[DNG] Lead or follow? this decade’s dilemma for GNU/Linux based ICT industry
s and some investments and donations today I can tell systemd has not been a problem for me, but an opportunity. To develop an alternative and facilitate a community around it took us about the same time required to adopt any new system imposed by RedHat or IBM in our operations. By choosing to lead rather than follow we gained not just superior security and efficiency for the past 5 years: we bootstrapped a community of valuable leaders as we all dared to fork of Debian. Today we rank #2 worldwide by user reviews on Distrowatch. Welcome to devuan.org | Devuan GNU+Linux Free Operating System Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding… But lets not look at the finger pointing at the moon: this is not just about the technical choice of an init system or a system administration framework. this dynamic will repeat in many forms and there will be gains for those who have the courage to lead rather than follow. Far from the systemd debacle, at the end of CentOS as we knew it, one of its founders started Rocky Linux to continue the original mission of delivering a free and stable enterprise grade distro based on RPM packaging. Rocky Linux Rocky Linux is an open enterprise Operating System designed to be 100% bug-for-bug compatible with Enterprise Linux. What do we in common is that we are seizing the opportunity to develop an alternative or, even better, we are sharing an opportunity with everyone out there who dares to differ. The investments are coming and the market is growing: the space is there for those who dare to take it and the risks aren’t so high all things considered. Now is the time to break the chain of growing dependencies with IBM/Linux before it turns SMEs and public sector institutions into security nightmares. What we will soon need for this alternative to be established is the trust from bigger players in public and private sectors, to rely on these efforts and fund them: this is in everyone’s interest, I argue, since our efforts will provide better quality and will lower costs and complexity of ICT infrastructure. The opportunity is in the hands of decision makers across the ICT industry: now is the time we can invest on the talent and future growth of alternatives. Early good signs are there: grants like DECODE (EU flagship project) have funded the development of Devuan for its deployment in decentralized networks, as well NLNET funding Maemo-leste a fantastic port of Linux (not Android) for embedded devices and mobile phones. Rocky Linux seems to catch up quickly with the enterprise market it aims at and has established a small round of SMEs adopters. I believe the opportunity is there for new players to take their place as leaders. Too-big-to-fail conglomerates have shown in the past to be a rather toxic presence for the ease of maintenance and reliability of systems. Paradoxically we aren’t even the alternative: we are the conservatives in a declining world of “fail fast fail often”. We are those who intend to ship stable systems to let all users enjoy a life made of less risks and more free time. For more background information about Devuan, see: • The Debian fork original announcement • Coverage by The Register • Coverage by Heise • My Ph.D thesis chapter about Devuan • Devuan presented at FOSDEM 2019 Devuan® is the registered trademark of the Dyne.org foundation. Linux® is the registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. Dyne.org Think &Do Tank — we are free to share code and we code to share freedom No (C) - Public domain. -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто क्रिप्टो 加密 التشفير הצפנה ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] [OT] dyne.org server migration
dear dng'ers Today we finished the migration of core infrastructure servers at dyne.org including the ones running this mailinglist and serving devuan developers with the video conference and crypto pad web applications. It seems all went smoothly, this mail is to inform you and to have a final test on production lists. I will be at Devuan's dev meeting later today for feedback. To all those following the Gregorian calendar, my best wishes: HNY! ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто क्रिप्टो 加密 التشفير הצפנה ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] notice of spam incident
dear readers, at Dyne.org we are proud to host our own SMTP and mailinglists, but that comes at a price of infrastructure, time and risk as most of you know. On the 16 of September, after a long term bruteforcing attack operated from a botnet of almost 2k notes against our imaps accounts, someone got hold of the weak password of a community domain we host and used it during the weekend between the 20 and the 23 September to send a considerable amount of spam from our mail server. As a consequence we have been contacted by our academic uplink in Europe yesterday monday morning, while being blacklisted by a number of services. We have since then identified the issue, identified the breach, mitigated and took future precautions. A full dossier on the accident has been made available to our uplink as well to SORBS and other spam blocklist operators requesting it. Most of the blocks imposed on our mail server will last until tomorrow 25 September, after that we presume our SMTP will be functioning normally. If you notice any anomaly, please report it to me in private and/or kindly proceed yourself to delist our mail.dyne.org IP. I apologize for the inconvenience and wish everyone all the best ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Qemu with Beowulf host / Ascii guest dies without much of an error message
On Fri, 16 Aug 2019, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: > On 8/12/19 4:00 PM, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > [snip] > > Well, a slightly irrelevant, and perhaps well known observation: I have > > come to think that the most flexible networking for my local VM's is the > > "vde mode". It does need a small amount of initial plumbing, with a > > (single) supporting tap, and then either a bridge or routing plus local > > dhcp. This ends up with a networking "portal" through a (shared) socket > > that the qemu processes happily connect to. > [snip] > > Thanks. That has been useful. The guest now is visible on the same > network as the host. I'm glad it worked out, I'm also using Qemu a lot (of course, on Devuan) but with less complex needs, in many cases to emulate Cortex chips running unikernel programs: no problems arise. and thanks Ralph for the "vde mode" tip, good foor for thought! it may serve well to replace the use of Docker in prototyping workflow. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan conference videos hosting
