Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2015 04:52, Jude Nelson a écrit :


On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 10:30 PM, T.J. Duchene > wrote:


On Thursday, July 23, 2015 08:22:55 PM Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:01AM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
> > ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just
sucks and is
> > documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of
> > GNU/Fedora
> > it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a
PITA to port
> > away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation.
>
> So there are alternatives to GTK:  Do any suck less? What are they?
>
What's wrong with GTK?  I don't care for it, but it is not any
worse than
Microsoft's UI.

There are lots of alternatives.  wxWidgets and Qt are the most common
suggestions, but there are far more esoteric ones.  If you are
aiming for
widest portability support, Qt is probably your best bet.


Doesn't wxWidgets use GTK on GNU/Linux?


I don't care for it myself - because it is C++. 



Minor correction:  GTK is written in C, and relies on GLib, which is 
also written C.  However, it's open to debate as to how 
similar/different C-plus-GLib is to C++ in practice.



Yes, opaque structures are everywhere in Glib, AFAIR. That's the 
way to provide encapsulation in C. Some nice features of modern 
programming like encapsulation or generic programming do not belong to 
OOP, except in C++.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2015 00:37, Isaac Dunham a écrit :

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:49:11PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 23/07/2015 22:19, Isaac Dunham a écrit :

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:


For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
getting rid of it would involve something like the following:

* Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use
of dbus.

* Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or
not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and
wpa_supplicant to "dial in" Wifi.

wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript
based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant.

 I don't understand why you, Isaac, and also Steve want to do this
yourself and always avoid speaking of wpa_gui. wpa_gui will really help you
configuring wpa_supplicant. It detects all the needed parameters and only
requires you to enter the secret keys. Why rewrite all this yourself (unless
for training)?

My main motive was the fact that wpa_gui will not work unless you already
have a working wpa_supplicant.conf & wpa_supplicant is running.
(My script was partly inspired by how hard it is to figure out what goes
in wpa_supplicant.conf if you've never used wpa_supplicant before.)

   man wpa_supplicant.conf   andgoogle howto wpa_supplicant

It also has to do with Qt4 vs. dialog: one drags in one of the largest
GUI toolkits around, and the other is a couple hundred kilobytes,
runs in text mode, and only depends on a single library that's basically
guaranteed to be installed and implements a POSIX API, with an installed
size in the half megabyte range.
(In case you're wondering about the "POSIX API" part, curses is part of
POSIX; dialog only needs ncurses.)


That's a very good point. Thanks for pointing it.


For what it's worth, my script also works with whiptail, although --
contrary to the whiptail docs -- whiptail ends up using many times
the space on i386, between libslang, libnewt, and libpopt, besides
being buggy. In theory, it will also work with Xdialog if you have it.



 BTW I had a look at wicd the other day and read I could only configure
it for one  wifi station. Is that true? wpa_supplicant can store an
unlimited list of stations and connect to the one it detects... I have more
than 30 in my wpa_supplicant.conf -- labs, homes, hotels, bars.

I don't recall seeing any signs of such a limitation when I used wicd
for connecting to wireless at home and at college...
That said, when I tried it was fond of spawning lots of wpa_supplicant
processes.



I figured this out the the documentation. It might only be the doc 
which is misleading, hence my question.


Thanks.
Didier

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Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[Isaac Dunham]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:14:21AM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> 
> 
> On 7/23/2015 10:41 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote:
> >I'm inclined to agree with you on C++, but I'd like to refer you to Roger
> >Leigh's comments on the subject about seven and a half months ago;
> >I'm only appending the first couple screenfuls (which is maybe a third
> >of the original) but you should be able to find the original email given
> >the headers and this text.
> I don't have a  high opinion of GTK either.  Honestly, I never did, but my
> opinion is subjective rather than objective.  I never bothered to learn GTK
> to a great extent.  I knew enough "back in the day" to hack the gnome-panel
> and add a new option or two that Gnome did not have, and I kept my changes
> to myself. That was the extent of my interest. Generally, I have a low
> opinion of UI kits because the designers tend to be horribly inconsistent.
> After GTK3 was released, I knew it was on the downhill slide.  They should
> have started over from the ground up, kept it generic, and added support for
> Qt desktop integration.  GTK has basically become part of Gnome, and no one
> of consequence except Gnome uses it.
> 
[snip]
> Now then, as for Roger's comments, I find them confusing.

Probably because my comments threw you off as to what he's talking
about.
The post in question is entirely about the problems with GTK.

> >[snip]
> >
> >The C API is overly complex and fragile.  You don't want to base your
> >project on a sandcastle.  And the expertise required to use it is
> >very high. Implementing dynamic typing and manual vtable construction
> >rather than using C++ which does proper type checking?  Just use C++!
> >
> C and C++ are both strongly typed, so I am assuming that he must be
> referring to GTK using a pointer in C presumably to dynamically handle
> function names and data for polymorphism.  He can't help it if GTK is
> sloppy, but I can't make sense of his grievance either. Type checking is
> never C's job, it's his!  That is explicit in the design of the language.
> Everyone who uses C knows that.  C++ is the same for that matter.  Neither
> language checks your variable data for type.

> >In fact, you have to be an expert in C++ compiler internals just to be
> >able to understand and use it effectively.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> That's somewhat true, but if you write C++ code PROPERLY - i.e. make sure
> you references are clean, resources released, and you aren't leaving any
> hanging exceptions, what he is claiming is pretty much a non-issue in the
> context of any OOP language.  A C++ compiler is no more mysterious that any
> of the other OOP crap we are forced to endure. C++ code is simply not as
> robust as C.   You can mitigate a lot of the annoyance;  like exceptions
> that cause premature exits - but you are never really rid of it.

"it" != "C++"; "it" == "GTK".
The assertion is that GTK avoids using C++ by forcing the programmer to
essentially do what they would do in C++ *and* what C++ would do for them.

Hope this makes it a little clearer,
Isaac
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Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[T.J. Duchene]

On 7/23/2015 10:41 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote:

I'm inclined to agree with you on C++, but I'd like to refer you to Roger
Leigh's comments on the subject about seven and a half months ago;
I'm only appending the first couple screenfuls (which is maybe a third
of the original) but you should be able to find the original email given
the headers and this text.
I don't have a  high opinion of GTK either.  Honestly, I never did, but 
my opinion is subjective rather than objective.  I never bothered to 
learn GTK to a great extent.  I knew enough "back in the day" to hack 
the gnome-panel and add a new option or two that Gnome did not have, and 
I kept my changes to myself. That was the extent of my interest. 
Generally, I have a low opinion of UI kits because the designers tend to 
be horribly inconsistent.  After GTK3 was released, I knew it was on the 
downhill slide.  They should have started over from the ground up, kept 
it generic, and added support for Qt desktop integration.  GTK has 
basically become part of Gnome, and no one of consequence except Gnome 
uses it.


I've seen very little new software written that uses GTK, except for 
things that use the Python bindings. (Yes, I despise Python, but will 
not discuss it here.) Most of it is very buggy.   In fact, I would say 
with confidence that GTK has receded so much that except for software 
that already uses it as a legacy, no software of any quality is being 
produced using GTK.  It has even lost a few.  Both Canonical and Google 
have either completely abandoned it or are choosing alternatives for new 
projects.



Now then, as for Roger's comments, I find them confusing.

[snip]

The C API is overly complex and fragile.  You don't want to base your
project on a sandcastle.  And the expertise required to use it is
very high. Implementing dynamic typing and manual vtable construction
rather than using C++ which does proper type checking?  Just use C++!

