Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 09/03/2011 16:12, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 3/9/11, Bruno Medeirosbrunodomedeiros+spam@com.gmail wrote: but that requires compiling and using GDC, which apparently has a host of issues and problems as well; It doesn't have much building problems anymore. There's a couple of patches that need to be applied, but everything is described here: https://gist.github.com/857381 I've successfully used GDB as well. I pass the -g flag for debug symbols, and it works fine this way when loading the exe in GDB. I didn't mean problems with compiling GDC. I meant in terms of how mature and stable GDC is compared to DMD. From what I hear and understand, it has gotten much better, and it also easier to keep with DMD now. But it wasn't always the case, and it also not guaranteed that it will remain the case... -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Daniel Gibson Wrote: Am 14.03.2011 02:21, schrieb Nebster: On 12/03/2011 17:23, Daniel Gibson wrote: No reason to hate Tango. Ok, I don't really hate Tango, I just prefer Phobos because I got used to it first :) This is perfectly fine :) Just don't feed the trolls and don't let them provoke baseless insults ;) Looks liek Us have really raised teh bar. U can see how useless bikeshedding is almost gone and people really spend their short time improving D. D has matured thanks to trolling whenever idiotism wreaks havoc. I'd call it an Epic Success. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cott1200/temp/successful-troll.jpg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 12/03/2011 17:23, Daniel Gibson wrote: No reason to hate Tango. Ok, I don't really hate Tango, I just prefer Phobos because I got used to it first :)
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Am 14.03.2011 02:21, schrieb Nebster: On 12/03/2011 17:23, Daniel Gibson wrote: No reason to hate Tango. Ok, I don't really hate Tango, I just prefer Phobos because I got used to it first :) This is perfectly fine :) Just don't feed the trolls and don't let them provoke baseless insults ;)
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 11/03/2011 20:03, Gary Whatmore wrote: Nebster Wrote: On 10/03/2011 19:36, Trass3r wrote: How about adding more stuff to CTFE, esp. pointers and classes? Or get Algebraic data types to typecheck in the compiler :) Stop trolling. We should really ban these Tango fanboys here. Nobody really wants to turn D into an ivory tower hell with all the functional language features. Even bearophile was trolling recently. Why remembers the 'where' syntax. *Vomit* Nick S. is right, we should use HTML for our documents too. Maybe some stupid typography expert cares, but the majority (99%) of users don't. They've used to browsing broken HTML pages, DDOC is good enough for them. It has also shown potential as a general typesetting system for technical documentation in the digitalmars site. Haha, I hate tango . Phobos is better in my opinion (or I prefer it at least)! I just read in the documentation that it is a possible extension so I thought it would be a good Google Code project :P
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Am 12.03.2011 18:16, schrieb Nebster: On 11/03/2011 20:03, Gary Whatmore wrote: Nebster Wrote: On 10/03/2011 19:36, Trass3r wrote: How about adding more stuff to CTFE, esp. pointers and classes? Or get Algebraic data types to typecheck in the compiler :) Stop trolling. We should really ban these Tango fanboys here. Nobody really wants to turn D into an ivory tower hell with all the functional language features. Even bearophile was trolling recently. Why remembers the 'where' syntax. *Vomit* Nick S. is right, we should use HTML for our documents too. Maybe some stupid typography expert cares, but the majority (99%) of users don't. They've used to browsing broken HTML pages, DDOC is good enough for them. It has also shown potential as a general typesetting system for technical documentation in the digitalmars site. Haha, I hate tango . Come on, don't be an idiot. Gary is a troll, just ignore him. Phobos is better in my opinion (or I prefer it at least)! No reason to hate Tango. I just read in the documentation that it is a possible extension so I thought it would be a good Google Code project :P
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 10/03/2011 19:36, Trass3r wrote: How about adding more stuff to CTFE, esp. pointers and classes? Or get Algebraic data types to typecheck in the compiler :)
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Nebster Wrote: On 10/03/2011 19:36, Trass3r wrote: How about adding more stuff to CTFE, esp. pointers and classes? Or get Algebraic data types to typecheck in the compiler :) Stop trolling. We should really ban these Tango fanboys here. Nobody really wants to turn D into an ivory tower hell with all the functional language features. Even bearophile was trolling recently. Why remembers the 'where' syntax. *Vomit* Nick S. is right, we should use HTML for our documents too. Maybe some stupid typography expert cares, but the majority (99%) of users don't. They've used to browsing broken HTML pages, DDOC is good enough for them. It has also shown potential as a general typesetting system for technical documentation in the digitalmars site.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 23:16, Andrew Wiley wrote: On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Jacob Carlborgd...@me.com wrote: On 2011-03-09 11:11, Trass3r wrote: How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD. Too bad that's the general opinion people seem to have about GUI libraries. I don't understand what they don't like about DWT. BTW, I received a patch for DWT which makes it work with D2. Coming from the Java world, I'm a big fan of SWT because it's fast and native, and I started out using DWT, but I was frightened away when I realized that DWT contains a reimplementation of a significant portion of the Java standard library. It just seems like a decent UI framework for D shouldn't require another language's standard library to be ported over, but maybe I'm just critical. Where would I find DWT for D2? If the DWT code is as close as possible to the original SWT it's easier to merge future versions of SWT. DWT for D2 is currently not finished. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
How about adding more stuff to CTFE, esp. pointers and classes?