On Mon, 15 Jul 2019, Dimitris via Dng wrote: > On 7/14/19 3:09 PM, B. R. via Dng wrote: > > I cannot help but notice the videos from the first Devuan conference > > (https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference/) are hosted on > > YouTube. My FOSS (with "free" as in "non-captive") nerve is itching. > > > another suggestion, would be using peertube > (https://joinpeertube.org/en/ ) as a foss alternative to yt. > not just for devuan..., in general. :) we are waiting for a final edit to fix the audio of most of the videos, which is mostly on a single channel only: once that is done we may also host them on something more permanent that cannot be updated anymore, like torrents, I guess. all said, I am also not a fan of yt tech and invasiveness, but I guess it should also be mentioned that the audience we can get on that platform is by far superior than any other platform - and the main point of the conference recordings is really that of outreach. however, as usual, sharing is caring ciao! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan AMI
On Tue, 21 May 2019, Josef Grosch via Dng wrote: > On 5/21/19 2:13 AM, Antony Stone wrote: > > On Tuesday 21 May 2019 at 03:34:55, Josef Grosch via Dng wrote: > > > >> Greetings, > >> > >> Is there a community Devuan AMI out there? > > Sorry, what's AMI in this context? > > > I was looking for an AMI (Amazon Machine Image) of Devuan. perhaps what Alexey is working on here comes of use https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20190514.143417.a5160e38.en.html he is asking for feedback on the devuan-dev mailinglist quote """ I've been busy with Packer and have added more cloud builds and images of Devuan Ascii for more clouds. Currently, the following clouds build (and work), with some images available for immediate use: 1. AWS EC2 2. AliYun (AlibabaCloud) ECS 3. Microsoft Azure https://github.com/ConsulTent/devuan-builder/ I've posted what images I could public. Please test, use, give feedback, etc. :) """ ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Review: Intro to Devuan GNU+Linux, A Great Operating System without Systemd
dear Lars, On Sun, 19 May 2019, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: > Ubuntu Buzz has a nice review of Devuan: > > "Intro to Devuan GNU+Linux, A Great Operating System > without Systemd" > > > http://www.ubuntubuzz.com/2019/05/intro-to-devuan-gnulinux-great-operating-system-without-systemd.html thanks for the notification, its on our twitter feed now ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cease battling each other in e-mail (was: Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.)
dear Rick, I wholeheartedly agree with you and others here that this communication shouldn't have been public, I also consider this a damage procured to the project, which I did not start nor was able to mediate. As I admitted in devuan-dev, I don't think I'm apt for mediation on this issue anymore. On Wed, 24 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > Nobody should be forced out, nobody should be driven to quit unfortunately this has happened, plus a series of other events, which have then been represented here in a manipulative way. I now believe I was wrong in nurturing this thread. My mistake came from fear that people wouldn't understand what is going on. I'm sorry for the noise. FTR I agree with you about the noble meaning of (non institutional?) politics. I should have used just the term populism. I do believe Devuan caretakers should show their care for Devuan by dedicating themselves to solve conflicts in private and within those in charge, rather than bring it to public this way. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019, KatolaZ wrote: > Counting individual contributions to a voluntary project is totally > pointless: since there is no price tag on "one hour of voluntary > work", then a voluntary contribution of one hour is as important and > as valuable as 1000 hours of voluntary contribution. Noone can ask a > volunteer to work more, or to work less, or to work at all, because a > volunteer is a free man/woman devoted to a cause. Devuan is made by a > community of voluntaries, not by single egos. Making contributions as > much as possible *invisible*, anonymising, hiding, de-personalising, > collectivising, this is the only way through IMHO, the only way to let > a community shine. If anything will last, it will be Devuan as a > whole, not any of the volunteers who have put it into existence. > > "A leader is best > When people barely know he exists > Of a good leader, who talks little, > When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, > They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' > ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching Precisely. I am afraid though, that people will just go on writing "please stay <3" letters to CenturionDan, (who is the one responsible for Katolaz to leave, for the CI for being down, for this drama here) without even thinking how other volunteers feel like. Because this is how politics work: personalisations, egos and populism. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up in public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All his past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and concerns before the project's health. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019, Daniel Reurich wrote: > I am now at the point where given this latest assault on my character > and contributions by Jaromil, that I must honestly question whether I > continue to be useful to this community and Devuan as a distribution. I believe there was no assault from my side. Anyone decently trained in text analysis may correct me: my assertions on the outage provoked by lack of coordination have not been judgemental. I have just denoted facts and doing my best to be fair to other caretakers, who also deserve holiday periods. Also I believe this is not the place to air all what we think of each other actions and possible solutions, but devuan-dev. I am a confused by the fact you keep either by mistake or by intention to post this personalising drama here. All summed up I think that if we cannot trust a caretaker to keep all this drama inside then we also have a third problematic action to take into account. Noone needs drama, we need a working Devuan. The 1st april fallout, The unplanned CI maintainance and now this drama are all episodes who are damaging Devuan. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please, inform users about the current 'health' of Devuan.
