Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 08:44:22PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
> Gravis adaptivetime.com> writes:
>
> >
> > > * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg
> >
> > where did it move to before?
>
> i never removed the manual keyboard and mouse configuration
> options that i had installed years back. however as xorg has
> grown more features, one of them included "automatic udev
> device detection", meaning that you *could* run with a
> completely blank (or even missing) xorg.conf.
>
> however, many people did not remove their old (manual) keyboard
> and mouse configuration sections, so what the xorg team did was
> to add an entry (which defaults to "on") "Use auto configuration".
>
> when this flag is set, any entries which use kbd or mouse drivers
> are COMPLETELY IGNORED.
>
> unfortunately, then, if you disable udev (which i did), xorg
> doesn't detect a mouse or keyboard - or in fact *ANY* input
> device - AT ALL.
>
> so, as documented in the document i wrote, you have to (a)
> set a flag to tell xorg to stop using auto-device detection
> and (b) return to the situation that everyone put up with
> before auto-device detection support was added.
Thanks to your write-up, I've gotten Xorg working sans udev
(actually, simulated via overmounting with tmpfs and running mdev).
FYI, *this* was why I included "devinfo" in libsysdev:
for d in /dev/input/*; do DEV="`devinfo $d`"; [ -e "$DEV/name" ] && { echo $d;
cat $DEV/name; } ; done
/dev/input/event0
AT Translated Set 2 keyboard
/dev/input/event1
Video Bus
/dev/input/event10
SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
/dev/input/event2
Power Button
/dev/input/event3
Lid Switch
/dev/input/event4
Sleep Button
/dev/input/event5
Power Button
/dev/input/event6
HDA Digital PCBeep
/dev/input/event7
HDA Intel Mic
/dev/input/event8
HDA Intel Headphone
/dev/input/event9
Acer Crystal Eye webcam
/dev/input/mouse0
SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
It makes it a whole lot simpler when you don't have to guess what a
device is.
The trick is that input devices have a description at
/sys/dev/char/:/device/name
HTH,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 03:31:02AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > > > The thing that scares me because I suspect it's just not as well > > debugged as the software that used to run a car only a few years ago? > > > > > You overestimate the amount of debugging that goes into in-car software. I > once had an Alfa Romeo with a buggy implementation for it's tiptronic > gearbox. The gearbox going from 5th to reverse whilst doing 100MPH is not a > funny experience... You understand. It'll only get worse. -- hendrik, ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
> What exactly does IPC have to do with patching? the patching is done via IPC. --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Vlad <2389...@gmail.com> wrote: > What exactly does IPC have to do with patching? > > On Feb 15, 2015 5:22 PM, "Jaromil" wrote: >> >> >> hi >> >> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, jo...@trash-mail.com wrote: >> >> >As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next >> >Linux release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering >> >why, but >> >> yea read that back a year ago. makes sense. >> >> >there is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. >> >- OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. >> >> FINALLY! >> >> and I hope btrfs and zfs advance. I use the latter, real good stuff >> >> raidz and snapshotz to the masses >> >> >- Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux >> > even >> >though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. >> >> very interesting! is there already a signed firmware by those who >> cracked it? just like it was with the xbox? I guess so... there is >> plenty of those around, are they still low on RAM? >> >> >Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! >> >Who will maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on >> >to OpenSolaris, the only true Unix left? We have been warning >> >people of this happening, but they did not listen! >> >> >> trololololo >> >> >> ciao >> >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
What exactly does IPC have to do with patching? On Feb 15, 2015 5:22 PM, "Jaromil" wrote: > > hi > > On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, jo...@trash-mail.com wrote: > > >As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next > >Linux release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering > >why, but > > yea read that back a year ago. makes sense. > > >there is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. > >- OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. > > FINALLY! > > and I hope btrfs and zfs advance. I use the latter, real good stuff > > raidz and snapshotz to the masses > > >- Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux > even > >though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. > > very interesting! is there already a signed firmware by those who > cracked it? just like it was with the xbox? I guess so... there is > plenty of those around, are they still low on RAM? > > >Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > >Who will maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on > >to OpenSolaris, the only true Unix left? We have been warning > >people of this happening, but they did not listen! > > > trololololo > > > ciao > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
> > The thing that scares me because I suspect it's just not as well > debugged as the software that used to run a car only a few years ago? > > You overestimate the amount of debugging that goes into in-car software. I once had an Alfa Romeo with a buggy implementation for it's tiptronic gearbox. The gearbox going from 5th to reverse whilst doing 100MPH is not a funny experience... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:28:38PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> > And I've rebuilt >> > util-linux and removed libsystemd0 already. >> >> ohh, you are so lucky! can i add you to the list of successes? > > Sure, if you want to keep count. thanks. and also help people narrow down easier ways to achieve removal of libsystemd0 > Does "alsactl init" do anything for you, by some chance? > I just spent a day figuring out that that was what I needed to do, > after I realized I didn't have sound on a several month old system. doh! well it's related to qjackctl - i have a particularly complex audio setup. bypassing jackd and asking vlc to go directly to the alsa hardware works fine. ... i'll work it out :) l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
> possible From:Luke Leighton > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Today 01:44:25 PM > > > i believe you may be severely underestimating the workload that the > current debian maintainers handle. there are over 35,000 packages, > and i believe something like 1,000 maintainers. there are something > like 12 ports to different architectures, and the mirrors (of which > there are around a hundred) require something like 160 gigabytes of space > and tend to redline whatever network bandwidth they're allowed, > particularly during upgrades. > Actually, with respect, I'm not ignoring the size of Debian. I understand perfectly well what is involved. I do admit, I could have explained myself better. I'm all for using their upstream work, and even establishing a good working relationship with them for passing patches back to them. I'm not suggesting that Devuan start over. What I am saying is that Devuan should not concern itself with the day to day Debian's problems, such as Debian's release schedules or packaging decisions. In that respect Devuan needs to go its own way. The less Devuan feels pressured to keep in sync with Debian, the easier it will be for Devuan with a much smaller developer base. > > to expect even a medium-sized team to cope with 10 to 100 times the > workload which the current debian team handle, by dropping the entire > debian repository onto them and expecting them to be able to recompile > it and maintain it is... i think you'd agree, completely unrealistic. Yes, I would. If you will humor me, I would also point out that most of the people interested in Devuan or even Debian will be aiming for servers, not desktops. If they want something more than that, they will probably go elsewhere, because Debian's (and by extension Devuan's) repository is not refreshed fast enough for their taste. In that sense, user applications like Gimp and Libreoffice become less important. Personally, I think that Devuan could, even possibly should, consign them to a rolling release repo to be updated whenever Devuan has the time. The official Devuan release could just be the core Linux system, and a selection of the most reliable service daemons, which is something much more reasonable to ask from a smaller team. Furthermore, I know the decision has been made and I am not trying to change it, but I'd like to express the opinion that Devuan being based on Debian testing makes things much harder than they need to be. I would have chosen to base Devuan on Debian stable instead. Before anyone protests, please consider that: 1. If Devuan was based on Debian stable, then Devuan would not be hostage to whatever release schedule Debian has. If Debian Jesse is a year late - which has happened to Debian before - then Devuan is a year late, if only by proxy. 