C and C++ are both strongly typed, so I am assuming that he must be 
referring to GTK using a pointer in C presumably to dynamically handle 
function names and data for polymorphism.  He can't help it if GTK is 
sloppy, but I can't make sense of his grievance either. Type checking is 
never C's job, it's his!  That is explicit in the design of the 
language.  Everyone who uses C knows that.  C++ is the same for that 
matter.  Neither language checks your variable data for type.


I've always noted the GTK code tends to leak.  If  programmers with 
experience can't be bothered to clean up after themselves, I'm glad GTK 
is dying off.




In fact, you have to be an expert in C++ compiler internals just to be
able to understand and use it effectively.

[snip]

That's somewhat true, but if you write C++ code PROPERLY - i.e. make 
sure you references are clean, resources released, and you aren't 
leaving any hanging exceptions, what he is claiming is pretty much a 
non-issue in the context of any OOP language.  A C++ compiler is no more 
mysterious that any of the other OOP crap we are forced to endure. C++ 
code is simply not as robust as C.   You can mitigate a lot of the 
annoyance;  like exceptions that cause premature exits - but you are 
never really rid of it.


I think a lot of GTK's problems could be solved if it were rewritten to 
take advantage of C11, but I don't see that happening.  I doubt Gnome 
has enough people willing to do it.







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Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 09:30:04PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> On Thursday, July 23, 2015 08:22:55 PM Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:01AM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
> > > ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and is
> > > documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of
> > > GNU/Fedora
> > > it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to port
> > > away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation.
> > 
> > So there are alternatives to GTK:  Do any suck less?  What are they?
> > 
> What's wrong with GTK?  I don't care for it, but it is not any worse than 
> Microsoft's UI.  
> 
> There are lots of alternatives.  wxWidgets and Qt are the most common 
> suggestions, but there are far more esoteric ones.  If you are aiming for 
> widest portability support, Qt is probably your best bet.  
> I don't care for it myself - because it is C++.  I do not believe in OOP as a 
> decent paradigm for software development.  I'm know I am in the minority, but 
> I am not alone.  Even Google has reined in use of some of the worst features 
> of OOP.  Programmers working for Google are not allowed to use exceptions.

I'm inclined to agree with you on C++, but I'd like to refer you to Roger
Leigh's comments on the subject about seven and a half months ago;
I'm only appending the first couple screenfuls (which is maybe a third
of the original) but you should be able to find the original email given
the headers and this text.

Appending message:
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 21:51:42 +
From: Roger Leigh 
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Message-ID: <20141206215142.gw1...@codelibre.net>

On Sat, Dec 06, 2014 at 06:44:01PM +0100, mutek wrote:
> On sabato 6 dicembre 2014 18:32:04 CEST, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
> >On 12/06/2014 04:57 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >>On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 02:54:09PM +0200, Vlad wrote:
> >>>I would propose that we do not waste any time with GDM, GNOME
> >>>or
> anything
> >>>else that has sprung out of that irresponsible organizations
> >>>other than gtk.
> >>I wasn't aware that GTK had anything to do with that organisation.
> >>Isn't it the Gimp ToolKit?
> >>And isn't the Gimp the GNU Image Manipulation Program?
> >
> >Yes, but the Gimp tool kit has been adopted by the GNOME
> >develoment team to be their toolkit too.
> 
> whatever I saw in the industry...GTK it's not taken in account if
> compared with QT,MS-whatever,Java-whatever,HTML5-DOM-canvas-engines,

There are good reasons for that.  As a (former) professional GTK+
developer, I have found out the hard way that it's unsuitable for most
projects.  Nowadays, unsuitable for almost all projects outside GNOME.

> GTK did a very good job but seems invisible to the world out of the
> free softwares

That's because it's a terrible toolkit, and the number of people who
are experts with it is vanishingly small (and shrinking).  It's not a
safe platform on which to build anything serious.  Not because it
doesn't work, but because you can't easily hire people, and because
it's the least efficient and worst documented toolkit to work with.
If you want to achieve your own project's goals on time, this matters.

The C API is overly complex and fragile.  You don't want to base your
project on a sandcastle.  And the expertise required to use it is
very high.  Implementing dynamic typing and manual vtable construction
rather than using C++ which does proper type checking?  Just use C++!
In fact, you have to be an expert in C++ compiler internals just to be
able to understand and use it effectively.  It's like being a master
carpenter and then willingly eschewing your workshop for a rusty swiss
army knife!  While you could probably construct something with the
swiss army knife if you try really hard, the workshop will do a
faster, better, more professional job and let you get on with the job
rather than cursing at your inadequate tools every few minutes.

[snip]

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Isaac Dunham]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > I do not understand this entire thread.
> > 
> > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be.
> > What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the eaning?
> > What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?
> 
> yep. this is sort of going bonkers.
> 
> me and other developers on this list started receiving delirium mails
> from this WTF guy in private, not sure what to make about them if not
> evince he is flaming with himself or another guy with the same name.

Thorsten Glaser, the Debian Developer who authored the GR against systemd,
maintains two repositories named "wtf" and "yplentyn".
Collectively, they are referred to as "MirDebian", after Thorsten's
nickname "mirabilos".
These repositories are designed for running without systemd, pulse, dbus,
and a whole lot of similar stuff.
The "systemd_must_die" package that aroused such a flamewar was in the
MirDebian wtf repository, and has been renamed
"prevent_systemd_completely".


The OP is not mirabilos, nor even of the same nationality; the only
connection is that the first three letters of his name are the same
as the first three lettters of Thorsten's nickname "mirabilos".
(Note that "miro" has "o" as the fourth letter; ISTR that it's short
for Miroslav.)
However, the OP objects to much of the software that Thorsten has worked
on disabling/removing, and thus has been promoting the mirdebian wtf
repository.
The OP has repeatedly stated that systemd, pulse, and dbus are all
backdoors for remote exploits, and provided notes on removing them
with the aid of Thorsten's repositories and hardening a system with
grsec; these notes have been useful to some, despite the OP not being
fluent in English.

As far as I can tell, the current thread is the OP's attempt to ask
Thorsten if he intends to duplicate the repositories for Devuan.

It is my understanding, based on my previous examination of the
repositories, that nothing in there would have to change for Devuan.


Does that clarify anything?

HTH,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [DNG] The figure of commits behind the upstream on github

[Jude Nelson]

Hi Anto,

[snip]

> does anybody have any suggestion how to easily find out that our fork
> repositories need updating without keep checking the upstream repositories?
>

You're going to have to pull changes upstream periodically.  That's just
the way git is designed--if you're not hosting the repository that the
original project developers push to, then you're by definition going to be
pulling from their repository.

However, from your description, it sounds like you could make your workflow
a little bit easier:
1. fork the original repository
2. add the original repository as a remote for pulls (i.e. git add remote
...)
3. make your changes and push them to your forked repository
4. pull from the original repository (i.e. git pull )
5. resolve merge conflicts
6. repeat steps 3-6 periodically

If your changes are unlikely to be in conflict by pushes to the original,
you might consider creating a cron job to periodically run steps 3 through
6 for you, and have it email you when there are merge conflicts (step 5)
that can't be automatically resolved.

HTH,
Jude
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Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[T.J. Duchene]

On 7/23/2015 9:52 PM, Jude Nelson wrote:




I don't care for it myself - because it is C++. 



Minor correction:  GTK is written in C, and relies on GLib, which is 
also written C.  However, it's open to debate as to how 
similar/different C-plus-GLib is to C++ in practice.



