Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Jacob Rief]

There is a ticket for this feature request now:
https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/35514#ticket

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Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Mariusz Felisiak]

It seems we have a consensus here to support multiple email backends. 
Jacob, feel-free to create a new ticket.

Best,
Mariusz

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Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Jacob Rief]

On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 7:55:47 AM UTC+1 f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:

> Okay then,
>
> some of the things like sender reputation and different bounce hooks came 
> to my mind as well, but it is good to hear confirmation from others. I 
> think the next steps would be to create a new ticket to add support for 
> *multiple* email backends and then work from that (I would only link the 
> old ticket since it's scope was mainly putting the config into a dict as 
> opposed to multiple backends). Given that there are plenty of +1 here 
> already I think we already have our implementors? :)
>
> Some items that I like to see addressed in a PR:
>  * Backwards compat
>  * Similarity to Caches & Databases (ie so we don't invent yet another 
> syntax)
>  * Support for connection aliases (default/…) in send_email % friends 
> (basically everything taking a connection now should probably take aliases 
> as well)
>

OK. Since I made the proposal, it then is probably up to me to create the 
ticket.  

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Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Florian Apolloner]

Okay then,

some of the things like sender reputation and different bounce hooks came 
to my mind as well, but it is good to hear confirmation from others. I 
think the next steps would be to create a new ticket to add support for 
*multiple* email backends and then work from that (I would only link the 
old ticket since it's scope was mainly putting the config into a dict as 
opposed to multiple backends). Given that there are plenty of +1 here 
already I think we already have our implementors? :)

Some items that I like to see addressed in a PR:
 * Backwards compat
 * Similarity to Caches & Databases (ie so we don't invent yet another 
syntax)
 * Support for connection aliases (default/…) in send_email % friends 
(basically everything taking a connection now should probably take aliases 
as well)

Cheers,
Florian

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 11:07:56 PM UTC+1 Adam Johnson wrote:

> Another situation you might want multiple backends is when switching 
> providers. Rather than big-bang swap *all* email sends to a new provider, 
> you might want to move only low-value emails first, or a percentage of your 
> user base, and iterate.
>
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 at 20:59, Steven Mapes  wrote:
>
>> I should add I also have other instances my clients use a custom AWS SES 
>> backend I wrote used for various types of sends (bulk, newsletters) but 
>> generally sends where they need SNS notifications to trigger HTTPS 
>> postbacks for certain results from the send such as bounced mails, spam 
>> reports etc where those the requests go back to the django server to be 
>> handled whereas other mail sends may go via O365 / Google for general, 
>> often internal, notifications and emails send.
>>
>> I have another client who has two mail providers where one is the primary 
>> and if that fails due to the SMTP server being down, the platform othen 
>> fails over to re-send via the backup SMTP server.
>>
>> *Steve Mapes*
>> Steven Mapes T/A Jigsaw Tech
>> E: st...@jigsawtech.co.uk 
>> 
>> P: +44(0)7974220046
>> W: https://www.jigsawtech.co.uk/ 
>> 
>> [image: LinkedIn] 
>> [image:
>>  
>> Twitter] 
>> 
>> The entire content of this email message is confidential. This also 
>> applies to any files attached to it. This email is intended for an 
>> individual or entity to whom they are addressed. In case you are not the 
>> addressee of this email, and you have received it in error, contact the 
>> system manager immediately. The information could be very sensitive, and it 
>> is intended for the specific addressee. This email should not be 
>> disseminated, distributed or copied. If you have received this email and it 
>> was not for you, please notify the sender by email immediately and 
>> afterward delete this email from your system. Disclosing, copying, 
>> distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the email content is 
>> strictly prohibited.
>> On Jan 30 2022, at 3:38 pm, Florian Apolloner  wrote:
>>
>> I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send 
>> from different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?
>>
>> [image: Sent from Mailspring]
>> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support 
>> multiple backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of 
>> mine and for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main 
>> site sends emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then when 
>> alternative email are required for sales and/or customer service email 
>> address where it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a 
>> custom settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to 
>> that using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
>>
>> On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>> I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary 
>> (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should 
>> rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and 
>> figure out if we should move more se