Many thanks Aitor and Ed for your concern and understanding. Rest reassured that Devuan keeps its integrity, we will grow healthy from all difficulties, learning to avoid them in the future. I believe the devuan conference talk that Katolaz left us so far contains very good hints on the reasons why Devuan cannot be easily compromised, by design, or should I say, by its minimalist design. the provisional video is here and we are still working to fix the audio (right now only right channel works) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DkuBxvJuc ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] ci.devuan.org is down
I'm sorry the communication needs to be decontextualized and shifted around, we are obviously handling an "internal" reorganisation of Devuan's tasks and responsibilities and everyone who is cabable here is welcome to get involved via the devuan-dev list. I'll reply here in order to clarify for those curious and then move back to the other list. On Sat, 20 Apr 2019, Daniel Reurich wrote: > I was working on that server because I had discovered all source build > jobs would fail consistently at between 4 and 6 seconds with a killed > process. These jobs run on the master node, ie on this server as the > jenkins user. I had discussed the issue with parazyd the day before, > but he could offer no answers as to the consistent build failures across > all the source jobs I'd tried. wild guess: /var full given some planning, we can definitely find out. I'd like to clarify to all readers that this glitch constitutes no treath to Devuan's integrity and that other caretakers have been more consistently monitoring and studying the CI current installation and planned evolution so this is just about recapping and clarifying that interventions need to be planned. > With KatolaZ gone, I'm the only other regular package builder these > days. this is a false statement. We build regularly packages on our own CI at Dyne and even more people at maemo-leste. We have duplicated the build infra in order to experiment and improve without affecting Devuan. We are now ready to contribute upstream (to Devuan) our progresses. Meanwhile Dan please do not take any initiative without agreeing with all caretakers. > > Also as far as I'm aware, I'm pretty much the only person who has been > hands on with that server in any meaningful way particularly with > respect to maintenance and support for it. this is a false statement as well. I am actually worried by this. > Given that my particular > domain within Devuan has been heavily oriented in the build system then > I think it's reasonable that when it's broke I don't need to wait for a > full committee to get an approval to fix it - particularly given it was > an urgent issue and essentially all builds were broken. Daniel, you do need to wait, enjoy the Easter and later communicate all your thoughts and intentions regarding Devuan since we need to re-align everyone to reality. > In the normal circumstances, yes I agree that is reasonable. This > wasn't routine maintenance. This was problem solving where I'd > spent many hours over 2 days working on the issue before deciding a > reboot was a reasonable next move. I'm sorry for that. The outcome is a problem for everyone, more hours to be spent by more people and during holidays. I hope you reconsider this course of action as an error on your side. > I agree, and I'm happy to work with whomever is interested in getting it > back up and running as soon as we can. great > That's a reasonable suggestion. But I also have more time flexibility > over easter then in my normal week. So if there is opportunity to > restore service on the original server I'd be happy to do so. But > definitely don't want to continue relying on infra where we can't have > full control. we do have full control, only takes more people to coordinate rather than a lone wolf to hack away. Devuan is primarily a community project. this thread will follow on devuan-dev. In particular, any FUD about issues of integrity affecting our infrastructure won't be given space on this list. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Planning Devuan.pro (was: Way forward)
dear Nik, On Fri, 12 Apr 2019, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > How do I apply for the list? In brief, you can do it here or on the devuan-dev list in public, detailing your business, its capacity for support and what you intend to offer for clients related do Devuan- or just contact me in private with this information, then I'll introduce you to Andrea who is now dedicated to the enterprise development of Devuan.pro. All people already involved in the Devuan community and/or development running businesses that can demonstrate the capacity to provide good quality of service / support will be included initially and free of charge. In the future, once we consolidate with a good group, new applicants will have to pay, which will nurture Devuan's funds and its capacity to cover for many necessary tasks to its growth. So far I can count among enterpreneurs interested and well capable: O'Beardly, CenturionDan, Ungleich (Nico & co) and perhaps something we'll also setup in EU (we'll come last perhaps, as we are already busy enough being the stewards of this process). We are working on refining this process and will soon update the webpage with informations about it. Yesterday at the wednesday's Devuan meeting we also had a good discussion and other caretakers are favorable to this development, which is primarly intended to let the original community side of Devuan grow without the pressure that led Katolaz to leave. We in fact all see the possibility to separate and grow a enterprise edition consortium as a great opportunity for Devuan Let me also remind that the application to a 200k equity free fund for "human-centric technologies" is still open and perhaps some of you may apply to get a good boost to start new ethical businesses https://ledgerfund.eu ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
