Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
2007/11/14, Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony > > > download > > > I understand that such a bundle is mostly interested for Harmony not > > for Tomcat :) > The good idea could be to package Harmony with major ASF projects, > like Tomcat, Geronimo, Ant, Axis/CXF. > A sort of ASF goodies ready to use. Yes, this is the target! > We could see it in Fedora 8 Release with IcedTea and it's more a > packaging activity than pure developpment. > > So I suggest you to see how Harmony could fit with leading Linux > distributions (Suse, RH/Fedora/Ubuntu) and help them package it in > their distro. May be with jpackage, may be directly with distributions > (you could start to make RPM/DEB packages available for these > distros). Yep, we are working on such packages. > For the Windows land, it's another story. :) SY, Alexey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
> > If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony > > download > I understand that such a bundle is mostly interested for Harmony not > for Tomcat :) The good idea could be to package Harmony with major ASF projects, like Tomcat, Geronimo, Ant, Axis/CXF. A sort of ASF goodies ready to use. We could see it in Fedora 8 Release with IcedTea and it's more a packaging activity than pure developpment. So I suggest you to see how Harmony could fit with leading Linux distributions (Suse, RH/Fedora/Ubuntu) and help them package it in their distro. May be with jpackage, may be directly with distributions (you could start to make RPM/DEB packages available for these distros). For the Windows land, it's another story. Regards - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
2007/11/13, Yoav Shapira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Yo, > > On Nov 13, 2007 5:07 AM, Alexey Petrenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Speaking of Harmony stability... We have rather big list of > > applications which are working with Harmony including Eclipse, > > To be clear: I have no doubt of Harmony's quality and stability. I've > used it, it's great. > > I want to keep our end-user experience as simple and friendly as > possible, and our release management as simple and easy for us as > possible too. That's why I don't want another bundle. > > If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony > download I understand that such a bundle is mostly interested for Harmony not for Tomcat :) > I have no issue linking to that from our download pages. > That's an explicit endorsement. But that's where I (again, just me > personally) would like to draw the line of separation. > > Yoav > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
Yo, On Nov 13, 2007 5:07 AM, Alexey Petrenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Speaking of Harmony stability... We have rather big list of > applications which are working with Harmony including Eclipse, To be clear: I have no doubt of Harmony's quality and stability. I've used it, it's great. I want to keep our end-user experience as simple and friendly as possible, and our release management as simple and easy for us as possible too. That's why I don't want another bundle. If someone else were to build and maintain a Tomcat + Harmony download, I have no issue linking to that from our download pages. That's an explicit endorsement. But that's where I (again, just me personally) would like to draw the line of separation. Yoav - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
> And the last is community thing... Yes! We need support from our Big > ASF Brother! :) +1 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
I understand your skepticism, Preston. To be honest it is very common to be skeptical about Harmony. And I agree that Harmony can not guarantee yet the level of stability of old-mature-well-known-everybody-using-and-so-on JREs and beat them in every aspect of performance. That's true. We got a usual circle here: not mature enough - do not have customers, do not have customers - can not be mature enough. But from other hand Harmony has good and continuous progress and it can provide unique benefits to it's customers even now. Just few things right out of my head: 1. Apache License. We are all the part of ASF and I believe that nobody doubts that ALv2 is a benefit for customers :) 2. Modularity - you can remove modules which are unneeded for your application and reduce the size of bundle. For example javax.swing is huge package and it's almost always not needed for server side applications. Or you can choose your favorite GC. 3. Multiple VMs 4. Open source - usual benefits of open source software. You can debug your application better and so on. 5. Community support - required fixes, improvements and so on. Speaking of Harmony stability... We have rather big list of applications which are working with Harmony including Eclipse, EIOffice, JIRA, jEdit and so on. I do not remember all the applications tested on Harmony but you can find more detailed list on Harmony wiki [1]. Tomcat was one of the first application we've enabled on Harmony and it look pretty well on it. Performance... We are working on it and Harmony shows comparable results on number of benchmarks. Yes, some benchmarks shows significantly lower performance but you can not create production quality JRE in one day :) So that was pragmatical, user caring things. However we also have ASF related things... Since we are all in ASF... I believe you all knows about the issues with getting J2SE TCK for Harmony and Apache has hard talks on this. Wider adoption of Harmony will give ASF additional arguments in this talks. And the result of this talks is important for all Java related open source community. And the last is community thing... Yes! We need support from our Big ASF Brother! :) Actually we do not need too much support. Bundle creation support, link to the bundle from Tomcat site and some free-time testing/bug filing/areas for improvement suggestion would be enough :) Thanks in advance. SY, Alexey 1. http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/Application_Status 2007/11/9, Preston L. Bannister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Nov 8, 2007 12:59 PM, Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > 2007/11/8, Preston L. Bannister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat. > > > > Why not Tomcat ? > > > > If you are looking at Harmony, you are (or should be) expecting something > experimental. > > > > Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a > > customer > > > could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not > > make me > > > happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. > > Tomcat is > > > expected to be mature and reliable. > > > > If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help > > Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect. > > > > Sadly, I have no interest in testing Harmony. Thanks for the offer, but my > plate is already far too full. Nor am I interested in my customers testing > Harmony, for pretty much the same reason. > > Pragmatically, as a web application developer, the Sun JVM is free for my > customers, which eliminates any interest (aside from theoretical) in > non-Sun, maybe-sorta-kinda-mostly working, and non-performant JVMs. Sun is > doing a good job, looks to continue to do so, and seems generally to have a > clue about not screwing customers. Good enough. > > Flip this around - who *does* have a pragmatic interest in testing and > development of an open-source JVM? That should suggest a venue. > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
