Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
Hi, I think two prefs are needed. In addition to the pref discussed in this topic, make all media on any tabs be click-to-play is needed to ensure the Web Accessibility. UAAG2 (User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0) LCWD [1] contains two Level A success criteria related to this topic. - 2.11.1 Time-Based Media Load-Only The user can override the play on load of recognized time-based media content such that the content is not played until explicit user request. - http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_2111 - 2.11.2 Execution Placeholder The user can request a placeholder instead of executable content that would normally be contained within an on-screen area (e.g. Applet, Flash), until explicit user request to execute. - http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_2112 # Please refer Implementing UAAG 2.0 for user scenarios of each success criterion. IMHO, to comply UAAG2 (LCWD), we need only one pref: make all media be click-to-play. However I think lexer prefs are preferred for general cases and I agree that we implement such prefs. To summarize my opinion, make all media be click-to-play should be implemented when we implement the prefs (or features) that control autoplay/play(). Best wishes, Takeshi [1] User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (UAAG) 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-UAAG20-20131107/ Implementing UAAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/ Robert Kaiser: Henri Sivonen schrieb: If autoplay is disabled by default, Web authors will take counter-measures and start playback from JavaScript. However, if autoplay is honored by default but the user can turn in off as a pref, it could be that Web authors won't bother to take counter-measures. It probably should be a visual pref somewhere, but I agree that the default should be to enable autoplay on foreground tabs. On background tabs, I think all media should be click-to-play by default though, if possible - both for not needlessly waste power (which might be just as precious on a laptop than a mobile device, the lines are blurry anyhow) and for not surprising people (or making multiple tbas that one opens in the background all run autostarted media elements at the same time, creating a big jumble on the speakers). KaiRo ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
Henri Sivonen schrieb: If autoplay is disabled by default, Web authors will take counter-measures and start playback from JavaScript. However, if autoplay is honored by default but the user can turn in off as a pref, it could be that Web authors won't bother to take counter-measures. It probably should be a visual pref somewhere, but I agree that the default should be to enable autoplay on foreground tabs. On background tabs, I think all media should be click-to-play by default though, if possible - both for not needlessly waste power (which might be just as precious on a laptop than a mobile device, the lines are blurry anyhow) and for not surprising people (or making multiple tbas that one opens in the background all run autostarted media elements at the same time, creating a big jumble on the speakers). KaiRo ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 09/12/13 08:44 PM, Tetsuharu OHZEKI wrote: For mobile, this delaying approach is well for saving power. I feel this approach make sense. Power? How about not blowing through your data cap allowance or paying and other hefty charges Very few countries have cheap unlimited data over cellular. Hub ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 08/12/13 04:49 AM, Robert O'Callahan wrote: Don't these arguments apply to desktop Firefox used at work, in an Internet cafe, or in a library, as well? I think it's important to have an easy way to mute/unmute the browser, but disabling autoplay is probably not the right way to address these issues. It should be noted that here on desktop I do have `media.autoplay.enabled=false` (I hate videos that autoplay) and this still doesn't stop YouTube. [1] So while I'm all for disabling video and sound autoplay across the board, that config flag isn't enough to get rid of that nuisance. [2] I'm not sure if it is a bug or a feature, but if you tell me it is a bug, then I'll gladly file one. Hub [1] before I get told CTP, I don't have Flash, so this is only for the case the video is playable without Flash. [2] I have already noted the disagreement of opinion here. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
2013/12/11 Hubert Figuière h...@mozilla.com: Power? How about not blowing through your data cap allowance or paying and other hefty charges Very few countries have cheap unlimited data over cellular. Of course, it includes network data traffic. I hope it saves power/data cost :) -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