dear Massimo and mett, thanks for your messages. I think right now they well represent the spirit of the caretakers and the actual situation. You are very welcome to get involved, through the devuan-dev list and Wednesday's dev meetings. We will face this empasse in a constructive way. Katolaz was so important to the making of ASCII and the growth of Devuan in the past 3 years that I believe his absence can be a beneficial reality check: if this project is really resilient to one developer leaving or not. Following CenturionDan's last email we definitely come to an agreement and mutual understanding of everyone's errors. We will move on now with facts, more than words: keeping Devuan alive and nurturing its growth. Everyone here is welcome to join maintainance tasks left by Katolaz. If noone will, then I'll make sure to do it myself and I'm sure other caretakers will do that too. > because the only thing that matter > is to carry on forward Yes. the only thing that matter here is Devuan, beyond anyone's feelings and professional life. And we stick to the plan. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
because I believe timing of this debate is crucial I stayed up late yesterday night to put up a mock up site without tls http://devuan.pro just to signal we are moving forward, not backwards. indeed much to do before announcing first and foremost the TLS cert. the wording and style will be improved and all advices are welcome, even off-list. details will be debated in devuan-dev ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
Fine. I accept your apologies Dan, but still believe this is not enough, now we have lost a major contributor and are in need of finding both sustainability and reliable agency. I am fully committed to the continued success of this project beyond any personal interest and believe we need to progress and perhaps extend Devuan so that it can be both a community effort and also a viable enterprise solution. Following common understanding with other caretakers and parallel to the work on the conference documentation, I have started this website, soon to be linked by Devuan's official domain, served under TLS and completed with a list of willing partners as datacenterlight, your company and whoever will like: https://devuan.pro The reason for this is well described by what Katolaz wrote us in private and I believe is very important for us to understand: """ What will happen if tomorrow you will make a real mistake and tear down the whole Devuan infrastructure for two weeks? What will happen if in a week from now anyone makes a mistake building the sysvinit package and bricks 20K Devuan installations? I will tell you: there will be somebody who will ask your head to be served on a plate, because their customers were affected by your mistakes, she/he lost money, and it's all your fault. """ As a consequence of the April's fool it is clear that our NO WARRANTY license is not enough to protect the voluntary nature of community contributions. It is also clear that the centralized architecture of our infrastructure isn't apt for the scale we are achieving. Perhaps this situation is even a compliment to our efforts since so many professionals are coming our way escaping systemd's instability and seeking reliability for their work. And perhaps, rather than being suffocated by our own success, there is even sustainability behind the corner, if we manage to accrue resources for community efforts that are beneficial to all. In the coming weeks we'll work to define a certification program with partnering organisations we verify to be capable to offer enterprise level support for Devuan. This is not to turn Devuan into a company: to the contrary, is to clearly separate community efforts from commercial ones and establish a clear relationship between the two. We will ask senior business developers to help us articulate this offer in ways that can help improve Devuan's quality for both community and enterprise uses. So lets now get beyond any futile interpersonal argument and use our gear to provide for Devuan and those who like to believe in it. Besides this immediate solution, I remain devoted to facilitate an inclusive community development process in the direction of a distributed infrastructure; but for this we need more people to get involved: capable people who have time at hand and know how to have fun developing Devuan, without being treated like unpaid employees who are held liable for the business of others. Perhaps we will even be able to pay these people, at least making their life easier doing what they love. So this is an invitation to all readers: please consider contributing to Devuan, having your company adopting it and inviting colleagues to help. The coming months will be crucial for Devuan and we really depend on this wonderful community, whose great qualities were well visible at the conference, to keep up the project. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019, John Crisp via Dng wrote: > So who out of the complainers is going to pick up the slack that they > have caused? well, one is a member of the caretakers: CenturionDan, who has ultimately caused Katolaz to drop. It all happened within a private thread related to the April's fool. I'm hereby asking CenturionDan out of the caretakers and will initiate a public and democratic process for that. I believe those of the community who want Katolaz back should first and foremost ask CenturionDan to get the hell out of the caretakers group. Meanwhile we should all take the time to watch Katolaz' presentation at the conference, whose final edit is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DkuBxvJuc Besides the enjoyable minimalist design tale he offers, this presentation very well explains why Devuan cannot be "pwned" the way the April' fools was made and how many professionals (us at Dyne.org included) are caring for distributing the liabilities and workload for it. The future of Devuan ultimately lies in this plan: distributing its infrastructure. We will facilitate that up to the last bit, where every entity relying on it can have a git repository and a CI that builds packages and overlying them reliably on top of Debian's repos. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Report from the first Devuan conference
dear dng'ers all those of you who weren't there: you were missed! this is a first report about our first conference https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference along with links to the stream for those who have missed it in the coming days we'll publish edited (and in some cases remastered) videos of the talks, which were all of very high quality in terms of contents and worth watching. I am already looking forward to the next conference, meanwhile please spread the good vibes we all got while sharing our meatspace - but do not mistake me here, all meals were vegetarian! ciao :^) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!