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 00:14, Daniel Gibson wrote: Am 08.03.2011 20:37, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Two (ok, maybe three) IDE related ideas: 1. integration of the profiler (use profilers output to directly jump to related sections in the code, mark time-intensive sections, stuff like that) 2. possibility to show assembly code from (de-)compiled executable inline in source so it's easier for developers who don't know much assembly language to understand how much machine code is generated by their code, possibly creating bottlenecks from harmless-looking statements etc. 3. Any work on IDEs should be for cross-platform IDEs, maybe eclipse DDT or codeblocks. Or maybe somebody could port D-IDE (d-ide.sf.net), which is pretty good as far as I know, to mono so it can be used on other platforms than windows? Wouldn't it be better to use a platform independent GUI library. (I post this here for discussion before inserting it in the wiki). Cheers, - Daniel -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/8/11 3:11 PM, Jens Mueller wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Great. I find all of the provided projects useful. Maybe one should add ZeroMQ to the bindings project. I haven't used it myself. But it seems useful. Before I change the wiki page I'd like to receive some feedback for some ideas. Somehow I think it's important to offer not too much. Just tell what's important for you and what you really miss in D. =Improved documentation= I think there should be a standard theme (like the one you find for Java; Candydoc is a good step in that direction) and unittests should be included in the documentation (http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2630). This is not much. Maybe more can be added. =Testing Framework= Building a testing framework on top of the available built-in unittests and assertions. Includes maybe also improving the built-in assert and build-in unittests (named unittests). Something like GoogleTest. =Logging Library= It was once on the list but it didn't lead to anything. Something like Google-glog. =Units Library= It was once on the list but it didn't lead to anything. Like Boost.Units. =Containers= What about better/more containers for std.container. Which? =std.sysinfo/core.cpuid= There is core.cpuid. I think it has no unittests which is bad. At least on Linux one could try parsing /proc/cpuinfo to have some tests. std.sysinfo would be an extension to core.cpuid providing system specific information that are not covered by core.cpuid. I'm going to write better descriptions in the wiki page if a project is considered interesting. Jens Of these I think logging, units, and containers would be good. I added those. Jens
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-08 20:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 03/09/2011 01:21 AM, Jens Mueller wrote: %u wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. Compare: I implemented a Garbage Collector for D that improved performance dramatically vs. I fixed bugs in the compiler. I do not think that fixing bugs is less demanding. Actually I do believe it's more difficult and it is fun. You know the feeling, when you finally understand what's the cause of the problem and when you know how to fix it properly. Do you have an idea for packaging fixing bugs in a way that makes it look more interesting? The real issue, I guess, is that fixing bugs (efficiently) require getting an intimate knowledge of the app. Denis -- _ vita es estrany spir.wikidot.com
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 03/09/2011 01:52 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/8/11 4:11 PM, %u wrote: Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ The funny thing is that sometimes it makes perfect sense, as benchmarks _do_ push the limits of, for instance, GC and may reveal a latent bug ;) Those are a very specific class of bugs -- bigger bugs like compiler errors with handling templates are completely unrelated to benchmarking, and they can be a deal breaker for many people. I don't think anyone cares about *speed* as much as *correctness*... would you rather have your 50% accurate program be twice as fast, or have your 100% accurate program be half as fast? In machine learning it's very common to trade off accuracy for speed. Accuracy is not correctness. A result can be inaccurate and correct inside a tolerance field, which is precisely one common path for machine learning. If the program were incorrect, the machine would not learn (what one expects it to learn). Denis -- _ vita es estrany spir.wikidot.com
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
spir wrote: On 03/09/2011 01:21 AM, Jens Mueller wrote: %u wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. Compare: I implemented a Garbage Collector for D that improved performance dramatically vs. I fixed bugs in the compiler. I do not think that fixing bugs is less demanding. Actually I do believe it's more difficult and it is fun. You know the feeling, when you finally understand what's the cause of the problem and when you know how to fix it properly. Do you have an idea for packaging fixing bugs in a way that makes it look more interesting? The real issue, I guess, is that fixing bugs (efficiently) require getting an intimate knowledge of the app. That is true. But I believe there are students who are amazingly good at this. Further there is always the mentor who can give advice and of course the community. If %u really likes fixing bugs and has enough time over summer he/she should submit it as a project. To attract more students for this kind of work one needs a good project description. That is what I find difficult. Jens