Apologies for the confusion.  I was referring to Qt as in the previous 
paragraph.I know GTK is C.  =)


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Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[Jude Nelson]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 10:30 PM, T.J. Duchene 
wrote:

> On Thursday, July 23, 2015 08:22:55 PM Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:01AM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
> > > ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and
> is
> > > documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of
> > > GNU/Fedora
> > > it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to
> port
> > > away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation.
> >
> > So there are alternatives to GTK:  Do any suck less?  What are they?
> >
> What's wrong with GTK?  I don't care for it, but it is not any worse than
> Microsoft's UI.
>
> There are lots of alternatives.  wxWidgets and Qt are the most common
> suggestions, but there are far more esoteric ones.  If you are aiming for
> widest portability support, Qt is probably your best bet.
>

Doesn't wxWidgets use GTK on GNU/Linux?


>
> I don't care for it myself - because it is C++.


Minor correction:  GTK is written in C, and relies on GLib, which is also
written C.  However, it's open to debate as to how similar/different
C-plus-GLib is to C++ in practice.

Cheers,
Jude
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Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)

[T.J. Duchene]

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 08:22:55 PM Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:01AM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
> > ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and is
> > documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of
> > GNU/Fedora
> > it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to port
> > away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation.
> 
> So there are alternatives to GTK:  Do any suck less?  What are they?
> 
What's wrong with GTK?  I don't care for it, but it is not any worse than 
Microsoft's UI.  

There are lots of alternatives.  wxWidgets and Qt are the most common 
suggestions, but there are far more esoteric ones.  If you are aiming for 
widest portability support, Qt is probably your best bet.  

I don't care for it myself - because it is C++.  I do not believe in OOP as a 
decent paradigm for software development.  I'm know I am in the minority, but 
I am not alone.  Even Google has reined in use of some of the worst features 
of OOP.  Programmers working for Google are not allowed to use exceptions.

Laters!

T.J.

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:01AM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
> 
> ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and is 
> documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of GNU/Fedora 
> it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to port 
> away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation.

So there are alternatives to GTK:  Do any suck less?  What are they?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > I do not understand this entire thread.
> > 
> > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be.
> > What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the meaning?
> > What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?
> 
> yep. this is sort of going bonkers.
> 
> me and other developers on this list started receiving delirium mails
> from this WTF guy in private, not sure what to make about them if not
> evince he is flaming with himself or another guy with the same name.
> 
> or perhaps is just plain disruption, with all the FUD contained.
> 
> we'll draw a line at a certain point and cease the noise. hold on.

I think he actually has something to say, but he's having a hard time 
saying it.  It seems as if he keept distracting himself while he's 
writing.  I'd not want to see him suppressed.

He seems to be talking about a Linux system that's much more ascetic 
than devuan is planning to be in terms of eschewing commonly included 
packages.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> I do not understand this entire thread.
> 
> I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be.
> What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the eaning?
> What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?

yep. this is sort of going bonkers.

me and other developers on this list started receiving delirium mails
from this WTF guy in private, not sure what to make about them if not
evince he is flaming with himself or another guy with the same name.

or perhaps is just plain disruption, with all the FUD contained.

we'll draw a line at a certain point and cease the noise. hold on.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:44:32 -0700
James Powell  wrote:

> So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement
> Userspace IPC handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems
> and UNIX?

Nothing. I've never felt the functionality to be especially valuable. I
guess I won't get informed when Clementine changes songs. Oh well.

> If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in
> compatible? You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just
> to satisfy a grievance.

I don't know about others, but *I* was talking about something a user
does, not something Devuan does.

> 
> This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, 

See my response above.

> and I'm
> sorry if you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX
> compliant software. 

See my response above.

> It's not perfect, but are any protocols that
> allow interapplication and interprocess communication across a system
> and network going to be not be complex to work?

I could probably make one, but that's besides the point.

> 
> Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or
> appropriate for Devuan.

I can't speak for others, but all I did was give instructions on how a
user could run sans-dbus if s/he, doesn't like I, don't like dbus.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 07:24:10 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:

> Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200
> > Michael Bütow  wrote:
> > 
> > > I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of
> > > D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin
> > > of it.
> > 
> > For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
> > getting rid of it would involve something like the following:
> 
> (other steps)
> 
> > get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with
> > snd_mixer_oss and rexima.
> 
> ALSA doesn't depend on DBus.
> 

OK, well that makes it even easier!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:49:11PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 23/07/2015 22:19, Isaac Dunham a écrit :
> >On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
> >>>getting rid of it would involve something like the following:
> >>>
> >>>* Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use
> >>>of dbus.
> >>>
> >>>* Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or
> >>>not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and
> >>>wpa_supplicant to "dial in" Wifi.
> >wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript
> >based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant.
> 
> I don't understand why you, Isaac, and also Steve want to do this
> yourself and always avoid speaking of wpa_gui. wpa_gui will really help you
> configuring wpa_supplicant. It detects all the needed parameters and only
> requires you to enter the secret keys. Why rewrite all this yourself (unless
> for training)?

My main motive was the fact that wpa_gui will not work unless you already
have a working wpa_supplicant.conf & wpa_supplicant is running.
(My script was partly inspired by how hard it is to figure out what goes
in wpa_supplicant.conf if you've never used wpa_supplicant before.)
It also has to do with Qt4 vs. dialog: one drags in one of the largest
GUI toolkits around, and the other is a couple hundred kilobytes,
runs in text mode, and only depends on a single library that's basically
guaranteed to be installed and implements a POSIX API, with an installed
size in the half megabyte range.
(In case you're wondering about the "POSIX API" part, curses is part of
POSIX; dialog only needs ncurses.)

For what it's worth, my script also works with whiptail, although --
contrary to the whiptail docs -- whiptail ends up using many times
the space on i386, between libslang, libnewt, and libpopt, besides
being buggy. In theory, it will also work with Xdialog if you have it.


> BTW I had a look at wicd the other day and read I could only configure
> it for one  wifi station. Is that true? wpa_supplicant can store an
> unlimited list of stations and connect to the one it detects... I have more
> than 30 in my wpa_supplicant.conf -- labs, homes, hotels, bars.

I don't recall seeing any signs of such a limitation when I used wicd
for connecting to wireless at home and at college...
That said, when I tried it was fond of spawning lots of wpa_supplicant
processes.

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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[DNG] The figure of commits behind the upstream on github

[Anto]

Hello everybody,

I forked a project on github and added some commits on top of the ones 
on upstream repository. The figure of commits behind on github web 
interface is quite important for me as that indicates whether there are 
new commits on upstream that I need to merge or not.


There are 33 new commits being added into the upstream repository 
recently. I merged only 29 of them into mine. Before I merged those 29 
commits, it had 11,534 total commits, 849 commits ahead and 33 commits 
behind the upstream repository. After the merged, it has 11,564 total 
commits, 854 commits ahead and 8 commits behind the upstream repository. 
The difference on the total commits looks alright, i.e. 30 commits (29 
from the upstream and 1 merge commit that I added). The commits ahead 
figure looks alright as well because I did "git rebase -i" of the last 8 
commits and deleted the 4 commits that I don't want, so the commits 
ahead difference is 5 commits (4 from the upstream and 1 merge commit 
that I added).


However, I cannot figure out why I got 8 commits behind the upstream. I 
am afraid that I missed to merge 4 more commits. But several times I 
checked the changes on each file affected by all 29 commits and they 
look alright. Is it because of I deleted 4 commits so another 4 commits 
related to the ones I deleted also got deleted? If so, how to find that 
out which ones also got deleted? But in any case, the difference on the 
total commits is correct. Is this an obvious problem on github, that if 
we deleted some commits, the figure of commits behind becomes double? Or 
perhaps was that because I wrongly did the merge?