On Sun, 07 Apr 2019, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: > On 4/7/19 4:53 PM, Linux O'Beardly via Dng wrote: > > We've had a number of excellent talks which have been recorded and > > can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/user/DyneOrg. > > Thanks for posting the recordings. The sound isn't always the best but > I am quite grateful that some people planned to record the event and > were able to post it so quickly. we know about the sound problems and the good news is that they are due to the streaming bandwidth available. The audio in the recordings shouldn't have these problems, will be edited and published soon. the devuan conference has been a significant production effort at Dyne, lead by our colleague and production manager Federico Bonelli, and it was totally worthed. for those who can't wait, some talks have been already indexed of the continuous recording here and they are still visible at stream quality http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=15399#p15399 the final recordings will be soon published on the devuan.org page I agree with O'Beardly this was a very succesful event, it will certainly boost Devuan's visibility and contributions. Talks are outstanding and worthed to circulate at large once ready. ciao! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..our BTS is down, bug in gpsd: ..2'nd roll over bug: gpsd "clock is 56 years wrong", like "1963-07-18T08:57:40.584Z"
dear Arnt, On Sun, 07 Apr 2019, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..reportbug reports our (Devuan) BTS is down, bug report on gpsd: I believe this is due to persisting problems to the electricity grid at the colocation of the server in Austria, which is on Dyne infrastructure and not yet migrated into Devuan. We can just move it to Devuan's infra at OVH. Katolaz is the maintainer, perhaps someone with some experience with BTS may want to step in and help too. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!
On Thu, 04 Apr 2019, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I'm homesick already. I can't be there. you will be missed Hendrik, but I believe this is just one of many to come and consider this a bootstrap and some people involved already announced the will to host a conference near their place and we'll facilitate and discuss that too so... get better for the next!! or how we say here, beterschap! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!
dear readers, Here is the final program of the upcoming Devuan conference, starting tomorrow afternoon (Friday 5 April 2019) at 16:00 CET and continuing through all the weekend. The location of the event is marked as "Dyne.org" pretty much on any online map, nominal address is Haparandadam 7-A1 located in Amsterdam's Houthavens (which is the name of the bus stop as well, served by nr.48) less than half hour away from Central Station, there is plenty of car parking (must be paid unfortunately...) and is close by to the Sparndammer tunnel exit as well to the Westerpark. Our HQ in Amsterdam is already buzzing and the weather is fine, actually forecasts are for no rain and an hopefully fair sky all weekend! for mobility, I believe this weekend will be worth renting bikes. Also wheelchair access to the venue is not a problem. The conference program is rather simple: we will have 3-4 presentations each day and space available to setup with laptops. Here below you'll find the list of presentations. All planned events will be streamed on the live channel at https://www.youtube.com/DyneOrg and recordings will be available, thanks to the wonderful media team (Fredd and Viktor). If you don't want to be filmed please take the time to notice them, thanks! If you like to share your experience on social media please use the tag #devuan Here we go with the timeline! Friday: people will be at venue all day, hacking sessions and setup. In the afternoon we will start! 16:00 - PID1: Welcome and Introductions - Collective Round Session Saturday: 10:00 - The Importance of Minimalism and Modularity - by Katolaz 11:30 - Demystifying init - by Skarnet = lunch break = 15:00 - CI Galore: the Devuan SDK and the Docker Toaster - by Jaromil & Parazyd 16:30 - Make Your Own Distro - by Fmithred Hacking sessions during this day are open. Sunday: 10:00 - Maemo Leste - by Parazyd 11:30 - Running a Devuan data center - by Nico & the Datacenterlight crew = lunch break = 15:00 - Competing with Giants: How to Sell Devuan to Your Company - by Linux O'Beardly 16:30 - Dowse: the Rod for Local Area Network Awareness - by Fredd & the Dyne.org crew one planned hacking session in the morning: "Devuan with s6 and s6-rc" with skarnet in person :^) All mentioned lunches and dinners are served and the menu is vegetarian (mostly, some meat apart) including fresh and local early-spring herbs prepared by our chef Renate of the local food-forest organisation URBANIA HOEVE and included in the price of attendance. Late arrivers will be allowed in with a reasonable contribution to the expenses, but may not fit in the food catering, but two restorants are at walking distance! Devuan branded T-Shirts and 8GB beautiful USB sticks will be available and one of each will be given to those who have already registered. We don't have a lot of tchotchke but the essential for good memories will be there :^) For any questions please write to Looking very much forward! -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What you saw on devuan.org yesterday was an April's fools joke