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 03/09/2011 10:57 AM, spir wrote: On 03/09/2011 01:52 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/8/11 4:11 PM, %u wrote: Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ The funny thing is that sometimes it makes perfect sense, as benchmarks _do_ push the limits of, for instance, GC and may reveal a latent bug ;) Those are a very specific class of bugs -- bigger bugs like compiler errors with handling templates are completely unrelated to benchmarking, and they can be a deal breaker for many people. I don't think anyone cares about *speed* as much as *correctness*... would you rather have your 50% accurate program be twice as fast, or have your 100% accurate program be half as fast? In machine learning it's very common to trade off accuracy for speed. Accuracy is not correctness. A result can be inaccurate and correct inside a tolerance field, which is precisely one common path for machine learning. If the program were incorrect, the machine would not learn (what one expects it to learn). Sorry, I was unclear. I meant inaccuracy and incorrectness can often two different notions, depending on the topic. Just like simplicity and difficulty. While people often mistake one for the other. Denis -- _ vita es estrany spir.wikidot.com
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 11:11, Trass3r wrote: How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD. Too bad that's the general opinion people seem to have about GUI libraries. I don't understand what they don't like about DWT. BTW, I received a patch for DWT which makes it work with D2. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 03/09/2011 11:46 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2011-03-09 11:11, Trass3r wrote: How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD. Too bad that's the general opinion people seem to have about GUI libraries. I don't understand what they don't like about DWT. I think the advantage of gtk or Qt is people can reinvest previous knowledge of the framework. (I mean, they are cross-language in addition to be cross-platform ;-) I would personly prefere a clearly designed D-specific GUI system than gtk's huge mess. (Dunno about Qt, people seem to find it far better designed, but recent events...) Denis -- _ vita es estrany spir.wikidot.com
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
I think the advantage of gtk or Qt is people can reinvest previous knowledge of the framework. (I mean, they are cross-language in addition to be cross-platform ;-) I would personly prefere a clearly designed D-specific GUI system than gtk's huge mess. (Dunno about Qt, people seem to find it far better designed, but recent events...) Denis There's something I absolutely ***HATE*** about Gtk, and it's the fact that the controls aren't real controls: The buttons don't fade the way they're supposed to in Windows 7, because they aren't even buttons in the first place. (They're just rectangles drawn to _look_ like buttons, but they fail at imitating them.) Maybe I'm OCD, but I just can't stand developing with Gtk. :(
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Am 09.03.2011 09:39, schrieb Jacob Carlborg: On 2011-03-09 00:14, Daniel Gibson wrote: Am 08.03.2011 20:37, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Two (ok, maybe three) IDE related ideas: 1. integration of the profiler (use profilers output to directly jump to related sections in the code, mark time-intensive sections, stuff like that) 2. possibility to show assembly code from (de-)compiled executable inline in source so it's easier for developers who don't know much assembly language to understand how much machine code is generated by their code, possibly creating bottlenecks from harmless-looking statements etc. 3. Any work on IDEs should be for cross-platform IDEs, maybe eclipse DDT or codeblocks. Or maybe somebody could port D-IDE (d-ide.sf.net), which is pretty good as far as I know, to mono so it can be used on other platforms than windows? Wouldn't it be better to use a platform independent GUI library. When starting from scratch - certainly. But if D-IDE should be improved/ported - which currently uses .Net - mono is probably the best choice (better than rewriting it completely). Or do you think it should be ported to Qyoto (Qt for C#) or GTK# or something like that for a more native look and feel? And if some other IDE should be improved (probably it should be discussed what specific IDE this should be anyway) then *please* improve a cross-platform IDE like eclipse DDT or codeblocks (and not, e.g. Visual D or Posedion, because those are only available on Windows anyway). Something else to consider: For improvements-of-existing-IDEs the current IDE developers should probably be involved as mentors. Cheers, - Daniel
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Am 09.03.2011 11:55, schrieb spir: On 03/09/2011 11:46 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2011-03-09 11:11, Trass3r wrote: How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD. Too bad that's the general opinion people seem to have about GUI libraries. I don't understand what they don't like about DWT. I think the advantage of gtk or Qt is people can reinvest previous knowledge of the framework. (I mean, they are cross-language in addition to be cross-platform ;-) I would personly prefere a clearly designed D-specific GUI system than gtk's huge mess. (Dunno about Qt, people seem to find it far better designed, but recent events...) Denis AFAIK DDT is modeled after (Java) SWT (used in eclipse). I'd love to see DWT improved, so it really works on all/most platforms that are supported by SWT, especially Linux i386/amd64 and OSX. (I haven't looked at DWT's homepage for some time and it currently seems to be down due to dsource issues). Cheers, - Daniel