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

['Adam Johnson' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)]

Another situation you might want multiple backends is when switching
providers. Rather than big-bang swap *all* email sends to a new provider,
you might want to move only low-value emails first, or a percentage of your
user base, and iterate.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 at 20:59, Steven Mapes  wrote:

> I should add I also have other instances my clients use a custom AWS SES
> backend I wrote used for various types of sends (bulk, newsletters) but
> generally sends where they need SNS notifications to trigger HTTPS
> postbacks for certain results from the send such as bounced mails, spam
> reports etc where those the requests go back to the django server to be
> handled whereas other mail sends may go via O365 / Google for general,
> often internal, notifications and emails send.
>
> I have another client who has two mail providers where one is the primary
> and if that fails due to the SMTP server being down, the platform othen
> fails over to re-send via the backup SMTP server.
>
> *Steve Mapes*
> Steven Mapes T/A Jigsaw Tech
> E: st...@jigsawtech.co.uk
> 
> P: +44(0)7974220046
> W: https://www.jigsawtech.co.uk/
> 
> [image: LinkedIn]
> [image:
> Twitter]
> 
> The entire content of this email message is confidential. This also
> applies to any files attached to it. This email is intended for an
> individual or entity to whom they are addressed. In case you are not the
> addressee of this email, and you have received it in error, contact the
> system manager immediately. The information could be very sensitive, and it
> is intended for the specific addressee. This email should not be
> disseminated, distributed or copied. If you have received this email and it
> was not for you, please notify the sender by email immediately and
> afterward delete this email from your system. Disclosing, copying,
> distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the email content is
> strictly prohibited.
> On Jan 30 2022, at 3:38 pm, Florian Apolloner 
> wrote:
>
> I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send
> from different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?
>
> [image: Sent from Mailspring]
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk
> wrote:
>
> I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support multiple
> backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of mine and
> for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main site sends
> emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then when
> alternative email are required for sales and/or customer service email
> address where it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a
> custom settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to
> that using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
>
> On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi Jacob,
>
> I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary
> (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should
> rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and
> figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries.
>
> > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you
> have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in
> production
> you may for instance use AWSs SES
>  service.
>
> This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support
> for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take
> databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there
> but switch the actual values in the default database.
>
> > `EMAIL = [...]`
>
> I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with
> CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique
> name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the
> passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.
>
> > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}
>
> I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP
> sub

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Steven Mapes]

I should add I also have other instances my clients use a custom AWS SES 
backend I wrote used for various types of sends (bulk, newsletters) but 
generally sends where they need SNS notifications to trigger HTTPS postbacks 
for certain results from the send such as bounced mails, spam reports etc where 
those the requests go back to the django server to be handled whereas other 
mail sends may go via O365 / Google for general, often internal, notifications 
and emails send.

I have another client who has two mail providers where one is the primary and 
if that fails due to the SMTP server being down, the platform othen fails over 
to re-send via the backup SMTP server.
Steve Mapes
Steven Mapes T/A Jigsaw Tech

E: st...@jigsawtech.co.uk 
(https://link.getmailspring.com/link/cf847694-1156-4ba3-bc92-5f42d434b...@getmailspring.com/0?redirect=mailto%3Asteve%40jigsawtech.co.uk&recipient=ZGphbmdvLWRldmVsb3BlcnNAZ29vZ2xlZ3JvdXBzLmNvbQ%3D%3D)
P: +44(0)7974220046 (tel:+44(0)7974220046)
W: https://www.jigsawtech.co.uk/ 
(https://link.getmailspring.com/link/cf847694-1156-4ba3-bc92-5f42d434b...@getmailspring.com/1?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jigsawtech.co.uk%2F&recipient=ZGphbmdvLWRldmVsb3BlcnNAZ29vZ2xlZ3JvdXBzLmNvbQ%3D%3D)

