Re: The book Programming in D is in beta
On 14-11-2011 08:00, Ali Çehreli wrote: I have been translating my Turkish D book D Programlama Dili to English under the title Programming in D. I have decided to make its current state available online: http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html I will make more chapters available as they get translated. As the book is for the novice programmer, the chapters that have been translated so far will not be very interesting to you. For that reason, I have decided to skip a number of chapters and translate two from the later ones as well: Exceptions: http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/exceptions.html Ranges: http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/ranges.html I hadn't known that my English was so poor. :) Please be patient; the text is being edited by an expert English speaker and will continuously be updated as it gets corrected. I welcome any feedback at acehr...@yahoo.com and of course here. Thank you, Ali This is great news! We definitely need more literature on D. - Alex
Re: The book Programming in D is in beta
On 11/13/2011 11:00 PM, Ali Çehreli wrote: I have been translating my Turkish D book D Programlama Dili to English under the title Programming in D. I have decided to make its current state available online: http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html I will make more chapters available as they get translated. Great work! I also strongly suggest doing a Kindle version as well, even if you keep a free html version on the web. Having more D books on Amazon will help raise the profile of D.
Re: The book Programming in D is in beta
Great work! I also strongly suggest doing a Kindle version as well, even if you keep a free html version on the web. Having more D books on Amazon will help raise the profile of D. Great work! Yes, offer a kindle version for 79 EUR and upload a free pdf version in the name of a famous release group on usenet, torrent and several warez site. I promise you, that you'll spread the world.
Re: Future D Language Port for Memristor Architectures?
J. Varghese Wrote: Memristors have properties that may allow it to replace DRAM, SRAM and Flash and even perform logic. In theory, a single memristor based chip could store and retrieve data like an SSD at the speed of DRAM and perform data processing as well. A block of memristors on this chip could serve as storage while other blocks of memristors function as logic and the functions of each block can be changed at any time. Well... I believe, neural architectures already exist for quite a while.
Re: Future D Language Port for Memristor Architectures?
Kagamin s...@here.lot wrote in message news:j9rpjh$iuc$1...@digitalmars.com... J. Varghese Wrote: Memristors have properties that may allow it to replace DRAM, SRAM and Flash and even perform logic. In theory, a single memristor based chip could store and retrieve data like an SSD at the speed of DRAM and perform data processing as well. A block of memristors on this chip could serve as storage while other blocks of memristors function as logic and the functions of each block can be changed at any time. Well... I believe, neural architectures already exist for quite a while. Yea, I got one of 'em in my head. Talk about embedded!
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. Thanks, Andrei The Forums link points to a digitalmars.com page. I'd say, it shouldn't leave the site and point to a new page, that does only contain links to forums / newsgroups related to D, that are still active and interesting to the newcomer.
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei Alexandrescu: What characteristic of D would you substitute as a major differentiating feature? In this specific case I suggest to remove the word power. In general, I like D because I need a lot less time to write a correct program in D compared to C/C++, despite the lack of some D data structures. D helps me avoid mistakes. A question for you and other people: what are the differences (in design goals, mostly) between Ada and D2? Bye, bearophile
A word to the wise
don't chug homr breerf beer, sip it
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:50:04 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. It's way too cheesy in my opinion. Reads like a desperate sales pitch. Also, too much text - right now it looks like an unappealing wall of text. Also, ads? Really? Are we so cheap that we can't even afford web hosting without annoying the user with often embarrassingly-irrelevant advertisements? Compare with other programming language websites: http://golang.org/ http://www.scala-lang.org/ http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/cambridge/projects/fsharp/ -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 02:50 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to
crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is.
Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work
is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible
examples and twitter news are a new style element).
Feedback is welcome.
Thanks,
Andrei
Looks good, I think this is the right direction.
Nitpicks:
1.
// Type deduction works for function results. This is important for generic
// functions, such as min below, which works correctly for all comparable
// types.
auto min(T1, T2)(T1 lhs, T2 rhs) {
return rhs lhs ? rhs : lhs;
}
It does not. The two types need to have a common type as well.
2.
The scope statement example should actually show transactional code.
Otherwise the poor reader feels fooled into clicking See example.
Using scope(exit) to write something at function exit is useful for
debugging, but scope(failure) is the real thing that is important to show.
3.
If contract inheritance is to be promoted on the front page (and it is
certainly something that may attract developers), it should actually work.
4.
If we can find a less buzzy word than 'Multi-paradigm power' to describe
D's multi-paradigm power, that would be nice, but I am also fine with
the current state of affairs.
5.
The most important language features are not displayed at all. Where are
Metaprogramming, CTFE and code generation? It sure is hard to come up
with a short but convincing example, but I think we should try to.
that's a lie
I am not a liar. I guesss.I don't like being here, do I?
I do this, I guess
It's not so bad. I have to be so bad so that you can see.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 10:10 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:50:04 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. It's way too cheesy in my opinion. Reads like a desperate sales pitch. Also, too much text - right now it looks like an unappealing wall of text. Also, ads? Really? Are we so cheap that we can't even afford web hosting without annoying the user with often embarrassingly-irrelevant advertisements? Compare with other programming language websites: http://golang.org/ Very nice, but there is not really much more to say about Go (on a front page), because it is so small. http://www.scala-lang.org/ I did not like this at all when I was first looking for information about Scala. http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ It says I (love|*love*) ruby six times in a row. Cheesy enough =). http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/cambridge/projects/fsharp/ Same problem as scala-lang.org. Not enough interesting information/too much effort to get at it.
Did I post already!
This is very bad, well for me. What you do is very bad. That is why I hate you.
Re: Website message overhaul
I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison
chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark /
how-tos will work better than a page filled of words.
Il giorno lun, 14/11/2011 alle 10.15 +0100, Timon Gehr ha scritto:
On 11/14/2011 02:50 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to
crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is.
Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work
is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible
examples and twitter news are a new style element).
Feedback is welcome.
Thanks,
Andrei
Looks good, I think this is the right direction.
Nitpicks:
1.
// Type deduction works for function results. This is important for generic
// functions, such as min below, which works correctly for all comparable
// types.
auto min(T1, T2)(T1 lhs, T2 rhs) {
return rhs lhs ? rhs : lhs;
}
It does not. The two types need to have a common type as well.
2.
The scope statement example should actually show transactional code.
Otherwise the poor reader feels fooled into clicking See example.
Using scope(exit) to write something at function exit is useful for
debugging, but scope(failure) is the real thing that is important to show.
3.
If contract inheritance is to be promoted on the front page (and it is
certainly something that may attract developers), it should actually work.
4.
If we can find a less buzzy word than 'Multi-paradigm power' to describe
D's multi-paradigm power, that would be nice, but I am also fine with
the current state of affairs.
5.
The most important language features are not displayed at all. Where are
Metaprogramming, CTFE and code generation? It sure is hard to come up
with a short but convincing example, but I think we should try to.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 10:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. I agree. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. I think this is a valid proposal, but an analytical mind is usually able to do comparisons with other known languages itself. There should maybe be a link to some benchmarks where the text says that D compiles to fast native code though. I think the page should at least assume that the reader has some interest in informing himself about the language. It should just make that easy.