2. As Jesse stands right now, you have to excise systemd before Jesse is even finished, which makes doing so something of a moving target, especially if Debian changes chains of packages upstream, making you have to start the same process all over again. 3. With the exception of a few things, generally speaking user applications do not use systemd and are virtually agnostic, even in binary form. They will usually run reliably on any Linux as long as the core system libraries meet a minimum. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:28:38PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:07 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 05:49:54PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > wrote: > >> http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system > >> > >> if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively > >> engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to > >> choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the "+" button > >> on the above submission. > > > > Done, I think. (I use NoScript, so...I guess the "+" button sticking > > means it worked...) > > it's up and happily collecting comments. > > > Reading it I noticed "dbus, pulseaudio, policykit-1" - I only recompiled > > util-linux. Checked in Aptitude, and I don't have dbus installed. > > (I have libdbus installed, but not the dbus daemon, pulse, or policykit.) > .. > you are lucky :) i run a wide range of software as part of my > business so i have quite a bit more around. > > > boot system into non-functional state due to udev not working? > > Huh? udev works fine for me (Debian Jessie). > > bizarre! can you remember if, as a result of recompiling and > installing the util-linux packages, initrds were regenerated at all? > (it's done in a postinst hook somewhere) I don't remember. Actually...grepping /root/.bash_history, I see I only installed the bsdutils package (which is the only one depending on libsystemd). I would assume that means there was not regeneration at that point, but I've updated the other util-linux packages, udev, and the kernel since. I've also gotten my system to boot using mdev, but not to udev-less X. So I disabled mdev. The system in question is Jessie, downgraded from sid a couple months ago. (I enabled Jessie repos, apt-pinned at much higher priority, updated, let apt downgrade everything it wanted to, and disabled sid repos and the apt pinning.) It's new enough that I don't have an Xorg.conf. > > And I've rebuilt > > util-linux and removed libsystemd0 already. > > ohh, you are so lucky! can i add you to the list of successes? Sure, if you want to keep count. > > Or are you trying to remove udev as well? > > no i'm not - it just... the entire system froze on me at checking the > udev entries. but, at the time, i didn't have makedev installed. > > well... there may be hope then that i can actually get udev back up > and running. this would be good as sound is not coming out of the > speakers at the moment. volume's set, etc. etc. - just no sound. Does "alsactl init" do anything for you, by some chance? I just spent a day figuring out that that was what I needed to do, after I realized I didn't have sound on a several month old system. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Dragan FOSS gmx.com> writes: > > > > i would be most grateful therefore if you could make it much more > > convenient for me to be able to do this, whilst still keeping all the > > debian, TDE and deb-multimedia repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list > > that i have today, by keeping the devuan project strictly focussed on > > providing alternative packages instead of polarising the GNU/Linux > > community even further than pottering has already done (by devuan not > > creating an ubuntu-style total distro fork). > > This IS already done :) good! i guess you may have seen that i am advocating that the devuan team keep it this way, and do not attempt - with the limited resources that you have - to extend to an ubuntu-style fork. it will overwhelm you, as well as make it harder for people to consider trusting devuan, harder for them to consider returning to debian, and more besides - all of it bad. l. > - > [root trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# inxi -r > Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:07 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 05:49:54PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system >> >> if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively >> engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to >> choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the "+" button >> on the above submission. > > Done, I think. (I use NoScript, so...I guess the "+" button sticking > means it worked...) it's up and happily collecting comments. > Reading it I noticed "dbus, pulseaudio, policykit-1" - I only recompiled > util-linux. Checked in Aptitude, and I don't have dbus installed. > (I have libdbus installed, but not the dbus daemon, pulse, or policykit.) .. you are lucky :) i run a wide range of software as part of my business so i have quite a bit more around. > boot system into non-functional state due to udev not working? > Huh? udev works fine for me (Debian Jessie). bizarre! can you remember if, as a result of recompiling and installing the util-linux packages, initrds were regenerated at all? (it's done in a postinst hook somewhere) > And I've rebuilt > util-linux and removed libsystemd0 already. ohh, you are so lucky! can i add you to the list of successes? > Or are you trying to remove udev as well? no i'm not - it just... the entire system froze on me at checking the udev entries. but, at the time, i didn't have makedev installed. well... there may be hope then that i can actually get udev back up and running. this would be good as sound is not coming out of the speakers at the moment. volume's set, etc. etc. - just no sound. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 05:49:54PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system > > if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively > engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to > choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the "+" button > on the above submission. Done, I think. (I use NoScript, so...I guess the "+" button sticking means it worked...) Reading it I noticed "dbus, pulseaudio, policykit-1" - I only recompiled util-linux. Checked in Aptitude, and I don't have dbus installed. (I have libdbus installed, but not the dbus daemon, pulse, or policykit.) ... boot system into non-functional state due to udev not working? Huh? udev works fine for me (Debian Jessie). And I've rebuilt util-linux and removed libsystemd0 already. Or are you trying to remove udev as well? I start X manually, as you do. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu
Thanks Jaromil, Katolaz and the Devuan Team! This must be the best news for 2015!! - Original Message - From: "KatolaZ" To: Cc: Sent:Sun, 15 Feb 2015 11:37:41 + Subject:Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 02:52:12AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > Hi guys, > > a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine installed and > running on qemu: > > 0)# wget "http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso"; > > 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm Well, naturally it was: 0)$ wget "http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso"; and 1)# apt-get install qemu-kvm Sorry, but I was almost asleep :) HH KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
> http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system > > if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively > engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to > choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the "+" button > on the above submission. added on http://neofutur.net/systemd-vault and buzzed that on irc ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 16:27:55 + > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 > from debian and still maintaining a working desktop > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > the reason why i am informing you of this is as encouragement so that > you know it *can be done*. > > i would be most grateful therefore if you could make it much more > convenient for me to be able to do this, whilst still keeping all the > debian, TDE and deb-multimedia repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list > that i have today, by keeping the devuan project strictly focussed on > providing alternative packages instead of polarising the GNU/Linux > community even further than pottering has already done (by devuan not > creating an ubuntu-style total distro fork). This IS already done :) - [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# inxi -r Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/trios.list deb http://mirror.org.rs/trios/ mia main non-systemd-testing zfs [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy systemd systemd: Installed: (none) Candidate: (none) Package pin: (not found) Version table: 215-11 -1 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy libsystemd0 libsystemd0: Installed: (none) Candidate: (none) Package pin: (not found) Version table: 215-11 -1 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy lightdm lightdm: Installed: 1.10.3-3 Candidate: 1.10.3-3 Version table: *** 1.10.3-3 0 