The entire content of this email message is confidential. This also applies to 
any files attached to it. This email is intended for an individual or entity to 
whom they are addressed. In case you are not the addressee of this email, and 
you have received it in error, contact the system manager immediately. The 
information could be very sensitive, and it is intended for the specific 
addressee. This email should not be disseminated, distributed or copied. If you 
have received this email and it was not for you, please notify the sender by 
email immediately and afterward delete this email from your system. Disclosing, 
copying, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the email content is 
strictly prohibited.

On Jan 30 2022, at 3:38 pm, Florian Apolloner  wrote:
> I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send from 
> different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?
>
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk wrote:
> > I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support multiple 
> > backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of mine and 
> > for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main site sends 
> > emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then when alternative 
> > email are required for sales and/or customer service email address where 
> > it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a custom 
> > settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to that 
> > using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
> >
> > On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Hi Jacob,
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary 
> > > (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should 
> > > rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and 
> > > figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries.
> > >
> > > > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
> > > > have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while 
> > > > in production
> > > you may for instance use AWSs SES 
> > > (https://docs.aws.amazon.com/ses/latest/dg/Welcome.html) service.
> > >
> > > This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support 
> > > for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take 
> > > databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there 
> > > but switch the actual values in the default database.
> > >
> > > > `EMAIL = [...]`
> > >
> > > I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with 
> > > CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique 
> > > name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the 
> > > passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.
> > >
> > > > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}
> > >
> > > I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP 
> > > submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is just 
> > > a protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.
> > >
> > > As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not 
> > > see an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as 
> > > such; this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…
> > >
> > > So I guess it boils down to the following questions:
> > >
> > > * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if 
> > > yes we would move to a settings dict anyways…
> > > * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a 
> > >

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Steven Mapes]

I have clients that use different mailboxes sometimes with totally different 
providers (O365, Google, their own mailservers) so they need different SMTP 
settings. In some cases they also read from the mailboxes, granted this isn't 
from Django builtin functionality but in those cases it uses the same 
credentials.

Steve Mapes
Steven Mapes T/A Jigsaw Tech

E: st...@jigsawtech.co.uk 
(https://link.getmailspring.com/link/e32a2c46-7b3e-441e-ab1b-879d066cf...@getmailspring.com/0?redirect=mailto%3Asteve%40jigsawtech.co.uk&recipient=ZGphbmdvLWRldmVsb3BlcnNAZ29vZ2xlZ3JvdXBzLmNvbQ%3D%3D)
P: +44(0)7974220046 (tel:+44(0)7974220046)
W: https://www.jigsawtech.co.uk/ 
(https://link.getmailspring.com/link/e32a2c46-7b3e-441e-ab1b-879d066cf...@getmailspring.com/1?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jigsawtech.co.uk%2F&recipient=ZGphbmdvLWRldmVsb3BlcnNAZ29vZ2xlZ3JvdXBzLmNvbQ%3D%3D)

The entire content of this email message is confidential. This also applies to 
any files attached to it. This email is intended for an individual or entity to 
whom they are addressed. In case you are not the addressee of this email, and 
you have received it in error, contact the system manager immediately. The 
information could be very sensitive, and it is intended for the specific 
addressee. This email should not be disseminated, distributed or copied. If you 
have received this email and it was not for you, please notify the sender by 
email immediately and afterward delete this email from your system. Disclosing, 
copying, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the email content is 
strictly prohibited.

