Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Paul Norman]

On 3/18/2018 3:23 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

Paul,

A kindergarten is a school, not a child-care center. They are two 
fundamentally different things. Also, child-care centers serve a range 
of ages, not just 5-year-olds. I, too, tried to find a real child-care 
tag a few months ago. There is none, and "kindergarten" doesn't cut it.


In American English kindergarten has this meaning, but 
amenity=kindergarten is used for "Use the amenity=kindergarten for 
establishments offering early years education and supervision (also 
known as pre-schools) for children up to the age of formal (often 
mandatory) school education. This tag is also currently used for 
establishments where parents can leave their young children but which 
provide no formal education."


When we get to specific uses, it is used for "a day facility for 
children, covering a wider and overlapping range of crèche children (0-3 
years), kindergarten/preschool (3-6 years), and after-school care for 
primary school children (6-12 years)"


I was looking for child-care a few months ago, and the places that I 
found that were also in OSM were mapped with amenity=kindergarten.


Don't worry too much about the meaning of OSM tags in American English. 
They're supposed to be defined in British English, and even then, the 
meaning can shift as people use it, just like language can.
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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Rory McCann]

On 19/03/18 16:18, Philip Barnes wrote:
Baby hatch sounds a horrible tag, sounds mechanical uncaring and 
impersonal. I assume it means a maternity ward?


They're literally hatches for babies ( 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_hatch ). They're in some countries, 
and are attached to maternity hospitals. They are places for new mothers 
to leave their babies.


There are a lot of crisis pregnancies, and sometimes repressive 
societies, and sometimes new mothers make rash decisions[1] and there 
are plenty of newborn babies who are left to die. The theory here is 
that if they are going to abandon the baby, better the baby is left 
somewhere safe(r), than the side of a road, or worse.


--

[1] Until recently Ireland was such a society. 15 year old Ann Lovett 
died giving birth in a grotto, and the last slave labour factory for 
unmarried mothers closed less than a decade before OSM was founded.


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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Nick Doty]

On Mar 19, 2018, at 3:18 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> Baby hatch sounds a horrible tag, sounds mechanical uncaring and impersonal. 
> I assume it means a maternity ward?

As described in the tag documentation, a "baby hatch" is not a maternity ward, 
but a very specific service, and often a service that is separate from hospital 
or other health care services (although sometimes it's also included in 
hospitals). The "hatch" term apparently comes from the privacy that is inherent 
in such a system, where a parent may not want to be identified when giving up a 
child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_hatch 


These are important things to map as standalone items on OSM, I think. It 
doesn't look like the tag is frequently used at this point, and I don't know if 
there are other sources to find these particular venues. But they do exist, 
under different names in different countries and cultures.

—Nick


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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Marc Gemis]

> Baby hatch sounds a horrible tag, sounds mechanical uncaring and impersonal.
> I assume it means a maternity ward?

It's called "vondelingenschuif" or "vondelingenluik" in Dutch, and the
exist nowadays: http://www.vondelingenluik.be/
It can be used by women that want to give away their babies and want
to stay anonymous.

regards

m.

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Philip Barnes]

The health care functions you mentioned there are things that would not be 
mapped as standalone functions in my experience.

They are functions that exist as part of the general healthcare, most will 
exist within the local hospital although some will be provided locally in the 
local surgery (amenity=doctors).

A midwife is not a standalone function, it is a person who works through the 
normal health care system. Births outside hospital are heavily discouraged.

Baby hatch sounds a horrible tag, sounds mechanical uncaring and impersonal. I 
assume it means a maternity ward?

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 19 March 2018 14:46:16 GMT+00:00, Selene Yang  wrote:
>Here are so many examples about tagging for women related things:
>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_in_Support_of_Women_and_Girls,
>I don't know if you've seen this before.
>
>best,
>
>S.
>
>2018-03-19 8:42 GMT-06:00 Marc Gemis :
>
>> >
>> > So do we want to propose switching from amenity=kindergarten as a
>> > general pre-school childcare tag to the more descriptive and
>general
>> > case amenity=childcare tag? Or improve the description of the
>existing
>> > tag and promote subtags, for example to distinguish the general
>case from
>> > the US case and or use age's.
>>
>> Currently,  the wiki page on kindergarten [1] has already several
>> hints to the use for different situations:
>>
>> * "This tag is also currently used for establishments where parents
>> can leave their young children but which provide no formal
>education."
>> * reference to min_age and max_age.
>> * In the section for Germany, Switserland, Austria: "Recently it was
>> proposed to add sub-tags for the three age categories, nursery=yes,
>> preschool=yes and after_school=yes."
>>
>> so it seems that people are already extending the
>kindergarten-related
>> tags to be used for childcare as well.
>>
>>
>> This is a type of discussion that has popped up in other areas as
>> well: do we add additional tags to a more general concept to describe
>> the different variants, or do we use a specific tag for each variant
>?
>> Defining whether something is a variant or a a different "beast", has
>> lead to many mails on the tagging mailing list. People use the
>> expression duck-tagging vs. structured tagging in those discussions.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> m.
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=kindergarten
>>
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>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Selene Yang Rappaccioli
>Candidata Doctoral en Comunicación
>Universidad Nacional de La Plata
>@SeleneYang