I tried to use "git cherry-pick" before, but the figure of commit behind 
remains 33 commits even though the total commits became 29 commits more. 
I think that is because "git cherry-pick" does not preserve the original 
history, so original commits are considered as new commits on my fork 
repository.


If the figure of commits behind on github web interface is not reliable, 
does anybody have any suggestion how to easily find out that our fork 
repositories need updating without keep checking the upstream repositories?


Thanks a lot in advance.

Kind regards,

Anto

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Teodoro Santoni]

Good evening,

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 01:44:32PM -0700, James Powell wrote:
> So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement Userspace IPC 
> handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems and UNIX?
> 
> If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in compatible? 
> You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just to satisfy a 
> grievance.

nanomsg, sunrpc, a common specification to use pipes where needed and msgpacks 
in socket where needed, ya name it. But...

> This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, and I'm sorry if 
> you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX compliant software. 
> It's not perfect, but are any protocols that allow interapplication and 
> interprocess communication across a system and network going to be not be 
> complex to work?

... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and is 
documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of GNU/Fedora 
it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to port 
away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation.
 
> Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or appropriate for 
> Devuan.

And this is not the workplace of the guy who carves in stone *all* the 
pinpoints, bikesheds and milestones for Devuan. Just *some*. 
Most of what you read is forum talk, tbh.

--
Teodoro Santoni

Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files.
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 23/07/2015 22:19, Isaac Dunham a écrit :

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:


>
>For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
>getting rid of it would involve something like the following:
>
>* Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use
>of dbus.
>
>* Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or
>not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and
>wpa_supplicant to "dial in" Wifi.

wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript
based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant.


I don't understand why you, Isaac, and also Steve want to do this 
yourself and always avoid speaking of wpa_gui. wpa_gui will really help 
you configuring wpa_supplicant. It detects all the needed parameters and 
only requires you to enter the secret keys. Why rewrite all this 
yourself (unless for training)?


BTW I had a look at wicd the other day and read I could only 
configure it for one  wifi station. Is that true? wpa_supplicant can 
store an unlimited list of stations and connect to the one it detects... 
I have more than 30 in my wpa_supplicant.conf -- labs, homes, hotels, bars.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 23/07/2015 22:44, James Powell a écrit :
So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement Userspace 
IPC handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems and UNIX?


If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in 
compatible? You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just 
to satisfy a grievance.


The main idea discussed here was to manage to not need it, not at 
all to replace it :-)




This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, and I'm 
sorry if you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX 
compliant software. It's not perfect, but are any protocols that allow 
interapplication and interprocess communication across a system and 
network going to be not be complex to work?


Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or 
appropriate for Devuan.


Full agreement. This was just a friendly off topic discussion.


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Re: [DNG] systemd in the era of hotplugable devices

[Laurent Bercot]

On 23/07/2015 22:41, Peter Maloney wrote:

What's wrong with these, which Thunderbird handles just fine?


 Ah, indeed it does, when the list address is in the To:
 It does not when the list address is in the Cc:
 So the solution is to make sure to always send To: the list. :)
 Thanks for the notice.

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[James Powell]

So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement Userspace IPC 
handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems and UNIX?

If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in compatible? 
You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just to satisfy a 
grievance.

This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, and I'm sorry if you 
dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX compliant software. It's 
not perfect, but are any protocols that allow interapplication and interprocess 
communication across a system and network going to be not be complex to work?

Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or appropriate for 
Devuan.

From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr
Sent: ‎7/‎23/‎2015 9:19 AM
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> I do not understand this entire thread.
>
> I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be.
> What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning?
> What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?
>

> -- hendrik

(corrected typoes in your input, if that's not what you meant, cry foul!)

Hi, hendrik!

Yes, WTF probably means that (but they may have another excuse-name
along).

They were really outraged at the Debian Developers in charge for not
allowing the name, wait, I got to search for it... (I'll search from the
first message in this thread, the one with a host of links, by me)...
Yes I think it's in the first.

At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made:

systemd-must-die

find it in the:

How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=15#p550700
(second page)

I can remember and tell about it because I wrote to them:

(same topic)
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484
(third page)

but it was almost certainly censored out but the then provider of mine,

You can find the link in that same "stealth install" topic to:

Postfix smtp-tls-wrapper, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, a Zerk Provider
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html

which if you open, you easily find:

status=bounced (host 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1] said: 550-"JunkMail rejected -
147-226.dsl.iskon.hr (n4m3.localdomain) 550-[89.164.147.226]:41972 is in
an RBL, see 550

and you can, if you have time and are interested in fighting censorship,
study around there, as well as (not confirmed, only suspected):

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.180226.3ff750a1.en.html
where find:

550 Unrouteable address (when I send email to Thorsten)

and imagine what happened. Did mirabilos quit Debian? I don't know, but
being that he provides packages for Debian, I don't think it's likely.

So if you are interested about why they call it that, that's probably
it. For more, one can read that resumé topic of mine, which although 12
forum pages, is much, much shorter than the very ample discussion on DD
List.

I wrote those forum pages of resumé for DD List discussions, after I
read pretty much all of the then recent DD mail archive,

So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of
the name. Everything is being killed all the time in Unix, jobs and
processes, but systemd was not allowed to die, by some moralist DD.

To be honest, I'm not sure about the details of the prevent-systemd
packages now. I would be if I were to install it, but I'm waiting for
Devuan to get dbus-free, or allow dbus freedom in some way... Maybe
mirabilos mada a package of his own, probably so, yeah, and didn't build
on wookey's package...

So I haven't (so far) made contact with Thorsten mirabilos Glaser, the
founder of MirBSD, but should Devuan eventually fail to provide a
no-dbus and no-poetterware desktop, I might have to, forced to search
for options, also be learning more about it...  Who knows. I won't be
running a dbus- or a poetterware- nothing.

But I hope you at Devuan will be working to get a distro that can be
installed hardened, no-dbus, no-any-poetterware and associates, and
maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan
WTF for Devuan needs...

But I am really not a dev, and I really have spoken enough I believe.
Unless someone has questions, or either T.J Duchene or James Powell
decide to reply to my questions to them, or launch some counter
questions, I'll be looking for my exit from contributing to this
developers' list, and follow you silently.

The links to MirBSD are, in the 1st page above mentioned, only, use the
domain only:

MirBSD
https://www.mirbsd.org/

and it is called after his nickname, mirabilos, I believe.

--
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
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Re: [DNG] systemd in the era of hotplugable devices

[Peter Maloney]

On 07/22/2015 10:41 PM, Laurent Bercot wrote:
>  OT: I would like it if the list host could set the "Mailing-List:"
> header on list messages. Most MUAs understand it and implement a
> "reply to list" feature; without it, we're stuck with manual
> configuration
> or hitting "reply to all", which causes duplicates.
>
What's wrong with these, which Thunderbird handles just fine?

List-Id: "The first mailinglist after debianfork.org" 
List-Unsubscribe: , 
 
List-Archive: 
List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: , 
 


The only thing that bugs me about this list is how many messages
apparently bounce, so it leaves gaps in threads that I never see, and I
keep having to click a resubscribe link after some number of bounces so
it decides I shouldn't get mail any more.
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200
> Michael Bütow  wrote:
> 
> 
> > I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus
> > related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it.
> 
> For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
> getting rid of it would involve something like the following:
> 
> * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use
> of dbus.
> 
> * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or
> not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and
> wpa_supplicant to "dial in" Wifi.

wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript
based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant.

Said shell script is actually part of my local wireless configuration
setup; the other half consists of an init script to start wpa_supplicant
and a script to call busybox udhcpc when the connection is completed.

