Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
On Mar 20, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Todd Diemer wrote: Jeff G. and Jerome R. have a good point here about a continuous save, snapshot save, or checkpoints. Could we remove the save button completely if these checkpoints were constantly saved ala Gmail or other apps that save drafts on a regular basis. The user would then only be required to set a period between which they want saves to occur. Except checkpoint versions are wanted after significant actions, or at the end of work periods, which don't have any direct connection with set time periods. And in fact, people should generally want a finite, controllable number of checkpoint versions, rather than (say) six new ones per work day, which could get out of hand on a lengthy project. And checkpoint versions aren't of much use unless they are annotated so the user knows what he's rolling back to. The user still needs to control the big stage points manually. These would work as intermediate generic checkpoints, though -- super autosaves, as it were -- to free users from the need to make checkpoint versions at less important stages. You'd presumably erase them at the next manual checkpoint. -- Jim Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Jeff G. and Jerome R. have a good point here about a continuous save, snapshot save, or checkpoints. Could we remove the save button completely if these checkpoints were constantly saved ala Gmail or other apps that save drafts on a regular basis. The user would then only be required to set a period between which they want saves to occur. To revert back to older versions the user would view an interactive timeline showing previews of their different With the amount of computing power and disk space these days the limitation here seems to be user culture and interface design. Going back to the original question though with our mental model how it is, how about replacing the icon of a disk with an icon of a icon of a box/briefcase/shelf that has paper files going into it? When items have been successfully saved the object will close. The idea being that instead of saving it to a disk you are in essence, putting the object away in a safe place. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
the floppy icon is a metaphor like the email inbox. I doubt many people who use email know it is a metaphor. The 'in box' has all but vanished. To the point where I've considered not calling things that resemble a REAL in box in my applications an in box. In Pile, or various other names are better, as people no longer think in box when they see inbox. There is a lot to suggest that what an icon resembles isn't relevant. The consistency of everyone using a 3.5 floppy is a better option than changing it to something more obvious, because the picture only helps you learn what something means once or twice. Saving is so common, and the icon so ubiquitous that only a complete novice to computers doesn't know what the icon means. And those people will have a much harder time with the CONCEPT of saving, than the struggle with the icon. I do agree, however, that saving should go away. it is out dated and only hardened computer elites want the mechanic. A snapshot has been already mentioned in this thread, and that is a far better option than the saving mechanic. I'd also like to see the file system die. auto-save, proper document naming, and intelligent meta-data usage can fully replace both saving and the file system. If done right, no one will ever miss it. But so long as a save icon need exist, a 3.5 floppy it should remain. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
The need to do an explicit save remains, to create "checkpoint" versions. There us mental training to do with that, but not as much as with "no saving needed". Something other than the current imagery is needed for that though. -- Jim Via my iPhone On Mar 20, 2009, at 12:48 PM, "Jerome Ryckborst" wrote: One way to handle this would be to remove the icon along with the need to save. If that could be done, I bet that would unnerve many users, though. -- Jerome Ryckborst, CUA | UPA member | AIA member | http://FiveSketches.com -- Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
I seem to remember some software that had the metaphor of a 'snapshot', with a camera icon, that would save these reference versions (although I don't think it was replacing save, but rather providing another option. The concept of a snapshot in time is not that big a stretch. -- David Drucker Vancouver, BC da...@drucker.ca On 20-Mar-09, at 1:47 PM, Jim Drew wrote: The need to do an explicit save remains, to create "checkpoint" versions. There us mental training to do with that, but not as much as with "no saving needed". Something other than the current imagery is needed for that though. -- Jim Via my iPhone On Mar 20, 2009, at 12:48 PM, "Jerome Ryckborst" wrote: One way to handle this would be to remove the icon along with the need to save. If that could be done, I bet that would unnerve many users, though. -- Jerome Ryckborst, CUA | UPA member | AIA member | http://FiveSketches.com -- Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
One way to handle this would be to remove the icon along with the need to save. If that could be done, I bet that would unnerve many users, though. -- Jerome Ryckborst, CUA | UPA member | AIA member | http://FiveSketches.com -- Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Over time, the original literal meaning of a symbol can be quite forgotten, provided that eveyone knows its symbolic meaning. It's normal. We can see this in our own alphabet. For example, most of us are oblivious to the fact that the letter "K" was originally a picture of a hand, or that "N" was a snake. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Jake Trimble wrote:
Has anyone seen any attempts to replace the standard floppy disk Save
icon? Seeing as most people haven't touched a 3.5" floppy in a decade,
is anyone addressing this archaic icon and how we can replace the
current mental model associated with it?
