[SailfishDevel] Problem of Thomas Perl
*Threats from Thomas* So first of all look at Thomas tweets: https://twitter.com/thp4/status/323817400233517056 https://twitter.com/thp4/status/323907491660431360 I don't know if it was about me, because there isn't an exact person mentioned (maybe it was about someone else) and I haven't been sending threats to Thomas (if it was the case I think Thomas should have reported that and _still_ can to the Austrian or Polish police). I won't comment threat (to whoever it was) of publishing someones all _private_ emails and how it aligns with ethics. You can all read about that in countless articles on the Internet and everyone can make their own opinion. Few months earlier I've received threat from Thomas about discrediting me before Austrian Python community (in which, on the sidenote he later succedded). As in Poland there is 2 years data retention for telecommunication operators, police can examine that and I still have that evidence on my phone. *The most probable reason why Thomas made me the whole hell* Read carefully all the tweets from this thread: https://twitter.com/thp4/status/259973497802063872 Do you remember when the apkenv was made avaliable for download for the first time on Thomas Perl's website (thp.io)? Yes it wasn't open source yet at that time, so Thomas provided a binary on his website, but at that time there wasn't any notice/licenses of the parts he used (some people might remember that, I do). Because Thomas was basing his solution on bionic C library from Android Open Source Project he was *obliged* to provide the appropriate notice. I've spotted that license violation and contacted Thomas privately (I didn't want to do a big buzz about that, just to help him fix this simple issue). Guess what was Thomas reaction to that and what he wrote me on IM? The only thing I can say about that is I believe that Thomas was in fury, because someone dared to show him his mistake. Moreover I've discussed the issue at that time with one more person, who can probably be a witness if the whole thing will end at a courthouse, which I would say is now very probable scenario. I would recommend to everyone reading the lines 10-13 if anyone has doubts: http://code.metager.de/source/xref/android/4.0.3/bionic/linker/linker.c Thomas will you deny this facts about apkenv and our conversation? I still have it on my computer. *Relationship with Thomas Perl* There was a nice story in Carsten's post, but does it have much in common with the truth and the facts? Before Thomas started his weird behavior towards me we were normal colleagues (I don't know how else I can call that relationship, feel free to correct me Thomas) from international Python community. It lasted something like ~2 years or a bit less (before the nightmare in 2013/2014). That included Thomas visits in Poland and my single visit (with my old friend Peter) in Vienna in May 2012. During the whole time I've also received various gifts and experienced other friendly gestures from Thomas and I was trying to do the same in exchange. Thomas even helped me a bit with the first SmartDevCon, also mentored one BSc thesis of one of my students. Of course we also had some misunderstandings from time to time, like it happens in every healthy relationship. Just to show you all a few examples of (let's call it) good times: Kielce/Mąchocice, Kraków, Katowice: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157627648313327/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157627648730161/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157627772737038/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157631471068182/ Berlin, Katowice: https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/7469632078/in/set-72157630347853254 https://www.flickr.com/photos/thp4/sets/72157631471068182/ Thomas, feel free to delete this (probably now embarassing) photos from 2011 and 2012 or better leave them as evidence if you have courage. Sorry, that I had to write it all here, but it seems you have completely lost your common sense (similar like your company, not believing that you might be the source of the problem). I hope there is someone close with you right now or your family knows what is happening, because I'm seriously scared that you might even self-harm yourself in the worst scenario. Remember, there is always some way out and I believe there are plenty of people in Austria and outside it, who know you from your bright side, that would be willing to help you. Anyway I feel that professional help from psychologist/psychotherapist would be the best solution, but for it to make sense, you need to first acknowledge your problem, be sure and feel that you want that, otherwise it probably won't work (forced psychotheraphy usually doesn't work). Regards, Filip PS. Yes I have tried many times to solve the whole thing with Thomas amicably, but it was hard to do it, especially that Thomas never really told me *what exactly has happened* that he started
[SailfishDevel] Farewell to Jolla community!