2013/12/11 Hubert Figuière h...@mozilla.com: It should be noted that here on desktop I do have `media.autoplay.enabled=false` (I hate videos that autoplay) and this still doesn't stop YouTube. [1] I seem that Gecko's implementation of HTMLMediaElement.play() doesn't handle `media.autoplay.enabled`. http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/HTMLMediaElement.cpp#2112 -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 12/11/2013 3:07 PM, Tetsuharu OHZEKI wrote: 2013/12/11 Hubert Figuière h...@mozilla.com: It should be noted that here on desktop I do have `media.autoplay.enabled=false` (I hate videos that autoplay) and this still doesn't stop YouTube. [1] I seem that Gecko's implementation of HTMLMediaElement.play() doesn't handle `media.autoplay.enabled`. http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/HTMLMediaElement.cpp#2112 Because play() and autoplay are different. We could add a pref that caused HTMLMediaElement.play() to only work if called from inside a user generated event handler (i.e. mouse click, key press). That would achieve most of what you want, and is very easy to implement. Chris P. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On Dec 10, 2013 6:30 PM, Chris Pearce cpea...@mozilla.com wrote: We could add a pref that caused HTMLMediaElement.play() to only work if called from inside a user generated event handler (i.e. mouse click, key press). That would achieve most of what you want, and is very easy to implement. This seems like it might break e.g. games. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 12/11/2013 4:18 PM, Alex Jordan wrote: On Dec 10, 2013 6:30 PM, Chris Pearce cpea...@mozilla.com wrote: We could add a pref that caused HTMLMediaElement.play() to only work if called from inside a user generated event handler (i.e. mouse click, key press). That would achieve most of what you want, and is very easy to implement. This seems like it might break e.g. games. This would be preffed *off* by default of course. We could make this only for video elements in documents. But that's still defeatable. You really want something like what roc suggested. This is just easier. Chris P. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 08/12/2013 15:03 , Robert Kaiser wrote: That said, I think we should think about how we can enable more user control of such features. If I open media tabs in the background, I probably don't want them to autoplay at all. I think that's the key part. Is there any common usage scenario in which autoplay on an inactive tab is not a nuisance? Who hasn't reopened Firefox with a bunch of tabs loading and then had to scramble through them to find which ones were making noise? I reckon that making autoplay depend on page visibility would be enough to remove the need for user control here, so as to keep things simple. IMHO the only question is whether that would break content and possibly require a spec change. I suspect not for content; on the spec side it already says that UAs don't have to support it. -- Robin Berjon - http://berjon.com/ - @robinberjon ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 08/12/13 12:28, Tetsuharu OHZEKI wrote: On today's web, there are many interactive web sites which play sounds when open them. I suspect this is somewhat dependent on your culture and environment; it's not a problem on the set of websites I visit :-) Some of them are not controlled by users because they doesn't not provide any control. If a website played music at me with no way to turn it off, I'd probably leave and never come back... Personally, also, it makes it easier for people to hide their porn use from others is not an argument which gets much traction with me. Gerv ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Gervase Markham g...@mozilla.org wrote: On 08/12/13 12:28, Tetsuharu OHZEKI wrote: On today's web, there are many interactive web sites which play sounds when open them. I suspect this is somewhat dependent on your culture and environment; it's not a problem on the set of websites I visit :-) Some of them are not controlled by users because they doesn't not provide any control. If a website played music at me with no way to turn it off, I'd probably leave and never come back... Personally, also, it makes it easier for people to hide their porn use from others is not an argument which gets much traction with me. I don't know about that use case, but mine involves Spotify and Soundcloud, which I have pinned as app tabs. Every now and then I will close the browser before shutting down the laptop, without remembering to pause the music in one of those tabs. Booting the laptop afterwards in a public place never fails to annoy some people. Panos ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 12/8/2013 4:31 AM, Tetsuharu OHZEKI wrote: I welcome your feedback to polish Firefox for mobile and web. Note that autoplay is not the most interesting case, because most of the top video sites don't actually use it; instead they use a scripted .play() call on load. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=944876 may be relevant: in that bug I'm willing to mentor somebody to add a hidden pref for additional control over autoplay behavior. For desktop Firefox, I don't think we'd ever want to disable autoplay *by default* in the foreground tab: many people expect their youtube video to just start if they click the link. I suspect that, as discussed earlier on this thread, it might make a lot of sense to delay starting media in a *background* tab (e.g. opened via middle-click). Then we'd autoplay when the video comes into the foreground. We could even implement a setting where all media pause in a background tab. Before we decide on new defaults, I think we should do some experiments with what we can actually accomplish in bug 944876, hopefully get some prototype extensions out for people to experiment with, and then come back and consider what preferences and defaults it actually makes sense to expose. --BDS ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 12/8/2013, 4:49 AM, Robert O'Callahan wrote: Don't these arguments apply to desktop Firefox used at work, in an Internet cafe, or in a library, as well? Media is a power hog on mobile, so it's worthwhile to handle it differently there. - mhoye ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On 12/10/2013 4:38 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote: On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org wrote: I think it's important to have an easy way to mute/unmute the browser, but disabling autoplay is probably not the right way to address these issues. A pref to disable autoplay might be, though. We have this, set media.autoplay.enabled to false. ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