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy xfce4 xfce4: Installed: 4.10.1 Candidate: 4.10.1 Version table: *** 4.10.1 0 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy skype skype:i386: Installed: 4.3.0.37-1 Candidate: 4.3.0.37-1 Version table: *** 4.3.0.37-1 0 1001 http://mirror.org.rs/trios/ mia/main i386 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# -- https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs-rc1.3057 DL link: http://mirror.org.rs/image/TRIOS-Mia-RC1-Build_2015-01-08.iso ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Gravis adaptivetime.com> writes: > > > * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg > > where did it move to before? i never removed the manual keyboard and mouse configuration options that i had installed years back. however as xorg has grown more features, one of them included "automatic udev device detection", meaning that you *could* run with a completely blank (or even missing) xorg.conf. however, many people did not remove their old (manual) keyboard and mouse configuration sections, so what the xorg team did was to add an entry (which defaults to "on") "Use auto configuration". when this flag is set, any entries which use kbd or mouse drivers are COMPLETELY IGNORED. unfortunately, then, if you disable udev (which i did), xorg doesn't detect a mouse or keyboard - or in fact *ANY* input device - AT ALL. so, as documented in the document i wrote, you have to (a) set a flag to tell xorg to stop using auto-device detection and (b) return to the situation that everyone put up with before auto-device detection support was added. personally i see this as being no hardship at all. within hours i have retrained my hands to sit further away from the now completely hyper-sensitive trackpad that activates without my consent to move the cursor to completely random positions on screen. if it really annoys me too much i will simply "rmmod bcm5974". problem solved :) in fact, why don't i do that right now :) l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
karl please refresh and double-check the update for pulseaudio, i spotted that two mentions of libsystemd dev packages are still in the pulseaudio debian/control file. having removed those (locally) and reinstalled the resultant packages, i've just been able to successfully remove libsystemd0:amd64 and i still have a functional desktop system. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
> No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or > the safety of the user interfaces. there are a few ways this could change. - a single senator/congressman has their ride hacked/bricked - several people die in fiery car wrecks from bad code or a virus - a self-propagating virus bricks millions of cars so... the question is if should we wait for bad things to happen to lots of people or should we brick one jerk's limo. --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:50:53PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: >> IVI == "In-Vehicle Infotainment." The stuff that runs your new car's UI. > > The thing that scares me because I suspect it's just not as well > debugged as the software that used to run a car only a few years ago? > > Well, what scares me it that the entertainment hardware doesn't seem to > be isolated from the more essential stuff that actually, you know, > drives that car. And the entertainment stuff is just being piled on > willy-nilly. And there are now touch screens that you have to use > while driving. Whatever happened to keeping one's eyes on the > road? > > No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or > the safety of the user interfaces. > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
> * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg where did it move to before? xorg.conf is something that should never go away. --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Luke Leighton wrote: > aspodata.se> writes: > >> >> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl.net>: >> > http://lkcl.net/reports/removing_systemd_from_debian/ >> >> I'll try that. > > awesome. if you'd like to keep in touch (through this list > if that's ok with the dng team?) i can perhaps advise if you > get stuck. it would be interesting also to know what packages > you have that are dependent on libsystemd0. for example, > i removed cups-daemon, but you might need it. > >> > * disabling udev >> > * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg >> > * adding a huge number of manual entries to /etc/modules >> >> I'm fine with that, and I compiles my own kernels. > > great. if you've dealt with linux for a long time you probably > remember what it was like to edit xorg.conf, or, maybe, like me, > you have sections that are still there and just had to update them > :) > > also i feel that anyone who has dealt with embedded systems > such as openembedded, opie/familiar and so on, this really should > not be hard for them, either. > > l. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:50:53PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: > IVI == "In-Vehicle Infotainment." The stuff that runs your new car's UI. The thing that scares me because I suspect it's just not as well debugged as the software that used to run a car only a few years ago? Well, what scares me it that the entertainment hardware doesn't seem to be isolated from the more essential stuff that actually, you know, drives that car. And the entertainment stuff is just being piled on willy-nilly. And there are now touch screens that you have to use while driving. Whatever happened to keeping one's eyes on the road? No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or the safety of the user interfaces. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
T.J. Duchene gmail.com> writes: > > If I might add my opinion to the discussion, I will be very clear in saying > that even attempting to stay somewhat in sync with Debian is a waste of > valuable time and effort, and deserves a resounding “No” vote. haaang on... :) > the subject of systemd, but I'll be as direct as I can when I say that if > Devuan does not go its own way, completely and entirely without compromise, > it's going to “whither on the vine” under the sheer workload of spending > increasing time to trying maintain package compatibility for people who want > to jump back and forth. i believe you may be severely underestimating the workload that the current debian maintainers handle. there are over 35,000 packages, and i believe something like 1,000 maintainers. there are something like 12 ports to different architectures, and the mirrors (of which there are around a hundred) require something like 160 gigabytes of space and tend to redline whatever network bandwidth they're allowed, particularly during upgrades. debian is *big*. to expect even a medium-sized team to cope with 10 to 100 times the workload which the current debian team handle, by dropping the entire debian repository onto them and expecting them to be able to recompile it and maintain it is... i think you'd agree, completely unrealistic. i believe you'd agree that by comparison, maintaining even fifty packages amongst a team of say even five people is something that could conceivably be managed on an emergency day-to-day basis. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
aspodata.se> writes: > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl.net>: > > http://lkcl.net/reports/removing_systemd_from_debian/ > > I'll try that. awesome. if you'd like to keep in touch (through this list if that's ok with the dng team?) i can perhaps advise if you get stuck. it would be interesting also to know what packages you have that are dependent on libsystemd0. for example, i removed cups-daemon, but you might need it. > > * disabling udev > > * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg > > * adding a huge number of manual entries to /etc/modules > > I'm fine with that, and I compiles my own kernels. great. if you've dealt with linux for a long time you probably remember what it was like to edit xorg.conf, or, maybe, like me, you have sections that are still there and just had to update them :) also i feel that anyone who has dealt with embedded systems such as openembedded, opie/familiar and so on, this really should not be hard for them, either. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Le 15/02/2015 19:36, Nate Bargmann a écrit : * On 2015 15 Feb 07:33 -0600, Vince Mulhollon wrote: Meanwhile the devs can't eat their own dogfood because they're not utter noobs, and nobody wants the featurelist marketing is pushing. Indeed. I've followed Planet Debian for some time and do read LWN semi regularly. It astonished me at first to read of $RANDOM_DEVELOPER using a Apple laptop at a Linux development conference. Okay, fine, if they're dual-booting and actually running a Linux based desktop, but, sadly, they often are not and are instead running whatever Linux thing they're demonstrating in a VM. This is a large crux of the problem as I see it--developers unwilling to use what they write not only at work but on their own time. Down the road I would hope that when the Devuan project has developer conferences that someone showing up with a proprietary OS running Devuan in a VM would be kindly shown the door! ;-) Why FOSS projects feel the need to emulate this toxic corporate culture is a complete mystery, but they certainly do a good job of it. I really give credence to the line of thought that a lot of these developers have been poured in by the very corporate structures they're bringing to our systems. They have been given projects as part of their employment and probably do not understand nor care for the community as it existed up to four or five years ago (c.f. comments that the community is "harsh" or "difficult to work with). To me this is the result of a major culture clash and this "modern" Linux is the result. Prior to that point in time development was largely grassroots and organic. We were told that such was a "problem" for Linux to go "mainstream". Today we have this mess that looks to be expanding (do the Debian developers even know what's in store once the Sid repository opens up after the release of Jessie?) nearly exponentially and the mantra is that everything that is "old" (read, mostly debugged and stable) must be swept aside for "mainstream acceptance". Now I need to go and get the valentine ISO and play in a VM (on my Debian desktop, of course)! :-) - Nate This move happened in the last decade. I understand it as computing departments understanding that it was more expensive to pay people to install and maintain Linux on PCs and laptops than buy Macs for their employees. And the employees are proud because their Mac is shiny and EXPENSIVE. They would feel ashamed to have something cheaper. And even the developpers, who are perfectly able to install Linux, would feel ashamed to not have a Mac, maybe only because knote is more shiny than libre-office. And running Linux in a VM is more productive than dual-boot because you can vave both in the same time. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
* On 2015 15 Feb 07:33 -0600, Vince Mulhollon wrote: > Meanwhile the devs can't eat their own dogfood because they're not utter > noobs, and nobody wants the featurelist marketing is pushing. Indeed. I've followed Planet Debian for some time and do read LWN semi regularly. It astonished me at first to read of $RANDOM_DEVELOPER using a Apple laptop at a Linux development conference. Okay, fine, if they're dual-booting and actually running a Linux based desktop, but, sadly, they often are not and are instead running whatever Linux thing they're demonstrating in a VM. This is a large crux of the problem as I see it--developers unwilling to use what they write not only at work but on their own time. Down the road I would hope that when the Devuan project has developer conferences that someone showing up with a proprietary OS running Devuan in a VM would be kindly shown the door! ;-) > Why FOSS projects feel the need to emulate this toxic corporate culture is > a complete mystery, but they certainly do a good job of it. I really give credence to the line of thought that a lot of these developers have been poured in by the very corporate structures they're bringing to our systems. They have been given projects as part of their employment and probably do not understand nor care for the community as it existed up to four or five years ago (c.f. comments that the community is "harsh" or "difficult to work with). To me this is the result of a major culture clash and this "modern" Linux is the result. Prior to that point in time development was largely grassroots and organic. We were told that such was a "problem" for Linux to go "mainstream". Today we have this mess that looks to be expanding (do the Debian developers even know what's in store once the Sid repository opens up after the release of Jessie?) nearly exponentially and the mantra is that everything that is "old" (read, mostly debugged and stable) must be swept aside for "mainstream acceptance". Now I need to go and get the valentine ISO and play in a VM (on my Debian desktop, of course)! :-) - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
IVI == "In-Vehicle Infotainment." The stuff that runs your new car's UI. On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Gravis wrote: > Jude, > > i'm glad at least one of us is following the kdbus conversation. > advanced authentication is exactly what i wanted added to unix domain > sockets, so kdbus sounds nice as long as it works as advertised. as a > POSIX enthusiast, i wish they had merely extended unix domain sockets > so that it could proposed as an extension of the spec. maybe there is > still time to do this before kdbus becomes too heavily used. question > though what is "IVI"? > --Gravis > > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Jude Nelson wrote: > > I think we're significantly overblowing the impact of kdbus. > > > > I've been following the development of kdbus, and kdbus alone is just > > another way to send bytes from one process to others. In a nutshell, it > > creates a namespace of special character files that have some interesting > > properties. Namely, a single writer can send large (~gigabytes) amounts > of > > data to many readers in a zero-copy manner, and writers can require > readers > > to authenticate at runtime using something like UNIX domain socket > > credentials. At the end of the day, it's not terribly different from a > > namespace of UNIX domain sockets, and if you follow the conversations on > > lkml, you'll see people asking the developers why they didn't just make > the > > UNIX domain socket implementation better (why they didn't is still a > > question that has not been answered to my satisfaction, but > whatever--I'll > > just compile it out if I don't like it). > > > > The code required to set up kdbus from userspace is currently handled by > > systemd, but it isn't that tricky. We might have to modify sysvinit or > dbus > > to do it instead, but it's doable. > > > > The future of userspace dbus isn't in question over this, at least in the > > medium-term. The userspace dbus we have now will continue to run as > normal, > > since it uses UNIX domain sockets behind the scenes to push bytes around. > > The new dbus implemented in systemd offers the same interface, but uses > > kdbus to push bytes around, and takes advantage of kdbus's authentication > > mechanisms as well as a few other subtle things instead (like the notion > of > > an atomic "send-message-only-if-receiver-has-not-closed"). In both > cases, > > the data validation and marshalling continue to run in userspace. > > > > The future for applications on !Linux that assume that dbus is capable of > > sending gigabytes of RAM to a bunch of other processes, however, looks > > bleak, unless !Linux add their own kdbus-like IPC. What I'd like to > know, > > however, is which applications these are. Apparently, the stakeholders > that > > come up repeatedly on lkml are IVI developers, so I'm guessing that the > > applicability of kdbus-powered dbus is pretty small. > > > > -Jude > > > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Gravis > wrote: > >> > >> > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > >> > >> i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too > >> dangerous. > >> --Gravis > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:09 AM, wrote: > >> > As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next Linux > >> > release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering why, but > >> > there > >> > is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. > >> > > >> > - OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. > >> > - Many Intel DRM graphics driver improvements. > >> > - Improvements to KVM for bettering Linux virtualization. > >> > - TPM 2.0 support for trusted computing. > >> > - Live kernel patching support via KDBUS. > >> > - Fixes to the F2FS file-system. > >> > - Some basic changes to XFS. > >> > - An important AMD Hawaii GPU re-clocking fix. > >> > - Full IBM z13 system support. > >> > - Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux > even > >> > though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. > >> > - Sound improvements, particularly around bettering the support for HP > >> > laptops. > >> > - The usual plethora of ACPI / power management updates. > >> > - New and updated input drivers and new HID hardware support. > >> > - Numerous media driver improvements. > >> > > >> > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! Who > will > >> > maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on to > >> > OpenSolaris, > >> > the only true Unix left? We have been warning people of this > happening, > >> > but > >> > they did not listen! > >> > > >> > ___ > >> > Dng mailing list > >> > Dng@lists.dyne.org > >> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > >> > > >> ___ > >> Dng mailing list > >> Dng@lists.dyne.org > >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > > _
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the "+" button on the above submission. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