If you're wondering how wpa_cli connects to wpa_supplicant, it's by
means of a unix socket at /var/run/wpa_supplicant/$IFACE; no DBUS
involved.

> Put a command into your init system that kills the dbus started in your
> initramfs. I personally wouldn't recommend tampering with your
> initramfs itself.

Ah, that's where the fun *starts*! It's all boring till you get there.

Just purge the dbus package; it can be done, and it won't break anything
that wouldn't be broken by stopping dbus.
Then pin it (at -100, maybe?).

> In your init system, get rid of commands that start or modify a running
> dbus.

Apt does that for you if you purge dbus.

> Get rid of Pulseaudio (obviously, and not just to get away from dbus),
> get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss
> and rexima.

ALSA does not use dbus.
It uses a library that handles writing to the soundcard.
I've used a Debian system that has ALSA and not DBUS, as well as running
strace.

> You might have to tell several of your GUI programs not to do
> notifications, because they notify to dbus without the option to notify
> other ways.
> 
> It's probably not going to be that difficult for the average Devuan
> user to get rid of dbus if s/he wants to.

Or just add the MirDebian repos that Miroslav referred to (you may want
both yplentyn and wtf).
There are no dependencies that are missing on Devuan, since everything
that we're trying to remove is a subset of what mirabilos set out to
remove.

HTH,
Isaac
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Re: [DNG] Thorsten Glaser? was: Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:23:26PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 16:18:22 +0200
> miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:
> 
> 
> > What fundamentalists? The Gentoo folks? Thorsten mirabilos Glaser with
> > his MirDebian "WTF" project, a fundamentalist? Me, a fundamentalist?
> 
> What's the relationship between Thorsten Glaser, mirabilos, and
> miro.rovis ?

Thorsten Glaser == mirabilos. He's one of the founders of MirBSD, a
Debian Developer, and author of the GR to get rid of systemd.
He maintains an external repository or two for Debian, designed to help
avoid a bunch of software he considers harmful, such as dbus, pulse,
and systemd (as well as aptitude, *kit, ruby, mono, and networkmanager).


miro.rovis is not connected to Thorsten Glaser, though they share many
dislikes. That's about all I know.

Hope this clarifies things.

Isaac
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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[T.J. Duchene]

On 7/23/2015 5:37 AM, Teodoro Santoni wrote:

Good morning,

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:39:23PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:

[snip]
Multi-seat logins are very useful in situations where users do not understand 
how to run X11 applications with different user permissions.  It is an easy 
mechanism that is familiar to users from other systems coming over to Linux. 
You don't have to have it installed on your copy, but having an option is not a 
bad thing.


May you expand with an example? I'm truly curious about this argument.
Prior this day, I just thought it was a nonsense excuse to create an entire
bizantine framework (CK, PolK) to impede me to shut off my machine from inside
X. I'm not trolling.

If you deem it useful, it probably is, so I wish to learn more about
multi-seat logins.
I thank you and anybody who will spend some time educating me about this 
argument.



Hi Theodoro! =)

It's not an "argument" really, just a difference of opinion.  (To me, an 
"argument" is something quite different.)


UNIX was designed from the beginning to be a multi-user system. That was 
entire reason in creating it, actually.  The concept of "multi-seat" as 
a feature is being able to login and allow multiple users to use the 
same hardware independently. A lot of people would argue that Linux 
already does this, and you don't need a framework for it.  I know this 
and they know it.  It's true.The Linux multi-seat  software provides 
a framework for the easy setup of hotplug devices, X11 logins, 
permissions, and other things that need to be done to easily provide 
access to more than one user.   Yes, you can do all the setup and 
management manually.  Why should you? The whole point of software is to 
spend more time being actually productive, not reinventing the wheel 
because you have to do every step manually.


What I personally do not understand (and what seems to get me into 
trouble) is the animosity toward multi-seat, pulseaudio, or anything 
else for that matter.  I'm not trying to bring old disagreements back 
into the mix, so please let's not go there, ladies and gentlemen.  I 
just want to expound on something that I think is very important when 
discussing multi-seat or anything else in the future.   There are other 
people besides you and me, and who do not have the skill to do these 
things manually.  They do not want to be told "RTFM."  They just want to 
plug the silly thing in and get their work done.  I believe that is 
reasonable and not asking for too much.  If you don't want to use a 
package, you don't have to. Multi-seat, Pulseaudio, and even Systemd are 
nothing more than tools.  If it does not fit the job you are doing, 
don't use it. No one wastes time getting angry about a pipewrench 
because it can't drive in a nail like a hammer.   I hope Devuan enforces 
as few requirements as possible, but leaves room for people who want all 
the bells and whistles - because you want more people using it, not less.


Linux is a very big place and there is plenty of room for everyone to 
play the way that they want to.



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Re: [DNG] systemd in the era of hotplugable devices

[pp]

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:00:48 +0200, Oz Tiram  wrote:




Please explain it to me with out flames. [1]:  
http://sysadmin.tme520.net/systemd-our-songs-of-innocence/



Cannot explain but I like this article very much. Especially this :

"Now, for at least a couple of years, two versions of Linux will coexist :  
Production Linux (without Systemd) and Leisure Linux (LenKay OS, with  
Systemd)."


I totally agree.

If we just simply repeat and repeat and repeat that Linux with systemd is  
a kind of "Leisure Linux" for gaming and  entertainment  ( some kind of  
Home Edition Linux), repeat and wait, then Google will do the rest  
indexing all that statements.


:D

--
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Vlad]

Alsa uses dbus, since when?
On Jul 23, 2015 7:12 PM, "Steve Litt"  wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200
> Michael Bütow  wrote:
>
>
> > I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus
> > related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it.
>
> For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
> getting rid of it would involve something like the following:
>
> * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use
> of dbus.
>
> * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or
> not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and
> wpa_supplicant to "dial in" Wifi.
>
> Put a command into your init system that kills the dbus started in your
> initramfs. I personally wouldn't recommend tampering with your
> initramfs itself.
>
> In your init system, get rid of commands that start or modify a running
> dbus.
>
> Get rid of Pulseaudio (obviously, and not just to get away from dbus),
> get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss
> and rexima.
>
> You might have to tell several of your GUI programs not to do
> notifications, because they notify to dbus without the option to notify
> other ways.
>
> It's probably not going to be that difficult for the average Devuan
> user to get rid of dbus if s/he wants to.
>
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Joel Roth]

Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200
> Michael Bütow  wrote:
> 
> > I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus
> > related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it.
> 
> For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
> getting rid of it would involve something like the following:

(other steps)

> get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss
> and rexima.

ALSA doesn't depend on DBus.

-- 
Joel Roth
  

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[DNG] Thorsten Glaser? was: Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 16:18:22 +0200
miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:


> What fundamentalists? The Gentoo folks? Thorsten mirabilos Glaser with
> his MirDebian "WTF" project, a fundamentalist? Me, a fundamentalist?

What's the relationship between Thorsten Glaser, mirabilos, and
miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr ?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[miro . rovis]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> I do not understand this entire thread.
> 
> I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be.
> What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning?
> What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?
>

> -- hendrik

(corrected typoes in your input, if that's not what you meant, cry foul!)

Hi, hendrik!

Yes, WTF probably means that (but they may have another excuse-name
along).

They were really outraged at the Debian Developers in charge for not
allowing the name, wait, I got to search for it... (I'll search from the
first message in this thread, the one with a host of links, by me)...
Yes I think it's in the first.