It was very nice experience to meet many of the people in this community, despite the whole harm that has happened to me from Thomas, Carsten and Jolla the company. I think there is nothing left and I need to leave, as I gave so many chances for Jolla to fix this serious issue and they completely blew it. The last days just confirmed my worst fears that Jolla is a moral bankrupt and is unable to deal properly with problems. I guess everyone that hasn't lost his common sense has noticed that. Now despite I'm leaving the community, I will do all the steps to spread the information about what happened here and how I was harmed. I see it as a justice, the justice I deserve to defend my good name (I'm active for around 10 years in various communities. I am a memeber of Polish Linux Users Group, OpenStreetMap Poland, Hackerspace Silesia and last but not least, recently founded Polish Python User Group, so my involvement in those relies on the trust that people in all those communites has given me choosing on important functions at those associations. Also, leaving the community doesn't mean I'm leaving my friends from it, but I'm happy that I've figured out who my real friends are and what people only pretended to be my friends. To Jolla: My offer of mediation lost its sense. I'm no longer interested in having to deal with your company at any level. To Jolla Investors: I hope you are reading all of this and will know what to do if you care about the rest of your money that haven't been pumped yet to this corpo-startup. To Jolla Partners - Tieto, F-Secure, Nokia/Here and others: I also hope someone will point you to this material and you will think twice with who you are partnering. It might also affect your companies image, especially F-Secure whose business, I would say, highly depends on that. To mass media: Feel free to contact me if you would like to make an article or interview about the whole problem. Reading the Sailfish-devel mailing list mail by mail will help you to understand a lot. If the mailing list, which is now a good evidence, will be deleted as someone suggested, then there is still a lot of evidence at individuals mailboxes. To community members: I don't know what will be soon left from Sailfish and Jolla (Mer and Nemo will probably prevail, including Glacier UI as they are open source, I hope qwazix and locusf, which are a great guys will still work on that despite everything!), but I guess there are some other interesting projects like Neo900, Ubuntu Touch or Tizen. To Finns: I know it's disappointing as Jolla is a Finnish company and you probably had highest hopes from all of us. Unfortunately that's how life goes, let's move forward, you still have Nokia and there are many other interesting and promising startups in Finland. To Jolla employees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPlBBLc6vno Remember the motto of my blog? Regards, Filip PS. Probably I'm going offline for a few days, need to relax and spend the rest of the weekend with my good friends and my family. PS2. I won't post anything more here, but I will make a thread on TMO as some people suggested. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Farewell to Jolla community!
OK, NOW YOU GET THIS PERSONAL BY MENTIONING FINNS. GET A SNICKERS FILIP REALLY ! AS A FINN, I WILL SAY THAT TODAY I HAVE MORE HOPE AND TRUST ON JOLLA THAN EVER. WE ARE ALWAYS REALLY PROUD OF WHAT WE DO, EVEN WHEN DOING SHIT - LITERALLY. AS A COMMUNITY MEMBER, I WILL SAY ONLY THIS - THANK YOU FOR YOUR DECISION, MAYBE THIS WILL NOW GET EVEN BETTER. I DON'T KNOW YOU PERSONALLY, AND AFTER THIS I DON'T MIND KNOWING YOU IN THE FUTURE. I HAD SOME GOOD HOPES IN THE BEGINNING SEEING FK_LX SHOWING JOLLA SOME PRESSURE TO OPENSOURCE THEIR CODE. BUT REALLY SOON I GOT IMPRESSION THAT YOU ARE JUST ATTACKING TO EVERYONE WHO IS NOT IMMEDIATELY SHOWING THEIR CREATIONS SOURCE TO PUBLIC. IT CAN BE SEEN IN THOSE TWEETS YOU LINKED. HAVE A NICE WEEKEND https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM REGARDS, KIMMO *END* To community members: I don't know what will be soon left from Sailfish and Jolla (Mer and Nemo will probably prevail, including Glacier UI as they are open source, I hope qwazix and locusf, which are a great guys will still work on that despite everything!), but I guess there are some other interesting projects like Neo900, Ubuntu Touch or Tizen. To Finns: I know it's disappointing as Jolla is a Finnish company and you probably had highest hopes from all of us. Unfortunately that's how life goes, let's move forward, you still have Nokia and there are many other interesting and promising startups in Finland. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
Hi Iekku Zitat von Iekku Pylkka iekku.pyl...@jolla.com: Ahoy, We have been pondering the idea about forum. Truth to be told, we are too small company to follow and contribute to that as well. We are following/contributing to several IRC channels, together.Jolla.com, this mailing list and I'm bombing our technical developers with developer-c...@jolla.com questions I can't answer and can't find easily (below 30 minutes). And we have huge amount of work to do :) Yes, we could have trusted community members as a moderators in forum, but we would love to contribute and _read_ those posts coming to forum. Br, Iekku Pylkkä From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Martin Kolman [martin.kol...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 10:39 PM To: devel@lists.sailfishos.org Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide 23.5.2014 21:21, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch: Hi Jarko before we jump to splitting into multiple SF mailing lists, I wonder has any thought been given to replacing the lists with a developer' forum? I fear that multiple lists would not really help - I would end up subscribed to all of them (both those that I am very interested in, and those that I am sometimes interested in), and thus my In-box would be just as full as it is now. A forum would be divided into sub-forums, and being thread oriented (as opposed to post-oriented) I could freely choose which sub-forums and which threads I chose to dive into, and which to ignore. Well, roughly the same thing can (and usually is by people subscribing to mailing list) achieved by setting up mail filters and redirecting email to per-mailing-list folders. I can't even think about all those email directly ending in my main inbox... Regarding a forum - well, talk.maemo.org is currently basically filling the role of the main Sailfish forum and this seems to work just fine, so I don't really see the need for yet another forum instance (anybody still remembers forum.meego.com ?). Chris Zitat von Jarko Vihriala jarko.vihri...