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 08/03/2011 19:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei I've added two ideas in the IDE category, for Eclipse. (dunno why this NG message wasn't sent earlier) I was thinking if anything related to debugger integration could be added, but I suspect (from what I recall from my conversations with Ary a long time ago) that adding Eclipse support for debugger should be fairly easy (and particularly a lot of code might from Descent might be reusable, since this is not much related to semantic analysis). Instead, the greatest effort comes from debugger support itself. In Linux OSes the situation is fine, gdb works well, but in Windows things are not so good. There is the ddbg debugger but it is no longer maintained (I'm not sure how good it still is); there is Mago the Visual D debugger, but from what I understand it can't properly be used from the command line (and thus be integrated with other IDEs); and there's gdb for windows, but that requires compiling and using GDC, which apparently has a host of issues and problems as well; I wonder what is the best way to address these issues. I definitely hope the Windows platform doesn't further become a second-rate target for D development. -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 12:12, %u wrote: I think the advantage of gtk or Qt is people can reinvest previous knowledge of the framework. (I mean, they are cross-language in addition to be cross-platform ;-) I would personly prefere a clearly designed D-specific GUI system than gtk's huge mess. (Dunno about Qt, people seem to find it far better designed, but recent events...) Denis There's something I absolutely ***HATE*** about Gtk, and it's the fact that the controls aren't real controls: The buttons don't fade the way they're supposed to in Windows 7, because they aren't even buttons in the first place. (They're just rectangles drawn to _look_ like buttons, but they fail at imitating them.) I feel exactly the same. Maybe I'm OCD, but I just can't stand developing with Gtk. :( -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 11:55, spir wrote: On 03/09/2011 11:46 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2011-03-09 11:11, Trass3r wrote: How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD. Too bad that's the general opinion people seem to have about GUI libraries. I don't understand what they don't like about DWT. I think the advantage of gtk or Qt is people can reinvest previous knowledge of the framework. (I mean, they are cross-language in addition to be cross-platform ;-) I would personly prefere a clearly designed D-specific GUI system than gtk's huge mess. (Dunno about Qt, people seem to find it far better designed, but recent events...) Denis Since DWT is a port of SWT people can reinvest previous knowledge there as well. In fact, that's what I did. I can also add that Java is probably the language that most looks like D, syntactically. You don't have to learn some kind of object oriented wrapper that GtkD possibly uses. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 13:09, Daniel Gibson wrote: Am 09.03.2011 09:39, schrieb Jacob Carlborg: On 2011-03-09 00:14, Daniel Gibson wrote: Am 08.03.2011 20:37, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Two (ok, maybe three) IDE related ideas: 1. integration of the profiler (use profilers output to directly jump to related sections in the code, mark time-intensive sections, stuff like that) 2. possibility to show assembly code from (de-)compiled executable inline in source so it's easier for developers who don't know much assembly language to understand how much machine code is generated by their code, possibly creating bottlenecks from harmless-looking statements etc. 3. Any work on IDEs should be for cross-platform IDEs, maybe eclipse DDT or codeblocks. Or maybe somebody could port D-IDE (d-ide.sf.net), which is pretty good as far as I know, to mono so it can be used on other platforms than windows? Wouldn't it be better to use a platform independent GUI library. When starting from scratch - certainly. But if D-IDE should be improved/ported - which currently uses .Net - mono is probably the best choice (better than rewriting it completely). Or do you think it should be ported to Qyoto (Qt for C#) or GTK# or something like that for a more native look and feel? Sorry, I assumed it was written in D, don't why I got that from. And if some other IDE should be improved (probably it should be discussed what specific IDE this should be anyway) then *please* improve a cross-platform IDE like eclipse DDT or codeblocks (and not, e.g. Visual D or Posedion, because those are only available on Windows anyway). Something else to consider: For improvements-of-existing-IDEs the current IDE developers should probably be involved as mentors. Cheers, - Daniel -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 04:37:43 +0900, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Bindings to popular IPC/RPC protocols such as Protocol Buffers and Apache Thrift Key Skills: Intimate knowledge of cross-machine communication protocols. Large-scale programming using D requires bindings to cross-machine and cross-language communication protocols. Such include Google's Protocol Buffers, Apache Thrift, and others. D's standard library currently includes no such protocol implementation. Providing such would motivate adoption of D for large-scale development. Protocol Buffers and Thrift need code generation using IDL unlike MessagePack, BERT, etc. Such protocols are acceptable to Phobos?