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Selene Yang]

Here are so many examples about tagging for women related things:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_in_Support_of_Women_and_Girls,
I don't know if you've seen this before.

best,

S.

2018-03-19 8:42 GMT-06:00 Marc Gemis :

> >
> > So do we want to propose switching from amenity=kindergarten as a
> > general pre-school childcare tag to the more descriptive and general
> > case amenity=childcare tag? Or improve the description of the existing
> > tag and promote subtags, for example to distinguish the general case from
> > the US case and or use age's.
>
> Currently,  the wiki page on kindergarten [1] has already several
> hints to the use for different situations:
>
> * "This tag is also currently used for establishments where parents
> can leave their young children but which provide no formal education."
> * reference to min_age and max_age.
> * In the section for Germany, Switserland, Austria: "Recently it was
> proposed to add sub-tags for the three age categories, nursery=yes,
> preschool=yes and after_school=yes."
>
> so it seems that people are already extending the kindergarten-related
> tags to be used for childcare as well.
>
>
> This is a type of discussion that has popped up in other areas as
> well: do we add additional tags to a more general concept to describe
> the different variants, or do we use a specific tag for each variant ?
> Defining whether something is a variant or a a different "beast", has
> lead to many mails on the tagging mailing list. People use the
> expression duck-tagging vs. structured tagging in those discussions.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
>
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=kindergarten
>
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-- 

Selene Yang Rappaccioli
Candidata Doctoral en Comunicación
Universidad Nacional de La Plata
@SeleneYang
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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Rory McCann]

Hi Charlotte,

What about amenity=childcare? There are ~12,000 of them mapped in OSM. 
Or are you thinking of something else? (I think) it's been part of

iD's presets for about 5 years[1]. It's not (yet) in JOSM's presets I
think.

I initially wondered if "kindergarten" in Germany was the same as a
childcare or creche, but apparently a German kindergarten is more like a
playschool (or kindergarden in USA).

Rory

[1] 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/commit/26cab408e8050ec0eacefe9cfca15db95ce423b2


On 18/03/18 23:23, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

Paul,

A kindergarten is a school, not a child-care center. They are two 
fundamentally different things. Also, child-care centers serve a range 
of ages, not just 5-year-olds. I, too, tried to find a real child-care 
tag a few months ago. There is none, and "kindergarten" doesn't cut it.


Charlotte


At 04:40 PM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=E05DE6A0022FF7C5FF3B1F54
Content-language: en-US

On 3/14/2018 6:47 PM, alyssa wright wrote:

Hi all,

City Lab article below on gender disparity in OSM. I actually think 
things have evolved and are more nuanced then ever before. Wondering 
if I am being naive. 


Yes. Part of the thesis of the article is based around the claims of 
what gets mapped. The claims in the article do not reflect reality.


OSM has more child-care centers (amenity=kindergarten) mapped than 
sports arenas or sports arenas, the examples from the article. I 
couldn't figure out what tags Levine was talking about for strip clubs.


For healthcare, the claims are vaguer, but as a general rule, 
"primary" information like something being a doctor's office, clinic, 
or other healthcare facility gets mapped faster than "subtag" 
information like what type of specialty the doctor's has. This is 
normal - when I'm out mapping, noting where there's a doctor's or 
clinic is more important than what type it is. You see the same in 
other subtags.


 Looking at what healthcare facilities is tagged with that additional 
information, and ignoring "general", the five most popular are 
"Obstetrics and gynaecology", "Ophthalmology", "General (internal) 
medicine", "Paediatrics", and "Trauma and orthopaedic surgery". (UK 
terms).