At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made:

systemd-must-die

find it in the:

How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=15#p550700
(second page)

I can remember and tell about it because I wrote to them:

(same topic)
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484
(third page)

but it was almost certainly censored out but the then provider of mine,

You can find the link in that same "stealth install" topic to:

Postfix smtp-tls-wrapper, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, a Zerk Provider
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html

which if you open, you easily find:

status=bounced (host 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1] said: 550-"JunkMail rejected -
147-226.dsl.iskon.hr (n4m3.localdomain) 550-[89.164.147.226]:41972 is in
an RBL, see 550

and you can, if you have time and are interested in fighting censorship,
study around there, as well as (not confirmed, only suspected):

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.180226.3ff750a1.en.html
where find:

550 Unrouteable address (when I send email to Thorsten)

and imagine what happened. Did mirabilos quit Debian? I don't know, but
being that he provides packages for Debian, I don't think it's likely.

So if you are interested about why they call it that, that's probably
it. For more, one can read that resumé topic of mine, which although 12
forum pages, is much, much shorter than the very ample discussion on DD
List.

I wrote those forum pages of resumé for DD List discussions, after I
read pretty much all of the then recent DD mail archive,

So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of
the name. Everything is being killed all the time in Unix, jobs and
processes, but systemd was not allowed to die, by some moralist DD.

To be honest, I'm not sure about the details of the prevent-systemd
packages now. I would be if I were to install it, but I'm waiting for
Devuan to get dbus-free, or allow dbus freedom in some way... Maybe
mirabilos mada a package of his own, probably so, yeah, and didn't build
on wookey's package...

So I haven't (so far) made contact with Thorsten mirabilos Glaser, the
founder of MirBSD, but should Devuan eventually fail to provide a
no-dbus and no-poetterware desktop, I might have to, forced to search
for options, also be learning more about it...  Who knows. I won't be
running a dbus- or a poetterware- nothing.

But I hope you at Devuan will be working to get a distro that can be
installed hardened, no-dbus, no-any-poetterware and associates, and
maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan
WTF for Devuan needs...

But I am really not a dev, and I really have spoken enough I believe.
Unless someone has questions, or either T.J Duchene or James Powell
decide to reply to my questions to them, or launch some counter
questions, I'll be looking for my exit from contributing to this
developers' list, and follow you silently.

The links to MirBSD are, in the 1st page above mentioned, only, use the
domain only:

MirBSD
https://www.mirbsd.org/

and it is called after his nickname, mirabilos, I believe.

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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[DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200
Michael Bütow  wrote:


> I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus
> related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it.

For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that
getting rid of it would involve something like the following:

* Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use
of dbus.

* Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or
not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and
wpa_supplicant to "dial in" Wifi.

Put a command into your init system that kills the dbus started in your
initramfs. I personally wouldn't recommend tampering with your
initramfs itself.

In your init system, get rid of commands that start or modify a running
dbus.

Get rid of Pulseaudio (obviously, and not just to get away from dbus),
get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss
and rexima.

You might have to tell several of your GUI programs not to do
notifications, because they notify to dbus without the option to notify
other ways.

It's probably not going to be that difficult for the average Devuan
user to get rid of dbus if s/he wants to.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Hendrik Boom]

I do not understand this entire thread.

I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be.
What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the eaning?
What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[miro . rovis]

---
I sent this message four hours ago, but didn't include the list
address. Sorry!
---

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:49:34PM -0700, James Powell wrote:

( shouldn't it be like below?, by the netiqette --see KalolaZ just
arrived letter in the Multi-seat thread-- ? )

> > Since you would still like it around, in opportunistic or in some other
> > way that I should call it, I think a question is due.
> > Can you tell to the public what is the purpose of the
> > user-not-asked-about, in fact mostly user-never-even-knowing-about-it
> > encrypted ssh channel that dbus sets up, along with all the
> > non-GNU-compatible remote procedure calls (which are there for what
> > purpose?) that dbus implements?
> > 
> > Is that for FOSS stands for?
> > 
> First off cool your jets, and trying call me out on knowing the
> internals of an IPC in Userspace I didn't develop is very childish.
>
Why not? If you're promoting it, or persuading Devuan into the
acceptance of it?

Anyway, can anyone answer that question?

> I honestly don't care if D-Bus what it does other than be a
> communication and messaging relay between applications and processes,
> as long as it does what it does, and doesn't infringe on anything
> else.
> 
> D-Bus is used and is a requirement for some services and software.
> You're unfortunately not going to have your cake and coffee with
> getting rid of D-Bus.
Well then, keep it for those cases, don't put it in all the Devuan boxen
by default. Will be fine!

> Yes, it's not the greatest design, but it is
> friendly at least to the whole UNIX spectrum.
>
"friendly"... No comment.

> Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency
> and allowing user choice in init software, not ripping apart every
> project to cater to ever niche and fundamentalist out there preaching
> what they feel is FOSS, and also to not start a witch hunt on software
> projects.
What fundamentalists? The Gentoo folks? Thorsten mirabilos Glaser with
his MirDebian "WTF" project, a fundamentalist? Me, a fundamentalist?

What do you mean? My desire to, after have achived it for me (but only
in Gentoo), some freedom and some security, to teach, if we get a
true-foss Devuan that can get its MirDevuan "WTF" fork for itself, to
teach newbies to build their system hardened-against-intrusion and
surveillance-defeating, that desire of mine a fundamentalist desire?
---
The rest cut out because somewhat made disorderly and illegible by
probably hotmail defaults (that the immediate sender who I'm replying to
apparently uses) or for some other reason.
---
Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[Vlad]

Yeah, but that is why we have VNC for.
As I said, multiseat is pretty much useless.
Hell, the proprietary software can be installed on a server and run from
anywhere.
On Jul 23, 2015 6:32 AM, "Isaac Dunham"  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 03:49:32AM +0300, Vlad wrote:
> > I think that the pretty useless feature which helped systemd into Debian
> in the first place was discussed some time ago.
> > As you might know multi seat is supposed  to make possible for multiple
> users to utilize a single desktop or laptop system in full blown GUI mode
> via special USB  hubs, the main selling point of this curiosity was as a
> way to run schools in 3rd world countries.
> > However these extension hubs actually cost more than a Raspberry Pi, and
> the Pi has the extra selling point that the student can take it home and
> use it there.
> > I do not see any real need for silly things like multi seat and with
> every nanometer less and every new cell phone the price and power
> consumption per Ghz falls.
> > In my opinion 99+% of users really won't care about this curiosity,
> which is a cool concept with less and less actual relevance or practical
> purpose behind it with every passing day.
>
> Somehow it seems to me like someone trying to reinvent the dumb terminal,
> but with less distance possible.
> I could imagine one situation where it makes sense:
>  $site is running commercial software for x86{,_64}, licensed on a per-
>  processor basis with multiple users permitted; said commercial software
>  requires a decent processor but not much GPU.
>
> Other than that, I can't picture a use.
>
> All that said, I *can* picture a way to implement it using X(fbdev?) and
> perhaps mdev (which I thought about not long ago...):
> - *disable* input device hotplug in X11
> - keyboards get renamed /dev/input/kbd$N, like how mice are named
> - for new keyboards, mice, and framebuffer/drm nodes, run a helper
>   script that will spawn an X11 login if the appropriate devices exist
>   for the current $N.
> You could even use hard links, bind mounts, and unshare to make
> restricted containers for different users.
> (I'm thinking of putting hard links to the device in /dev/seat$N/, but
> with normal naming conventions under that. Then each seat gets a new
> mount namespace and a private bind-mount over /dev.)
>
> In theory, that should be a pretty small amount of work.
> But I don't have any hardware suitable for testing, and don't feel that
> it really justifies getting said hardware.
>
> Thanks,
> Isaac Dunham
>
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 01:58:28PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 23/07/2015 10:36, T.J. Duchene a écrit :
> >>  Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to 
> >> replace the
> >>own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But
> >>Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4.
> >>
> >>  Didier
> >>
> >I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS.  Could you please explain 
> >why it is such a point of contention?  It is a only a protocol, with many 
> >different implementations.   It is comfortably very generic and usedon other 
> >UNIXs.
> >
> 
> Not a strong animosity. I think the question of designing a
> middleware should be addressed with more carefull thinking if to
> become a standard. In particular with simplicity in mind.
> 
> For the use Xfce4 makes of it, which is the means to stop the
> session (AFAIU), I consider it overcomplicated.
> 

I mostly agree with you Didier about the necessity to have clear in
mind objectives before even starting writing the first line of code of
a "middleware", but if a man gets stabbed and dies, can we complain
with the knife-maker for making knives available on the market?