Re: Website message overhaul
On Monday, November 14, 2011 10:45:15 Timon Gehr wrote: On 11/14/2011 10:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. I agree. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. I think this is a valid proposal, but an analytical mind is usually able to do comparisons with other known languages itself. There should maybe be a link to some benchmarks where the text says that D compiles to fast native code though. I think the page should at least assume that the reader has some interest in informing himself about the language. It should just make that easy. Having such a page is a good idea, but I don't know that it needs to be the front page. We don't want to overload it with data. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Website message overhaul
Ok, but check this: for( unsigned int i = 0; i arr.size(); ++i) arr[i] = 10; vs arr[] = 10; or arr[0..1] = arr2[2..3]; This examples (about arrays) are (almost) self-explanatory and very impressive for a c/c++ coder. Same goes for strings, CTFE, parallelism, etc... Il giorno lun, 14/11/2011 alle 10.45 +0100, Timon Gehr ha scritto: On 11/14/2011 10:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. I agree. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. I think this is a valid proposal, but an analytical mind is usually able to do comparisons with other known languages itself. There should maybe be a link to some benchmarks where the text says that D compiles to fast native code though. I think the page should at least assume that the reader has some interest in informing himself about the language. It should just make that easy.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 1:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. There used to be a comparison chart. Everyone hated it.
enum - auto
Auto and immutable.
Can we please put an end to this issue?
I remember a few discussions, never a complete answer, but many
contradicting answers.
1. Is enum (its current usage) still a temporary hack to a technical
limitation on immutable?
2. Can or Will immutable replace enum? (Not that i want such a change)
3. Isn't enum a higher order immutable, which is guarantied to be a
compile time constant?
--
Another issue, auto.
I was thinking that it works like C++0x auto.
Now i realize they are not that alike. Can anyone show me the D equivalent
of the code below?
struct test {
int a;
};
void main() {
test tmp;
auto a = tmp.a;
}
Thanks.
Re: enum - auto
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:14:02 +0200, so s...@so.so wrote: Auto and immutable. Uhm sorry, that should be Enum and immutable
Re: enum - auto
You obviously did not pay attention to the recent thread about enums. You participated in it as well... Enums are different things from immutables. End of story.
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei, what attracted me to D some ... 7-8 years ago was the fact it is a *pragmatic* language. Modules, unittesting, design by contract, version keyword, much clearer syntax for templates where always on top of my list of D features. Kind regards
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:45:15 +0200, Timon Gehr timon.g...@gmx.ch wrote: On 11/14/2011 10:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. I agree. I do not agree, most programmers have only one thing in common, they all are programmers and even that is questionable.
Re: enum - auto
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:14:02 +0100, so s...@so.so wrote:
Auto and immutable.
Can we please put an end to this issue?
I remember a few discussions, never a complete answer, but many
contradicting answers.
1. Is enum (its current usage) still a temporary hack to a technical
limitation on immutable?
Yes and no. Enum was chosen due to limitations in the linker, which made it
impossible to weed out unused constants. The linker is free to remove
unused
constants, but DMD's linker will not do so. Perhaps in the future, it will.
2. Can or Will immutable replace enum? (Not that i want such a change)
Enum is now an established part of the language, and even if such were
possible,
it is not going to happen.
3. Isn't enum a higher order immutable, which is guarantied to be a
compile time constant?
One could think of it as such, yes. That hardly gives much advantage over
immutable, though. The main feature of enum is that it takes up no space
in the
result binary.
Another issue, auto.
I was thinking that it works like C++0x auto.
Now i realize they are not that alike. Can anyone show me the D
equivalent of the code below?
struct test {
int a;
};
void main() {
test tmp;
auto a = tmp.a;
}
That would be a reference to an int, right? No such thing in D, except for
function parameters. What you would do instead is get a pointer:
struct test {
int a;
}
void main() {
test tmp;
auto a = tmp.a;
}
this is very bad
I am very bad because.. I'm not and I don't. It's very bad to be me. I haven't lived a day without someone I love very much... isn't that selfish.
I dunno, I need your help
I don't owe you anything
I drnk, but you suk
I really do. I hae your.
I like being crazy
you are fucking stupid idiots, right?
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:06:52 +0200, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 1:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. There used to be a comparison chart. Everyone hated it. Not everyone, it was the first thing i checked, C++/C/C++0x comparison.
why I hate you
you are so smart now. you got your vote. you got your flag. you are wrong.
maybe I want your help
maybe you should get the fuck out of my face
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 2:36 AM, so wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:06:52 +0200, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 1:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. There used to be a comparison chart. Everyone hated it. Not everyone, it was the first thing i checked, C++/C/C++0x comparison. Well, it's dead and will not be resurrected. The criticism of it was heavy, pitiless and unrelenting. And correct.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 2:27 AM, Dejan Lekic wrote: Andrei, what attracted me to D some ... 7-8 years ago was the fact it is a *pragmatic* language. Modules, unittesting, design by contract, version keyword, much clearer syntax for templates where always on top of my list of D features. The idea for the front page is to list 3 concepts about D. Not 2, not 4, and most definitely not a laundry list. This is based on a fair amount of cognitive research. Each concept can have 3 sub-aspects to it, etc. So yes, D has a lot of features, and everyone has their favorites. The hard part is boiling it down to the 3 most essential and definitive concepts about D, and then to be able to summarize it into a tweet sized chunk of text. If someone asks about D, and they get a long rambling list of features, they will tune out.
can you help me?
I can't see beyond getting drunk
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 11:03 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: Ok, but check this: for( unsigned int i = 0; i arr.size(); ++i) arr[i] = 10; vs arr[] = 10; or arr[0..1] = arr2[2..3]; This examples (about arrays) are (almost) self-explanatory and very impressive for a c/c++ coder. Same goes for strings, CTFE, parallelism, etc... I agree, those should totally be in an example somewhere. I was just saying that the C++ version does not strictly need to be there too.
I am bad every time I post
I work on problems and nevermind what you cannot have. It sucks to be me because , well maybe I'm not so bad. From a long far away place though.they have a lot to learn.
please help me
I did not mean it
I lie about everything
I get drunk a lot to. I don't know if it counts. I don't really care about your stuff... so fuck off
please help me
you suck
I don't know how to feel
something very bad happened,
please help me
I love someone so much
Re: enum - auto
On 11/14/2011 11:33 AM, Simen Kjærås wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:14:02 +0100, so s...@so.so wrote: Auto and immutable. Can we please put an end to this issue? I remember a few discussions, never a complete answer, but many contradicting answers. 1. Is enum (its current usage) still a temporary hack to a technical limitation on immutable? Yes and no. Enum was chosen due to limitations in the linker, which made it impossible to weed out unused constants. The linker is free to remove unused constants, but DMD's linker will not do so. Perhaps in the future, it will. I guess this is not a problem on Linux. I still find the enum storage class to add significant value to the language. 2. Can or Will immutable replace enum? (Not that i want such a change) Enum is now an established part of the language, and even if such were possible, it is not going to happen. 3. Isn't enum a higher order immutable, which is guarantied to be a compile time constant? static immutable variables are also guaranteed to be compile time constants. enum and immutable are not too tightly related. One could think of it as such, yes. That hardly gives much advantage over immutable, though. The main feature of enum is that it takes up no space in the result binary. There are other important differences. enums are always treated like values, even if their type has reference semantics. (basically, that means their value is just copied each time they are referenced.) This is necessary to guarantee their constancy without restricting operations on their values. Furthermore writing enum x = foo(); // CTFE'd/compile time constant is much more convenient than having to write static immutable x = foo(); // CTFE'd/compile time constant Even when ignoring the fact that the second one infects x with the 'immutable' type qualifier.
Re: Class inheritance bug
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:51:38 -0500, Tobias M. tobia...@onlinehome.de wrote: This does not link because there is no main function. main() is required to link. Note the Warning 134: No Start Address message -Steve Why has the lack of a main funcktion (or start address) something to do with unimplemented methods? There are no unimplemented methods. They just aren't being linked in. All is fixed with a main method. If you wish to compile code without linking, you can do it via dmd -c. Then you will not get linker errors without a main method. General rule of thumb -- if you are getting linker errors, most likely the issue is with your build (i.e. you aren't passing enough stuff on the command line, or in the right order). The one exception is the main function, which is always expected by the linker, and must be provided by you (it's not in any library). -Steve
Re: [D-Programming-Deimos] Review process?