@jolla.com: We're looking into splitting the discussions on SF mailing lists. But, let's not make hasty moves and keep the technological part alive. thanks, Jarko From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Ville M. Vainio [vivai...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 9:45 PM To: Sailfish OS Developers Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide Some of the discussions here have been borderline illegal; discouraging such behavior even with absence of 'technical' moderator tools (like you have even on barbaric environments like phpbb) is not necessarily a bad idea. On May 22, 2014 5:53 PM, christopher.l...@thurweb.chmailto:christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Seconded. I could not have put it better myself. Since the early days I have enjoyed the very open nature of this forum where pretty much anything goes that is vaguely Jolla / Qt / Open Source / technical. From my recollection the number of threads that struck me as definitely better elsewhere has been refreshingly small. Many of the threads have been helpful or and or insightful. Keep up the good work Chris Zitat von David Greaves david.grea...@jolla.commailto:david.grea...@jolla.com: There's been enough noise on this mailing list recently that some people have felt they don't want to participate. We need to be careful about over-policing discussions but there is such a thing as under-policing too. How would we (community, not Jolla) determine the line? and what measures do we think should be taken? Lorn pointed to this as a useful document: http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ FWIW I personally don't think there's anything happened recently that I would actually take action over. My delete key works fine and history shows that sometimes cries for help come in strange forms. David/lbt PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.orgmailto:devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.orgmailto:devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
Ignore my last - I absentmindedly clicked Send before writing the content! My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. Martin points out that I could simulate the same with rules and filters: but that is post-fact, so if somebody starts spamming the list from different threads and sock-puppets, then I need to continually add new rules / filters. I prefer to spend my free time programming Sailfish apps, not rules in my mail client! While there is talk.maemo.org, that serves a different role: it is an independent forum (as opposed to one owned by Jolla); and the Sailfish part has not divided into more focused sub-forums yet. Chris Zitat von christopher.l...@thurweb.ch: Hi Iekku Zitat von Iekku Pylkka iekku.pyl...@jolla.com: Ahoy, We have been pondering the idea about forum. Truth to be told, we are too small company to follow and contribute to that as well. We are following/contributing to several IRC channels, together.Jolla.com, this mailing list and I'm bombing our technical developers with developer-c...@jolla.com questions I can't answer and can't find easily (below 30 minutes). And we have huge amount of work to do :) Yes, we could have trusted community members as a moderators in forum, but we would love to contribute and _read_ those posts coming to forum. Br, Iekku Pylkkä From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Martin Kolman [martin.kol...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 10:39 PM To: devel@lists.sailfishos.org Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide 23.5.2014 21:21, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch: Hi Jarko before we jump to splitting into multiple SF mailing lists, I wonder has any thought been given to replacing the lists with a developer' forum? I fear that multiple lists would not really help - I would end up subscribed to all of them (both those that I am very interested in, and those that I am sometimes interested in), and thus my In-box would be just as full as it is now. A forum would be divided into sub-forums, and being thread oriented (as opposed to post-oriented) I could freely choose which sub-forums and which threads I chose to dive into, and which to ignore. Well, roughly the same thing can (and usually is by people subscribing to mailing list) achieved by setting up mail filters and redirecting email to per-mailing-list folders. I can't even think about all those email directly ending in my main inbox... Regarding a forum - well, talk.maemo.org is currently basically filling the role of the main Sailfish forum and this seems to work just fine, so I don't really see the need for yet another forum instance (anybody still remembers forum.meego.com ?). Chris Zitat von Jarko Vihriala jarko.vihri...@jolla.com: We're looking into splitting the discussions on SF mailing lists. But, let's not make hasty moves and keep the technological part alive. thanks, Jarko From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Ville M. Vainio [vivai...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 9:45 PM To: Sailfish OS Developers Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide Some of the discussions here have been borderline illegal; discouraging such behavior even with absence of 'technical' moderator tools (like you have even on barbaric environments like phpbb) is not necessarily a bad idea. On May 22, 2014 5:53 PM, christopher.l...@thurweb.chmailto:christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Seconded. I could not have put it better myself. Since the early days I have enjoyed the very open nature of this forum where pretty much anything goes that is vaguely Jolla / Qt / Open Source / technical. From my recollection the number of threads that struck me as definitely better elsewhere has been refreshingly small. Many of the threads have been helpful or and or insightful. Keep up the good work Chris Zitat von David Greaves david.grea...@jolla.commailto:david.grea...@jolla.com: There's been enough noise on this mailing list recently that some people have felt they don't want to participate. We need to be careful about over-policing discussions but there is such a thing as under-policing too. How would we (community, not Jolla) determine the line? and what measures do we think should be taken? Lorn pointed to this as a useful document: http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ FWIW I personally don't think there's anything happened recently that I would actually take action over. My delete key works fine and history shows that sometimes cries for help come in strange forms. David/lbt PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it.