dear Antony On Tue, 02 Apr 2019, Antony Stone wrote: > > I also fail to see how a lawyer can possibly decide whether it's "safe to > keep > a production system on Devuan". my thanks to you and many others here for having taken the time to gracefully comment on the issue and show your solidarity in other threads. I'm afraid this Mike is yet another hooligan not deserving our attention, his arguments already don't follow a logic anymore. It is a sad reality we all have to cope: troll attacks directed at us. he is now in moderation. if the trolling comes back from other accounts please don't feed. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] What you saw on devuan.org yesterday was an April's fools joke
dear readers, as a Devuan caretaker and co-founder, in my own personal capacity, let me state that: 1. There was no break-in on any part of Devuan's infrastructure on 1st April. This was the most skillfull prank I've witnessed in my life. 2. Devuan comes WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Bluntly put, if you want to hold someone liable, you need a contract. There are many professionals here and in the world who can offer you support. Blaming any Devuan developer for problems caused by his/her actions, be it a joke or a mistake, is nonsense. Do read the license, if you need to hold anyone liable for your own needs then make sure you have a contract with somoene. It is entirely up to you to trust us or not 3. At Dyne.org - a public ICT research institution working with the European Commission and some major municipalities - we use Devuan in production. Clearly we need the reliability: so we work for it. We are not only developing Devuan, but also we have an in-house continuous-integration infrastructure to build packages and new images for Devuan's many targets. I encourage everyone reading to consider contributing to Devuan and at the same time plan your own way of making a community project reliable for your own professional use. 4. Katolaz is not just one of the caretakers of Devuan, but is by far the developer making the most significant contributions to this project. If it wasn't for him, we would be stuck at Jessie, IMHO. For our community project, he has done: - about 75 Devuan packages - all the Devuan installers since Jessie RC - all the minimal-live images since Jessie Beta2 - development on the Devuan SDK - work on the sysvinit package in Debian - maintainance of all our critical infrastructure, including all the building hosts, jenkins, dak, amprolla, pkgmaster, mirrors, BTS, file server, all the ganeti nodes, DNS, web, and what not. I wish there would be no need for a personalising argument in this email, however given the attack Katolaz received I think of it as necessary. I've been through something like this myself on this very list, leading also to vandalization of wikipedia pages about my work. Is not funny at all and some solidarity helps a lot. This mail is signed with the same 8192B RSA GPG key who signs all packages distributed by Devuan. I'm not sure if we can go deeper in trust... my former key signs this one too and was in turn signed by GPG's author. Perhaps now I'll ask Werner to reach us in Amsterdam and cuddle on the couch a bit ;^) ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> On 2019-03-14 03:48, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):
> >
> > > I just wonder whether your nice solution is enough for a wider
> > > audience used to have things popping up around all the time. I guess
> > > it's not, as much as setnet is not a solution to manage networks
> > > palatable to a wider audience, as much as apt-get is not the tool used
> > > by the large majority of users to install packages, and so on.
> > >
> > > Tinkerers will always be fine. But a distro that aims to be universal
> > > like Devuan must also cater for those who are not willing to tinker
> > > around, IMHO.
> >
> > I'm quoting the above in order to express appreciation for it -- in
> > context. Like Steve Litt, I favour the smallest possible entanglement
> > with Freedesktop.org 'desktop' components and their characteristic
> > tangled dependency trees and difficult-to-justify complications,
> > -=but=- the key fact is that Devuan Project has committed to be a
> > universal operating system, construed as including DE-style software
> > integration.
> >
> > I would not have supported that commitment, personally, but nonetheless
> > can summon the wisdom to avoid expecting this project to abandon its
> > principles just because I don't share some of them. And I thank you for
> > aptly restating those principles.
> >
> >
> When I first started using Debian, there was discussion of what
> "universal" meant. Vocal old timers insisted it referred to the
> variety of architectures that Debian would run on not different user
> preferences. I am not arguing here; just providing some context of
> the definition that has stuck in my mind (which may or may not be
> "correct").
I prefer to avoid the term "universal", whose adoption hints on a
limited and perhaps authoritarian attitude, at least referring to the
meaning of the term in philosophy. Also it makes me wonder what people
think of, when they go around making a "universal system" with a
"apt-get install anarchy" t-shirt... really?!.
