Re: Thinking about NoSQL support

[Alex Burgel]

On Sunday, September 8, 2013 2:20:56 AM UTC-4, Benjamin Zuill-Smith wrote:

>  The django-nonrel project is alive and looking for contributors.
>>
>
> Hi Alex, thanks for responding. I guess I was concerned by the lack of 
> commits lately, but looks like it's still alive and kicking by your post. 
> I'm interested in helping in this endeavor. I've been pouring over the docs 
> the past couple of days in my free time. I'm looking for some docs that 
> help newly interested people like me get familiar with the structure of 
> django files such as some kind of overall design architecture naming key 
> classes involved in underlying ORM, etc.
>
> Are there any such docs available?
>

There are two places you can start from. The best option is to just get an 
app up and running. If you're interested in mongodb, then you can take a 
look at the mongodb-engine docs here:

http://django-mongodb-engine.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

Alternatively, the original creators of the django-nonrel project wrote 
some pretty extensive blog posts while they were building it:

http://www.allbuttonspressed.com/projects/django-nonrel

Some of those docs are Google App Engine specific, but many of the concepts 
apply to mongodb as well.

Also, we have a separate mailing list here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-non-relational

Join that list (its low traffic) and we can discuss how you can help out.

Thanks!

--Alex

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Re: Thinking about NoSQL support

[Benjamin Zuill-Smith]

>
>  The django-nonrel project is alive and looking for contributors.
>

Hi Alex, thanks for responding. I guess I was concerned by the lack of 
commits lately, but looks like it's still alive and kicking by your post. 
I'm interested in helping in this endeavor. I've been pouring over the docs 
the past couple of days in my free time. I'm looking for some docs that 
help newly interested people like me get familiar with the structure of 
django files such as some kind of overall design architecture naming key 
classes involved in underlying ORM, etc.

Are there any such docs available?

Thanks all for the info. Sorry for stepping on NoSql toes. I agree, I still 
misuse it often.

On Friday, September 6, 2013 7:26:35 AM UTC-7, Alex Burgel wrote:
>
> On Thursday, September 5, 2013 4:12:26 PM UTC-4, Benjamin Zuill-Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> I've recently discovered Django and would love this framework in tandem 
>> with a NoSql solution like MongoDB. I know there is project called 
>> mongodb-engine but the solutions it brings feel hackish to me because it is 
>> not built into Django but added like middleware under the hood.  I'm weary 
>> of starting any real project using it. Are there any contributors out there 
>> considering adding native NoSql support? Plus, many NoSql solutions provide 
>> common functionality which could translate into a common interface which 
>> Django could provide.  I'd be interested to contribute to such an effort 
>> and I think it is worth looking into given the growth in NoSql solutions 
>> out there.
>>
>
> The django-nonrel project is alive and looking for contributors.
>
> http://www.django-nonrel.org/
>
> It currently supports App Engine and MongoDB. It officially runs on django 
> 1.3, 1.4, with support for 1.5 in beta.
>
> One of the goals of the project has been to become the official NoSQL 
> foundation for django. Currently we maintain a fork of django in order to 
> work around some SQL specific assumptions, but the changes are minimal and 
> many patches to fix this have been committed already. Once all the patches 
> are in, then django-nonrel is nothing more than another django.db backend. 
> This makes it very useful for projects that mix SQL and NoSQL databases.
>
> Obviously there are features in django that you can't use if the database 
> doesn't support them (JOINs, some aggregates, etc.). And there will also be 
> features in your database that you cannot access through the django ORM. 
> There's nothing to stop you from dropping into 'native' db code should you 
> need it. This is similar in concept to raw sql support in django... 
> sometimes you just to need to write the query by hand.
>
> As for the arguments that document/nosql/whatever db != relational db, its 
> close enough to not matter in a lot of very useful scenarios.
>
> --Alex
>

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Re: Thinking about NoSQL support

[Alex Burgel]

On Thursday, September 5, 2013 4:12:26 PM UTC-4, Benjamin Zuill-Smith wrote:

> I've recently discovered Django and would love this framework in tandem 
> with a NoSql solution like MongoDB. I know there is project called 
> mongodb-engine but the solutions it brings feel hackish to me because it is 
> not built into Django but added like middleware under the hood.  I'm weary 
> of starting any real project using it. Are there any contributors out there 
> considering adding native NoSql support? Plus, many NoSql solutions provide 
> common functionality which could translate into a common interface which 
> Django could provide.  I'd be interested to contribute to such an effort 
> and I think it is worth looking into given the growth in NoSql solutions 
> out there.
>

The django-nonrel project is alive and looking for contributors.

http://www.django-nonrel.org/

It currently supports App Engine and MongoDB. It officially runs on django 
1.3, 1.4, with support for 1.5 in beta.