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 12:56:01 christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Ignore my last - I absentmindedly clicked Send before writing the content! My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. Martin points out that I could simulate the same with rules and filters: but that is post-fact, so if somebody starts spamming the list from different threads and sock-puppets, then I need to continually add new rules / filters. I prefer to spend my free time programming Sailfish apps, not rules in my mail client! While there is talk.maemo.org, that serves a different role: it is an independent forum (as opposed to one owned by Jolla); and the Sailfish part has not divided into more focused sub-forums yet. Chris Agree with all especially about TMO... -- I am a computer Open Source geek: Professional experience and intrests in Qt/QML, C++, C, Python, GIT, Linux on embedded. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
On Thursday 22 May 2014 15:18 David Greaves wrote: There's been enough noise on this mailing list recently that some people have felt they don't want to participate. We need to be careful about over-policing discussions but there is such a thing as under-policing too. How would we (community, not Jolla) determine the line? and what measures do we think should be taken? Lorn pointed to this as a useful document: http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ FWIW I personally don't think there's anything happened recently that I would actually take action over. My delete key works fine and history shows that sometimes cries for help come in strange forms. David/lbt PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. I think grievances about the community or Jolla should be allowed to a certain degree. Non-relevant personal attacks and/or trolling should not be allowed though. These things won't happen often - if they do there is something wrong that should solved instead. Communication is vital for a community to survive. Personally I've just left another community, that has been very important for me for 2½ years, for the lack of same. KDEs CoC is an excellent skeleton to use btw. -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
Unsubscribe Thomas Tanghus tho...@tanghus.net schrieb am 15:25 Samstag, 24.Mai 2014: On Thursday 22 May 2014 15:18 David Greaves wrote: There's been enough noise on this mailing list recently that some people have felt they don't want to participate. We need to be careful about over-policing discussions but there is such a thing as under-policing too. How would we (community, not Jolla) determine the line? and what measures do we think should be taken? Lorn pointed to this as a useful document: http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ FWIW I personally don't think there's anything happened recently that I would actually take action over. My delete key works fine and history shows that sometimes cries for help come in strange forms. David/lbt PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. I think grievances about the community or Jolla should be allowed to a certain degree. Non-relevant personal attacks and/or trolling should not be allowed though. These things won't happen often - if they do there is something wrong that should solved instead. Communication is vital for a community to survive. Personally I've just left another community, that has been very important for me for 2½ years, for the lack of same. KDEs CoC is an excellent skeleton to use btw. -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
[SailfishDevel] Sailfish developer planet - blog aggregator
Hi, this one has been around for a bit, but hasn't been discussed here so far. I'd like to push it forward now. At Devaamo we've been involved in Sailfish from the start and have organized some local events that garnered a lot of interest. We also run some infrastructure, like the community image hosting service, that is e.g hosting Nemo and Sailfish N9/N950 images. It has been around from the MeeGo times, when it was impossible to get help for hosting community hardware adaptations. So without further ado, Sailfish planet is now open: http://planet.devaamo.fi/sailfish/ I'm soliciting input which blogs to add. So far there are only three/four that have sailfish specific topics. I'm looking strictly for developer and platform development topics. If there is also interest in general topics we could consider a jolla planet for that? To have a blog added, preferably email me directly and include BOTH the blog URL, and a URL to the feed, if the blog covers multiple topics, preferably a feed that filters posts and only returns those tagged e.g. sailfish. (Most blogs offer that) If you happen to know blogs about Mer and or Nemo, you can send me those too. Their planets are here: http://planet.devaamo.fi/mer http://planet.devaamo.fi/nemo Cheers Thomas ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
On Saturday 24 May 2014 15:25 Thomas Tanghus wrote: PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. I forgot to mention that I much prefer a mailing list instead of a forum. -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
24.5.2014 13:56, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch kirjoitti: My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. -1 Is there any forum platform whose usability is not totally terrible compared to mailing lists? First of all, to be able to keep track of who has replied to whose post, and which post, I want to see the posts as a tree. But offering such a tree view seems to be very rare on forums. LN ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