The gender percentages are interesting, and if accurate, put a much 
lower value on percentage of mapping that HOT does than I've seen in 
the past. I suspect there are some problems with different sources of 
numbers, and the numbers cited not being accurate.


[1]: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare%3Aspeciality#values



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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps the World

[Marc Gemis]

Rory,

I did not want to say that some objects are not gendered in some
countries, I'm sorry for not making that clear.
I wanted to point out is that "because object X is gendered in a
country, it is gendered in every country" is wrong.
So any statistics that count the number of objects X on a global level
to point out gender inequality is wrong.


regards

m.





On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Rory McCann  wrote:
> Hi Marc,
>
> Unfortunately a lot of things are gendered, and often it's not logical. So
> when someone say "In my home ($COUNTRY), $THING is gendered for $GENDER",
> you basically have to just take their word for it, even if it doesn't make
> logical sense for you. So people can't really answer "Why?" It is because it
> is (in $COUNTRY).
>
> On 16/03/18 07:00, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> - Why is a bar considered a men-only place ? Can't it be a trendy
>> place for all kinds young people to enjoy a good night out ?
>>I have seen pubs mentioned in previous articles as well. Where I
>> live we map "taverns" as pubs. Many taverns are places where families
>> go on a sunday afternoon to meet, let the children play in the
>> playground, have an ice-creme, pancake or even full dinner together.
>
>
> Traditionally (in IE & UK) women weren't allowed in pubs, and not supposed
> to drink pints. Ergo there's still an overhang of that.
>
>> - Why is a toilet without gender tag considered men-only ? Where I
>> live public toilets have separate sections for women and men, that is
>> why we do not bother to map gender.
>
>
> Apparently in some countries that's not true! At SotM 2016 Srravya C
> explained that this isn't the case in India.
>
> --
> Rory

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps the World

[Rory McCann]

Hi Marc,

Unfortunately a lot of things are gendered, and often it's not logical. 
So when someone say "In my home ($COUNTRY), $THING is gendered for 
$GENDER", you basically have to just take their word for it, even if it 
doesn't make logical sense for you. So people can't really answer "Why?" 
It is because it is (in $COUNTRY).


On 16/03/18 07:00, Marc Gemis wrote:

- Why is a bar considered a men-only place ? Can't it be a trendy
place for all kinds young people to enjoy a good night out ?
   I have seen pubs mentioned in previous articles as well. Where I
live we map "taverns" as pubs. Many taverns are places where families
go on a sunday afternoon to meet, let the children play in the
playground, have an ice-creme, pancake or even full dinner together.


Traditionally (in IE & UK) women weren't allowed in pubs, and not 
supposed to drink pints. Ergo there's still an overhang of that.



- Why is a toilet without gender tag considered men-only ? Where I
live public toilets have separate sections for women and men, that is
why we do not bother to map gender.


Apparently in some countries that's not true! At SotM 2016 Srravya C 
explained that this isn't the case in India.


--
Rory

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Rory McCann]

Hi all,

There's a lot to be said about those in power choosing the map. This
article points out a lot of the good work HOT is doing to get women
involved, but this article has the same false sound bites about how OSM
works.


That gender imbalance provokes serious debate among mapmakers—one of
the more contentious battles in OSM history was in 2011, when editors
 rejected an appeal to tag “childcare” at all. (It’s since been
added.)


 This again! That didn't happen. Pretty sure that isn't the "more
contentious battles in OSM history".

The article links to QueeringTheMap.com, which I hadn't heard of yet,
but it looks like conservatives spammed it off the internet. 

There's a long history of forcing the human rights of marginalized
people to be put up for popular vote, and it's harmful to marginalized
people, so we shouldn't be telling people that OSM requires a democratic
vote.

--
Rory

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Charlotte Wolter]

Paul,

A kindergarten is a school, not a child-care center. They 
are two fundamentally different things. Also, child-care centers 
serve a range of ages, not just 5-year-olds. I, too, tried to find a 
real child-care tag a few months ago. There is none, and 
"kindergarten" doesn't cut it.


Charlotte


At 04:40 PM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=E05DE6A0022FF7C5FF3B1F54
Content-language: en-US

On 3/14/2018 6:47 PM, alyssa wright wrote:

Hi all,

City Lab article below on gender disparity in OSM. I actually think 
things have evolved and are more nuanced then ever before. 
Wondering if I am being naive.


Yes. Part of the thesis of the article is based around the claims of 
what gets mapped. The claims in the article do not reflect reality.


