Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
Not the moderator, but my comments are below. Erik KI4HMS/7 Roger J. Buffington wrote: What does any of this have to do with digital radio? Mr. Moderator, why Perhaps because digital modes usually require the use of computers? Though I do agree the school yard king if the hill stuff gets real old real quick. is this thread, which has nothing to do with amateur radio, let alone digital radio, permitted, whereas threads dealing with the legality/illegality of modes and the new regs, are not? Perhaps because we spun of a dedicated and separate group to contain the mostly American political discussions? de Roger W6VZV
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA wrote: Roger, All of these things have a LOT to do with digital operation. The rules, the modes, the operating systems and programs are all a vital part. Sorry, I disagree. You could transplant this Windows v. Linux thread into the photography and other groups that I belong to and no one would know the difference. This tiresome subject comes up in almost every technical Yahoo group to which I belong, and has been removed from most of them. This group was supposed to be about digital communications, not purely computer issues. If it is going to turn into a computer OS forum, then I guess we might as well find out. de Roger W6VZV
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
Totally Off subject, but every time I try to do a reply, because of all the @[EMAIL PROTECTED]* add's on the right hand side of the message, it is impossible to get my text in the right place. is there any way of getting rid of those adds'?? Kevin VK5OA
RE: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
From: Michael P. Brininstool [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/11/29 Wed AM 10:12:23 CST To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!! From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin O'Rorke Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:47 PM To:digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!! Seriously, until Linux programs can be installed as easily and reliably as Windows programs (I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD AN INSTALLATION PROBLEM IN WIN) then Linux has not a dogs chance in Hell of competing with Windows. I enjoy the challenge of fighting with Linux and consider myself an apprentice geek in that realm, but really what John I personally have never had *any* problems installing things I want to run in Linux. I am not married to any windows applications either though. There are Linux alternatives for nearly every windows solution out there, to include programs that I want to use with my radios. My personal experience has been that M$ has far less support for older hardware and it is much harder to find drivers. It always amuses me that somehow it is ok to hunt for 5 hours for a windows driver that only works half right but it's not ok to have to spend 10 minutes looking at a *nix log and changing a config file, goofy. The problem isn't that Linux is hard to use it is that people have significant mindshare built up in becomeing windows experts and are unwilling to go through the process again for Linux.
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
It always amuses me that somehow it is ok to hunt for 5 hours for a windows driver that only works half right but it's not ok to have to spend 10 minutes looking at a *nix log and changing a config file, goofy. The problem isn't that Linux is hard to use it is that people have significant mindshare built up in becomeing windows experts and are unwilling to go through the process again for Linux. First I am not a big fan of Windows and especially Billy Gates who steals everybody's ideas because he has the money and can. He just pays the antitrust fines or whatever meantime the poor bloke that came up with the idea/software goes in the poor house. Short version! But I never had to spent 5 hours looking for a windows driver but I have spent days trying to get a new version of a Linux program to work because of one missing dependency outta a dozen you need to install. I've spent 10 times as much time learning Linux with a fraction of the success as I have Windows. And if you go to a Linux forum and ask a question all you get is RTFM, doesn't matter that I have read a dozen of them or that yes I do have the answer in one of my MANY Linux books but really don't want to spend days figuring out which book it is in when some Linux guru could tell me in 39 seconds where I went wrong. I'll stick to Windows since it works 99% of the time with a 1000% less hassle. I don't want to be a Windows or a Linux guru I just want an OS that works with as little hassle as possible. A system that'll let me install the software I want without spending days chasing a rare dependency. Later Brad N1NPK
RE: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
Are you referring to ham radio applications or other more normal applications? I haven't had any problems with normal/regular Linux programs and even many ham radio programs...but I'll admit that some of the ham radio progrmas take a lot of work to get them loaded correctly and running correctly. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Michael P. Brininstool Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:12 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!! From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin O'Rorke Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:47 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!! Seriously, until Linux programs can be installed as easily and reliably as Windows programs (I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD AN INSTALLATION PROBLEM IN WIN) then Linux has not a dogs chance in Hell of competing with Windows. I enjoy the challenge of fighting with Linux and consider myself an apprentice geek in that realm, but really what John says is, unfortunately true. . I have been using *NIX since 1986 (before Windows) and have never like Windows. The installation problem to which you refer will probably never be fixed in Linux. That is because, to do so, means standardizing distros and configs --something die-hard *NIX fans will not stand for. The reason I prefer *NIX is that I can have it my way. The analogy I like to use is this: You go in the the M$ (MicroSoft) restaurant and sit down, the waiter brings out your meal. You do not have a choice in what to order, or how it is prepared, just how many copies of the meal. I go into the *NIX restaurant, and talk to the cattle barron, and negotiate which cow he will let me purchase and for how much. He then hands me a butcher knife and sends me into the field. As much as I do not want to have to butcher my own meat, if that is the only way to get beef instead of the mystery meat of the year, and get it cooked to my specifications, then I will do it that way. Pre-packaged distros are just paying someone to butcher and wrap the meat for you. The problem I see, is that Linux interfaces are trying to become M$ Windows, and are starting to lose their original appeal.