IMHO Devuan should aim to be a *base system* (and Debian too!). Being
a "base" entails being minimal ("need to work" principle) and reliable
for other derivatives, not a moving target, not an opinionated
advanced system. Along this line, we are good with providing simple
formulas for desktop/embedded/vm system that provide bases for
derivatives, as well an efficient (and soon well documented) SDK for
making them.
ciao
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Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
dear Katolaz, On Tue, 12 Mar 2019, KatolaZ wrote: > We shall probably dig a deeper into this... indeed what is happening on my machine is hard to reproduce. What also complicates things is that I do aggressive isolation of different browser directories using firejail and my tool tinfoil (https://github.com/dyne/tinfoil) we would need to reproduce this clearly before making any claims. and well... > Then I uninstalled chromium because it sucks anyway. ...me too, I'm deleting all my tinfoil chromium profiles and migrating them to firefox or palemoon, depending from requirements. I used chromium for google products, thinking it may work well, but actually it has become an incredible memory hog and firefox seems to work well with apulse, also for advanced webrtc and http2 things. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
dear Didier, thanks for this quick C monitoring tool using the inotify API I think this may be useful also for /etc/machine-id - which may be a different ID from dbus I believe? meanwhile an update on my adventures using chromium on Beowulf: it basically stopped working since I overwrote my machine-id with "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" because, I believe, is not the machine-id that chromium registered for the sessions of my profile / users logged into Google. I start then understanding at least why chromium reads this file: to associate the device with the logged in profile. I believe this is really nasty especially when other applications start accessing this file and can track the ID across different programs, domains, namespaces. For instance a google account can be traced by other applications that are not from google itself. I believe this is a violation of the GDPR at least in Europe and will consult the good contacts I have among policy experts in the field. ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
dear Karl, On Fri, 08 Mar 2019, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Jaromil: > > any thoughts about this new systemd-made thing that freedesktop > > immediately "standardized" (whatever is their procedure for that, > > likely smoking cigars among old-boys or so) > > https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/machine-id.html > ... > > . It doesn't say "why". > Why should I (we) provide a means to uniquely identify my systems ? > I don't need it. Is it for > - the nice though not useful concept, yes we reinvent things you know > - the ongoing trend for more surveillance from the authorities > - the ongoing trend for more surveillance from the advertising firms > - the ongoing trend for more surveillance for "copyright" reason > > . It says "This ID uniquely identifies the host." > - on the lan I can just as well use hostname or the primary ip-number > - on the internet I use the fqdn or the ip-number > The uniqness part will fail without someone guarantying the uniqness. > Do we have an "IEEE handling out oui's" - for machine-id's ? > Even if there were some IEEE, pci- or usb-consortium handling out vendor > parts of the id's, there is no guaranty for uniqness since that > number is just what's the local admin fancies, or is it for > "tamperproof" hardware, something oppressive regimes would like. > And I have seen pci cards with the wrong vendor part: "the programmer > left and we don't have the code so we cannot change it" as the vendor > put it. > > > AFAIK chromium started checking it and its absence on Devuan Beowulf > > is reported as an error, so we may have to work around this. > > Isn't that a bug, the above man page says: > It should be considered "confidential", and must not be exposed in > untrusted environments, in particular on the network. > Why would a network centric program need this unless it wants to > expose it ? > > > but first things first: do we want /etc/machine-id? and how? > > In my view it falls in the completely unnessesary or the potentially > dangerous group. > > I don't want it. while I'm still catching up with reading all the thread, I think you make a concise and straight to the point argument with which I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks, to you and all others providing insights on this issue. I also don't want it and I think having such a machine-id is not just a technical, but also a political decision, as you pointed out. for the record, my /etc/machine-id follows: "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
re all, any thoughts about this new systemd-made thing that freedesktop immediately "standardized" (whatever is their procedure for that, likely smoking cigars among old-boys or so) https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/machine-id.html its easy to replace by a script of course that's not the problem (the manpage suggests to use a systemd application for that, not a joke!) but I'm curious if anyone has some background and thoughts about this AFAIK chromium started checking it and its absence on Devuan Beowulf is reported as an error, so we may have to work around this. but first things first: do we want /etc/machine-id? and how? ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Funding opportunity and call for projects
dear DNG'ers In the past half year at Dyne.org we've been very busy with, among other things, developing an European funding program in the H2020 EU framework that, we hope, will benefit projects coming from this and other communities and focus on socially relevant and "human centric" goals. While you are all invited to apply (call opens 1st of February!) here there is a work program which is now presented as public consultation, where we examined 5 different "verticals" of the industry and possible interventions on them. https://ledgerproject.eu/index.php/work-programme-public-consultation/ Your feedback on this document is very welcome, as applications of all kinds capable of addressing the issues raised and adopt a reliable infrastructure as the one we all love :^) Among the narratives woven there is certainly that of simplicity and minimalism for the reliability of systems. Needless to say that the Devuan GNU+Linux community has been of great inspiration and a model while designing this fund. I really hope that people here engage the challenge, there will be 16 teams receiving up to EUR 200k in 9 months of work to develop their project, equity free and with the mentorship of talented people among them some Devuan developers here :^) please spread the word to anyone interested and do not hesitate to contact me here or in private for questions and feedback. ciao! -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..alsa+apulse and torbrowser... rpath is /usr/lib/apulse and is too long???