Ok, I think that the ncurses bindings are about ready. Just something to remember: ncurses is HUGE. There are probably hidden bugs somewhere. So there are a few questions that I'd like answered before I send a pull request. 1. layout of the files. I see that lzma is currently using C folder to house the C.h and deimos to house the .d files. Is this the standard that all of the repos should follow? I have simply put the .d files in the top level. Which would be the preferred method? 2. What will be the criteria for deciding what gets into Deimos? I understand not wanting to allow cruft and unsupportable bindings into Deimos, but at the same time, some of the projects would benefit from bug reports. 3. Can we get a set standard way to request that a new repo be added? I have ZeroMQ ready, but I'm a little unsure who to contact about adding it. I don't really want to bother anyone...
A little Problem translating a header file.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
ok, so I've been working on ncurses.
It's pretty much complete, but one of the things that I think needs to
be worked on is the ACS vars.
The header file uses this:
extern NCURSES_EXPORT_VAR(chtype) acs_map[];
#define NCURSES_ACS(c) (acs_map[NCURSES_CAST(unsigned char,c)])
/* VT100 symbols begin here */
#define ACS_ULCORNERNCURSES_ACS('l') /* upper left corner */
#define ACS_LLCORNERNCURSES_ACS('m') /* lower left corner */
#define ACS_URCORNERNCURSES_ACS('k') /* upper right corner */
#define ACS_LRCORNERNCURSES_ACS('j') /* lower right corner */
this way, you can simply type in, for example: addch(ACS_ULCORNER);
and it will print the appropriate character to the screen.
However, i've been struggling to come up with a way to allow this in
the D bindings.
The best that has been come up with (by Jon) is:
immutable enum ACS
{
/* VT100 symbols begin here */
ULCORNER = 'l',
LLCORNER = 'm',
URCORNER = 'k',
to use it you have to type: addch(acs_map[ACS.ULCORNER]);
Is there an easy way to do this that I have been missing?
Preferably something that can be done at compile time, rather than
having to call a function manually?
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Re: Add 'd-programming-language' to the D newsgroups web pages
Sorry to add OT-stuff here, but since you don't have a valid mail address placed down anywhere, Nick, I just wanted to state that your Goldie parsing system does not compile on 64 bit dmd due to the good old size_t vs uint for array sizes/inidices issue. Even after fixing these bugs goldie will crash with a range error. Plz respond to my mail address so we might fix that issue. Gor Gyolchanyan gor.f.gyolchan...@gmail.com wrote in message news:mailman.864.1321006800.24802.digitalmar...@puremagic.com... and community tools (i had to go through the pains of setting up google with this newsgroup to be able to use it at all). You can just use any normal NG client. It's no pain at all as long as you don't go using some web interface. 'Course, that said, a better official web interface to the NGs probably would be in D's best interest. That, plus suggestions (Opera, T-Bird, OE, etc) and instructions for real NG clients right there on the d site. ...And a clear notice that help with learning D belongs in D.learn, not here...
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 05:49:41 -0500, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 2:36 AM, so wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:06:52 +0200, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 1:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. There used to be a comparison chart. Everyone hated it. Not everyone, it was the first thing i checked, C++/C/C++0x comparison. Well, it's dead and will not be resurrected. The criticism of it was heavy, pitiless and unrelenting. And correct. http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/comparison.html Although it's not comparing itself to anything. Two comments on this page: 1. The chart is very tall and thin, it seems like a waste of space. Perhaps we could add a notes column to consolidate some of the descriptions later. 2. It should not be titled Comparison since there is no comparisons going on. The title on the left is called Features. That sounds much better. 3. Reading a lot of the notes on the bottom, it seems like it expects the chart to be comparing to C and C++. 4. Would it not be a valid place to list D1 features as well for comparison? -Steve
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 09:34:08 -0500, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 05:49:41 -0500, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 2:36 AM, so wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:06:52 +0200, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 1:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. There used to be a comparison chart. Everyone hated it. Not everyone, it was the first thing i checked, C++/C/C++0x comparison. Well, it's dead and will not be resurrected. The criticism of it was heavy, pitiless and unrelenting. And correct. http://www.d-programming-language.org/new/comparison.html Although it's not comparing itself to anything. Two comments on this page: I mean 4 comments :P Started out with 2 comments, but forgot to go back and edit this... -Steve
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote in message news:j9ps5n$30nq$1...@digitalmars.com... Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. Haven't had a chance to read through it yet, but initial observations: Con: Examples are never visible without JS. There is *no* good technical or stylistic reason for that. Like I was just telling someone on D.announce, if you need something collapsible, the way you do it is by leaving it uncollapsed in the HTML/CSS. Then, if you really want JS users to see it collapsed by default, you collapse it *via JS* upon page load. Or just make use of the noscript tag. There is *never* any reason to do it any differently than that. Con: I don't think it's a good stylistic choice to have *no* sample code at all on the main homepage without clicking. Put a good short snippet right there for everyone to always see. Doesn't have to be anything fancy or all-encompassing. You can look through other langauge's sites for inspiration - it's quickly becoming standard practice for languages to have a short example on their website's homepage. It's often not much more than a hello world, just to get a little taste of the language. Con: The little icons after external links are ugly and unnecessary. First of all, this isn't a wiki. More importantly, if anyone actually cares what links go to a different site, they can already tell that by hovering. If you're doing it out of worry that people will think they're still on the same site, well, that's *very* 1990's, and it was merely absurd paranoia even back then. It's not much better than those god-awful sites that have those rediculous and patronizing you are now leaving our site screens. Con: While I don't have any objection to there *being* Kindle versions of the docs, I strongly feel it doesn't deserve a place in the default sidebar. Call it a matter of pulling it's own weight. It's just not nearly significant enough, and it's easy enough (and perfectly sufficient) to have a link to the kindle version of the Book/Reference *on* the main page for the Book/Reference. Besides, we're not an Amazon advertisement here. Plus: I don't see this new twitface element people are talking about. Yes, I realize *some* people like such sites, but that's no excuse for cramming it down *everyone's* face. Again, we're not here to be twitface's free advertising. So I like that whatever this new thing is isn't showing up.
Re: Website message overhaul
Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote in message news:j9qrpf$1lkt$1...@digitalmars.com... On 11/14/2011 2:36 AM, so wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:06:52 +0200, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 11/14/2011 1:37 AM, Andrea Fontana wrote: I think most of programmers has an analytical mind. So IMHO a comparison chart (with others programming languages) of features / benchmark / how-tos will work better than a page filled of words. There used to be a comparison chart. Everyone hated it. Not everyone, it was the first thing i checked, C++/C/C++0x comparison. Well, it's dead and will not be resurrected. The criticism of it was heavy, pitiless and unrelenting. And correct. I found it to be a *huge* help when I first came across D. I always liked it.
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote in message news:j9ps5n$30nq$1...@digitalmars.com... Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I really think we need a link to the changelog. I can't even *find* a way to navigate to the changelog from d-p-l.org.
Re: Website message overhaul
Nick Sabalausky a@a.a wrote in message news:j9rbtd$2qqj$1...@digitalmars.com... Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote in message news:j9ps5n$30nq$1...@digitalmars.com... Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I really think we need a link to the changelog. I can't even *find* a way to navigate to the changelog from d-p-l.org. Speaking of the changelog, the d-p-l.org version of the changelog (which I had to get to by typing in the URL directly) is showing 2.056 as completely blank: http://www.d-programming-language.org/changelog.html Also, the justified-text should probably be disabled for this page since it just doesn't work well for this type of content. In particular, see the New/Changed Features section for 2.055. Most of it looks fine since the lines aren't long enough to wrap (in which case the justification isn't even doing *anything*), but then there's this absolutely hideous line in the middle that says The names of the values of std.mmfile.Mode,...