I noticed this exact problem a few days ago, too.
There are two problems here:
(1) You're describing an action with a object. ("Save" = "Diskette")
And since the object in common use for the action has significantly
changed, it no longer logically works to use the old one.
(2) You're dealing with a slowly obsoleting action. "Save" is an
artifact of when we couldn't reliably autosave each action.
What you really need, then, is (a) a modern action to reflect what is
really being done (such as "Save Version"), and (b) iconography to
reflect *that* action.
A decade ago, I tested an app that compiled HTML code into a binary
format, and it had a "Run" command (which didn't actually "run"
anything, note a problem right there). The button icon? A bright red/
orange phoon. In an app aimed at Enterprise and Military customers.
The marketing manager was a bit miffed when I complained about the
icon and how it looked like a Dr. Seuss character -- "We paid a lot of
money for those icons" "You should have paid more" -- but she came
around when I walked her through it: you had to deduce that the icon
was supposed to be a person, then that it was a person running, then
that the command was Run, and then what the Run command would do; you
effectively had to decipher a pun in the process. I think they
changed it to an arrow or even just the word Run (since the app wasn't
localized).
(Phoon? http://www.phoons.com/)
-- Jim
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Alan Cooper talks about this at length in About Face (chapter 17 is "Rethinking Files and Save"). Regards, Adam On Mar 19, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Coryndon Luxmoore wrote: Strictly speaking save as a function is a holdover from the day that computers were not capable of retaining a running list of all edits and storing them in real time. So in my mind the question is if we remove the need to save a file how do I mark a significant point in the creation of a file? --C Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Dead technologies live on in symbols. Get used to it! Seriously, here in Australia I see pictograms of a castle keep to signify to tourists a historic site - our country is not old enough to have real castles, but this european symbol tells international travelers that something of historic interest is ahead. Or how about the steam train icon before a level crossing. People know they aren't likely to see an actual train - it is just that the icon is recognisable to the majority of the general public. Final icon was one that perplexed me on my first to europe - the constant use of a round horn to signify postal services. As an Australian I had no concept of why that symbol was associated with the mail, but traveling from country to country with only english and bad italian as my methods of communication, it was comforting to know I could find a post office anywhere I went - I just needed to spot the symbol. I used to teach graphic design and one of the early projects put to my students was to remove all of the text labels, such as "telephone", "fax", "e-mail", "mobile" etc. in front of the contact details on a common business card and replace them with appropriate symbols. One thing I noticed was it was very hard for first year students to drag themselves away from the envelope as a component of the e-mail icon, even though these students live in the electronic world and send far more e-mails than postal letters. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Has anyone ever eulogized a metaphor before? Sounds fun enough. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Another approach would be to replace the "save" metaphor with a "checkpoint" (I'm not wild about that word, but it'll work for now). The system would save continuously, and whenever you wanted to note a significant revision, you'd click "checkpoint". The app would let you add notes (as searchable metadata, of course) to describe the checkpoint and perhaps increment a version number as in Jonathan's version control observation. The "checkpoint" log could also be used by other elements of the system. I'd like, for example, to have the version of a document that I emailed automatically checkpointed as such, so when I went into the document history I could easily find the version that I had sent to Sam, or that I had uploaded to a file server, etc. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
In the version control universe, you would "tag" your file(s) to identify a particular snapshot of your work (e.g. "version 1.1") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_control#Baselines.2C_labels.2C_and_tags On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Coryndon Luxmoore wrote: > Strictly speaking save as a function is a holdover from the day that > computers were not capable of retaining a running list of all edits and > storing them in real time. > > So in my mind the question is if we remove the need to save a file how do I > mark a significant point in the creation of a file? > > --C > > > Coryndon Luxmoore > Interaction Designer > > coryndon (at) luxmoore (dot) com > - > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Den Serras wrote: > >> I had the same conversation with a friend just yesterday. We've seen >> icons with a down arrow pointing at a hard disk or computer (which >> also seems to mean export), but the best I've seen is a down arrow >> pointing into a folder. >> >> As a thought experiment, we wondered what if the world didn't have >> floppies, and "save" was just invented. What would it look like? We >> liked the folder/arrow idea, since it's cross-platform, or a folder >> with a document going in it. Since these days files are not >> associated with physical storage anywhere near as much, we thought it >> might be possible to use an icon for the concept of save rather than a >> symbol referencing the process of saving a file to disc. We thought of >> liferings, lifeguards, hands, rescue boats, helicopters, and banks. >> That led us to using the philosophy behind "save" - making >> something safe - which led to bank vaults/safes, baseball home >> plates, file cabinets, keys, combo locks, keyholes, doors, houses, >> bank