On Dec 9, 2013, at 19:17, Chris Pearce cpea...@mozilla.com wrote: On 12/10/2013 4:38 AM, Henri Sivonen wrote: On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org wrote: I think it's important to have an easy way to mute/unmute the browser, but disabling autoplay is probably not the right way to address these issues. A pref to disable autoplay might be, though. We have this, set media.autoplay.enabled to false. Note that B2G doesn't have an about:config. -- reuben ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
2013/12/10 Reuben Morais reuben.mor...@gmail.com: Note that B2G doesn't have an about:config. We can resolve with to add an option to gaia UI. -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
2013/12/10 Benjamin Smedberg benja...@smedbergs.us: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=944876 may be relevant: in that bug I'm willing to mentor somebody to add a hidden pref for additional control over autoplay behavior. Sounds good. I feel this approach is more smart like roc said. For desktop Firefox, I don't think we'd ever want to disable autoplay *by default* in the foreground tab: many people expect their youtube video to just start if they click the link. I suspect that, as discussed earlier on this thread, it might make a lot of sense to delay starting media in a *background* tab (e.g. opened via middle-click). Then we'd autoplay when the video comes into the foreground. We could even implement a setting where all media pause in a background tab. I almost agree. For desktop Firefox, we should not (cannot) change the default behavior for autoplay. This is (historical) protocol. Even if we provide other click-to-plays options, we might not change the default. However, for desktop, I don't think it's good that providing as default to delay starting in background tabs. This is same with that many people expect their youtube video to just start if they click the link. Some of them also expect their youtube video start in background tabs as podcast. For mobile, this delaying approach is well for saving power. I feel this approach make sense. -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
Hi, In Last week, I proposed the following mail to mobile-firefox-dev mailing list. I feel this proposal is related to not only Fennec, but also B2G. So I would like to hear your opinions. Best Regards. -- Forwarded message -- Hello, I propose that we should disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile. (I'm sorry if this topics has been discussed for a long time ago in past times.) At the current configuration, Gecko runs on mobile (Firefox for Android, B2G) are enable the autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement with using `media.autoplay.enabled=true`. However, I think this might not be useful for users. Because: * Mobile Devices are more used in public space than Desktop PCs. If browser auto-plays all media which come from web without some user activations, this should be privacy risk. * And, simply, it would shame me if browser auto-plays web page audio in the silent public space. * In related with above things, this behavior might have social attack risk by web pages. If browser auto-plays x-rated (violent, porn or etc) video/audio with loud volumes in the public space, his user's name will be mud. So I propose we should disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile. And I would like to discuss about it. I welcome your feedback to polish Firefox for mobile and web. Best Regards. -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
Don't these arguments apply to desktop Firefox used at work, in an Internet cafe, or in a library, as well? I think it's important to have an easy way to mute/unmute the browser, but disabling autoplay is probably not the right way to address these issues. Rob -- Jtehsauts tshaei dS,o n Wohfy Mdaon yhoaus eanuttehrotraiitny eovni le atrhtohu gthot sf oirng iyvoeu rs ihnesa.rt sS?o Whhei csha iids teoa stiheer :p atroa lsyazye,d 'mYaonu,r sGients uapr,e tfaokreg iyvoeunr, 'm aotr atnod sgaoy ,h o'mGee.t uTph eann dt hwea lmka'n? gBoutt uIp waanndt wyeonut thoo mken.o w ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
2013/12/8 Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org: Don't these arguments apply to desktop Firefox used at work, in an Internet cafe, or in a library, as well? True. This proposal could be applied to desktop Firefox. But I seem it would be hard because of historical reasons. On today's web, there are many interactive web sites which play sounds when open them. Some of them are not controlled by users because they doesn't not provide any control. This is website's problem for accessibility/usability. But I also think that this is a user agent (browser)'s problem originally. However, Sadly, It's too late to change the behavior now for desktop browser. I think it's important to have an easy way to mute/unmute the browser, but disabling autoplay is probably not the right way to address these issues. Yes. I agree that disabling autoplay is not right way. For only mobile, I think that the approach like click-to-play may be good to resolve this issues. This click-to-play focuses only to absorb the problem of autoplaying which includes privacy, honor, and traffic attacks. Although I think this might be resolved before mobile web expand more and more. Now, B2G are very young platform. If we try to resolve these issue, this moment would be chance to resolve it. 2013/12/8 Robert O'Callahan rob...