On Jan 30 2022, at 3:38 pm, Florian Apolloner  wrote:
> I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send from 
> different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?
>
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk wrote:
> > I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support multiple 
> > backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of mine and 
> > for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main site sends 
> > emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then when alternative 
> > email are required for sales and/or customer service email address where 
> > it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a custom 
> > settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to that 
> > using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
> >
> > On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Hi Jacob,
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary 
> > > (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should 
> > > rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and 
> > > figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries.
> > >
> > > > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
> > > > have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while 
> > > > in production
> > > you may for instance use AWSs SES 
> > > (https://docs.aws.amazon.com/ses/latest/dg/Welcome.html) service.
> > >
> > > This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support 
> > > for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take 
> > > databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there 
> > > but switch the actual values in the default database.
> > >
> > > > `EMAIL = [...]`
> > >
> > > I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with 
> > > CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique 
> > > name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the 
> > > passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.
> > >
> > > > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}
> > >
> > > I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP 
> > > submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is just 
> > > a protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.
> > >
> > > As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not 
> > > see an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as 
> > > such; this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…
> > >
> > > So I guess it boils down to the following questions:
> > >
> > > * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if 
> > > yes we would move to a settings dict anyways…
> > > * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a 
> > > single dict give us?
> > >
> > > In the past I think I have argued for a SECURITY_HEADERS (or similar) 
> > > dict because it allows us to check the dictionary keys easily for typos; 
> > > emails probably don't suffer from that problem as badly as security 
> > > related settings.
> > >
> > > I hope this can get the discussion going.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> 

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Alexander Schulze]

+1 from our side as well.

Another common scenario for us is mail server reputation: We use different
providers for transactional and newsletter emails as well as different
servers depending on the users plan (enterprise customers have a more
reliable but more expensive mail server opposed to basic customers).


Matthias Kestenholz  schrieb am So. 30. Jan. 2022 um 17:09:

> Maybe we're doing something stupid or there's a misunderstanding but we
> had a recent use case for this: The same website runs on several domains,
> one domain per language and each domain has its own email address. We were
> using an email relay (Mailgun in this case but the same will probably be
> true for Sendgrid, SES etc.) with different authentication parameters for
> each sender address.
>
> It wasn't that hard to instantiate one EmailBackend per domain/language
> but it would definitely be nice if something like this was supported out of
> the box.
>
> Best regards,
> Matthias
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 4:39 PM Florian Apolloner 
> wrote:
>
>> I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send
>> from different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?
>>
>> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support
>>> multiple backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of
>>> mine and for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main
>>> site sends emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then
>>> when alternative email are required for sales and/or customer service email
>>> address where it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a
>>> custom settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to
>>> that using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Hi Jacob,

 I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary
 (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should
 rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and
 figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries.

 > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you
 have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in
 production
 you may for instance use AWSs SES
  service.

 This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add
 support for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different.
 Take databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in
 there but switch the actual values in the default database.

 > `EMAIL = [...]`

 I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with
 CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique
 name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the
 passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.

 > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}

 I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow
 HTTP submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is
 just a protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.

 As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not
 see an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as
 such; this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…

 So I guess it boils down to the following questions:

  * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if
 yes we would move to a settings dict anyways…
  * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a
 single dict give us?

 In the past I think I have argued for a SECURITY_HEADERS (or similar)
 dict because it allows us to check the dictionary keys easily for typos;
 emails probably don't suffer from that problem as badly as security related
 settings.

 I hope this can get the discussion going.

 Cheers,
 Florian
 On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 9:29:27 AM UTC+1 jacob...@gmail.com
 wrote:

> Well, that ticket is 8 years old and in the meantime other email
> backends have emerged, requiring different configuration options.
> I made this proposal after attempting to fix a 14 year old open ticket
> #6989 but this was ultimately postponed, see comment by
> Carlton Gibson on
> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728#issuecomment-987762791
>
> To summarize the discussion from 7 years ago
>
> Collin Anderson wrote:
>
>> I don't see any benefit to moving email settings to a dictionary. It
>> is helpful for databases a

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Matthias Kestenholz]

Maybe we're doing something stupid or there's a misunderstanding but we had
a recent use case for this: The same website runs on several domains, one
domain per language and each domain has its own email address. We were
using an email relay (Mailgun in this case but the same will probably be
true for Sendgrid, SES etc.) with different authentication parameters for
each sender address.