Hi Lauri That is an interesting perspective: my feeling / experience was exactly the opposite: the chief weakness of mailing lists is that they have no usability whatsoever: I get just a flat list of unorganised mails swamping my inbox. That of course may be down to the weaknesses of the web-mail client I use. I would welcome advice on best-practice tools for consuming mailing lists. I am (mostly) on OSX, sometimes on Windows and Linux. To quote Churchill give us the tools and we will do the job. From my point-of-view, plus points for usability of forums over mailing lists are (in no special order): * Stickies * Sub forums * Search * Private Messages * Edit previous posts (I could have used that today when I inadvertently clicked send too early) * Thread based perspective * Does not fill my mail file * Visible metadata such as number of replies, date of most recent reply, number of posts etc. Downsides of forums are: * yet another user/password to manage (although a forum could be integrated into together.jolla.com * yet another site to visit regularly (in addition to my mail client) * karma: so distracting, I prefer the simple egalitarianism / meritocracy of mailing lists Grüsse Chris Zitat von Lauri Nurmi lanu...@iki.fi: 24.5.2014 13:56, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch kirjoitti: My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. -1 Is there any forum platform whose usability is not totally terrible compared to mailing lists? First of all, to be able to keep track of who has replied to whose post, and which post, I want to see the posts as a tree. But offering such a tree view seems to be very rare on forums. LN ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
Hi, On 05/24/2014 04:34 PM, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Hi Lauri That is an interesting perspective: my feeling / experience was exactly the opposite: the chief weakness of mailing lists is that they have no usability whatsoever: I get just a flat list of unorganised mails swamping my inbox. That sounds like you don't have a good grip on your mailbox. But let me pick apart your arguments below, one by one, just because I'm in the mood. That of course may be down to the weaknesses of the web-mail client I use. Indeed. But even there web clients usually, at the very least allow sorting into folders and bypassing the inbox. I would welcome advice on best-practice tools for consuming mailing lists. I am (mostly) on OSX, sometimes on Windows and Linux. To quote Churchill give us the tools and we will do the job. I'm not going to recommend one particular MUA (Mail User Agent), that would be like screaming Yehova at the top of my lungs. There are clients aplenty, graphical, console, complicated, easy. Spend an hour or two reading about mail clients and mailing lists. You'll NEVER want to go back to forums. In addition there are good web interfaces for reading up on mailing lists. I use that if I'm not close to my personal MUA or not subscribed to a list. See GMANE et al. From my point-of-view, plus points for usability of forums over mailing lists are (in no special order): * Stickies That's a web-interface thing. The analogue would be a wiki page introducing you to the mailing list, pointing out ground rules and a link to a FAQ. * Sub forums Mailing lists on mailman can have topics, but I rarely see this used outside lkml(?). We are currently pondering a split to several mailing lists, that's the other possibility. * Search Most of the time I'm much faster searching either my mailing list directory or the web archive of said list through the search engine of my least distrust. (hint: add site:lists.sailfishos.org to your search) * Private Messages I'm not sure if you are serious. Did you hear about this thing called … email? * Edit previous posts (I could have used that today when I inadvertently clicked send too early) Yes, that's an inherent limitation. Actually the only one in this mail that I can't and won't pick apart. * Thread based perspective Beat this: http://ruecker.fi/foss/sailfish/Thunderbird_screenshot_2014-05-24T17:11:47.png That's my Thunderbird. Other MUAs have different options. Everyone can chose the way that fits their way of reading a list. Where as with a forum you get ONE way or the highway. * Does not fill my mail file If you are not using subdirectories, yes. Start using sub directories. Or get an email account for mailing list usage. I see many people do that. * Visible metadata such as number of replies, date of most recent reply, number of posts etc. Again threaded view gives you a good idea what's going on in a thread. Downsides of forums are: * yet another user/password to manage (although a forum could be integrated into together.jolla.com * yet another site to visit regularly (in addition to my mail client) If you want a forum, TJC is already very close to it, including all the downsides of horrible noise and impossible to find things. Even Jolla loses track of important items there. * karma: so distracting, I prefer the simple egalitarianism / meritocracy of mailing lists Could be folded into a mailing list feature too, just to annoy you. Just kidding. But knowing the Intarwebz™, someone has done that already… Zitat von Lauri Nurmi lanu...@iki.fi: 24.5.2014 13:56, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch kirjoitti: My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. -1 Is there any forum platform whose usability is not totally terrible compared to mailing lists? First of all, to be able to keep track of who has replied to whose post, and which post, I want to see the posts as a tree. But offering such a tree view seems to be very rare on forums. Still want to have a forum? ;-) Cheers Thomas ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
[SailfishDevel] DatePickerDialog and locale
(No actual question here but my observations) Just noticed that depending how i start my application on the phone, DatePickerDialog returns different values. If started from ssh session, dateText returns 24 May 2014 If started from launcher icon (as normally user would do) or from fingerterm, dateText returns 24.5.2014 (later caused my app to fail) Also the complete datepicker is in English when started from ssh. Setting LANG=fi_FI.utf8 env from putty gets app started in 'my' language. Maybe i'll use this to test application in different languages. -kimmo ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
On Saturday 24 May 2014 17:32 Thomas B. Rücker wrote: That sounds like you don't have a good grip on your mailbox. But let me pick apart your arguments below, one by one, just because I'm in the mood. OK, one down-side to mailing lists: there are no Like, Thanks, +1 or the likes of it buttons - I would really have used that now :D -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