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 13:30, Bruno Medeiros wrote: On 08/03/2011 19:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei I've added two ideas in the IDE category, for Eclipse. (dunno why this NG message wasn't sent earlier) I was thinking if anything related to debugger integration could be added, but I suspect (from what I recall from my conversations with Ary a long time ago) that adding Eclipse support for debugger should be fairly easy (and particularly a lot of code might from Descent might be reusable, since this is not much related to semantic analysis). Instead, the greatest effort comes from debugger support itself. In Linux OSes the situation is fine, gdb works well, but in Windows things are not so good. There is the ddbg debugger but it is no longer maintained (I'm not sure how good it still is); there is Mago the Visual D debugger, but from what I understand it can't properly be used from the command line (and thus be integrated with other IDEs); and there's gdb for windows, but that requires compiling and using GDC, which apparently has a host of issues and problems as well; I wonder what is the best way to address these issues. I definitely hope the Windows platform doesn't further become a second-rate target for D development. GDB doesn't work on Mac OS X as well as it does on Linux. Anything related to line number won't work. DMD still can't output the correct DWARF info on Mac OS X. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/9/11 1:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2011-03-08 20:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Ideally we'd get the authors of the respective libraries weigh in to assess what help they need. Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/9/11, Bruno Medeiros brunodomedeiros+spam@com.gmail wrote: but that requires compiling and using GDC, which apparently has a host of issues and problems as well; It doesn't have much building problems anymore. There's a couple of patches that need to be applied, but everything is described here: https://gist.github.com/857381 I've successfully used GDB as well. I pass the -g flag for debug symbols, and it works fine this way when loading the exe in GDB.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 04:37:43 +0900, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Networking I think high level networking is a part of IO. But unfortunately, Phobos does not have IO model. Does this idea include new IO model discussion?
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/9/11 7:34 AM, Masahiro Nakagawa wrote: On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 04:37:43 +0900, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Bindings to popular IPC/RPC protocols such as Protocol Buffers and Apache Thrift Key Skills: Intimate knowledge of cross-machine communication protocols.Large-scale programming using D requires bindings to cross-machine and cross-language communication protocols. Such include Google's Protocol Buffers, Apache Thrift, and others. D's standard library currently includes no such protocol implementation. Providing such would motivate adoption of D for large-scale development. Protocol Buffers and Thrift need code generation using IDL unlike MessagePack, BERT, etc. Such protocols are acceptable to Phobos? I'm not sure how to go about the IDL compilers themselves. What I can do is to try to add D generation to Thrift if someone implements it. Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 2011-03-09 17:00, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/9/11 1:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2011-03-08 20:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Ideally we'd get the authors of the respective libraries weigh in to assess what help they need. Andrei For DWT I can answer that: * Finish porting to D2 (I've received a patch that does this, not applied yet) * Finish the Mac OS X port and merge it with the DWT2 repository * Update to later versions of SWT * Port 64bit versions of SWT (probably we want to merge the 32bit and 64bit ports) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas I did some research on Protocol Buffers. I found https://256.makerslocal.org/wiki/index.php/ProtocolBuffer Further it seems that Google encourages writing a plugin for their compiler (http://code.google.com/apis/protocolbuffers/docs/reference/other.html). Maybe the above project can be adapted. Because a plugin has to read a special request from stdin and output a special response to stdout. Jens
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote: On 2011-03-09 11:11, Trass3r wrote: How about a GUI library. Probably helping with an already existing one, DWT for example. Good idea, but rather improve GtkD or QtD. Too bad that's the general opinion people seem to have about GUI libraries. I don't understand what they don't like about DWT. BTW, I received a patch for DWT which makes it work with D2. Coming from the Java world, I'm a big fan of SWT because it's fast and native, and I started out using DWT, but I was frightened away when I realized that DWT contains a reimplementation of a significant portion of the Java standard library. It just seems like a decent UI framework for D shouldn't require another language's standard library to be ported over, but maybe I'm just critical. Where would I find DWT for D2?