Re: State of LDC
On 2011-11-12 11:29:51 +, Jonas Drewsen said: dlang.org actually contains a copy of d-p-l.org. Maybe the owner of dlang.org is willing to let digitalmars take over that domain and make it the official domain. That would be much better that d-p-l.org I think. Wow! I didn't know. that's good. -- BR, Ruslan Mullakhmetov
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11, Nick Sabalausky a@a.a wrote: I really think we need a link to the changelog. I can't even *find* a way to navigate to the changelog from d-p-l.org. That's because Download Tools (http://d-programming-language.org/download.html) redirects to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html , even though there's a whole subcategory section as found here: http://d-programming-language.org/dmd-linux.html I think I've already reported this but nothing was done about it, or it was shot down, I don't really recall. But each of those DMD Linux/Win/OSX pages links to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html via the Download D Compiler link, so there's no reason Download Tools should link directly to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: so there's no reason Download Tools should link directly to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html. And because it redirects to that page you can't find information on what compiler arguments you can pass. This is a serious flaw imho.
Re: A little Problem translating a header file.
Jude Young Wrote:
/* VT100 symbols begin here */
#define ACS_ULCORNERNCURSES_ACS('l') /* upper left corner */
#define ACS_LLCORNERNCURSES_ACS('m') /* lower left corner */
#define ACS_URCORNERNCURSES_ACS('k') /* upper right corner */
#define ACS_LRCORNERNCURSES_ACS('j') /* lower right corner */
immutable enum ACS
{
/* VT100 symbols begin here */
ULCORNER = 'l',
LLCORNER = 'm',
URCORNER = 'k',
to use it you have to type: addch(acs_map[ACS.ULCORNER]);
addch_map(ubyte c)
{ addch(acs_map[c]); }
or
immutable enum ACS
{
/* VT100 symbols begin here */
ULCORNER = NCURSES_ACS('l'),
LLCORNER = NCURSES_ACS('m'),
URCORNER = NCURSES_ACS('k'),
should be CTFE'able if acs_map is immutable and known at compile time.
Re: meaning import order?
Alexey Veselovsky alexey.veselov...@gmail.com wrote in message
news:mailman.928.1321256527.24802.digitalmar...@puremagic.com...
=
$ cat main.d
import std = std.stdio;
import std.socket;
import std.array;
import std.getopt;
void main() { std.writeln(bar);}
==
compiles ok. But:
import std.socket;
import std.array;
import std.getopt;
import std = std.stdio;
void main() { std.writeln(bar);}
$ dmd main.d
main.d(6): Error: undefined identifier package std.writeln
wtf?
Looks like a bug, you should file it at http://d.puremagic.com/issues/
It might have something to do with an existing bug with renamed imports.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 14/11/2011 01:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. Thanks, Andrei - From the first look at the page it's a big block of text with no code. Very off putting from a programming language home page. - My advise here would be to *just* show the key bullet points, click for more information. - It's covered in buzz words. Are you trying to appeal to managers or programmers? - See example. is actually show/hide example, the text should reflect this. - Community - Maybe mention the IRC channel #D on freenode. - There's no need for the Walter Bright name-drop, particularly in a community section (Walter is not the community!) - Contribute - First thing I see is a bullet pointed list of compilers, DMD is not listed, perhaps the surrounding text needs to be re-worded - inconsistent capitalization of (C|c)ompiler - Definitely needs a Fork us on github banner of some sort A key thing I find missing is code - the first thing I want to see when I visit the home page of a new language is sample code. My advise here would be to always have a code section on one side, then have more information on the other, describing what the code is demonstrating. Something like http://imgur.com/QL619 where the right hand side would have code, the left hand side your 3 key points. -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Re: enum - auto
On 11/14/2011 11:21 AM, Dejan Lekic wrote: You obviously did not pay attention to the recent thread about enums. You participated in it as well... Enums are different things from immutables. End of story. I think discussing the matter does not hurt.
[OT] Goldie 64-bit (was: Add 'd-programming-language' to the D newsgroups web pages)
Armin Kazmi armin.ka...@tu-dortmund.de wrote in message news:j9r8s8$2ktq$1...@digitalmars.com... Sorry to add OT-stuff here, but since you don't have a valid mail address placed down anywhere, Nick, I just wanted to state that your Goldie parsing system does not compile on 64 bit dmd due to the good old size_t vs uint for array sizes/inidices issue. Even after fixing these bugs goldie will crash with a range error. Plz respond to my mail address so we might fix that issue. Ahh, thanks. I don't have a 64-bit system ATM, so that's how the problem crept in. Although I think I might at least have access to a 64-bit machine though, I should check... I do have issue tracking for Goldie here: View Tickets: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie/report Add Ticket: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie/newticket We should probably keep the discussion there unless there's a reason you'd prefer to keep it private. In either case, I'll directly email you a copy of this message in case you're not monitoring this thread any more.
Re: [OT] Goldie 64-bit (was: Add 'd-programming-language' to the D newsgroups web pages)
Nick Sabalausky a@a.a wrote in message news:j9rq36$k0n$1...@digitalmars.com... Armin Kazmi armin.ka...@tu-dortmund.de wrote in message news:j9r8s8$2ktq$1...@digitalmars.com... Sorry to add OT-stuff here, but since you don't have a valid mail address placed down anywhere, Nick, I just wanted to state that your Goldie parsing system does not compile on 64 bit dmd due to the good old size_t vs uint for array sizes/inidices issue. Even after fixing these bugs goldie will crash with a range error. Plz respond to my mail address so we might fix that issue. Ahh, thanks. I don't have a 64-bit system ATM, so that's how the problem crept in. Although I think I might at least have access to a 64-bit machine though, I should check... I do have issue tracking for Goldie here: View Tickets: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie/report Add Ticket: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie/newticket We should probably keep the discussion there unless there's a reason you'd prefer to keep it private. In either case, I'll directly email you a copy of this message in case you're not monitoring this thread any more. I've created an ticket for this issue: http://www.dsource.org/projects/goldie/ticket/20
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/13/11 11:27 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2011-11-14 02:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. Thanks, Andrei No mention of metaprogramming? It's part of the multi-paradigm point, but it should be better substantiated. May I suggest adding a Fork me on GitHub banner. Good idea. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 12:07 AM, Tobias Pankrath wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. Thanks, Andrei The Forums link points to a digitalmars.com page. I'd say, it shouldn't leave the site and point to a new page, that does only contain links to forums / newsgroups related to D, that are still active and interesting to the newcomer. Yes, we plan to migrate the groups and downloads page to d-p-l.org. Thanks, Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 2011-11-14 01:50:04 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I kind of like it, the structure. I don't like the visual presentation (but I understand that will come later). But most of all I think you're being too wordy. (I haven't read most of the thread yet, so sorry if I am just repeating what others have said.) Just take the three main points: - Modern convenience - Multi-paradigm power - Native efficiency That's all mixed up. Either use use these three *qualifiers*: - Modern - Multi-paradigm - Native Or these three *goals*: - Convenience - Power - Efficiency But matching each goal with a qualifier/feature makes things more confusing. At least for me, it automatically raise a bullshit flag in my head. Just answer this: why does the *multi-paradigm* feature bring power specifically? Couldn't it bring efficiency or convenience instead or in addition to power? How many ways could you combine words from these two lists and it'd still mean the same thing? -- Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com http://michelf.com/
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 1:10 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:50:04 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. It's way too cheesy in my opinion. Reads like a desperate sales pitch. Also, too much text - right now it looks like an unappealing wall of text. Also, ads? Really? Are we so cheap that we can't even afford web hosting without annoying the user with often embarrassingly-irrelevant advertisements? Compare with other programming language websites: http://golang.org/ http://www.scala-lang.org/ http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/cambridge/projects/fsharp/ There was more text on the page before, including a code example that wasn't very illustrative. While working on the homepage I kept an eye on those websites and others (Perl, Java) and my perception is that the proposed website compares well with others. Regarding ads, this is my I told you moment. I am completely opposed to ads anywhere on d-p-l.org, and I believe their presence hurts us in ways that the cost savings doesn't even begin to cover. I see it as a textbook case of penny wise. That being said, Walter agreed with removing ads from the homepage but not the other parts of the site. I didn't get to that yet. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 1:15 AM, Timon Gehr wrote:
Looks good, I think this is the right direction.