It wasn't that hard to instantiate one EmailBackend per domain/language but
it would definitely be nice if something like this was supported out of the
box.

Best regards,
Matthias



On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 4:39 PM Florian Apolloner 
wrote:

> I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send
> from different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?
>
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk
> wrote:
>
>> I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support
>> multiple backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of
>> mine and for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main
>> site sends emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then
>> when alternative email are required for sales and/or customer service email
>> address where it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a
>> custom settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to
>> that using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
>>
>> On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jacob,
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary
>>> (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should
>>> rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and
>>> figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries.
>>>
>>> > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you
>>> have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in
>>> production
>>> you may for instance use AWSs SES
>>>  service.
>>>
>>> This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support
>>> for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take
>>> databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there
>>> but switch the actual values in the default database.
>>>
>>> > `EMAIL = [...]`
>>>
>>> I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with
>>> CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique
>>> name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the
>>> passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.
>>>
>>> > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}
>>>
>>> I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP
>>> submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is just a
>>> protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.
>>>
>>> As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not
>>> see an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as
>>> such; this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…
>>>
>>> So I guess it boils down to the following questions:
>>>
>>>  * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if
>>> yes we would move to a settings dict anyways…
>>>  * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a
>>> single dict give us?
>>>
>>> In the past I think I have argued for a SECURITY_HEADERS (or similar)
>>> dict because it allows us to check the dictionary keys easily for typos;
>>> emails probably don't suffer from that problem as badly as security related
>>> settings.
>>>
>>> I hope this can get the discussion going.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Florian
>>> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 9:29:27 AM UTC+1 jacob...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Well, that ticket is 8 years old and in the meantime other email
 backends have emerged, requiring different configuration options.
 I made this proposal after attempting to fix a 14 year old open ticket
 #6989 but this was ultimately postponed, see comment by
 Carlton Gibson on
 https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728#issuecomment-987762791

 To summarize the discussion from 7 years ago

 Collin Anderson wrote:

> I don't see any benefit to moving email settings to a dictionary. It
> is helpful for databases and caches because there can be multiple
> backends.

 It makes the popular "from local_settings import *" convention harder
> to use. What's wrong with 6 individual settings? If the goal is to allow

 multiple email backends, then let's make that the ticket goal.


 and Carl Meyer replied:

> I agree with Collin; unless we are adding new capabilities (i.e.
> multiple configured email backends, which it seems nobody really wants),
> it'

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Florian Apolloner]

I do not understand why you would need multiple email backends to send from 
different addresses. Can you elaborate on that?

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:18:48 PM UTC+1 st...@jigsawtech.co.uk 
wrote:

> I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support multiple 
> backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of mine and 
> for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main site sends 
> emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then when alternative 
> email are required for sales and/or customer service email address where 
> it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a custom 
> settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to that 
> using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.
>
> On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>> I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary 
>> (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should 
>> rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and 
>> figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries. 
>>
>> > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
>> have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
>> production
>> you may for instance use AWSs SES 
>>  service.
>>
>> This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support 
>> for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take 
>> databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there 
>> but switch the actual values in the default database.
>>
>> > `EMAIL = [...]`
>>
>> I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with 
>> CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique 
>> name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the 
>> passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.  
>>
>> > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}
>>
>> I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP 
>> submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is just a 
>> protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.
>>
>> As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not 
>> see an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as 
>> such; this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…
>>
>> So I guess it boils down to the following questions:
>>
>>  * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if 
>> yes we would move to a settings dict anyways…
>>  * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a 
>> single dict give us?
>>
>> In the past I think I have argued for a SECURITY_HEADERS (or similar) 
>> dict because it allows us to check the dictionary keys easily for typos; 
>> emails probably don't suffer from that problem as badly as security related 
>> settings.
>>
>> I hope this can get the discussion going.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Florian
>> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 9:29:27 AM UTC+1 jacob...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Well, that ticket is 8 years old and in the meantime other email 
>>> backends have emerged, requiring different configuration options.
>>> I made this proposal after attempting to fix a 14 year old open ticket 
>>> #6989 but this was ultimately postponed, see comment by
>>> Carlton Gibson on 
>>> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728#issuecomment-987762791
>>>
>>> To summarize the discussion from 7 years ago
>>>
>>> Collin Anderson wrote:
>>>
 I don't see any benefit to moving email settings to a dictionary. It is 
 helpful for databases and caches because there can be multiple backends.  
>>>
>>> It makes the popular "from local_settings import *" convention harder to 
 use. What's wrong with 6 individual settings? If the goal is to allow
>>>
>>> multiple email backends, then let's make that the ticket goal.
>>>
>>>  
>>> and Carl Meyer replied:
>>>
 I agree with Collin; unless we are adding new capabilities (i.e. 
 multiple configured email backends, which it seems nobody really wants), 
 it's hard 
>>>
>>> to find any actual benefit from this change to justify the churn (and 
 the additional complexities of working with dictionary settings in 
 partial-override scenarios).
>>>
>>>  
>>> why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
>>> have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
>>> production
>>> you may for instance use AWSs SES 
>>>  service. That 
>>> service may require additional configuration settings not available in the 
>>> local smtp backend.
>>> I can also imagine that in some situations it may make sense to have two 
>>> email backends concurrent

Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[st...@jigsawtech.co.uk]

I've a big +1 on changing email config to a dictionary to support multiple 
backends as it's very much a common occurrence for both clients of mine and 
for my own businesses. Most of the use cases are when they main site sends 
emails from no-reply@ such as for password resets but then when alternative 
email are required for sales and/or customer service email address where 
it's handled via the website. Currently I end up creating a custom 
settings.py dictionary to store the settings so I can then refer to that 
using the connection for swapping the backend to send from.

On Sunday, 30 January 2022 at 11:14:54 UTC f.apo...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Jacob,
>
> I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary 
> (somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should 
> rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and 
> figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries. 
>
> > why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
> have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
> production
> you may for instance use AWSs SES 
>  service.
>
> This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support 
> for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take 
> databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there 
> but switch the actual values in the default database.
>
> > `EMAIL = [...]`
>
> I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with 
> CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique 
> name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the 
> passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.  
>
> > Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}
>
> I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP 
> submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is just a 
> protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.
>
> As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not 
> see an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as 
> such; this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…
>
> So I guess it boils down to the following questions:
>
>  * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if 
> yes we would move to a settings dict anyways…
>  * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a 
> single dict give us?
>
> In the past I think I have argued for a SECURITY_HEADERS (or similar) dict 
> because it allows us to check the dictionary keys easily for typos; emails 
> probably don't suffer from that problem as badly as security related 
> settings.
>
> I hope this can get the discussion going.
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 9:29:27 AM UTC+1 jacob...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Well, that ticket is 8 years old and in the meantime other email backends 
>> have emerged, requiring different configuration options.
>> I made this proposal after attempting to fix a 14 year old open ticket 
>> #6989 but this was ultimately postponed, see comment by
>> Carlton Gibson on 
>> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728#issuecomment-987762791
>>
>> To summarize the discussion from 7 years ago
>>
>> Collin Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see any benefit to moving email settings to a dictionary. It is 
>>> helpful for databases and caches because there can be multiple backends.  
>>
>> It makes the popular "from local_settings import *" convention harder to 
>>> use. What's wrong with 6 individual settings? If the goal is to allow
>>
>> multiple email backends, then let's make that the ticket goal.
>>
>>  
>> and Carl Meyer replied:
>>
>>> I agree with Collin; unless we are adding new capabilities (i.e. 
>>> multiple configured email backends, which it seems nobody really wants), 
>>> it's hard 
>>
>> to find any actual benefit from this change to justify the churn (and the 
>>> additional complexities of working with dictionary settings in 
>>> partial-override scenarios).
>>
>>  
>> why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
>> have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
>> production
>> you may for instance use AWSs SES 
>>  service. That 
>> service may require additional configuration settings not available in the 
>> local smtp backend.
>> I can also imagine that in some situations it may make sense to have two 
>> email backends concurrently. We maybe should rethink about that.
>>
>>