On 24/05/2014 16:25, Thomas Tanghus wrote: On Thursday 22 May 2014 15:18 David Greaves wrote: There's been enough noise on this mailing list recently that some people have felt they don't want to participate. We need to be careful about over-policing discussions but there is such a thing as under-policing too. How would we (community, not Jolla) determine the line? and what measures do we think should be taken? Lorn pointed to this as a useful document: http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ FWIW I personally don't think there's anything happened recently that I would actually take action over. My delete key works fine and history shows that sometimes cries for help come in strange forms. David/lbt PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. I think grievances about the community or Jolla should be allowed to a certain degree. Non-relevant personal attacks and/or trolling should not be allowed though. Hi, I believe that when there is something wrong (anywhere in the world) it's good to point that out and discuss it as much as possible. Only by analyzing what went wrong and how it could have gone better we (as human beings, community, companies) can improve. Discussing means (to me) trying to understand the facts, the emotions, and the assumptions on how it should have been and then find a way forward. Discussion implies an exchange of information (so it's not a I talk when you are done talking but a I listen while you talk and then I will talk back on the same topic (but stay with me please)). Personal attacks or trolling are of course not constructive discussion and usually just because personal attacks and trolling are not a discussion at all (you need at least 2 to tango). These things won't happen often - if they do there is something wrong that should solved instead. Communication is vital for a community to survive. And when they happen they are halting the whole community for a long amount of time and focusing the eyes of the community on that. I refrain from proposing (even without a Jolla hat) how I would generally handle trolling. I let you guys figure it out, it's a pretty well known problem with well known solutions tested for centuries. As per the tools I think the tools are not so relevant as long as the community finds its way to discuss. Personally I don't love forums but that is only my preference, as I don't like pizza with pineapple. Cheers -- Stefano Mosconi without a Jolla hat ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
Hi, As per the tools I think the tools are not so relevant as long as the community finds its way to discuss. Personally I don't love forums but that is only my preference, as I don't like pizza with pineapple. I think it's becoming too personal here. As a fervent defender of pizzas with pineapple, this is an attack against my most innermost beliefs. Apart from that, I think that news groups are a good alternative to forums. People using a mailing list would be slightly disturbed by the change (as newsgroups can be used like mailing lists) and the newsgroups interface is very close to a forum. Alex. ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
On Saturday 24 May 2014 21:30 Stefano Mosconi wrote: PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. I think grievances about the community or Jolla should be allowed to a certain degree. Non-relevant personal attacks and/or trolling should not be allowed though. Hi, I believe that when there is something wrong (anywhere in the world) it's good to point that out and discuss it as much as possible. Only by analyzing what went wrong and how it could have gone better we (as human beings, community, companies) can improve. Discussing means (to me) trying to understand the facts, the emotions, and the assumptions on how it should have been and then find a way forward. Discussion implies an exchange of information (so it's not a I talk when you are done talking but a I listen while you talk and then I will talk back on the same topic (but stay with me please)). Personal attacks or trolling are of course not constructive discussion and usually just because personal attacks and trolling are not a discussion at all (you need at least 2 to tango). Goes without saying. These things won't happen often - if they do there is something wrong that should solved instead. Communication is vital for a community to survive. And when they happen they are halting the whole community for a long amount of time and focusing the eyes of the community on that. The community gets halted even longer without proper communication, meanwhile drying out a barely budding ecosystem - did that nature analogy go too far? ;) From the recent event - after reading endless emails, tweets, IRC logs etc. - I can only deduct, based on what was revealed, that it was personal issues. Still I don't think Jolla has handled it very well. Let me give you an example of dealing with such matters. I am aware that you don't have the resources to be as thorough, but you should - must - have the resources to be as open (github may have their flaws, but non-disclosure doesn't seem to be one of them): https://github.com/blog/1826-follow-up-to-the-investigation-results I refrain from proposing (even without a Jolla hat) how I would generally handle trolling. I let you guys figure it out, it's a pretty well known problem with well known solutions tested for centuries. As I am very new in this community I don't even know if this ml has a moderator, but obviously there should be one. In general moderation should be off, and only turned on when really needed. In such situations it is not an easy and often not appreciated role to have. It should preferably be a well-trusted and of course non-partisan community member, but in a community with a commercial backing such a person is even harder to find. As per the tools I think the tools are not so relevant as long as the community finds its way to discuss. Personally I don't love forums but that is only my preference, as I don't like pizza with pineapple. I loathe both of them ;) -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