Nitpicks:
1.
// Type deduction works for function results. This is important for generic
// functions, such as min below, which works correctly for all comparable
// types.
auto min(T1, T2)(T1 lhs, T2 rhs) {
return rhs lhs ? rhs : lhs;
}
It does not. The two types need to have a common type as well.
It's difficult to be concise and complete simultaneously. The underlying
assumption is that if two types are comparable, they also have a common
type.
2.
The scope statement example should actually show transactional code.
Otherwise the poor reader feels fooled into clicking See example.
Using scope(exit) to write something at function exit is useful for
debugging, but scope(failure) is the real thing that is important to show.
Good point.
3.
If contract inheritance is to be promoted on the front page (and it is
certainly something that may attract developers), it should actually work.
Absolutely.
4.
If we can find a less buzzy word than 'Multi-paradigm power' to describe
D's multi-paradigm power, that would be nice, but I am also fine with
the current state of affairs.
5.
The most important language features are not displayed at all. Where are
Metaprogramming, CTFE and code generation? It sure is hard to come up
with a short but convincing example, but I think we should try to.
Those would be under the multi-paradigm thingie.
Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:45:58 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: There was more text on the page before, including a code example that wasn't very illustrative. Most other front pages are still more varied and dynamic. What happened with the ideas to have the latest commits / newsgroup topics / etc. in a box on the front page? Regarding ads, this is my I told you moment. I am completely opposed to ads anywhere on d-p-l.org, and I believe their presence hurts us in ways that the cost savings doesn't even begin to cover. I see it as a textbook case of penny wise. That being said, Walter agreed with removing ads from the homepage but not the other parts of the site. I didn't get to that yet. There's also a moral issue here. Except for the articles he's written, Walter is basically monetizing the work of everyone who's contributed to D. If it were just a matter of hosting, I'm sure there are many from our community who would gladly provide it. -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 7:23 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Andrei Alexandrescuseewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote in message news:j9ps5n$30nq$1...@digitalmars.com... Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I really think we need a link to the changelog. I can't even *find* a way to navigate to the changelog from d-p-l.org. Good idea. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 7:11 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Con: Examples are never visible without JS. There is *no* good technical or stylistic reason for that. Like I was just telling someone on D.announce, if you need something collapsible, the way you do it is by leaving it uncollapsed in the HTML/CSS. Then, if you really want JS users to see it collapsed by default, you collapse it *via JS* upon page load. Or just make use of the noscript tag. There is *never* any reason to do it any differently than that. I'm not sure what to do about catering for people who disable JS. Other language sites (Go, Scala) do use JS and at least Go is unprepared for it being disabled. Scala seems to have a designed fallback mode. A reasonable question is what percentage of people have Javascript disabled. I ran this query: https://www.google.com/search?gcx=wsourceid=chromeie=UTF-8q=percentage+javascript+disabled+browsers After looking through the top answers I inferred that the percentage is around 2% and declining. Con: I don't think it's a good stylistic choice to have *no* sample code at all on the main homepage without clicking. Put a good short snippet right there for everyone to always see. Doesn't have to be anything fancy or all-encompassing. You can look through other langauge's sites for inspiration - it's quickly becoming standard practice for languages to have a short example on their website's homepage. It's often not much more than a hello world, just to get a little taste of the language. Okay. Con: The little icons after external links are ugly and unnecessary. First of all, this isn't a wiki. More importantly, if anyone actually cares what links go to a different site, they can already tell that by hovering. If you're doing it out of worry that people will think they're still on the same site, well, that's *very* 1990's, and it was merely absurd paranoia even back then. It's not much better than those god-awful sites that have those rediculous and patronizing you are now leaving our site screens. I added that only to further distinguish See example which keeps you on the page from Read more which takes you out. Con: While I don't have any objection to there *being* Kindle versions of the docs, I strongly feel it doesn't deserve a place in the default sidebar. Call it a matter of pulling it's own weight. It's just not nearly significant enough, and it's easy enough (and perfectly sufficient) to have a link to the kindle version of the Book/Reference *on* the main page for the Book/Reference. Besides, we're not an Amazon advertisement here. Okay. Plus: I don't see this new twitface element people are talking about. Yes, I realize *some* people like such sites, but that's no excuse for cramming it down *everyone's* face. Again, we're not here to be twitface's free advertising. So I like that whatever this new thing is isn't showing up. You'd probably see it if you enabled javascript. The idea is that streaming Twitter news adds dynamism to the page, which encourages repeat visits. I don't see anything wrong with using such a technology to keep people informed. We're not in the business of creating news aggregators. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:01:49 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: After looking through the top answers I inferred that the percentage is around 2% and declining. This is a bad measurement. Technically-inclined people are more likely to fine-tune their web browsing experience. The best metrics would be of d-p-l.org visitors. However, making the website accessible without JS is so easy, it's not really worth arguing about. Reminder: there are people in this community (myself included) who have web programming experience and would gladly help out. Don't be afraid to ask. You'd probably see it if you enabled javascript. The idea is that streaming Twitter news adds dynamism to the page, which encourages repeat visits. I don't see anything wrong with using such a technology to keep people informed. We're not in the business of creating news aggregators. Speaking of which, the twitter widget needs to be placed in an iframe so that it doesn't block the page load (inline scripts cause browsers to stop parsing the page until the script is loaded and executed, which creates a network dependency on a website we don't control). -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 10:11 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 11/14/11, Nick Sabalauskya@a.a wrote: I really think we need a link to the changelog. I can't even *find* a way to navigate to the changelog from d-p-l.org. That's because Download Tools (http://d-programming-language.org/download.html) redirects to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html , even though there's a whole subcategory section as found here: http://d-programming-language.org/dmd-linux.html I think I've already reported this but nothing was done about it, or it was shot down, I don't really recall. But each of those DMD Linux/Win/OSX pages links to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html via the Download D Compiler link, so there's no reason Download Tools should link directly to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html. We will take care of this. From an email I wrote on Sunday: 4. We must make Download simpler and more direct. Downloads Tools on the right-hand site is small and has a diluted message. I want people who visit the homepage to see a prominent button offering immediate download of the compiler for their OS. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 10:13 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 11/14/11, Andrej Mitrovicandrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: so there's no reason Download Tools should link directly to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html. And because it redirects to that page you can't find information on what compiler arguments you can pass. This is a serious flaw imho. I don't understand this. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 11:04 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote: - From the first look at the page it's a big block of text with no code. Very off putting from a programming language home page. I think the current page with a big block of code is quite unappealing, too. - My advise here would be to *just* show the key bullet points, click for more information. Duly noted. - It's covered in buzz words. Are you trying to appeal to managers or programmers? Programmers. Of the language sites I looked at, scala-lang.org looked the most corporate-y. We are trying to convey the key advantages of D in few words. If we used weaker words, the message would be, well, weak. The point is that we really have something to show under each buzzword. - See example. is actually show/hide example, the text should reflect this. Hm, that should change when expanded. More work for me, sigh. - Community - Maybe mention the IRC channel #D on freenode. Yah, forgot - There's no need for the Walter Bright name-drop, particularly in a community section (Walter is not the community!) Walter is the most prominent member of the community. I think the mention is entirely appropriate. In particular, we noted that the old site doesn't mention Walter as the creator of D, and that many people don't know who invented D. - Contribute - First thing I see is a bullet pointed list of compilers, DMD is not listed, perhaps the surrounding text needs to be re-worded The idea is that there'd be copious download links before that point (to be added). - inconsistent capitalization of (C|c)ompiler OK. - Definitely needs a Fork us on github banner of some sort OK. A key thing I find missing is code - the first thing I want to see when I visit the home page of a new language is sample code. OK. My advise here would be to always have a code section on one side, then have more information on the other, describing what the code is demonstrating. Something like http://imgur.com/QL619 where the right hand side would have code, the left hand side your 3 key points. Thanks! Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 11:41 AM, Michel Fortin wrote: On 2011-11-14 01:50:04 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I kind of like it, the structure. I don't like the visual presentation (but I understand that will come later). But most of all I think you're being too wordy. (I haven't read most of the thread yet, so sorry if I am just repeating what others have said.) Just take the three main points: - Modern convenience - Multi-paradigm power - Native efficiency That's all mixed up. Either use use these three *qualifiers*: - Modern - Multi-paradigm - Native Or these three *goals*: - Convenience - Power - Efficiency It's a good idea to keep the top message as is and then eliminate the goals from the bullet points. But matching each goal with a qualifier/feature makes things more confusing. At least for me, it automatically raise a bullshit flag in my head. Just answer this: why does the *multi-paradigm* feature bring power specifically? Because it allows you to model difficult problem domains. Couldn't it bring efficiency or convenience instead or in addition to power? It could, but that would be secondary at best. How many ways could you combine words from these two lists and it'd still mean the same thing? Not many. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
The cost of supporting non-scripted browsing is virtually zero. There's really no reason not to, even if Nick and I are the only people left on Earth who disable javascript!