One of the goals of the project has been to become the official NoSQL 
foundation for django. Currently we maintain a fork of django in order to 
work around some SQL specific assumptions, but the changes are minimal and 
many patches to fix this have been committed already. Once all the patches 
are in, then django-nonrel is nothing more than another django.db backend. 
This makes it very useful for projects that mix SQL and NoSQL databases.

Obviously there are features in django that you can't use if the database 
doesn't support them (JOINs, some aggregates, etc.). And there will also be 
features in your database that you cannot access through the django ORM. 
There's nothing to stop you from dropping into 'native' db code should you 
need it. This is similar in concept to raw sql support in django... 
sometimes you just to need to write the query by hand.

As for the arguments that document/nosql/whatever db != relational db, its 
close enough to not matter in a lot of very useful scenarios.

--Alex

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Re: Thinking about NoSQL support

[Curtis Maloney]

> > 
> > I wish people would stop abusing the term "NoSQL".  Your target concept
> is
> > Non-Relational data stores, not SQL itself.  There's a whole bunch of
> > relational stores that don't use SQL, one of them is even called NoSQL!)
> > 
>
> to me, "Non-Relational data stores" still sounds as precise as
> "non-elephant animals". barely better than NoSQL.
>
> I prefer to call each category by name.  in this case, "document-based
> storage".
>
>
You're singing my tune :)  But my issues with the "NoSQL" usage are (1) it
detracts from the existing project of that name , (2) it hides the true
intent of the "movement".  Hatred of SQL is a whole other bucket of bile :)

I do find it funny on many levels that people are raving about all these
other DB models as if they're new things :)

Anyway, this is OT... let's leave it for now :)

--
Curtis

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Re: Thinking about NoSQL support

[Javier Guerra Giraldez]

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Curtis Maloney
 wrote:
> But trying to shoe-horn a single API onto all models won't work.

+1 to this.

there are lots of kinds of databases, relational, hierarchical, object
based, key-value, document-based, column-oriented, graphs, spatial...

the "common subset" is almost an empty set unless you do it for each category.

still, some of these are on a category of its own, reducing the point
of an abstraction layer. (Redis anyone?)

> However, if you'd rather build an Object Document Mapper [ODM] to provide a
> consistent API for document databases, that could have some value.

An ODM with adaptors for MongoDB, CouchDB, maybe Cassandra (and even
PostgreSQL, which does a far-better-than-average work on this space)
could certainly be welcomed.

> 
> I wish people would stop abusing the term "NoSQL".  Your target concept is
> Non-Relational data stores, not SQL itself.  There's a whole bunch of
> relational stores that don't use SQL, one of them is even called NoSQL!)
> 

to me, "Non-Relational data stores" still sounds as precise as
"non-elephant animals". barely better than NoSQL.

I prefer to call each category by name.  in this case, "document-based storage".


-- 
Javier

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Re: Thinking about NoSQL support

[Curtis Maloney]

Well, there was the django-nonrel project, for trying to wrap
non-relational stores [such as Mongo] in a faux relational layer, so they
could then be wrapped in the ORM.

Always felt like a tremendous waste of resources to me -- why use a
non-relational store just to pretend it _is_ one?

My view is "horses for courses".  If you need the strengths of a relational
store, use one.  If you need the benefits of any of the non-relational
models [and there are many - models, and strengths] use them.

But trying to shoe-horn a single API onto all models won't work.

However, if you'd rather build an Object Document Mapper [ODM] to provide a
consistent API for document databases, that could have some value.

--
Curtis

I wish people would stop abusing the term "NoSQL".  Your target concept is
Non-Relational data stores, not SQL itself.  There's a whole bunch of
relational stores that don't use SQL, one of them is even called NoSQL!)




On 6 September 2013 06:12, Benjamin Zuill-Smith wrote:

> I've recently discovered Django and would love this framework in tandem
> with a NoSql solution like MongoDB. I know there is project called
> mongodb-engine but the solutions it brings feel hackish to me because it is
> not built into Django but added like middleware under the hood.  I'm weary
> of starting any real project using it. Are there any contributors out there
> considering adding native NoSql support? Plus, many NoSql solutions provide
> common functionality which could translate into a common interface which
> Django could provide.  I'd be interested to contribute to such an effort
> and I think it is worth looking into given the growth in NoSql solutions
> out there.
>
>
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>

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Thinking about NoSQL support

[Benjamin Zuill-Smith]

I've recently discovered Django and would love this framework in tandem 
with a NoSql solution like MongoDB. I know there is project called 
mongodb-engine but the solutions it brings feel hackish to me because it is 
not built into Django but added like middleware under the hood.  I'm weary 
of starting any real project using it. Are there any contributors out there 
considering adding native NoSql support? Plus, many NoSql solutions provide 
common functionality which could translate into a common interface which 
Django could provide.  I'd be interested to contribute to such an effort 
and I think it is worth looking into given the growth in NoSql solutions 
out there.


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