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Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi Jacob,

I wouldn't be opposed to move email configuration into a dictionary 
(somewhere between -0 and +0). Although if we plan to do that we should 
rethink all the existing session variables and other as well I guess and 
figure out if we should move more settings to dictionaries. 

> why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you 
have a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
production
you may for instance use AWSs SES 
 service.

This specific example at hand is imo not a good motivator to add support 
for multiple backends because the settings would imo be different. Take 
databases as an example: You also don't have staging/production in there 
but switch the actual values in the default database.

> `EMAIL = [...]`

I am not sure a list makes sense here and would go for similarity with 
CACHES & DATABASES since you'd usually identify the backend via a unique 
name or so. Also DATABASES & CACHES have an OPTIONS dict which is the 
passed on to the backend, I think we should follow suit here.  

> Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...}

I do not think SMTP would be a good fit because many services allow HTTP 
submission, so what we are sending is actually an email and smtp is just a 
protocol implementation in the backend of AWS SES or so.

As for other email backends that do require different options: I do not see 
an issue when they simply take `EMAIL_AWS_SES_KEY` and document it as such; 
this doesn't require us to add more flexibility to email backends…

So I guess it boils down to the following questions:

 * Do we want to support multiple (at the same time) email backends, if yes 
we would move to a settings dict anyways…
 * If the answer to the above is no, what value does putting it into a 
single dict give us?

In the past I think I have argued for a SECURITY_HEADERS (or similar) dict 
because it allows us to check the dictionary keys easily for typos; emails 
probably don't suffer from that problem as badly as security related 
settings.

I hope this can get the discussion going.

Cheers,
Florian
On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 9:29:27 AM UTC+1 jacob...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well, that ticket is 8 years old and in the meantime other email backends 
> have emerged, requiring different configuration options.
> I made this proposal after attempting to fix a 14 year old open ticket 
> #6989 but this was ultimately postponed, see comment by
> Carlton Gibson on 
> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728#issuecomment-987762791
>
> To summarize the discussion from 7 years ago
>
> Collin Anderson wrote:
>
>> I don't see any benefit to moving email settings to a dictionary. It is 
>> helpful for databases and caches because there can be multiple backends.  
>
> It makes the popular "from local_settings import *" convention harder to 
>> use. What's wrong with 6 individual settings? If the goal is to allow
>
> multiple email backends, then let's make that the ticket goal.
>
>  
> and Carl Meyer replied:
>
>> I agree with Collin; unless we are adding new capabilities (i.e. multiple 
>> configured email backends, which it seems nobody really wants), it's hard 
>
> to find any actual benefit from this change to justify the churn (and the 
>> additional complexities of working with dictionary settings in 
>> partial-override scenarios).
>
>  
> why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you have 
> a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
> production
> you may for instance use AWSs SES 
>  service. That 
> service may require additional configuration settings not available in the 
> local smtp backend.
> I can also imagine that in some situations it may make sense to have two 
> email backends concurrently. We maybe should rethink about that.
>
>

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Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Jacob Rief]

Well, that ticket is 8 years old and in the meantime other email backends 
have emerged, requiring different configuration options.
I made this proposal after attempting to fix a 14 year old open ticket 
#6989 but this was ultimately postponed, see comment by
Carlton Gibson on 
https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728#issuecomment-987762791

To summarize the discussion from 7 years ago

Collin Anderson wrote:

> I don't see any benefit to moving email settings to a dictionary. It is 
> helpful for databases and caches because there can be multiple backends.  