If really xfce needs dbus only to stop a session, the problem is to be
attributed to xfce developers, who are overcomplicating something that
was simple by adding an unnecessary dependency.

And we come back to what I think is the original problem: there is
nowadays a rising majority of developers, in all fields, who simply
ignore the basics of UNIX and KISS-thinking, and keep throwing on
board all kinds of shit just because "it makes things more simple" in
their eyes...

EndOfTheRant

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[Fernando M. Maresca]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 03:49:32AM +0300, Vlad wrote:
> I think that the pretty useless feature which helped systemd into Debian in 
> the
> first place was discussed some time ago.

Better footprint, less power consumption.

I rutinelly do two and three seat ws without any expensive usb hub: a
us$5 usb hub can manage two pairs of keyboard and mouse, and most mb
these days have 6 usb ports. lightdm and xfce4 play nice in these
config. 

cheers,

-- 
Fernando M. Maresca
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Cel: 221 15 545 8196
Tel: 221 450 5378
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 23/07/2015 10:36, T.J. Duchene a écrit :

  Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to replace the
own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But
Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4.

  Didier


I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS.  Could you please explain why 
it is such a point of contention?  It is a only a protocol, with many different 
implementations.   It is comfortably very generic and usedon other UNIXs.



Not a strong animosity. I think the question of designing a 
middleware should be addressed with more carefull thinking if to become 
a standard. In particular with simplicity in mind.


For the use Xfce4 makes of it, which is the means to stop the 
session (AFAIU), I consider it overcomplicated.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[Teodoro Santoni]

Good morning,

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:39:23PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>[snip]
>Multi-seat logins are very useful in situations where users do not understand 
>how to run X11 applications with different user permissions.  It is an easy 
>mechanism that is familiar to users from other systems coming over to Linux. 
>You don't have to have it installed on your copy, but having an option is not 
>a bad thing.
> 

May you expand with an example? I'm truly curious about this argument.
Prior this day, I just thought it was a nonsense excuse to create an entire 
bizantine framework (CK, PolK) to impede me to shut off my machine from inside 
X. I'm not trolling.
If you deem it useful, it probably is, so I wish to learn more about 
multi-seat logins.
I thank you and anybody who will spend some time educating me about this 
argument.

--
Teodoro Santoni

Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files.
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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 05:05:52AM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > Guys, I have serious problems understanding what is the point of this 
> > thread,
> > really. And lenghty emails with many interleaving, fragmented discussions
> > and cross-quoting from several different sources are far from helpful.
> 
> Hi KatolaZ!
> 
> I assure you it was never my intention to offend anyone, including Miro.  If 
> I have done so, then I apologize not only to you and Miro but to everyone for 
> my part.  I admit I was slightly annoyed but meant only to very politely 
> suggest that Miro tone it down a little.  My best wishes to him (or her) are 
> entirely sincere.  Honestly, I did not expect problems.  I feel like I have 
> walked into a bear trap.  =P   This might sound silly and naïve to you, but I 
> genuinely do not comprehend animosity at times.  


Hi, 

my point was that by reading the thread, made by lengthy and
fragmented emails charcaterised by cross-quoting, top-quoting, and
bad-quoting, it was actually *impossible* for me to understand what
the thread was really about, and far harder to get if anybody had made
any good suggestion or had the intention to offend or attack anybody
else :D

If you have offended me or anybody else, I haven't had the opportunity
to notice it by reading those emails. And I have not been able to
discern if there were any good technical points made, or any good idea
or proposal either. 


>  
> > I am wondering whether we shall eventually decide to adopt a proper
> > netiquette for this ML...
> 
> I quite agree. I will leave this discussion abandoned and not feed it.
> 
> I wish you boys a wonderful evening.
> 

It was not my intention to urge for the thread to be terminated,
rather to ask the participants to be considerate in quoting and
replying. Otherwise the most likely result you obtain is just being
ignored and some (maybe good) points going unnoticed, and that would
be a shame.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[T.J. Duchene]

On 7/23/2015 5:16 AM, Laurent Bercot wrote:



 I agree that it's a fight for another time, though.

TY!  The information was very simple and very helpful.  It's a design 
flaw that annoys everyone so.  This is quite understandable. It has been 
my experience that a lot of code - FOSS or not - is a series of hacks 
that could be better designed.  It is a sad truth of our profession.


=)

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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Laurent Bercot]

On 23/07/2015 10:36, T.J. Duchene wrote:

I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS.  Could you please
explain why it is such a point of contention?  It is a only a
protocol, with many different implementations.   It is comfortably
very generic and used on other UNIXs.


 Simple: it has a horrific design and implementation. It actually
exhibits the same technical problems as systemd: it is a monolithic
thing that attempts to do everything, and manages to do everything
badly.

 AFAIK, there are no political problems with D-Bus; the political
issue comes from those who want to integrate it into the kernel. But
boy, are there technical problems. I pity every maintainer in charge
of software that uses D-Bus.
 Just one single example:
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1930358/focus=1939166
 Using that many resources is horrendous, and a sure sign of terrible,
terrible engineering.

 I agree that it's a fight for another time, though.

--
 Laurent
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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[T.J. Duchene]

> Guys, I have serious problems understanding what is the point of this thread,
> really. And lenghty emails with many interleaving, fragmented discussions
> and cross-quoting from several different sources are far from helpful.

Hi KatolaZ!

I assure you it was never my intention to offend anyone, including Miro.  If I 
have done so, then I apologize not only to you and Miro but to everyone for my 
part.  I admit I was slightly annoyed but meant only to very politely suggest 
that Miro tone it down a little.  My best wishes to him (or her) are entirely 
sincere.  Honestly, I did not expect problems.  I feel like I have walked into 
a bear trap.  =P   This might sound silly and naïve to you, but I genuinely do 
not comprehend animosity at times.  
 
> I am wondering whether we shall eventually decide to adopt a proper
> netiquette for this ML...

I quite agree. I will leave this discussion abandoned and not feed it.

I wish you boys a wonderful evening.

T.J.


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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 10:54:06AM +0200, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:
> Is it because you send from (pasting from your header):
> 
> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
> Thunderbird/38.1.0
> 
> or is it for some other reason (or for both or/and other reasons yet),
> who can tell?
> 
> But...
> > 
> > 
> > On 7/23/2015 12:01 AM, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:
> > >Because, prove me wrong.
> > Miro,  I truly wish you well, but feel no need to prove anything to you. :-)
> >
> If you are developing for the public who want to use Free Open Source
> Software, you may need to be at least kind, not in such attempted
> condiscending protecting fashion like the line above would want to
> sound, but sincerely kind, at least to some extent, and also truthful in
> recognizing actual arguments put to you regarding the software they you
> want to develop, or develop with, and which they want to use.