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 12:09 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:01:49 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: After looking through the top answers I inferred that the percentage is around 2% and declining. This is a bad measurement. Technically-inclined people are more likely to fine-tune their web browsing experience. The best metrics would be of d-p-l.org visitors. However, making the website accessible without JS is so easy, it's not really worth arguing about. Reminder: there are people in this community (myself included) who have web programming experience and would gladly help out. Don't be afraid to ask. By this I am asking. Let's do this - finish this pass, and then make sure things work properly without javascript. From what I understand that's not difficult. You'd probably see it if you enabled javascript. The idea is that streaming Twitter news adds dynamism to the page, which encourages repeat visits. I don't see anything wrong with using such a technology to keep people informed. We're not in the business of creating news aggregators. Speaking of which, the twitter widget needs to be placed in an iframe so that it doesn't block the page load (inline scripts cause browsers to stop parsing the page until the script is loaded and executed, which creates a network dependency on a website we don't control). Yah, good point. That raises additional issues but probably needs to be done at some point. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11 11:55 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:45:58 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: There was more text on the page before, including a code example that wasn't very illustrative. Most other front pages are still more varied and dynamic. What happened with the ideas to have the latest commits / newsgroup topics / etc. in a box on the front page? What happened is that nobody took those to completion. I did all I could in a limited amount of time. My focus was the message more than the presentation. Regarding ads, this is my I told you moment. I am completely opposed to ads anywhere on d-p-l.org, and I believe their presence hurts us in ways that the cost savings doesn't even begin to cover. I see it as a textbook case of penny wise. That being said, Walter agreed with removing ads from the homepage but not the other parts of the site. I didn't get to that yet. There's also a moral issue here. Except for the articles he's written, Walter is basically monetizing the work of everyone who's contributed to D. I think that's an exaggeration. Andrei
Re: Website message overhaul
Is the site source on the github? We could always go back and fix the code/script issues later with a pull request.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/11, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 11/14/11 10:13 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 11/14/11, Andrej Mitrovicandrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: so there's no reason Download Tools should link directly to http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html. And because it redirects to that page you can't find information on what compiler arguments you can pass. This is a serious flaw imho. I don't understand this. Andrei I just meant if there's no link to the compiler information page (e.g. http://d-programming-language.org/dmd-linux.html), then people can't really figure out how to use DMD. And Downloads Tools is supposed to link there. But it's getting fixed, so that's good.
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:16:11 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 11/14/11 11:55 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:45:58 +0200, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: There was more text on the page before, including a code example that wasn't very illustrative. Most other front pages are still more varied and dynamic. What happened with the ideas to have the latest commits / newsgroup topics / etc. in a box on the front page? What happened is that nobody took those to completion. I did all I could in a limited amount of time. My focus was the message more than the presentation. I could easily do the technical part (I already have something that announces GitHub events, newsgroup and twitter posts on the #d IRC channel). Should it be multiple boxes, or one single feed? I could format it as a single chronological list, with multiple syndicated sources. (Icons can be used to visually distinguish event sources.) -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
On 14/11/2011 20:12, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 11/14/11 11:04 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote: - From the first look at the page it's a big block of text with no code. Very off putting from a programming language home page. I think the current page with a big block of code is quite unappealing, too. Well neither is ideal! It'll probably take some fine-tuning to get the right balance. - My advise here would be to *just* show the key bullet points, click for more information. Duly noted. I always found this really annoying (though it seems to work well for a lot of things) - having an automatic scroll through the bullet points showing them in more detail could work though. - It's covered in buzz words. Are you trying to appeal to managers or programmers? Programmers. Of the language sites I looked at, scala-lang.org looked the most corporate-y. We are trying to convey the key advantages of D in few words. If we used weaker words, the message would be, well, weak. The point is that we really have something to show under each buzzword. few words + little code = big impact At least in my opinion. I know this differs a lot, but most of my generation don't read more than a few words on screen unless they have to, their eyes jump almost immediately to what they want to see. Having some code and some text is probably the best way to simplify this. - See example. is actually show/hide example, the text should reflect this. Hm, that should change when expanded. More work for me, sigh. It's only a couple of lines of code ;) - Community - Maybe mention the IRC channel #D on freenode. Yah, forgot - There's no need for the Walter Bright name-drop, particularly in a community section (Walter is not the community!) Walter is the most prominent member of the community. I think the mention is entirely appropriate. In particular, we noted that the old site doesn't mention Walter as the creator of D, and that many people don't know who invented D. I challenge you to find a programming language website that mentions the creator on the front page. It's not that I don't think Walter deserves credit for his work, just that I don't deem it such an important detail that it needs to be on the homepage. Also, should D gain popularity I foresee Walter being bombarded with direct questions rather than them coming to the community who are just as qualified to answer a lot of them - having his name on the front page won't help this :) -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 08:47 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 11/14/11 1:15 AM, Timon Gehr wrote:
Looks good, I think this is the right direction.
Nitpicks:
1.
// Type deduction works for function results. This is important for
generic
// functions, such as min below, which works correctly for all comparable
// types.
auto min(T1, T2)(T1 lhs, T2 rhs) {
return rhs lhs ? rhs : lhs;
}
It does not. The two types need to have a common type as well.
It's difficult to be concise and complete simultaneously. The underlying
assumption is that if two types are comparable, they also have a common
type.
hm, maybe call the them 'compatible comparable types'?
2.
The scope statement example should actually show transactional code.
Otherwise the poor reader feels fooled into clicking See example.
Using scope(exit) to write something at function exit is useful for
debugging, but scope(failure) is the real thing that is important to
show.
Good point.
3.
If contract inheritance is to be promoted on the front page (and it is
certainly something that may attract developers), it should actually
work.
Absolutely.
There has been disagreement on whether or not my bug report on the
matter was valid.
What it means for your example:
// Interfaces and classe
interface Printable {
void print(uint level)
in { assert(level 0); } // contract is part of the interface
}
// Interface implementation
class Widget : Printable {
void print(uint level) { ... }
}
void main(){
Widget w = new Widget();
w.print(0); // passes through, but should not
}
Can you state in the issue tracker that the bug report is valid?
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=6856
4.
If we can find a less buzzy word than 'Multi-paradigm power' to describe
D's multi-paradigm power, that would be nice, but I am also fine with
the current state of affairs.