RE: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
Way back when, Debian tried to solve this by being the Ham Friendly distro and most ham programmers used Debian. Today programmers like one distro or another and don't generally tell you what distro they used. If they do, then you might want to use that distro. The problem is, as you have noted, is that various programmers use different distros. I believe the solution is for programmers and/or Beta testers, to try out the program on other distros than what the programmer used and report want additional libraries will be required for a specific distribution. I have also found that even between various releases of the same distributions that the library requirements change. This was suppose to be solved by making a program install using RPMs...all the libraries (dependencies) were there. But not everyone uses RPMs...they use something newer. I encourage all Linux programmers of amateur radio applications to list all the dependencies needed and specify the distro and release of the distro that they used. I also encourage the programmers to ask Beta testers to try their applications on various common distros and list any additional dependencies needed and the URL to the dependency. Over the years, I have been more than satisfied with Linux (since kernel 0.98a) but have been frustrated with adding dependencies. I work in a MS world and everything I have to go through to keep MS client and servers up-to-date and running I will NOT tolerate at home where I use the computer for FUN. 73, Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin O'Rorke Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 6:47 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!! JOHN said I have this mental picture of linux users hunched over their computers, eyes red and glazed , looking for WMD (What Microsoft Did), toiling for hours to make unsupported software run. Sorry Guys, I'm with Bill Gates, he developed an operating system that mostly works, and let's me get on with chasing DX instead of trying to make it work. If he happened to be very rich doing this, good on him!!! John VE5MU I am one of those interested in Linux , and have reached the stage where I know my way around it fairly well, I have experimented with a variety of distro's,.and they are mostly a superb replacement for Win in the ordinary Home or Office environment, BUT the biggest problem with Linux for the ham or experimenter is the installation of programs. You download a program, and attempt to install it. You get a message that you need such and such a thing (library or whatever). You go on the Internet, download that, go to install that, get another message you need x, you get x, go to install it and get a message you need version y of x, you attempt to find version y and cant find it. At this stage you give up, have three triple brandy's, and fire up Windows! I know some geeks out there will say get a pre-compiled version. You cannot find one for your distro, or not one at all. Seriously, until Linux programs can be installed as easily and reliably as Windows programs (I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD AN INSTALLATION PROBLEM IN WIN) then Linux has not a dogs chance in Hell of competing with Windows. I enjoy the challenge of fighting with Linux and consider myself an apprentice geek in that realm, but really what John says is, unfortunately true. Kevin VK5OA PS. I am aware of Harvs Hamshack Hack, and have it. Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
CUltist! ...Sorry John, I missed something. I don't even know the prayer yet or the secret handshake. if its gotta be a religious argument. keep in mind that a cult is the first step toward legitimacy. I speak as both a user and as a former tech at a Help Desk in a 99% windows shop. I used to work for a large university hospital. The last thing most ISP's are interested in is Service. Their pimary function is collecting money. from an illiterate an unsuspecting public. Training help is a lot more expensive than promoting mythology and forcing users to bear an unnecessary expense. for most ISP's the Help desk is an expense item ... not a revenue item. most ISP's are consumed with MS Marketing hype and FUD. IF MS makes such great stuff, how-cum I gotta buy symantic or norton to keep it safe and running? how-cum nearly all of the internet runs on linux and bsd servers? we're never hunched ove our computers trying to make stuff run. it usually runs with less effort than windows requires. no red eyes. we don't have to read or react to those constant virus warnings. we don't have to be affraid to open an email attachment. I don't claim immunity only less vunerability. 73, lets quit this thread and get on the air where we can have some fun. Harv On 11/28/06, John Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hmm I didn't think linux was a cult until now!!! some things you must be prepared to deal with if the help desk at you ISP knows you are running Linux, they will treat you like a leper. They will tell you that you MUST run Windows and buy their over priced modems.(check if they can accomodate you. only if we (linux users)start demanding equal service will they provide it. this is my experience with Charter cable and Centurytel DSL. (I encourage all hams to avoid these two outfitsfor your ISP needs, if at all possible). These help desks places are largely Windows only operations. and LINUX users scare the B-Jesus out of 'em. I think they fear us cuz we know something they don't. 1) it really isn't necessary to pay the Microsoft Tax to make your computer run. Then, once you have it running, you don't have to pay the secondary taxes to symantic and vandals.which your MS sytem largely promotes and encourages. I have this mental picture of linux users hunched over their computers, eyes red and glazed , looking for WMD (What Microsoft Did), toiling for hours to make unsupported software run. Sorry Guys, I'm with Bill Gates, he developed an operating system that mostly works, and let's me get on with chasing DX instead of trying to make it work. If he happened to be very rich doing this, good on him!!! John VE5MU