@ocallahan.org: Don't these arguments apply to desktop Firefox used at work, in an Internet cafe, or in a library, as well? I think it's important to have an easy way to mute/unmute the browser, but disabling autoplay is probably not the right way to address these issues. Rob -- Jtehsauts tshaei dS,o n Wohfy Mdaon yhoaus eanuttehrotraiitny eovni le atrhtohu gthot sf oirng iyvoeu rs ihnesa.rt sS?o Whhei csha iids teoa stiheer :p atroa lsyazye,d 'mYaonu,r sGients uapr,e tfaokreg iyvoeunr, 'm aotr atnod sgaoy ,h o'mGee.t uTph eann dt hwea lmka'n? gBoutt uIp waanndt wyeonut thoo mken.o w -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
Tetsuharu OHZEKI schrieb: I propose that we should disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile. I personally have not yet seen any arguments that would really apply for making things different between mobile and desktop in your discussion, and I think we should not make functionality different between form factors or products when there is no good reason to make them different. IMHO, what's named Firefox should work the same everywhere unless there is a really good reason why a different variant should behave differently (and there surely are often good reasons, but I haven't noticed those in this discussion yet - nobody says I won't often use my laptop in public or my mobile devices in private). That said, I think we should think about how we can enable more user control of such features. If I open media tabs in the background, I probably don't want them to autoplay at all. And then, there are situations on all my devices where I may want autoplay and situations where I may not. How could we give the user control over autoplay in an intuitive and easy way? Is there a good way to do that on mobile form factors as well? KaiRo ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
2013/12/8 Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at: I personally have not yet seen any arguments that would really apply for making things different between mobile and desktop in your discussion, and I think we should not make functionality different between form factors or products when there is no good reason to make them different. IMHO, what's named Firefox should work the same everywhere unless there is a really good reason why a different variant should behave differently (and there surely are often good reasons, but I haven't noticed those in this discussion yet - nobody says I won't often use my laptop in public or my mobile devices in private). Ideally, I agree that what's named Firefox should work the same everywhere. Though, There are some difference between desktop and mobile for general usecases. Mobile including tablet would be more used in public space than desktop. I don't say laptops are never used in public space. Of course, some people use their laptop in very crowded train like which runs in Tokyo. Other some people use their mobile devices in only private. But they are limitless. I think that we need to discuss it based on general usecases at first. On that basis, we should discuss how we bypass or resolve some problems. 2013/12/8 Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at: Tetsuharu OHZEKI schrieb: I propose that we should disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile. I personally have not yet seen any arguments that would really apply for making things different between mobile and desktop in your discussion, and I think we should not make functionality different between form factors or products when there is no good reason to make them different. IMHO, what's named Firefox should work the same everywhere unless there is a really good reason why a different variant should behave differently (and there surely are often good reasons, but I haven't noticed those in this discussion yet - nobody says I won't often use my laptop in public or my mobile devices in private). That said, I think we should think about how we can enable more user control of such features. If I open media tabs in the background, I probably don't want them to autoplay at all. And then, there are situations on all my devices where I may want autoplay and situations where I may not. How could we give the user control over autoplay in an intuitive and easy way? Is there a good way to do that on mobile form factors as well? KaiRo ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform -- Tetsuharu OHZEKI saneyuki.s.s...@gmail.com ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Re: Should we disable autoplay feature of HTMLMediaElement on mobile?
Maybe we can build something clever based on the per-window volume and muting infrastructure in bug 923247? I think easy per-tab muting is a good thing to try here. Rob -- Jtehsauts tshaei dS,o n Wohfy Mdaon yhoaus eanuttehrotraiitny eovni le atrhtohu gthot sf oirng iyvoeu rs ihnesa.rt sS?o Whhei csha iids teoa stiheer :p atroa lsyazye,d 'mYaonu,r sGients uapr,e tfaokreg iyvoeunr, 'm aotr atnod sgaoy ,h o'mGee.t uTph eann dt hwea lmka'n? gBoutt uIp waanndt wyeonut thoo mken.o w ___ dev-platform mailing list dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