Pizza with Pineapple - abomination that tops even Kalakukko! On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:19 PM, Thomas Tanghus tho...@tanghus.net wrote: On Saturday 24 May 2014 21:30 Stefano Mosconi wrote: PS This thread is for generic guidelines - please keep any specific issues out of it. I think grievances about the community or Jolla should be allowed to a certain degree. Non-relevant personal attacks and/or trolling should not be allowed though. Hi, I believe that when there is something wrong (anywhere in the world) it's good to point that out and discuss it as much as possible. Only by analyzing what went wrong and how it could have gone better we (as human beings, community, companies) can improve. Discussing means (to me) trying to understand the facts, the emotions, and the assumptions on how it should have been and then find a way forward. Discussion implies an exchange of information (so it's not a I talk when you are done talking but a I listen while you talk and then I will talk back on the same topic (but stay with me please)). Personal attacks or trolling are of course not constructive discussion and usually just because personal attacks and trolling are not a discussion at all (you need at least 2 to tango). Goes without saying. These things won't happen often - if they do there is something wrong that should solved instead. Communication is vital for a community to survive. And when they happen they are halting the whole community for a long amount of time and focusing the eyes of the community on that. The community gets halted even longer without proper communication, meanwhile drying out a barely budding ecosystem - did that nature analogy go too far? ;) From the recent event - after reading endless emails, tweets, IRC logs etc. - I can only deduct, based on what was revealed, that it was personal issues. Still I don't think Jolla has handled it very well. Let me give you an example of dealing with such matters. I am aware that you don't have the resources to be as thorough, but you should - must - have the resources to be as open (github may have their flaws, but non-disclosure doesn't seem to be one of them): https://github.com/blog/1826-follow-up-to-the-investigation-results I refrain from proposing (even without a Jolla hat) how I would generally handle trolling. I let you guys figure it out, it's a pretty well known problem with well known solutions tested for centuries. As I am very new in this community I don't even know if this ml has a moderator, but obviously there should be one. In general moderation should be off, and only turned on when really needed. In such situations it is not an easy and often not appreciated role to have. It should preferably be a well-trusted and of course non-partisan community member, but in a community with a commercial backing such a person is even harder to find. As per the tools I think the tools are not so relevant as long as the community finds its way to discuss. Personally I don't love forums but that is only my preference, as I don't like pizza with pineapple. I loathe both of them ;) -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Thomas Tanghus ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
2014-05-24 12:56, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch skrev: My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. Now since a forum is suggested, I cannot resist to propose my favourite way of finding and sharing developer experience: a QA site (think Stack Overflow). Even if there is together.jolla.com, I haven't yet seen many concrete Sailfish development topics discussed there. Compared to forums and mailing lists, QA sites have the built-in advantage of distilling the best answers to be easily found instead of being buried in endless threads. Best regards, Erik ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
I give my vote for Gone Fishing QA site hmm http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sailfish-os Now since a forum is suggested, I cannot resist to propose my favourite way of finding and sharing developer experience: a QA site (think Stack Overflow). Even if there is together.jolla.com, I haven't yet seen many concrete Sailfish development topics discussed there. Compared to forums and mailing lists, QA sites have the built-in advantage of distilling the best answers to be easily found instead of being buried in endless threads. OK, one down-side to mailing lists: there are no Like, Thanks, +1 or the likes of it buttons - I would really have used that now :D ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
24.5.2014 19:32, Thomas B. Rücker: * karma: so distracting, I prefer the simple egalitarianism / meritocracy of mailing lists Could be folded into a mailing list feature too, just to annoy you. Just kidding. But knowing the Intarwebz™, someone has done that already… IIRC, the new Mailman 3 web interface called HyperKitty[1] has this. :) BTW, check it out, other than this gimmick the UI has reportedly many interesting and useful features. :) [1] https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/ ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
+1 On Sat May 24 2014 21:01:25 GMT+0100 (BST), Kimmo Lindholm wrote: I give my vote for Gone Fishing QA site hmm http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sailfish-os Now since a forum is suggested, I cannot resist to propose my favourite way of finding and sharing developer experience: a QA site (think Stack Overflow). Even if there is together.jolla.com, I haven't yet seen many concrete Sailfish development topics discussed there. Compared to forums and mailing lists, QA sites have the built-in advantage of distilling the best answers to be easily found instead of being buried in endless threads. OK, one down-side to mailing lists: there are no Like, Thanks, +1 or the likes of it buttons - I would really have used that now :D ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide
Ham, pineapple and aura cheese. Forever. And lots of garlic. On the topic. I prefer ml,but it's archive should have indexer. On Sat May 24 2014 21:55:18 GMT+0300 (EEST), Goulagman wrote: Hi, As per the tools I think the tools are not so relevant as long as the community finds its way to discuss. Personally I don't love forums but that is only my preference, as I don't like pizza with pineapple. I think it's becoming too personal here. As a fervent defender of pizzas with pineapple, this is an attack against my most innermost beliefs. Apart from that, I think that news groups are a good alternative to forums. People using a mailing list would be slightly disturbed by the change (as newsgroups can be used like mailing lists) and the newsgroups interface is very close to a forum. Alex. -- Sent from my Jolla ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