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
JOHN said I have this mental picture of linux users hunched over their computers, eyes red and glazed , looking for WMD (What Microsoft Did), toiling for hours to make unsupported software run. Sorry Guys, I'm with Bill Gates, he developed an operating system that mostly works, and let's me get on with chasing DX instead of trying to make it work. If he happened to be very rich doing this, good on him!!! John VE5MU I am one of those interested in Linux , and have reached the stage where I know my way around it fairly well, I have experimented with a variety of distro's,.and they are mostly a superb replacement for Win in the ordinary Home or Office environment, BUT the biggest problem with Linux for the ham or experimenter is the installation of programs. You download a program, and attempt to install it. You get a message that you need such and such a thing (library or whatever). You go on the Internet, download that, go to install that, get another message you need x, you get x, go to install it and get a message you need version y of x, you attempt to find version y and cant find it. At this stage you give up, have three triple brandy's, and fire up Windows! I know some geeks out there will say get a pre-compiled version. You cannot find one for your distro, or not one at all. Seriously, until Linux programs can be installed as easily and reliably as Windows programs (I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD AN INSTALLATION PROBLEM IN WIN) then Linux has not a dogs chance in Hell of competing with Windows. I enjoy the challenge of fighting with Linux and consider myself an apprentice geek in that realm, but really what John says is, unfortunately true. Kevin VK5OA PS. I am aware of Harvs Hamshack Hack, and have it.
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
Hi to all on the Group! Just like Kevin put it! I've tried mty way aound several distros of linux, and stumbled on the same problems, installation, libraries and the rest. For the moment I have SuSe 10 installed on another disk of my main computer it works allright, network and dsl setup was a breeze. Ham software not (yet) installed because of the above issues, but on the second half of December i'll be on vacation and give it (another) try. Regards On 11/29/06, Kevin O'Rorke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JOHN said I have this mental picture of linux users hunched over their computers, eyes red and glazed , looking for WMD (What Microsoft Did), toiling for hours to make unsupported software run. Sorry Guys, I'm with Bill Gates, he developed an operating system that mostly works, and let's me get on with chasing DX instead of trying to make it work. If he happened to be very rich doing this, good on him!!! John VE5MU I am one of those interested in Linux , and have reached the stage where I know my way around it fairly well, I have experimented with a variety of distro's,.and they are mostly a superb replacement for Win in the ordinary Home or Office environment, BUT the biggest problem with Linux for the ham or experimenter is the installation of programs. You download a program, and attempt to install it. You get a message that you need such and such a thing (library or whatever). You go on the Internet, download that, go to install that, get another message you need x, you get x, go to install it and get a message you need version y of x, you attempt to find version y and cant find it. At this stage you give up, have three triple brandy's, and fire up Windows! I know some geeks out there will say get a pre-compiled version. You cannot find one for your distro, or not one at all. Seriously, until Linux programs can be installed as easily and reliably as Windows programs (I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD AN INSTALLATION PROBLEM IN WIN) then Linux has not a dogs chance in Hell of competing with Windows. I enjoy the challenge of fighting with Linux and consider myself an apprentice geek in that realm, but really what John says is, unfortunately true. Kevin VK5OA PS. I am aware of Harvs Hamshack Hack, and have it. Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Yahoo! Groups Links -- Cumprimentos Salomão Fresco CT2IRJ If it works... dont fix it!
Re: [digitalradio] Linux versis Windows: Let the debate begin!!
John, I run one of each in my shack - Windows XP for VHF APRS AGWPE/UI-View and Linux for HF fldigi. That way I get to run the best-of-breed software on each, and get to make use of my available sound cards and serial ports. The linux box is very quiet RF-wise on HF. I install my debian systems from a Knoppix live cd (use 3.9 - it is good) and then update the machine over my ADSL - I can have a box built and fully patched in about an hour - at which time it is ready for years of service with virtually zero maintenance. I think Harv's hamshack is based on knoppix - I expect that a hard disk install of that would be possible also. I am a believer in the philosophy of doing the simplest thing that will work. Sometimes, Windows is the simplest thing - and sometimes it is linux. Why not have both? Hook them all up with Ethernet and Wifi and you can have a home network that puts most small-business computer systems to shame. hi hi. 73 de Brett VK2TMG