It makes the popular "from local_settings import *" convention harder to 
> use. What's wrong with 6 individual settings? If the goal is to allow

multiple email backends, then let's make that the ticket goal.

 
and Carl Meyer replied:

> I agree with Collin; unless we are adding new capabilities (i.e. multiple 
> configured email backends, which it seems nobody really wants), it's hard 

to find any actual benefit from this change to justify the churn (and the 
> additional complexities of working with dictionary settings in 
> partial-override scenarios).

 
why shouldn't it makes sense to have different email backends? If you have 
a staging system you may want to use you local SMTP-relay, while in 
production
you may for instance use AWSs SES 
 service. That 
service may require additional configuration settings not available in the 
local smtp backend.
I can also imagine that in some situations it may make sense to have two 
email backends concurrently. We maybe should rethink about that.

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Re: Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Tim Graham]

The idea was pursued in https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/22734 but 
ultimately abandoned.
On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 6:01:30 PM UTC-5 jacob...@gmail.com wrote:

> This proposal attempts to address the following issues:
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/6989  (14 years old)
> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728
> and
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/31885
> https://github.com/django/django/pull/13305
>
> Currently all the parameters to configure the email backend are located
> in the global namespace, typically starting with EMAIL_...
> This in the past led to discussions whenever a new configuration parameter
> was required, because it added another entry to the yet too long list of 
> configuration
> settings.
>
> Since Django allows us to use more than one email backend concurrently,
> why don't we configure them in a similar way as we already do it with
> database, caching or template engine backends?
>
> Such a configuration setting then may look like:
>
> EMAIL = [
> {
> 'BACKEND': 'django.core.mail.backends.smtp.EmailBackend',
> 'HOST': 'smtp.example.org',
> 'HOST_USER': 'smtp_user',
> 'HOST_PASSWORD': 'smtp_secret',
> 'PORT': 25,
> 'FQDN': 'example.org',
> # all other related directives 
> }
> ]
>
> This would allow each email backend to "bring" its own configuration 
> settings
> contained in their own dictionary. Adding extra settings to this dict will 
> certainly
> lead to less discussions as we currently have.
>
> Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...} as the main configuration 
> directive, but EMAIL seems to be more popular in Django.
>
> This would mean that the configuration directives starting from here 
>  will 
> have
> to be replaced, by their counterparts as explained before.
>
>

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Proposal on how add configuration options to Email Backends

[Jacob Rief]

This proposal attempts to address the following issues:
https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/6989  (14 years old)
https://github.com/django/django/pull/13728
and
https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/31885
https://github.com/django/django/pull/13305

Currently all the parameters to configure the email backend are located
in the global namespace, typically starting with EMAIL_...
This in the past led to discussions whenever a new configuration parameter
was required, because it added another entry to the yet too long list of 
configuration
settings.

Since Django allows us to use more than one email backend concurrently,
why don't we configure them in a similar way as we already do it with
database, caching or template engine backends?

Such a configuration setting then may look like:

EMAIL = [
{
'BACKEND': 'django.core.mail.backends.smtp.EmailBackend',
'HOST': 'smtp.example.org',
'HOST_USER': 'smtp_user',
'HOST_PASSWORD': 'smtp_secret',
'PORT': 25,
'FQDN': 'example.org',
# all other related directives 
}
]

This would allow each email backend to "bring" its own configuration 
settings
contained in their own dictionary. Adding extra settings to this dict will 
certainly
lead to less discussions as we currently have.

Personally, I would prefer SMTP = {...} as the main configuration 
directive, but EMAIL seems to be more popular in Django.

This would mean that the configuration directives starting from here 
 will 
have
to be replaced, by their counterparts as explained before.

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