5.
The most important language features are not displayed at all. Where are
Metaprogramming, CTFE and code generation? It sure is hard to come up
with a short but convincing example, but I think we should try to.
Those would be under the multi-paradigm thingie.
Ok. Maybe there could be a few LOC demonstrating the 'recurrence'
function generating a few fibonacci numbers. I think it is a nice
showcase, although I have never needed that particular function in real
code :o). It has also the potential of showing Phobos' lazy functional
style features. But unfortunately, most functional programmers will
shriek for a moment when they see the argument order of 'take'.
Re: Website message overhaul
Vladimir Panteleev wrote: I could easily do the technical part If you like, I can send you the code from my implementation of the last idea too. You can see it live here: http://arsdnet.net/d-web-site/ It's all written in D too, but I haven't updated it for months. (and lol, my crappy web newsreader that I never finished works much better than the one on digitalmars.com! At least mine actually loads every time.)
Re: Website message overhaul
On 11/14/2011 08:41 PM, Michel Fortin wrote: On 2011-11-14 01:50:04 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I kind of like it, the structure. I don't like the visual presentation (but I understand that will come later). But most of all I think you're being too wordy. (I haven't read most of the thread yet, so sorry if I am just repeating what others have said.) Just take the three main points: - Modern convenience - Multi-paradigm power - Native efficiency That's all mixed up. Either use use these three *qualifiers*: - Modern - Multi-paradigm - Native Or these three *goals*: - Convenience - Power - Efficiency +1. Gets us rid of the buzzy 'Multi-paradigm' in the title too. But matching each goal with a qualifier/feature makes things more confusing. At least for me, it automatically raise a bullshit flag in my head. Just answer this: why does the *multi-paradigm* feature bring power specifically? Couldn't it bring efficiency or convenience instead or in addition to power? How many ways could you combine words from these two lists and it'd still mean the same thing?
Re: Website message overhaul
Oh, forgot to mention, that try now button currently doesn't work. My server that was hosting the compiler died and I haven't replaced it yet.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 2011-11-14 21:12, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: The cost of supporting non-scripted browsing is virtually zero. There's really no reason not to, even if Nick and I are the only people left on Earth who disable javascript! I have disabled javascript by default as well. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Website message overhaul
On 2011-11-14 19:41:28 +, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com said: On 2011-11-14 01:50:04 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I kind of like it, the structure. I don't like the visual presentation (but I understand that will come later). But most of all I think you're being too wordy. (I haven't read most of the thread yet, so sorry if I am just repeating what others have said.) More comments: At least make the key words bold in the lists of features so you can scan the text and pass over the parts that are not interesting to you. The news section is empty for me (I get an empty twitter frame with a join the conversation link). I guess that's my fault for using browser extensions to disable various web tracking APIs, so I won't complain. -- Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com http://michelf.com/
Re: Website message overhaul
On 2011-11-14 21:09, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: Speaking of which, the twitter widget needs to be placed in an iframe so that it doesn't block the page load (inline scripts cause browsers to stop parsing the page until the script is loaded and executed, which creates a network dependency on a website we don't control). Put the JavaScript at the end of the page instead. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Website message overhaul
On 2011-11-14 20:14:22 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: On 11/14/11 11:41 AM, Michel Fortin wrote: On 2011-11-14 01:50:04 +, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org said: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. I kind of like it, the structure. I don't like the visual presentation (but I understand that will come later). But most of all I think you're being too wordy. (I haven't read most of the thread yet, so sorry if I am just repeating what others have said.) Just take the three main points: - Modern convenience - Multi-paradigm power - Native efficiency That's all mixed up. Either use use these three *qualifiers*: - Modern - Multi-paradigm - Native Or these three *goals*: - Convenience - Power - Efficiency It's a good idea to keep the top message as is and then eliminate the goals from the bullet points. But matching each goal with a qualifier/feature makes things more confusing. At least for me, it automatically raise a bullshit flag in my head. Just answer this: why does the *multi-paradigm* feature bring power specifically? Because it allows you to model difficult problem domains. Couldn't it bring efficiency or convenience instead or in addition to power? It could, but that would be secondary at best. How many ways could you combine words from these two lists and it'd still mean the same thing? Not many. You mean this doesn't make sense to you? - Multi-paradigm convenience: it's much more convenient than mixing code from two or more languages. - Native power: can use every bit of power your hardware can provide because it's native. - Modern efficiency: all modern languages now have good optimizers built-in, making the code efficient. It probably makes more sense from your perspective to match them the way you did, I won't contest that. But there's always a way to match them differently that would fit someone else's perspective. So to me it raises questions whether those words mean anything or they are there to impress the less knowledgeable (buzzwords). Or at least it'd raise those questions if I were visiting the site for the first time. -- Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com http://michelf.com/
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote in message news:j9rs4o$nrs$1...@digitalmars.com... On 11/14/11 7:11 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Con: Examples are never visible without JS. There is *no* good technical or stylistic reason for that. Like I was just telling someone on D.announce, if you need something collapsible, the way you do it is by leaving it uncollapsed in the HTML/CSS. Then, if you really want JS users to see it collapsed by default, you collapse it *via JS* upon page load. Or just make use of the noscript tag. There is *never* any reason to do it any differently than that. I'm not sure what to do about catering for people who disable JS. Other language sites (Go, Scala) do use JS and at least Go is unprepared for it being disabled. Well, that's not too surprising since Go comes from people in Google. Google's been really trying to push JS more and more the last so many years. Scala seems to have a designed fallback mode. A reasonable question is what percentage of people have Javascript disabled. I ran this query: https://www.google.com/search?gcx=wsourceid=chromeie=UTF-8q=percentage+javascript+disabled+browsers After looking through the top answers I inferred that the percentage is around 2% and declining. Vlad and Adam have already addressed all of this pretty well, including most of my main points, but I'd like that add that while even 1% sounds small, it's still a hell of a lot of people. Also, and this is getting slightly offtopic, but I've often wondered about the reliability of Google's stats about JS vs non-JS. My understanding is that Google Analytics *uses* JS, so I would think there's a good chance that many non-JS users are unaccounted for. But maybe I'm wrong. But even that possible inaccuracy aside, many of the people who disable JS do so selectively via NoScript. It's common to have JS disabled by default, but then turn it on for certain domains. I'd be willing to bet that among the people who do that, google would probably be a very common domain to have JS enabled on (even I sometimes have it on for the google domain even though I don't like to do so). So that would skew google's recorded non-JS results lower than they really are. So then those NoScript selective-JS users would go to d-p-l.org and basic, trivial stuff on the frontpage would fail to work. Maybe they would then turn JS on for d-p-l.org, too, but it would leave a bad first impression - which is exactly what that page is designed for: first impressions.
Re: Website message overhaul
On 2011-11-14 21:12, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter is the most prominent member of the community. I think the mention is entirely appropriate. In particular, we noted that the old site doesn't mention Walter as the creator of D, and that many people don't know who invented D. That may be more appropriate on page covering the history and background of D. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Timon Gehr timon.g...@gmx.ch wrote:
On 11/14/2011 08:47 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 11/14/11 1:15 AM, Timon Gehr wrote:
Looks good, I think this is the right direction.
Nitpicks:
1.
// Type deduction works for function results. This is important for
generic
// functions, such as min below, which works correctly for all comparable
// types.
auto min(T1, T2)(T1 lhs, T2 rhs) {
return rhs lhs ? rhs : lhs;
}
It does not. The two types need to have a common type as well.
It's difficult to be concise and complete simultaneously. The underlying
assumption is that if two types are comparable, they also have a common
type.
hm, maybe call the them 'compatible comparable types'?
2.
The scope statement example should actually show transactional code.
Otherwise the poor reader feels fooled into clicking See example.
Using scope(exit) to write something at function exit is useful for
debugging, but scope(failure) is the real thing that is important to
show.