Jude, i'm glad at least one of us is following the kdbus conversation. advanced authentication is exactly what i wanted added to unix domain sockets, so kdbus sounds nice as long as it works as advertised. as a POSIX enthusiast, i wish they had merely extended unix domain sockets so that it could proposed as an extension of the spec. maybe there is still time to do this before kdbus becomes too heavily used. question though what is "IVI"? --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Jude Nelson wrote: > I think we're significantly overblowing the impact of kdbus. > > I've been following the development of kdbus, and kdbus alone is just > another way to send bytes from one process to others. In a nutshell, it > creates a namespace of special character files that have some interesting > properties. Namely, a single writer can send large (~gigabytes) amounts of > data to many readers in a zero-copy manner, and writers can require readers > to authenticate at runtime using something like UNIX domain socket > credentials. At the end of the day, it's not terribly different from a > namespace of UNIX domain sockets, and if you follow the conversations on > lkml, you'll see people asking the developers why they didn't just make the > UNIX domain socket implementation better (why they didn't is still a > question that has not been answered to my satisfaction, but whatever--I'll > just compile it out if I don't like it). > > The code required to set up kdbus from userspace is currently handled by > systemd, but it isn't that tricky. We might have to modify sysvinit or dbus > to do it instead, but it's doable. > > The future of userspace dbus isn't in question over this, at least in the > medium-term. The userspace dbus we have now will continue to run as normal, > since it uses UNIX domain sockets behind the scenes to push bytes around. > The new dbus implemented in systemd offers the same interface, but uses > kdbus to push bytes around, and takes advantage of kdbus's authentication > mechanisms as well as a few other subtle things instead (like the notion of > an atomic "send-message-only-if-receiver-has-not-closed"). In both cases, > the data validation and marshalling continue to run in userspace. > > The future for applications on !Linux that assume that dbus is capable of > sending gigabytes of RAM to a bunch of other processes, however, looks > bleak, unless !Linux add their own kdbus-like IPC. What I'd like to know, > however, is which applications these are. Apparently, the stakeholders that > come up repeatedly on lkml are IVI developers, so I'm guessing that the > applicability of kdbus-powered dbus is pretty small. > > -Jude > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Gravis wrote: >> >> > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! >> >> i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too >> dangerous. >> --Gravis >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:09 AM, wrote: >> > As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next Linux >> > release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering why, but >> > there >> > is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. >> > >> > - OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. >> > - Many Intel DRM graphics driver improvements. >> > - Improvements to KVM for bettering Linux virtualization. >> > - TPM 2.0 support for trusted computing. >> > - Live kernel patching support via KDBUS. >> > - Fixes to the F2FS file-system. >> > - Some basic changes to XFS. >> > - An important AMD Hawaii GPU re-clocking fix. >> > - Full IBM z13 system support. >> > - Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux even >> > though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. >> > - Sound improvements, particularly around bettering the support for HP >> > laptops. >> > - The usual plethora of ACPI / power management updates. >> > - New and updated input drivers and new HID hardware support. >> > - Numerous media driver improvements. >> > >> > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! Who will >> > maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on to >> > OpenSolaris, >> > the only true Unix left? We have been warning people of this happening, >> > but >> > they did not listen! >> > >> > ___ >> > Dng mailing list >> > Dng@lists.dyne.org >> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> > >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On 02/15/2015 05:40 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26:01AM -0500, Gravis wrote: >>> Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! That would make it a circular dependency... and circular dependencies always kill themselves. :) Also, it (hopefully) won't depend on systemd-udev, systemd-logind, etc. only some interface that you can clone somewhere else. The big problem is that the interface is not standard, modular, or community driven; I expect it won't kill other inits unless the maintainers are lazy. >> i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too dangerous. >> --Gravis > But why would it have to depend on systemd? > > -- hendrik > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
I think we're significantly overblowing the impact of kdbus. I've been following the development of kdbus, and kdbus alone is just another way to send bytes from one process to others. In a nutshell, it creates a namespace of special character files that have some interesting properties. Namely, a single writer can send large (~gigabytes) amounts of data to many readers in a zero-copy manner, and writers can require readers to authenticate at runtime using something like UNIX domain socket credentials. At the end of the day, it's not terribly different from a namespace of UNIX domain sockets, and if you follow the conversations on lkml, you'll see people asking the developers why they didn't just make the UNIX domain socket implementation better (why they didn't is still a question that has not been answered to my satisfaction, but whatever--I'll just compile it out if I don't like it). The code required to set up kdbus from userspace is currently handled by systemd, but it isn't that tricky. We might have to modify sysvinit or dbus to do it instead, but it's doable. The future of userspace dbus isn't in question over this, at least in the medium-term. The userspace dbus we have now will continue to run as normal, since it uses UNIX domain sockets behind the scenes to push bytes around. The new dbus implemented in systemd offers the same interface, but uses kdbus to push bytes around, and takes advantage of kdbus's authentication mechanisms as well as a few other subtle things instead (like the notion of an atomic "send-message-only-if-receiver-has-not-closed"). In both cases, the data validation and marshalling continue to run in userspace. The future for applications on !Linux that assume that dbus is capable of sending gigabytes of RAM to a bunch of other processes, however, looks bleak, unless !Linux add their own kdbus-like IPC. What I'd like to know, however, is which applications these are. Apparently, the stakeholders that come up repeatedly on lkml are IVI developers, so I'm guessing that the applicability of kdbus-powered dbus is pretty small. -Jude On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26 AM, Gravis wrote: > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > > i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too dangerous. > --Gravis > > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:09 AM, wrote: > > As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next Linux > > release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering why, but > there > > is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. > > > > - OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. > > - Many Intel DRM graphics driver improvements. > > - Improvements to KVM for bettering Linux virtualization. > > - TPM 2.0 support for trusted computing. > > - Live kernel patching support via KDBUS. > > - Fixes to the F2FS file-system. > > - Some basic changes to XFS. > > - An important AMD Hawaii GPU re-clocking fix. > > - Full IBM z13 system support. > > - Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux even > > though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. > > - Sound improvements, particularly around bettering the support for HP > > laptops. > > - The usual plethora of ACPI / power management updates. > > - New and updated input drivers and new HID hardware support. > > - Numerous media driver improvements. > > > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! Who will > > maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on to OpenSolaris, > > the only true Unix left? We have been warning people of this happening, > but > > they did not listen! > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > http://lkcl.net/reports/removing_systemd_from_debian/ I'll try that. ... > the desktop that i run is *not* a normal one, by any means. i run > fvwm2 with a 6x4 virtual desktop, which is started up with "startx &" > - there is no display manager and i do not want to run one (ever). i > start up a series of commands that i need (firefox, alsa-mixer, xchat, > qjackctl) from the ~/.xinitrc file, and the only command i really ever > run from the fvwm menu is "xterm", in which i then type "xpdf > filename" and so on. ... > * disabling udev > * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg > * adding a huge number of manual entries to /etc/modules I'm fine with that, and I compiles my own kernels. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26:01AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > > i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too dangerous. > --Gravis But why would it have to depend on systemd? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