See on a forum you could have just edited the last post. On 5/24/2014 8:56 PM, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Ignore my last - I absentmindedly clicked Send before writing the content! My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. Martin points out that I could simulate the same with rules and filters: but that is post-fact, so if somebody starts spamming the list from different threads and sock-puppets, then I need to continually add new rules / filters. I prefer to spend my free time programming Sailfish apps, not rules in my mail client! While there is talk.maemo.org, that serves a different role: it is an independent forum (as opposed to one owned by Jolla); and the Sailfish part has not divided into more focused sub-forums yet. Chris Zitat von christopher.l...@thurweb.ch: Hi Iekku Zitat von Iekku Pylkka iekku.pyl...@jolla.com: Ahoy, We have been pondering the idea about forum. Truth to be told, we are too small company to follow and contribute to that as well. We are following/contributing to several IRC channels, together.Jolla.com, this mailing list and I'm bombing our technical developers with developer-c...@jolla.com questions I can't answer and can't find easily (below 30 minutes). And we have huge amount of work to do :) Yes, we could have trusted community members as a moderators in forum, but we would love to contribute and _read_ those posts coming to forum. Br, Iekku Pylkkä From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Martin Kolman [martin.kol...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 10:39 PM To: devel@lists.sailfishos.org Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide 23.5.2014 21:21, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch: Hi Jarko before we jump to splitting into multiple SF mailing lists, I wonder has any thought been given to replacing the lists with a developer' forum? I fear that multiple lists would not really help - I would end up subscribed to all of them (both those that I am very interested in, and those that I am sometimes interested in), and thus my In-box would be just as full as it is now. A forum would be divided into sub-forums, and being thread oriented (as opposed to post-oriented) I could freely choose which sub-forums and which threads I chose to dive into, and which to ignore. Well, roughly the same thing can (and usually is by people subscribing to mailing list) achieved by setting up mail filters and redirecting email to per-mailing-list folders. I can't even think about all those email directly ending in my main inbox... Regarding a forum - well, talk.maemo.org is currently basically filling the role of the main Sailfish forum and this seems to work just fine, so I don't really see the need for yet another forum instance (anybody still remembers forum.meego.com ?). Chris Zitat von Jarko Vihriala jarko.vihri...@jolla.com: We're looking into splitting the discussions on SF mailing lists. But, let's not make hasty moves and keep the technological part alive. thanks, Jarko From: devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org [devel-boun...@lists.sailfishos.org] on behalf of Ville M. Vainio [vivai...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 9:45 PM To: Sailfish OS Developers Subject: Re: [SailfishDevel] Acceptable Behaviour Guidelines - you decide Some of the discussions here have been borderline illegal; discouraging such behavior even with absence of 'technical' moderator tools (like you have even on barbaric environments like phpbb) is not necessarily a bad idea. On May 22, 2014 5:53 PM, christopher.l...@thurweb.chmailto:christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Seconded. I could not have put it better myself. Since the early days I have enjoyed the very open nature of this forum where pretty much anything goes that is vaguely Jolla / Qt / Open Source / technical. From my recollection the number of threads that struck me as definitely better elsewhere has been refreshingly small. Many of the threads have been helpful or and or insightful. Keep up the good work Chris Zitat von David Greaves david.grea...@jolla.commailto:david.grea...@jolla.com: There's been enough noise on this mailing list recently that some people have felt they don't want to participate. We need to be careful about over-policing discussions but there is such a thing as under-policing too. How would we (community, not Jolla) determine the line? and what measures do we think should be taken? Lorn pointed to this as a useful document: http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ FWIW I personally don't think there's anything happened recently that I would actually take action over. My delete key works fine and history shows that sometimes cries for help come in strange
Re: [SailfishDevel] was Acceptable Behaviour.. -- Forum
On 5/25/2014 2:34 AM, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch wrote: Hi Lauri That is an interesting perspective: my feeling / experience was exactly the opposite: the chief weakness of mailing lists is that they have no usability whatsoever: I get just a flat list of unorganised mails swamping my inbox. That of course may be down to the weaknesses of the web-mail client I use. I would welcome advice on best-practice tools for consuming mailing lists. I am (mostly) on OSX, sometimes on Windows and Linux. To quote Churchill give us the tools and we will do the job. Thunderbird allows a threaded view which works great for a threaded view and 'detects' mail server settings when you put in your email address. I filter mailing list mails from KDE, Qt and Sailfish in to their respective folders and then on each of those folders I [View Sort By Threaded] on each of those folders. From my point-of-view, plus points for usability of forums over mailing lists are (in no special order): * Stickies * Sub forums * Search * Private Messages * Edit previous posts (I could have used that today when I inadvertently clicked send too early) * Thread based perspective * Does not fill my mail file * Visible metadata such as number of replies, date of most recent reply, number of posts etc. Downsides of forums are: * yet another user/password to manage (although a forum could be integrated into together.jolla.com * yet another site to visit regularly (in addition to my mail client) * karma: so distracting, I prefer the simple egalitarianism / meritocracy of mailing lists Grüsse Chris Zitat von Lauri Nurmi lanu...@iki.fi: 24.5.2014 13:56, christopher.l...@thurweb.ch kirjoitti: My suggestion is that rather than splitting into multiple mailing lists, which does not really cure anything, you replace the mailing lists with a forum. I agree it would be crazy to have both. -1 Is there any forum platform whose usability is not totally terrible compared to mailing lists? First of all, to be able to keep track of who has replied to whose post, and which post, I want to see the posts as a tree. But offering such a tree view seems to be very rare on forums. LN ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org ___ SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org