Guys, I have serious problems understanding what is the point of this
thread, really. And lenghty emails with many interleaving, fragmented
discussions and cross-quoting from several different sources are far
from helpful.

I am wondering whether we shall eventually decide to adopt a proper
netiquette for this ML...

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[miro . rovis]

Is it because you send from (pasting from your header):

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/38.1.0

or is it for some other reason (or for both or/and other reasons yet),
who can tell?

But...
> 
> 
> On 7/23/2015 12:01 AM, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:
> >Because, prove me wrong.
> Miro,  I truly wish you well, but feel no need to prove anything to you. :-)
>
If you are developing for the public who want to use Free Open Source
Software, you may need to be at least kind, not in such attempted
condiscending protecting fashion like the line above would want to
sound, but sincerely kind, at least to some extent, and also truthful in
recognizing actual arguments put to you regarding the software they you
want to develop, or develop with, and which they want to use.
> >Often the surveillors most used tools, since otherwise they wouldn't be
> >able to follow their targets, is exactly multiseats. They see, sitting in
> >their bunkers, which public at large has mostly never any notion about,
> >and thanks to stuff like dbus, multiseat, pulseaudio (pulsoaudio was
> >designed by those tools of the one-Ring-cravers for eavesdropping!), and
> >surely systemd goes to perfection in bulk collection and worse!...
> >
[Remember the "But... " above. My Mutt showing me this, from the
Thunderbird GUI that T.J. Duchene uses, mangled, and I don't see it
displayed clearly on:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150723.073512.9673917a.en.html
either...
> >They see, sitting in their bunkers, their target's every move, every move!
> >On their screen, replicated what the torget does. In real time! And most
> >of them wouldn't be able to follow their targets without such aides,
> >because they're not all experts, really. A little harder following their
> >tagets without any poetterware. A disclaimer: fine, the spies following
> >targets, fine! When we really talk terrorists and criminals, you should
> >follow those, I approve of that! But for the love of God, not wholesale
> >surveillance on the general population, please! Regards!
> 
> 
> The reason we prefer FOSS to proprietary code is that the source code is
> open.  You should never infer such things about other people and their
> contributions to FOSS without proof, which you can easily get.
What proof? That there exists mass surveillance by most all big subjects
that can afford it? You need proofs for that?

That the RPC in dbus are made so that the programs in unixdom could work
with proprietory programs? I'm really no expert on this one, but I did
remember it well when a programmer complained about it. And I simply
believed. Just like I believe Jude C. Nelson when he said no need of
dbus for vdev (which I must repeat, is great to know!).

> If you have proof of these things, please post the relevant portions
> of the source code so that I might see these things, and offer you my
> deepest thanks.
Again, what proofs? That there is bulk data collection?

And if there is bulk data collection, the new term, previous term: mass
surveillance... If is it there, and I don't think you can denied that
there is, then:

Do you really really think they wouldn't want to get into all of unixdom
like they have in their pocket everything, I mean everything (and I'm
only citing Edward Snowden, the American hero), all of appledom and all
of M$ windillidillidom.

Do you really really think they wouldn't get their f**ing tools (only
citing Christopher Barry, find the link on, wait, I'll copy it from
there:
ttp://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 
(copied from:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.143942.1c1b286a.en.html
))
Do you really really think they wouldn't get their tools (Poettering,
Sievers and cameraderie), to work, and work hard to open the unixdom to
them like the appledom and windillidillidom? (Sorry I really hate
windoze).  What do you think they pay them such money for? To make the
world freeer and nicer? Or to serve their one-ring-to-rule-them-all
purposes?
> Until you have real proof, baseless rumor and innuendo damage people's
> reputations for no reason.  It is wrong, and it is in very poor taste.
> Without proof, no one will take you seriously, and rightly so.
>
Poor taste is Windoze, and overwhelmed in such poor taste, you have
difficulty understanding my arguments. Maybe because you don't want to
admit the truth.

Poor taste is Windoze, if we know history, and many in Devuan do, and
always will, I hope. How much has that Billy the bandit (morally so),
turned (of recent) eugenic philantropist, made this world a more stupid
and less free place... (I mean Bill Gates if someone is in doubt).

Is it that you have no access to a *nix OS, or is it why? Do you like
Windoze?  How can someone like Windoze and develop in Linux, I sincerely
don't understand that.
> Be well, Miro.
>
I'm well. I'm afraid you are not, as there is no goodness in what you
use, and something could be very disharmonious in that for you and for
Devuan.

Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[T.J. Duchene]

> 
>  Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to replace 
> the
> own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But
> Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4.
> 
>  Didier
> 
I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS.  Could you please explain why 
it is such a point of contention?  It is a only a protocol, with many different 
implementations.   It is comfortably very generic and used on other UNIXs.




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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[T.J. Duchene]

On 7/23/2015 12:49 AM, James Powell wrote:
First off cool your jets, and trying call me out on knowing the 
internals of an IPC in Userspace I didn't develop is very childish.


I honestly don't care if D-Bus what it does other than be a 
communication and messaging relay between applications and processes, 
as long as it does what it does, and doesn't infringe on anything else.


D-Bus is used and is a requirement for some services and software. 
You're unfortunately not going to have your cake and coffee with 
getting rid of D-Bus. Yes, it's not the greatest design, but it is 
friendly at least to the whole UNIX spectrum.


Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency 
and allowing user choice in init software, not ripping apart every 
project to cater to ever niche and fundamentalist out there preaching 
what they feel is FOSS, and also to not start a witch hunt on software 
projects.





Well said, James!  =)  In saying so I am not being critical of Miro.  
Devuan needs a clear purpose.




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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/07/2015 20:51, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200
miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:


On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote:


If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus.


Vdev does not use dbus.  No idea how or why you came to this
conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me.

-Jude

I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad
that I was wrong!

Am I the only one who doesn't understand one word of this thread?

I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system,
it would lack dbus. I was actually able to accomplish that with one
alternate-initted Manjaro-OpenRC. No dbus. I used oss instead of alsa,
and it worked great.

SteveT

Like you I mostly understood the wrong assertion that vdev was 
using dbus, and the answer.


Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to 
replace the own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome 
nor KDE. But Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?

[T.J. Duchene]

On 7/23/2015 12:01 AM, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote:

Because, prove me wrong.
Miro,  I truly wish you well, but feel no need to prove anything to you. 
:-)


Often the surveillors most used tools, since otherwise they wouldn't 
be able to follow their targets, is exactly multiseats. They see, 
sitting in their bunkers, which public at large has mostly never any 
notion about, and thanks to stuff like dbus, multiseat, pulseaudio 
(pulsoaudio was designed by those tools of the one-Ring-cravers for 
eavesdropping!), and surely systemd goes to perfection in bulk 
collection and worse!...


They see, sitting in their bunkers, their target's every move, every 
move! On their screen, replicated what the torget does. In real time! 
And most of them wouldn't be able to follow their targets without such 
aides, because they're not all experts, really. A little harder 
following their tagets without any poetterware. A disclaimer: fine, 
the spies following targets, fine! When we really talk terrorists and 
criminals, you should follow those, I approve of that! But for the 
love of God, not wholesale surveillance on the general population, 
please! Regards! 



The reason we prefer FOSS to proprietary code is that the source code is 
open.  You should never infer such things about other people and their 
contributions to FOSS without proof, which you can easily get.  If you 
have proof of these things, please post the relevant portions of the 
source code so that I might see these things, and offer you my deepest 
thanks.  Until you have real proof, baseless rumor and innuendo damage 
people's reputations for no reason.  It is wrong, and it is in very poor 
taste.  Without proof, no one will take you seriously, and rightly so.


Be well, Miro.



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