http://lkcl.net/reports/removing_systemd_from_debian/ if you recall, yesterday i mentioned that i do not take risks with my business-critical laptop... except by about 5am i had completed most of the process of doing precisely that. the desktop that i run is *not* a normal one, by any means. i run fvwm2 with a 6x4 virtual desktop, which is started up with "startx &" - there is no display manager and i do not want to run one (ever). i start up a series of commands that i need (firefox, alsa-mixer, xchat, qjackctl) from the ~/.xinitrc file, and the only command i really ever run from the fvwm menu is "xterm", in which i then type "xpdf filename" and so on. so i am a good candidate for being able to at least try out some unusual "manual libsystemd0" removal techniques. BE WARNED. this involved: * disabling udev * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg * adding a huge number of manual entries to /etc/modules however, i can now say that i am well on the way to removing libsystemd0. my next task (because i have multiarch i386 packages installed due to formerly running wine:i386 as well as running skype which is only available in i386 form) is to follow the exact same compilation process under an i386 debootstrapped chroot, to create the required i386 deb packages and install them. once that is done i will be able to do an "apt-get --purge remove libsystemd0:amd64 libsystemd0:i386" and i will be entirely free of systemd *and still have a functioning desktop". the reason why i am informing you of this is as encouragement so that you know it *can be done*. i would be most grateful therefore if you could make it much more convenient for me to be able to do this, whilst still keeping all the debian, TDE and deb-multimedia repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list that i have today, by keeping the devuan project strictly focussed on providing alternative packages instead of polarising the GNU/Linux community even further than pottering has already done (by devuan not creating an ubuntu-style total distro fork). l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Sun, 2/15/15, Steve Litt wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, February 15, 2015, 9:20 AM On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 22:27:04 +0100 Nikolaus Klepp wrote: [cut] Hi Nik, You paint a tempting picture. I'm a special case, in that I long ago made a policy decision to allow absolutely no KDE libraries on my computers, and I long ago jettisoned Kmail from my life. But maybe some day I'll put TDE on a laptop, and evaluate it. Most people don't have the same level of KDE aversion I do, and for them, TDE just might be great, although I don't see how anyone could use Kmail, for almost the same reasons I cant see how anyone could use systemd. By the way, Nik, you're about the fifth person I've heard speaking glowingly of TDE in the last two months. TDE must be doing something right! Steve You are not the only one with an aversion to KDE. I once made the mistake of installing KDE and my menu turned into an absolute mess with all those 'k'apps. I recently booted dzz's Exe GNU/Linux and though it was very well put together, the KDE aversion was still alive and well making it a no-go for me. Different strokes and all . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
> Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too dangerous. --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:09 AM, wrote: > As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next Linux > release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering why, but there > is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. > > - OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. > - Many Intel DRM graphics driver improvements. > - Improvements to KVM for bettering Linux virtualization. > - TPM 2.0 support for trusted computing. > - Live kernel patching support via KDBUS. > - Fixes to the F2FS file-system. > - Some basic changes to XFS. > - An important AMD Hawaii GPU re-clocking fix. > - Full IBM z13 system support. > - Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux even > though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. > - Sound improvements, particularly around bettering the support for HP > laptops. > - The usual plethora of ACPI / power management updates. > - New and updated input drivers and new HID hardware support. > - Numerous media driver improvements. > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! Who will > maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on to OpenSolaris, > the only true Unix left? We have been warning people of this happening, but > they did not listen! > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 22:27:04 +0100 Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Hi Steve! > > When you remove all extra stuff from TDE then you end up with a sytem > thats still superior to XFCE. I'll just hilight the things I like > most (only the base system, not the extra applications): > - one cental configuriation tool for all aspects of TDE. > - very fine grained configuration > - single mouse click works as one would expect. > - window behaviour configurable from "gerneral" down to "single > window class" or "title" > - session manager works (well, firefox does not play nicely, but > then, where does it?) > - konqeror simply works (as filemanager, KHTML has not been replaced > by webkit but it's WIP when I recall correctly) > - kmail. fast, reliable, and uses maildir (one file per mail), a big > plus when it comes to backups and doing neet stuff with mails. > - has a desktop (downside: xsnow does not play nice). > - acessability simply works. (Sticky keys, self releasing keys, ) > - no nepomuck / zeitgeist. > - all configs cleartext. > > I like it so much that I still try to get it working on FreeBSD - > currently I'm running FVWM :-) > > Nik Hi Nik, You paint a tempting picture. I'm a special case, in that I long ago made a policy decision to allow absolutely no KDE libraries on my computers, and I long ago jettisoned Kmail from my life. But maybe some day I'll put TDE on a laptop, and evaluate it. Most people don't have the same level of KDE aversion I do, and for them, TDE just might be great, although I don't see how anyone could use Kmail, for almost the same reasons I cant see how anyone could use systemd. By the way, Nik, you're about the fifth person I've heard speaking glowingly of TDE in the last two months. TDE must be doing something right! Steve Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Isaac Dunham wrote: > I'm wondering what /etc/apt/sources.list looks like; I've tried pointing > mine at > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan jessie main that is not yet ready, thats why is called pre-alpha : ) you can use debians to install more sw to test mate is pretty nice ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
hi On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, jo...@trash-mail.com wrote: >As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next >Linux release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering >why, but yea read that back a year ago. makes sense. >there is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. >- OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. FINALLY! and I hope btrfs and zfs advance. I use the latter, real good stuff raidz and snapshotz to the masses >- Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux even >though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality. very interesting! is there already a signed firmware by those who cracked it? just like it was with the xbox? I guess so... there is plenty of those around, are they still low on RAM? >Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! >Who will maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on >to OpenSolaris, the only true Unix left? We have been warning >people of this happening, but they did not listen! trololololo ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next Linux release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering why, but there is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version.- OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers.- Many Intel DRM graphics driver improvements.- Improvements to KVM for bettering Linux virtualization.- TPM 2.0 support for trusted computing.- Live kernel patching support via KDBUS.- Fixes to the F2FS file-system.- Some basic changes to XFS.- An important AMD Hawaii GPU re-clocking fix.- Full IBM z13 system support.- Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux even though Sony no longer supports the "Other OS" functionality.- Sound improvements, particularly around bettering the support for HP laptops.- The usual plethora of ACPI / power management updates.- New and updated input drivers and new HID hardware support.- Numerous media driver improvements. Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! Who will maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on to OpenSolaris, the only true Unix left? We have been warning people of this happening, but they did not listen! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:26:45AM -0500, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com wrote: > > I agree that use of C has lessened, and that less of us understand C > today. I disagree that this is necessarily the cause of the problem. > Personally, I think that anything that *can* be written in Python, > Perl, Ruby or Lua *should* be written in one of those languages, > because doing so limits buffer overruns to those remaining in the > language. I'd prefer a statically typed language. Otherwise Python and Lua have about the right language level. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:16:42PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > Isn't Bastille a set of scripts to harden Debian security? > Well, IMMHO, Devuan shouldn't need such a collection if said security > was default (which should be). I don't know what Bastille is supposed to do. But its security provisions might be helpful for some applications and obnoxious for others. If installed by default, it should be optional. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 12:46:18PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > > Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming > > two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while > > at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it > > the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? > > Nope. I think both being together is a strength, not a weekness. It's > a way for developers to be in tune with what the (less techicaly > inclined) users need/want, and for the users to receive some developer > sensibility via osmosis. Or something like that. Agree. I certianly find myself reading *everything*. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