Google Summer of Code 2011 application
I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: Great! Maybe a proper tool to convert C/C++ to D? Most importantly header files with a correct translation of constness, conditional compilation etc., but partial automation of C++ source code translation (merging method implementations into one class declaration and so on) could also be nice. Perhaps basing on http://dsource.org/projects/visuald/browser/trunk/c2d
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Andrei Alexandrescu napisał: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Please throw in database interfacing. Does putting up XML mean I should stop working on it? -- Tomek
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/2011 1:23 PM, Tomek Sowiński wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu napisał: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Please throw in database interfacing. The wiki is user edittable! Add what you want. Does putting up XML mean I should stop working on it? No. It's a long time until summer.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/11 1:23 PM, Tomek Sowiński wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu napisał: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Please throw in database interfacing. Does putting up XML mean I should stop working on it? No, but it does mean you should change the wiki to mention the status of the undergoing project and flesh out how you could be helped. If you are reasonably confident you have it under control and ready to pass scrutiny, feel free to delete that section. Thanks, Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 08/03/2011 19:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Hum, is it important to flesh these out before the deadline for applying to be a mentoring organization (11th of March)? -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/11 2:35 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote: On 08/03/2011 19:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Hum, is it important to flesh these out before the deadline for applying to be a mentoring organization (11th of March)? The document is an evolving entity, but the better it is before the deadline, the more chances we have to secure admission. Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Great. I find all of the provided projects useful. Maybe one should add ZeroMQ to the bindings project. I haven't used it myself. But it seems useful. Before I change the wiki page I'd like to receive some feedback for some ideas. Somehow I think it's important to offer not too much. Just tell what's important for you and what you really miss in D. =Improved documentation= I think there should be a standard theme (like the one you find for Java; Candydoc is a good step in that direction) and unittests should be included in the documentation (http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2630). This is not much. Maybe more can be added. =Testing Framework= Building a testing framework on top of the available built-in unittests and assertions. Includes maybe also improving the built-in assert and build-in unittests (named unittests). Something like GoogleTest. =Logging Library= It was once on the list but it didn't lead to anything. Something like Google-glog. =Units Library= It was once on the list but it didn't lead to anything. Like Boost.Units. =Containers= What about better/more containers for std.container. Which? =std.sysinfo/core.cpuid= There is core.cpuid. I think it has no unittests which is bad. At least on Linux one could try parsing /proc/cpuinfo to have some tests. std.sysinfo would be an extension to core.cpuid providing system specific information that are not covered by core.cpuid. I'm going to write better descriptions in the wiki page if a project is considered interesting. Jens
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Am 08.03.2011 20:37, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Two (ok, maybe three) IDE related ideas: 1. integration of the profiler (use profilers output to directly jump to related sections in the code, mark time-intensive sections, stuff like that) 2. possibility to show assembly code from (de-)compiled executable inline in source so it's easier for developers who don't know much assembly language to understand how much machine code is generated by their code, possibly creating bottlenecks from harmless-looking statements etc. 3. Any work on IDEs should be for cross-platform IDEs, maybe eclipse DDT or codeblocks. Or maybe somebody could port D-IDE (d-ide.sf.net), which is pretty good as far as I know, to mono so it can be used on other platforms than windows? (I post this here for discussion before inserting it in the wiki). Cheers, - Daniel
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 09.03.2011 2:50, %u wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ The funny thing is that sometimes it makes perfect sense, as benchmarks _do_ push the limits of, for instance, GC and may reveal a latent bug ;) -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ The funny thing is that sometimes it makes perfect sense, as benchmarks _do_ push the limits of, for instance, GC and may reveal a latent bug ;) Those are a very specific class of bugs -- bigger bugs like compiler errors with handling templates are completely unrelated to benchmarking, and they can be a deal breaker for many people. I don't think anyone cares about *speed* as much as *correctness*... would you rather have your 50% accurate program be twice as fast, or have your 100% accurate program be half as fast?