OSM has more child-care centers (amenity=kindergarten) mapped than 
sports arenas or sports arenas, the examples from the article. I 
couldn't figure out what tags Levine was talking about for strip clubs.


For healthcare, the claims are vaguer, but as a general rule, 
"primary" information like something being a doctor's office, 
clinic, or other healthcare facility gets mapped faster than 
"subtag" information like what type of specialty the doctor's has. 
This is normal - when I'm out mapping, noting where there's a 
doctor's or clinic is more important than what type it is. You see 
the same in other subtags.


 Looking at what healthcare facilities is tagged with that 
additional information, and ignoring "general", the five most 
popular are "Obstetrics and gynaecology", "Ophthalmology", "General 
(internal) medicine", "Paediatrics", and "Trauma and orthopaedic 
surgery". (UK terms).


The gender percentages are interesting, and if accurate, put a much 
lower value on percentage of mapping that HOT does than I've seen in 
the past. I suspect there are some problems with different sources 
of numbers, and the numbers cited not being accurate.


[1]: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare%3Aspeciality#values



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927 18th Street Suite A
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90403
+1-310-597-4040
Mobile: 310-663-3699
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Skype: thetechlady

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps the World

[Marc Gemis]

Hallo,

I will not dispute the numbers in this article, but I do have some
questions on the data behind the numbers.

- Why is a bar considered a men-only place ? Can't it be a trendy
place for all kinds young people to enjoy a good night out ?
  I have seen pubs mentioned in previous articles as well. Where I
live we map "taverns" as pubs. Many taverns are places where families
go on a sunday afternoon to meet, let the children play in the
playground, have an ice-creme, pancake or even full dinner together.
- Why is a toilet without gender tag considered men-only ? Where I
live public toilets have separate sections for women and men, that is
why we do not bother to map gender.
- Why is mapping a brothel considered bad ? Can't it be seen as a
warning for families enjoying a walk with little children to avoid
those areas ? On the other hand the article asks for mapping places
where women feel safe, so isn't this part of it ?
- I think that as far as abortion clinics go that in my country it is
just one of specialisms of the regular hospitals.

So some conclusions might have been made by extrapolation from a local
situation where certain tagging indicates a gender bias. But this does
not mean that the same tagging in an other country is also
gender-biased.

Furthermore, my feeling is that we need a more positive approach to
fix missing data (whether it is caused by gender bias or not).
So instead of "We are group X, we analyzed item Y in OSM, and it's not
there. There are more items Z mapped. Bad OSM"
Can't we go for an approach
"We are group X, we need data on item Y, please help us mapping item
Y, we are grateful if you do, thanks"

I think the latter is more welcoming, more friendly, less criticising
the current mappers (according to the article  "retired white men").
Don't we all want to make OSM friendly for everybody ? including the
current mappers ?

What do you think ? Am I way off ?

m


On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Mikel Maron  wrote:
> https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/03/who-maps-the-world/555272/
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Paul Norman]

On 3/14/2018 6:47 PM, alyssa wright wrote:

Hi all,

City Lab article below on gender disparity in OSM. I actually think 
things have evolved and are more nuanced then ever before. Wondering 
if I am being naive.


Yes - part of the thesis of the article is based around the claims of 
what gets mapped. The claims in the article do not reflect reality.


OSM has more childcare centers (amenity=kindergarten) mapped than sports 
arenas or sports arenas, the examples from the article. I couldn't 
figure out what tags Levine was talking about for strip clubs.





For healthcare, the claims are vaguer, but as a general rule, "primary" 
information like something being a doctor's office, clinic, or other 
healthcare facility gets mapped faster than "subtag" information like 
what type of specialty the doctor's has. This is normal - when I'm out 
mapping, noting where there's a doctor's or clinic is more important 
than what type it is. You see the same in other subtags.


 Looking at what healthcare facilities is tagged with that additional 
information, and ignoring "general", the five most popular are 
"Obstetrics and gynaecology", "Ophthalmology", "General (internal) 
medicine", "Paediatrics", and "Trauma and orthopaedic surgery". (UK terms).


The gender percentages are interesting, and if accurate, put a much 
lower value on percentage of mapping that HOT does than I've seen in the 
past. I suspect there are some problems with different sources of 
numbers, and the numbers cited not being accurate.


[1]: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare%3Aspeciality#values
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[Diversity-talk] Who Maps the World

[Mikel Maron]

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/03/who-maps-the-world/555272/

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron___
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Re: [Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[Heather Leson]

Thanks for sharing Alyssa.