On Sun, Feb 08, 2015 at 03:12:25PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > I'd go for: > 1. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Negative-Galaxy-v1.5-SVG.svg > or a spinoff of this, seems sober and not too flashy, i like it > 2. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan-D-Inspired-2.svg > if the swirl could be improved and, as a suggestion, the other letters > could be non-latin The swirl sould not have the hook on the edge of its inner loop. It would look less like the Debian swirl without it. One of the characteristics of the Debian swirl is the "rtisitc" irregularity, as if it had been painted with something like dry-brush technique on rought paper. But cleaning it up completely makes it less conected to the Debian swirl, and could be construed as an indication that Devuan is cleaner than Debian. -- hendrik > > Btw, is there a roadmap? Or is devuan just gonna be debian without systemd? > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > which is required if you want to appeal to new users. > That's the problem with the obese DEs. Corporate marketing says all that matters is the noobs, oh and we need this list of features nobody actually uses for our marketing campaigns in a giant checklist, you know, right next to the checkbox for "security". So we can sell to noobs while convincing them they're real power users because it can do complicated things no one wants to do. The folks who know what they're doing? Forget about them, we're not selling to them. So we're stuck with the fisher-price user interface. Meanwhile the devs can't eat their own dogfood because they're not utter noobs, and nobody wants the featurelist marketing is pushing. Why FOSS projects feel the need to emulate this toxic corporate culture is a complete mystery, but they certainly do a good job of it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
On Sun, Feb 08, 2015 at 03:08:34PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Anthony G. Basile > wrote: > > eudev is used in gentoo and some other projects, like buildroot and crux. > > So i've noticed. what about devuan? Discussion so far seems to indicate that udev is going to be replaced, either by eudev or the new vdev (when ready, which chould be soon) or someone is going to dig up a pre-systemd udev or extricate udev from systemd. I'm betting on eudev or vdev. eudev may already be ready to roll, and vdev is being readied by Jude Nelson, who's on this list. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
> Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming > two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while > at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it > the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? Nope. I think both being together is a strength, not a weekness. It's a way for developers to be in tune with what the (less techicaly inclined) users need/want, and for the users to receive some developer sensibility via osmosis. Or something like that. Just my 0.2 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:17:36 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > "John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from > systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that > various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least > more opaque than in the past.” I totally agree. I think systemd is just the worst of many entangled monolithic monsters, and is a symptom of the true problem. The preceding sentence does not in any way lessen my resolve to fight systemd any way I can. > > > > You're right. I think the problems, and frankly systemd as well, stem > from the fact that the community has changed. I've been working with > computers and writing code for a very long time, over 25 years, so I > think that I am somewhat qualified to make that statement. Agreed. > > There was a time when the “lingua franca” of the community was C. If > you were going to be part of the community, it was expected that you > would become proficient with it. Since everyone understood C, no part > of Unix was opaque, from the kernel to userspace. Things have > changed. Now, people use anything from Python to C#, with a minority > using C regularly. Most are kernel developers. Suddenly, everything > not written in the favorite language of the day becomes opaque. I agree that use of C has lessened, and that less of us understand C today. I disagree that this is necessarily the cause of the problem. Personally, I think that anything that *can* be written in Python, Perl, Ruby or Lua *should* be written in one of those languages, because doing so limits buffer overruns to those remaining in the language. Also, software written in those, especially Python, which has a rich library of standard libraries, has fewer dependencies that need to be installed. And yes, feature for feature, they're more readable than C. Also, the root cause of the gross overcomplication isn't that many can't read and write C, it's that many are clueless of the operation of a computer beyond recipes of mouse clicks. Naturally, such clueless users don't know C, but the real problem is they don't know directories, don't know pipes, don't know elementary Unix filters, etc. > > I'm not trying to start a flame war by saying this, but I think at > least 1/3rd of the problems people have with systemd is the fact it > is written in C. I'd blame it more on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#mediaviewer/File:Systemd_components.svg It's the architecture, plain and simple. It's a V'jer like conglomeration of clinging junk. Worse yet, it subtly changes simple softwares that you could formerly just plug into the system like electronic ICs. With systemd, in for a penny, in for a pound. Plus take a look at the plans Lennart has for you: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html If you like DIY Linux, you hate systemd, because systemd has removed interchangeable parts, replacing them with parts exactly machined for the systemd system, and there are no other such parts. Well, there wouldn't have been if it weren't for the Devuan project, and I thank you all for that. > If it was written in Python, I have my doubts that > it would have created such a stink. There are large, complex pieces > of system software written in Python scattered all over the Linux > community and no one treats that as an apocalypse, even when they > cause huge stability problems. I personally know of no Python *system* software, but even if there were, I'll bet you such Python programs are single units that can be easily replaced by a good programmer. Such a replacement can implement the functionality in a different language, or even add specific needed extra functionalities. Contrast this with systemd, which requires knowledge of all sorts of other things, and Lennart's plan is to have systemd incorporate more and more of our computers' functionality, leading to a situation where 1 hour quickie programs are a thing of the past. > “I think what has bothered me the most over the past few years is the > churn and what sometimes seems to be adoption and then replacement of > a technology without explanation” I'd be more succinct about the churn. Most of the churn I see is pandering to the point and click crowd, trying to make Linux ever more like Windows and Mac, so that the brainless can use it. As opposed to what we used to do: Offer a sane and discoverable system that brought new users to a new understanding of computers. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs profited from convincing people that they're too stupid to use a straightforward interface. We have no such profit motive, and therefore should not pander to the stupidest of new Linux tire-kickers. > > This is symptomatic of the way Linux is developed in distributions. > Rather than agreeing to common standards, each goes their own way. > This is not a bad thing – not at all – but it tends to be disruptive > from time to time. Lucky thing for me that t
Re: [Dng] Raspberry Pi 2