Good point.
3.
If contract inheritance is to be promoted on the front page (and it is
certainly something that may attract developers), it should actually
work.
Absolutely.
There has been disagreement on whether or not my bug report on the matter
was valid.
What it means for your example:
// Interfaces and classe
interface Printable {
void print(uint level)
in { assert(level 0); } // contract is part of the interface
}
// Interface implementation
class Widget : Printable {
void print(uint level) { ... }
}
void main(){
Widget w = new Widget();
w.print(0); // passes through, but should not
}
Can you state in the issue tracker that the bug report is valid?
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/**show_bug.cgi?id=6856http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=6856
4.
If we can find a less buzzy word than 'Multi-paradigm power' to describe
D's multi-paradigm power, that would be nice, but I am also fine with
the current state of affairs.
5.
The most important language features are not displayed at all. Where are
Metaprogramming, CTFE and code generation? It sure is hard to come up
with a short but convincing example, but I think we should try to.
Those would be under the multi-paradigm thingie.
Ok. Maybe there could be a few LOC demonstrating the 'recurrence' function
generating a few fibonacci numbers. I think it is a nice showcase, although
I have never needed that particular function in real code :o). It has also
the potential of showing Phobos' lazy functional style features. But
unfortunately, most functional programmers will shriek for a moment when
they see the argument order of 'take'.
I think that's a good idea. While learning D I became impressed with it
when I solved Project Euler problem 2 (By considering the terms in the
Fibonacci sequence whose values do not exceed four million, find the sum of
the even-valued terms.) with:
auto answer = reduce!a + b(filter!a % 2 == 0(until!a
4_000_000(recurrence!a[n-1] + a[n-2](1, 1;
It'd look better with UFCS but it's still rather neat I think.
Translation of C struct to D
Hi!
I currently try to create a simple linux driver (for test purposes) just
like in [1] in D based on [2]. The main difficulty is to call
register_chrdev. It expects an argument fops of type file_operations
which can look like that in C:
static struct file_operations fops = {
.read = device_read,
.write = device_write,
.open = device_open,
.release = device_release
};
device_read and so on are functions. Originally, file_operations has
much more fields and it's possible to omit unused fields.
What I tried so far: I declared register_chrdev as follows:
extern (C):
int register_chrdev (uint major, char *name, file_operations *fops);
My try for the translation of file_operations looks like that:
struct file_operations {
int function() open;
int function() release;
};
In init_module() I have the following code:
char[] DEVICE_NAME = dtestdev;
file_operations fops;
fops.open = device_open;
fops.release = device_close;
Major = register_chrdev(0, std.string.toStringz(DEVICE_NAME), fops);
The code compiles with some warnings, and if I try to insert it into the
kernel, I get some messages in the kernel log.
WARNING: _D3std6string9toStringzFAaZPa [./hello.ko] undefined!
WARNING: _Dmodule_ref [./hello.ko] undefined!
WARNING: _D15TypeInfo_Struct6__vtblZ [./hello.ko] undefined!
WARNING: register_chrdev [./hello.ko] undefined!
WARNING: _D3std6string12__ModuleInfoZ [./hello.ko] undefined!
Nov 14 21:12:39 eeepc1104 kernel: [17127.068990] hello: Unknown symbol
_D3std6string12__ModuleInfoZ (err 0)
Nov 14 21:12:39 eeepc1104 kernel: [17127.069613] hello: Unknown symbol
register_chrdev (err 0)
Nov 14 21:12:39 eeepc1104 kernel: [17127.070462] hello: Unknown symbol
_D15TypeInfo_Struct6__vtblZ (err 0)
Nov 14 21:12:39 eeepc1104 kernel: [17127.071359] hello: Unknown symbol
_Dmodule_ref (err 0)
Nov 14 21:12:39 eeepc1104 kernel: [17127.072352] hello: Unknown symbol
_D3std6string9toStringzFAaZPa (err 0)
Any help greatly appreciated.
Greetings
Michael
[1] http://tldp.org/LDP/lkmpg/2.6/html/lkmpg.html#AEN680
[2]
http://iainbuclaw.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/writing-a-linux-kernel-module-in-d/
Re: Website message overhaul
Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote in message news:j9rso9$ov0$1...@digitalmars.com... On 11/14/11 11:04 AM, Robert Clipsham wrote: - See example. is actually show/hide example, the text should reflect this. Hm, that should change when expanded. More work for me, sigh. Just changing the text from See example to show/hide example should be perfectly sufficent. 'Course, if you'd really rather make it change, that'd certainly be fine too.
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:37:50 +0200, Adam D. Ruppe destructiona...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, forgot to mention, that try now button currently doesn't work. How did you do the sandboxing? I was messing with creating chroot jails for another project. The filesystem security is easy to nail down, but there remains the question of limiting up resources (ulimit? cgroups?). There's also the dilemma of network access - should it be allowed for the sake of network code examples, or forbidden to prevent abuse? -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:36:08 +0200, Adam D. Ruppe destructiona...@gmail.com wrote: It's all written in D too, but I haven't updated it for months. That's a solid piece of work. If you like, I can send you the code from my implementation of the last idea too. Why not make it open-source? I think the best way to make things last is to open-source them - then anyone can fix them if I run out of time/interest/under a bus. If I can't open-source your code, we might be better-off with a rewrite :) (and lol, my crappy web newsreader that I never finished works much better than the one on digitalmars.com! I'm itching to write a D web newsreader as well. (You'll never make me use CGI though, mwahaha!) -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
On 14/11/2011 01:50, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter and I have been working on the website for a while. We want to crystallize a clear message of what the D programming language is. Please take a look at http://d-programming-language.org/new/. The work is content-only (no significant changes in style, though collapsible examples and twitter news are a new style element). Feedback is welcome. Thanks, Andrei Another point, partially based on things others have said that I've now read: As I mentioned in another post, myself (and many, many others I'm sure) have the ability to look at a page and automatically find what we want without reading anything. People visiting dpl.org will be in one of two groups: - Potential D users - D users What they want to see: = Potential D users i ) Sample code ii ) Reasons to use D iii) Download/try/setup links iv ) How to find out more = D users v ) Download links vi ) How to get help vii ) Language reference viii) Library reference ix ) News/things of interest x ) Current version (Do I have the latest and greatest? This will be less important as the language continues to mature) xi ) Changelog (see above, less important with time) xii ) How to get involved. This is a lot of information to get onto one page, but it can easily be simplified with a simple bit of knowledge - D users have seen the page before. Related note: I can't find any of these by looking at the D front page, despite having seen it hundreds of times (yes, I know most of it is in the sidebar, that's not something I see without thinking about it though, I automatically assume it's just part of the background). -- Robert http://octarineparrot.com/
Re: Website message overhaul
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:43:05 +0200, Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote: On 2011-11-14 21:09, Vladimir Panteleev wrote: Speaking of which, the twitter widget needs to be placed in an iframe so that it doesn't block the page load (inline scripts cause browsers to stop parsing the page until the script is loaded and executed, which creates a network dependency on a website we don't control). Put the JavaScript at the end of the page instead. The script writes its content during execution. Unless the Twitter JS supports writing to a specified element, it can't be at the end without CSS positioning hacks. -- Best regards, Vladimirmailto:vladi...@thecybershadow.net
Re: Website message overhaul
Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com wrote in message news:j9rqui$le5$1...@digitalmars.com... Just take the three main points: - Modern convenience - Multi-paradigm power - Native efficiency That's all mixed up. Either use use these three *qualifiers*: - Modern - Multi-paradigm - Native Yes, I like this change a lot. It's much clearer and easier to read. I can grok the latter at a mere glance, while the former I have to actually read and then think. Besides, I can draw my own conclusions as to what Modern, Multi-paradigm, and Native each imply, and they're all still explained in the text anyway.