--- HARBOR: http://coolharbor.100free.com/index.htm Now Tomcat is also a cool pojo application server --- - Original Message - From: "Yoav Shapira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tomcat Developers List" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:15 PM Subject: Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony? Hey, On Nov 8, 2007 9:10 AM, Alexey Petrenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony. I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release [2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such a bundle. What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat? Personally, I want to move the Tomcat downloads in a simpler direction, removing options not adding them. So I'm not in favor of various bundles and combinations. I agree, bundle TC as you will, but TC always needs to be independent. I would like to see TC more modulerized, things like clustering been an optional add on. Again there are bundles, but there is also a tiny downlaod that will run a servlet. All optional technologies should be modulerized... I think. Then in contrast to this... needed embedded technologies should be brought out through a TC specific API. For example things like base64 parsing, JMX for the servlet, XMLParsing like that in the default servlet, should be an option in a users servlet. If its intrinsic technology, dont waste it, bring it out as well. ... I think Yoav - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
> > BTW, Harmony people, may I suggest you be to contact the JPackage team > > (www.jpackage.org). > Thanks for pointing to this project, Henri. No problem and happy to help. I was involved in Jpackage some times ago (member and co-founder) Cheers - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
2007/11/8, Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > 2007/11/8, Preston L. Bannister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat. > > Why not Tomcat ? > > > Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer > > could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not make me > > happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. Tomcat is > > expected to be mature and reliable. > > If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help > Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect. > > BTW, Harmony people, may I suggest you be to contact the JPackage team > (www.jpackage.org). Thanks for pointing to this project, Henri. SY, Alexey > They bundle in RPM format major Java applications for Linux boxes and > having an OSS JRE/JDK like Harmony will be very usefull to them. > > Regards and long life to Harmony and others Java Opened implementations :) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
On Nov 8, 2007 12:59 PM, Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2007/11/8, Preston L. Bannister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat. > > Why not Tomcat ? > If you are looking at Harmony, you are (or should be) expecting something experimental. > Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a > customer > > could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not > make me > > happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. > Tomcat is > > expected to be mature and reliable. > > If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help > Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect. > Sadly, I have no interest in testing Harmony. Thanks for the offer, but my plate is already far too full. Nor am I interested in my customers testing Harmony, for pretty much the same reason. Pragmatically, as a web application developer, the Sun JVM is free for my customers, which eliminates any interest (aside from theoretical) in non-Sun, maybe-sorta-kinda-mostly working, and non-performant JVMs. Sun is doing a good job, looks to continue to do so, and seems generally to have a clue about not screwing customers. Good enough. Flip this around - who *does* have a pragmatic interest in testing and development of an open-source JVM? That should suggest a venue.
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
2007/11/8, Preston L. Bannister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat. Why not Tomcat ? > Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer > could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not make me > happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. Tomcat is > expected to be mature and reliable. If you're confident in Tomcat ,so a 'bundled' Harmoy/Tomcat will help Harmony team fix failures in the Java Runtime you could detect. BTW, Harmony people, may I suggest you be to contact the JPackage team (www.jpackage.org). They bundle in RPM format major Java applications for Linux boxes and having an OSS JRE/JDK like Harmony will be very usefull to them. Regards and long life to Harmony and others Java Opened implementations :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
Yes, any such bundle should be under Harmony, not Tomcat. Speaking as an application developer, the (outside?) chance that a customer could go to download Tomcat, and end up with Harmony - this does not make me happy. At least until I have a *lot* more confidence in Harmony. Tomcat is expected to be mature and reliable.
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
Hi Alexey, I think it is a great idea to bundle harmony with tomcat. Ok, I also agree with Yoav and Costin that bundle building and hosting is harmony team job. How can I help you to made the harmony/tomcat bundle ready? But I am working at a Mac and I am very interested to get a java 6 up and running:-( Regards Peter Am 08.11.2007 um 15:10 schrieb Alexey Petrenko: Hey. I'm working on Apache Harmony [1] which is J2SE implementation. I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony. I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release [2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such a bundle. What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat? Thanks in advance. SY, Alexey [1] http://harmony.apache.org/ [2] http://harmony.apache.org/bundles.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
On Nov 8, 2007 6:15 AM, Yoav Shapira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey, > > On Nov 8, 2007 9:10 AM, Alexey Petrenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of > Harmony. > > I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release > > [2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's > > possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such > > a bundle. > > > > What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat? > > Personally, I want to move the Tomcat downloads in a simpler > direction, removing options not adding them. So I'm not in favor of > various bundles and combinations. > > Yoav On the other side - it may be a good thing to have a 'all apache java software' bundle, or to bundle tomcat with harmony ( but on harmony side ). I agree tomcat should go to less options and bundles. Costin > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
Re: New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
Hey, On Nov 8, 2007 9:10 AM, Alexey Petrenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of > Harmony. > I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release > [2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's > possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such > a bundle. > > What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat? Personally, I want to move the Tomcat downloads in a simpler direction, removing options not adding them. So I'm not in favor of various bundles and combinations. Yoav - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
New Tomcat release? Out of the box bundle with Harmony?
Hey. I'm working on Apache Harmony [1] which is J2SE implementation. I want to suggest you to create Tomcat out of the box bundle on top of Harmony. I've created such a bundle with the previous Harmony milestone release [2]. It works but has areas for improvements... For example it's possible to remove debug info from Harmony which is not needed in such a bundle. What do you think? Is such bundle interesting for Tomcat? Thanks in advance. SY, Alexey [1] http://harmony.apache.org/ [2] http://harmony.apache.org/bundles.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]