Oddly enough, the Pi2 is camera shy and will blush on flash... http://www.neowin.net/news/a-camera-flash-will-make-the-raspberry-pi-2-freeze-and-reboot ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Jaromil wrote: > However, I don't think this is a priority now. I still cannot imagine > why someone would want to be strictly anonymous while accessing that. You can replace anonymous with systemd, you know? It's a matter of choice. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I don't > think we will ever get there with desktops. Diversity can be a strength, or a weakness. It's good to have diverse desktops (i dislike behemoths like GNOME and KDE), but it hinders adoption of a common ground - which is required if you want to appeal to new users. Yes, there's freedesktop and linux standard base... but where's adoption? If there was a coherent set of standards and distros actually followed them, maybe systemd wouldn't have surfaced (or at least they'd have to find another excuse). OTOH, i feel the GUI should come up as an extra layer, via startx (well not necessarily so). I want to work on the CLI if i want to and to enable the GUI if i want to. If you want your 'puter to go straight to GUI that's fine by me, as long as your "user experience" isn't shoved down my throat, which is what systemd does. The "makng it easier for desktops " excuse is just that, an excuse. Above all there should always be freedom of choice: i don't care if people want to use systemd as long as i have the choice not to. And linux as been well and deployed in large scale everywhere mission critical you name it systems for quite a few decades now without the need for systemd. So yes there should be room for improvement and development, but not at the expense of trampling on others. Put your GUI desktop DE things on steroids, i don't care, as long at it stays in the desktop layer. Yeah, guess i rambled. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
Isn't Bastille a set of scripts to harden Debian security? Well, IMMHO, Devuan shouldn't need such a collection if said security was default (which should be). Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
I'd go for: 1. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Negative-Galaxy-v1.5-SVG.svg or a spinoff of this, seems sober and not too flashy, i like it 2. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan-D-Inspired-2.svg if the swirl could be improved and, as a suggestion, the other letters could be non-latin Btw, is there a roadmap? Or is devuan just gonna be debian without systemd? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 20:15:50 +0100 > Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > > > Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > > > On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 > > > Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages > > > > would need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own > > > > experimentation I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are > > > > willing to give up on a few other things: > > > > > > > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > > > > > This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" > > > not to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us > > > some credibility in that matter. > > > > > > Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others > > > start following in our footsteps, that's a different story. > > > > > > SteveT > > > > I think it was said before, but I throw TDE in the bag. Contrary to > > GNOME it is fast, configurable and consumes by "todays standards" > > minimal resources. > > > > Nik > > Timing is everything. mr_chris on #golug at Freenode was just singing > the praises of TDE an hour ago. He tells me TDE has no nepomuk, no > akonadi, and performs relatively well. > > Personnally, I removed every KDE app and library from my computer many > years ago to Keep from Krashing (tm), but perhaps a certain subset of > KDE apps and libraries wouldn't crash and hang the computer if run from > TDE. > > Nik, how reasonable would it be to use TDE without KDE apps? Would > doing so still yield benefits over and above, let's say, Xfce? Does TDE > have any systemd dependencies? > > Thanks, > > SteveT Hi Steve! When you remove all extra stuff from TDE then you end up with a sytem thats still superior to XFCE. I'll just hilight the things I like most (only the base system, not the extra applications): - one cental configuriation tool for all aspects of TDE. - very fine grained configuration - single mouse click works as one would expect. - window behaviour configurable from "gerneral" down to "single window class" or "title" - session manager works (well, firefox does not play nicely, but then, where does it?) - konqeror simply works (as filemanager, KHTML has not been replaced by webkit but it's WIP when I recall correctly) - kmail. fast, reliable, and uses maildir (one file per mail), a big plus when it comes to backups and doing neet stuff with mails. - has a desktop (downside: xsnow does not play nice). - acessability simply works. (Sticky keys, self releasing keys, ) - no nepomuck / zeitgeist. - all configs cleartext. I like it so much that I still try to get it working on FreeBSD - currently I'm running FVWM :-) Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Anthony G. Basile wrote: > eudev is used in gentoo and some other projects, like buildroot and crux. So i've noticed. what about devuan? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 > Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would > > need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation > > I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a > > few other things: > > > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" not > to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us some > credibility in that matter. > > Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others start > following in our footsteps, that's a different story. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > I think it was said before, but I throw TDE in the bag. Contrary to GNOME it is fast, configurable and consumes by "todays standards" minimal resources. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 > Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would > > need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation > > I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a > > few other things: > > > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" not > to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us some > credibility in that matter. > > Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others start > following in our footsteps, that's a different story. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > I think it was said before, but I throw TDE in the bag. Contrary to GNOME it is fast, configurable and consumes by "todays standards" minimal resources. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Alberto Zuin - Liste wrote: > Hi Jaromil, > thank you for the gift! and thank you for the giftlab! <3 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 02:52:12AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > Hi guys, > > a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine installed and > running on qemu: > > 0)# wget > "http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso"; > > 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm Well, naturally it was: 0)$ wget "http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso"; and 1)# apt-get install qemu-kvm Sorry, but I was almost asleep :) HH KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Jaromil, thank you for the gift! Now, I personally hope that this can put an end to every flame about "the fake project" and "you ask for money for nothing". Have a nice weekend, Alberto Il 14/02/2015 9:36 pm, Jaromil ha scritto: > > re all, > > Here is a pre-alpha sneak preview of Devuan at the current state of > affairs. It is my valentine to Franco: despite we probably never met in > person, I love him. He is really dedicated to this project and putting > hard work in it. I also fell in love with another VUA, whose name I > won't tell, but he is the one hosting the gitlab, running very well. > > > http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso > > http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso.asc > > http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso.sha > > do not use this in production, this is an internal preview (not even an > alpha) for the Devuan enthusiastic community and for those wondering if > we'll really make it: yes we will. > > Journalists and DWN editors reading: please do not link this. We will > have another more public release soon :^) Let it be a private valentine > > Also please note that this is not yet rebranded, so it says Debian > almost everywhere. Didn't find the time for that yet. > > default user is 'devuan' > password is always 'devuan', also for root > > sources are those of Debian 8 RC1 jessie > plus the mods here: https://git.devuan.org/groups/packages-base > and packed with the SDK https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-sdk > > > happy hacking > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJU4FkgAAoJEAzproFXfBTI1NgP/RZICg3x5y7cvILnyOoCTkBr /CCklMA/bM9dQLb8BlU90hxmQKof3KUMtub7Eh/ijvuhoJUUquoqoB8GRUMjtN0s sUgIhCwFsf0LIlutQWC0IHFiRgvu9BV/bACVoveARhgJhVPBGuE0d3pVkHeSk/Pp QZ7YpiYCwh2V8jsArVzTlkYWyA7mLEvIIq5fBe52BU68hwJgbYBRd7ue748Qr9FC HdViRAcjlz1voV0b9Bn6sKMFzvxAAmeK+rZ8TPDLr/pYZ64W9/lJ9fuMSXHOF5+2 yJ2K4IR9C2/cHVoC9jYkxesQXBYpBqaHry7blHshf/q1Jw4oIlqI8T2QidZGFaqz b8eaZ/zxGdse0HQb2sowjMXbI//EL2pkqGMTPJ7osPtxGcspo7mHsN3Z/jjZ3n6f jIj7KoVNGg2Yaq/Yqe6RxLQ3fBsCRPEM16B8gjOo46HIXPqn3oZxyJbx3NgeU6pz ecXNE1dHhKtQlCiTqltjLTCR8yGEuDLi2/1IKuwxhvvMB1lOK1ryFDIujnX5kLxK 90nGejwio3Tv+/vNdWE1ghQ2CavLEQsE6XkYQc5cvIisQkVlYRSi7EdnMe1OmeGC KmIrptdlLVDGzqp62CkmETw00QunPDGY81r7tXhlbyaaH/AF6+hHNvV5Osq4Swp+ LPCYi7ulpOFjy948xVwD =NdIp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