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 08/03/2011 23:07, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/8/11 2:35 PM, Bruno Medeiros wrote: On 08/03/2011 19:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Hum, is it important to flesh these out before the deadline for applying to be a mentoring organization (11th of March)? The document is an evolving entity, but the better it is before the deadline, the more chances we have to secure admission. Andrei Hum, I guess that counts as important then. -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 03/08/2011 08:37 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Added topic D tools in D. Denis -- _ vita es estrany spir.wikidot.com
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/11 3:11 PM, Jens Mueller wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Great. I find all of the provided projects useful. Maybe one should add ZeroMQ to the bindings project. I haven't used it myself. But it seems useful. Before I change the wiki page I'd like to receive some feedback for some ideas. Somehow I think it's important to offer not too much. Just tell what's important for you and what you really miss in D. =Improved documentation= I think there should be a standard theme (like the one you find for Java; Candydoc is a good step in that direction) and unittests should be included in the documentation (http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2630). This is not much. Maybe more can be added. =Testing Framework= Building a testing framework on top of the available built-in unittests and assertions. Includes maybe also improving the built-in assert and build-in unittests (named unittests). Something like GoogleTest. =Logging Library= It was once on the list but it didn't lead to anything. Something like Google-glog. =Units Library= It was once on the list but it didn't lead to anything. Like Boost.Units. =Containers= What about better/more containers for std.container. Which? =std.sysinfo/core.cpuid= There is core.cpuid. I think it has no unittests which is bad. At least on Linux one could try parsing /proc/cpuinfo to have some tests. std.sysinfo would be an extension to core.cpuid providing system specific information that are not covered by core.cpuid. I'm going to write better descriptions in the wiki page if a project is considered interesting. Jens Of these I think logging, units, and containers would be good. Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
%u wrote: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. Compare: I implemented a Garbage Collector for D that improved performance dramatically vs. I fixed bugs in the compiler. I do not think that fixing bugs is less demanding. Actually I do believe it's more difficult and it is fun. You know the feeling, when you finally understand what's the cause of the problem and when you know how to fix it properly. Do you have an idea for packaging fixing bugs in a way that makes it look more interesting? Jens
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Am 09.03.2011 00:50, schrieb %u: I just submitted an application for GSoC 2011 on behalf of Digital Mars. Please review and contribute to the project ideas page: http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?GSOC_2011_Ideas Thanks, Andrei Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ I don't know if 3 months(?) are enough time to become acquainted with the compiler *and* do something useful with that knowledge.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. Compare: I implemented a Garbage Collector for D that improved performance dramatically vs. I fixed bugs in the compiler. I do not think that fixing bugs is less demanding. Actually I do believe it's more difficult and it is fun. You know the feeling, when you finally understand what's the cause of the problem and when you know how to fix it properly. Do you have an idea for packaging fixing bugs in a way that makes it look more interesting? 100% agree. :) I'm a student myself and I'm really considering GSoC for D, but from my own perspective I'd only do it if I could fix bugs in the compiler -- *that* is what I truly enjoy doing (since I really want to help D become more popular), and _not_ timing the application's performance. Benchmarking would just be like mopping the floor for me... it's important in its own right, but I'm not sure if college students would actually enjoy doing it; I certainly wouldn't. (Personally, I think *THE* most important factor that's hindering the adoption of D are the compiler bugs, _not_ performance. If people can't write correct code, they wouldn't even give a second thought to optimizations; I think putting workforce toward optimization is a bit premature at this moment.)