buildings, cash registers, and security images like fences, >> walls, barbed wire, and castles. >> >> I'm sure there's a lot more out there... >> >> >> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >> Posted from the new ixda.org >> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 >> >> >> >> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! >> To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org >> Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe >> List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines >> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help >> > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Strictly speaking save as a function is a holdover from the day that computers were not capable of retaining a running list of all edits and storing them in real time. So in my mind the question is if we remove the need to save a file how do I mark a significant point in the creation of a file? --C Coryndon Luxmoore Interaction Designer coryndon (at) luxmoore (dot) com - On Mar 19, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Den Serras wrote: I had the same conversation with a friend just yesterday. We've seen icons with a down arrow pointing at a hard disk or computer (which also seems to mean export), but the best I've seen is a down arrow pointing into a folder. As a thought experiment, we wondered what if the world didn't have floppies, and "save" was just invented. What would it look like? We liked the folder/arrow idea, since it's cross-platform, or a folder with a document going in it. Since these days files are not associated with physical storage anywhere near as much, we thought it might be possible to use an icon for the concept of save rather than a symbol referencing the process of saving a file to disc. We thought of liferings, lifeguards, hands, rescue boats, helicopters, and banks. That led us to using the philosophy behind "save" - making something safe - which led to bank vaults/safes, baseball home plates, file cabinets, keys, combo locks, keyholes, doors, houses, bank buildings, cash registers, and security images like fences, walls, barbed wire, and castles. I'm sure there's a lot more out there... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
I had the same conversation with a friend just yesterday. We've seen icons with a down arrow pointing at a hard disk or computer (which also seems to mean export), but the best I've seen is a down arrow pointing into a folder. As a thought experiment, we wondered what if the world didn't have floppies, and "save" was just invented. What would it look like? We liked the folder/arrow idea, since it's cross-platform, or a folder with a document going in it. Since these days files are not associated with physical storage anywhere near as much, we thought it might be possible to use an icon for the concept of save rather than a symbol referencing the process of saving a file to disc. We thought of liferings, lifeguards, hands, rescue boats, helicopters, and banks. That led us to using the philosophy behind "save" - making something safe - which led to bank vaults/safes, baseball home plates, file cabinets, keys, combo locks, keyholes, doors, houses, bank buildings, cash registers, and security images like fences, walls, barbed wire, and castles. I'm sure there's a lot more out there... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Many printers do not resemble whatever print icon a particular app may provide. Apple's Mail app uses a paper airplane to mean Send. It is a loose metaphor to be sure--and lacks any association whatsoever to the accompanying sound effect. But it is understandable and probably more recognizable and memorable than a sidewalk mailbox or a more accurate SMTP server. A spyglass would be a suboptimal tool for searching a room full of files or the Library of Congress for all documents containing a particular phrase. But it is recognizable and memorable, so that's what most apps use to represent "search". A paint brush for copying styles? A single sheet of paper with a folded corner to represent what could be a 400-page book, a 500-row spreadsheet or a two-hour movie? A stagecoach to represent a bank? Once an icon becomes established, it is easier to teach it to new users than to re-teach a new icon to habituated users. Storage media today range from disk drives encased in usually rectangular boxes to circular optical discs to flash memory chips. None are as distinctive and charming as an old-fashioned floppy. Using any one of them might be taken to exclude the rest. For example, an optical disc might be assumed to mean "Burn". I think it would take a spectacularly clever icon to displace the floppy for Save. Larry Tesler On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Jake Trimble wrote: Has anyone seen any attempts to replace the standard floppy disk Save icon? Seeing as most people haven't touched a 3.5" floppy in a decade, is anyone addressing this archaic icon and how we can replace the current mental model associated with it? Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Interesting point. Strikes me as a metaphor which has become slightly divorced from its original meaning. Most users would automatically associate it with "save", although they're probably not thinking, "that must be save, because it looks like a floppy disk". You might argue that the same has happened (but to a lesser extent) with the metaphor of the envelope for email. Many of us use email far more than the "real world" post(?), and don't necessarily equate the sending of an email with sending a letter, but the envelope icon persists and has less of a "metaphorical" meaning. So, what I guess I'm trying to say is, if the icons take on a new meaning of their own over time do they even need to change? Just a thought. David Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"
Has anyone seen any attempts to replace the standard floppy disk Save icon? Seeing as most people haven't touched a 3.5" floppy in a decade, is anyone addressing this archaic icon and how we can replace the current mental model associated with it? Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
