011 20:21, Christoph Lohmann <2...@r-36.net> wrote: > Greetings comrades, > > reading [0] got me into thinking, if we need some plain new > terminology to make suckless more usable for the press. Suck- > less by now is just a repository of tools or a philosophy. > This does not sell. Instead a whole environment could be pro- > moted, which is usable across platforms. > > This »platform« will take many ideas just from Unix, but > I think that Unix is underrepresented in Linux environments > these days. It has to be relearned. > > The idea would be to first have an identity, the »Suckless > Desktop«, which needs a logo, some texts and then links to > the various parts of suckless. This would be the entrypoint > for new users, where they can decide, what to adopt to or > just take everything. > > Of course we have huge disparities and holy fights, like how > to edit text or if it is more worthwhile to use a keyboard > or the mouse for watching porn. This could be documented and > shortened to a small »mission statement«. > > This will lower the user selection we are used to, but it > gives us an identity, that can be referred to and used for > spreading propaganda / the idea. > > And ideas (productive work) on this? First of all I need to finish the task of 'sharpening the suckless philosophy' through removing obsolete/no fitting tools and unnecessary information. Your proposed idea can be evaluated afterwards, however I'm a bit sceptic about your proposal as this would presumably grow this community and let newbies in that aren't our focus. The term "desktop" or "desktop environment" has also a very bitter taste to it... Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
Can I vote this "best of"? On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Kurt H Maier wrote: > The very use of the phrase "Desktop Environment" betrays your > low-lying commitment to the capitalist patriarchal conspiracy to > restrict social mobility of non-institutional entity-computer > interfaces. Your attempt to sidetrack philosophical advances by > creating a cult of information around your parochial interpretation of > parallel-awareness development has been noted. > > -- > # Kurt H Maier > >
Re: [dev] Suckless Desktop Environment
The very use of the phrase "Desktop Environment" betrays your low-lying commitment to the capitalist patriarchal conspiracy to restrict social mobility of non-institutional entity-computer interfaces. Your attempt to sidetrack philosophical advances by creating a cult of information around your parochial interpretation of parallel-awareness development has been noted. -- # Kurt H Maier