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/11 4:11 PM, %u wrote: Uh... how helping fix compiler bugs? Could we help with that? I feel that's *much* more important than benchmarking, for instance, since it doesn't make sense to benchmark something if it has bugs. :\ The funny thing is that sometimes it makes perfect sense, as benchmarks _do_ push the limits of, for instance, GC and may reveal a latent bug ;) Those are a very specific class of bugs -- bigger bugs like compiler errors with handling templates are completely unrelated to benchmarking, and they can be a deal breaker for many people. I don't think anyone cares about *speed* as much as *correctness*... would you rather have your 50% accurate program be twice as fast, or have your 100% accurate program be half as fast? In machine learning it's very common to trade off accuracy for speed. Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 09/03/2011 00:21, Jens Mueller wrote: I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. And I wouldn't be surprised if Google as well is also more likely to accepted feature-oriented projects than bug-fix ones. -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
In machine learning it's very common to trade off accuracy for speed. Andrei Er... do you _honestly_ think people will start writing machine learning programs in D, when we're even having trouble getting them to use D for more typical applications (because of bugs)? Also, I (obviously) used the word accuracy to mean predictability, not approximation. If you can't predict whether your program is multiplying the result by zero or by one (because of a lambda template bug in the compiler), that's quite different from having inaccurate floating-point implementations that change the number 1.000 to 0.998. People using D for machine learning might tolerate the latter, but I doubt they can tolerate the former...
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. And I wouldn't be surprised if Google as well is also more likely to accepted feature-oriented projects than bug-fix ones. Wait, I think I'm confused -- which ones are feature-oriented projects and which ones aren't? I'm only a single voice, but for my student perspective, I frankly wouldn't waste my time joining a benchmarking project; however, I would definitely consider helping get the compiler bugs fixed. After all, if it's open-source, then students should be able to help contribute, right? What's the point of restricting the compiler work to beyond their reach, especially if that's what needs some of the most help in and especially if they might be more interested in it?
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On Tuesday 08 March 2011 20:34:00 %u wrote: I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. And I wouldn't be surprised if Google as well is also more likely to accepted feature-oriented projects than bug-fix ones. Wait, I think I'm confused -- which ones are feature-oriented projects and which ones aren't? I'm only a single voice, but for my student perspective, I frankly wouldn't waste my time joining a benchmarking project; however, I would definitely consider helping get the compiler bugs fixed. After all, if it's open-source, then students should be able to help contribute, right? What's the point of restricting the compiler work to beyond their reach, especially if that's what needs some of the most help in and especially if they might be more interested in it? The compiler is just one component. druntime and Phobos are part of it as well. A good example of a feature-oriented project for druntime would be working on the GC. For Phobos, stuff like a logging module or an xml module would be good examples of feature-oriented projects. They're tasks to implement or significantly improve a specific feature, not work on general bugs. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/2011 8:34 PM, %u wrote: I have the same feeling. I'd like to see such projects. But I believe students are more likely to pick feature-oriented projects. The stuff that sounds cool. And I wouldn't be surprised if Google as well is also more likely to accepted feature-oriented projects than bug-fix ones. Wait, I think I'm confused -- which ones are feature-oriented projects and which ones aren't? I'm only a single voice, but for my student perspective, I frankly wouldn't waste my time joining a benchmarking project; however, I would definitely consider helping get the compiler bugs fixed. After all, if it's open-source, then students should be able to help contribute, right? What's the point of restricting the compiler work to beyond their reach, especially if that's what needs some of the most help in and especially if they might be more interested in it? Out of curiosity, what's stopping you from helping fix bugs right now? I agree that being paid for it adds motivation, but if it's something you want to do, do it.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
On 3/8/11 8:30 PM, %u wrote: In machine learning it's very common to trade off accuracy for speed. Andrei Er... do you _honestly_ think people will start writing machine learning programs in D, when we're even having trouble getting them to use D for more typical applications (because of bugs)? Yes. I've already written a ton of ML code in D. I predict actually that D will be a prime language for ML - it has quite what it takes. Also, I (obviously) used the word accuracy to mean predictability, not approximation. Then you were being inaccurate :o). Andrei
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Also, I (obviously) used the word accuracy to mean predictability, not approximation. Then you were being inaccurate :o). Andrei I thought the meaning was predictable. :P
Re: Google Summer of Code 2011 application
Out of curiosity, what's stopping you from helping fix bugs right now? I agree that being paid for it adds motivation, but if it's something you want to do, do it. Great question! :) Right now? The fact that I'm in school and have other things to do. :( During the summer? The fact that I might have an internship or something else to do. :\ If I have time, though, I'll definitely give it a shot! :)