Rachel and allies, this is a great piece. It would be great to share on the
main list. I would be happy to do so and share in the discussion.

I'll share here.
https://www.facebook.com/OpenStreetMap/?ref=br_rs



Thanks for all your leadership. Step by step

Heather

Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:47 AM, alyssa wright 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> City Lab article below on gender disparity in OSM. I actually think things
> have evolved and are more nuanced then ever before. Wondering if I am being
> naive.
>
> https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/03/who-maps-the-world/555272/
>
>
> A map only reveals as much as the mapmaker knows about the world, or at
> least, cares to show. When most mapmakers are men, there’s bound to be gaps.
>
> For example, on Open Street Map, the free and open-source Google Maps
> competitor edited by volunteers around the world, “childcare centers,
> health clinics, abortion clinics, and specialty clinics that deal with
> women’s health are vastly underrepresented,” reports Sarah Holder at
> CityLab
> .
> It’s estimated that just 2 to 5 percent of OSMers are women. The vast
> majority are older, retired men.
>
> That gender imbalance provokes serious debate among mapmakers—one of the
> more contentious battles in OSM history was in 2011, when editors rejected
> an appeal to tag “childcare” at all. (It’s since been added.) But more
> importantly, a map that fails to represent the needs of more than half the
> population is not a very a useful map. The stakes are highest in places
> where there is no Google, Apple, or any other company working as a back-up.
> Sometimes, a volunteer-made map is the only cartographic resource citizens
> and humanitarian organizations in developing countries have to go on.
> A childcare center in Scottsdale, Arizona. (OSM)
>
> That’s why a team of OpenStreetMap users—with lots of women involved—is
> intentionally creating maps that reflect space more inclusively. On
> International Women’s Day, Holder reported on a “feminist map-a-thon” in
> Washington, D.C., hosted by Missing Maps, a humanitarian mapping
> organization. There, volunteers worked to build a map for an NGO in
> Tanzania that shelters girls facing the threat of genital mutilation. Their
> digital lines and labels (such as: “women’s toilet”) could become
> real-world escape routes.
>
> Inclusive geography is about more than mapping bridges and tunnels that
> everybody uses. “It’s shaped by asking things like: Where on the map do you
> feel safe?” Holder writes. “How would you walk from A to B in the city
> without having to look over your shoulder? It’s hard to map these
> intangibles—but not impossible.”
>
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[Diversity-talk] Who Maps The World

[alyssa wright]

Hi all,

City Lab article below on gender disparity in OSM. I actually think things
have evolved and are more nuanced then ever before. Wondering if I am being
naive.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/03/who-maps-the-world/555272/


A map only reveals as much as the mapmaker knows about the world, or at
least, cares to show. When most mapmakers are men, there’s bound to be gaps.

For example, on Open Street Map, the free and open-source Google Maps
competitor edited by volunteers around the world, “childcare centers,
health clinics, abortion clinics, and specialty clinics that deal with
women’s health are vastly underrepresented,” reports Sarah Holder at CityLab
.
It’s estimated that just 2 to 5 percent of OSMers are women. The vast
majority are older, retired men.

That gender imbalance provokes serious debate among mapmakers—one of the
more contentious battles in OSM history was in 2011, when editors rejected
an appeal to tag “childcare” at all. (It’s since been added.) But more
importantly, a map that fails to represent the needs of more than half the
population is not a very a useful map. The stakes are highest in places
where there is no Google, Apple, or any other company working as a back-up.
Sometimes, a volunteer-made map is the only cartographic resource citizens
and humanitarian organizations in developing countries have to go on.
A childcare center in Scottsdale, Arizona. (OSM)

That’s why a team of OpenStreetMap users—with lots of women involved—is
intentionally creating maps that reflect space more inclusively. On
International Women’s Day, Holder reported on a “feminist map-a-thon” in
Washington, D.C., hosted by Missing Maps, a humanitarian mapping
organization. There, volunteers worked to build a map for an NGO in
Tanzania that shelters girls facing the threat of genital mutilation. Their
digital lines and labels (such as: “women’s toilet”) could become
real-world escape routes.

Inclusive geography is about more than mapping bridges and tunnels that
everybody uses. “It’s shaped by asking things like: Where on the map do you
feel safe?” Holder writes. “How would you walk from A to B in the city
without having to look over your shoulder? It’s hard to map these
intangibles—but not impossible.”
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