dear Arnt, On Thu, 17 Jan 2019, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..we've heard of firefox dropping alsa etc for pulseaudio on behalf of > the Tor/torbrowser people or the systemd people and since pulseaudio > tried a "government shutdown", on _my_ iron, I did to pulseaudio what > you yanks should try on your own putinist regime, a Great Purge with > Stalinist Firmness. ;o) I understand the lust for irony and satyrical interaction, which is healthy and I can well relate to, but I kindly ask you (in personal capacity) if you can please tune down the incendiary political rethoric in your next posts, because it may drive off discussions by triggering exchanges we really do not want to see here. thanks for your understanding and continued participation to DNG! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] RFC - Linux From Scratch
On Mon, 03 Dec 2018, g4sra wrote: > Has anyone here have actual practical experience of using LFS to build > anything moderate (or larger). If so, how much work did it take and was > the effort worth it in the long run, were there any shortcomings ? I have developed dyne:bolic 1 and 2 using LFS and I highly recommend it. I go as far to believe that anyone who is intentioned in building a GNU+Linux system or even a modern UNIX OS should really go through the whole LFS documentation and tried to pack an LFS distro by hand, that is not by using the automated script, but really going through each single package. Is a great learning experience, much more than many other books on the topic. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Dng now alters (some) posts to compensate for DMARC antiforgery
dear Rick, On Thu, 06 Dec 2018, Rick Moen wrote: > As of today, the esteemed Dng listadmins have made a small tweak > to Mailman's operation, and have asked me to explain the change. > _No_ action is required on your end. many thanks for following up and taking care of this issue!! and to golinux, rrq and others for the list administration. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Participate to the first Devuan Conference in Amsterdam!
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, Linux O'Beardly wrote: >I don't want to be "that American," so I'm writing to ask: will this >conference will be done primarily in English or another language? it will be entirely in english. Also in Amsterdam you can be reassured everyone speaks and understands english. the announce contains some spelling mistakes that may suggest otherwise :^) and that's entirely my fault to rush it out. ciao! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [FYI] Docker upgrade fails to restart daemon
dear devs, while maintaining and using at work the repos based on Olaf's good work here https://hub.docker.com/u/dyne/ I can report that while using docker-ce 5:18.09.0~3-0~debian-buster on my Devuan Beowulf installation no problem is seen, can just /etc/init.d/docker start I hope this is useful info, not sure I'm missing the point here. In any case thanks for opening the issue Olaf, I've subscribed to it. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgrade from Devuan Jessie to ASCII fails with SIGILL on AMD K6
dear Mark, On Fri, 28 Sep 2018, Mark Hindley wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 01:48:01PM +0100, Mark Hindley wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I have been migrating a venerable headless sytem from Debian Wheezy to > > Devuan. > > > > The migration from Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie was fine, however > > upgrading to > > Ascii has failed with Illegal Instruction faults. > > It seems I missed this announcement: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2016/05/msg1.html > > Is there any chance Devuan might revert this? It would be good and I'd be really in favor of reverting this choice. When the thread was out more than one people in Devuan were really opposed and there was some discussion on DNG about it I believe. Yet the chance lies with our growth, since this would mean a major step which we haven't engaged yet, that of being able to recompile *all* Debian packages (not just Devuan overlays) for a different arch. ATM there are two factors holding us back from such a move: 1. we aren't that big (yet?), we don't have the support that Debian has from industrial and academic partners in terms of reliable computation resources, nor Debian is keen to share them. 2. looking at the overlay situation in beowulf, we may have even less packages to curate in the coming stable releases, orienting us to stay with a "somehow softer" overlay approach without the need to setup big operations. I wish we'd have the ambition to step up and think that 1. should not be addressed as a Debian / Devuan debacle, but brought up as an issue to SPI (software for public interest) claiming they are violating their mandate by serving only the interest of Debian when its financial and technical infrastructure is not also deployed real public interests, but only the interest of the lobby that has taken over Debian. I think we need someone like Bruce Perens or other talented lawyers to look into this and say if its possible. Until then, I'm afraid we cannot steer the binary target policy of Debian, no matter how destructive that is for its ecosystem. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII Live USB security issue
dear Andrew, On Thu, 27 Sep 2018, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > I've been using a live USB of Devuan with XFCE, I boot it to RAM and > then setup my temporary environment from a different LUKS encrypted USB. have you tried https://heads.dyne.org? is a Devuan derivative based on Beowulf (current testing) hardened for security, routing all traffic through tor and removing all non-free firmware (100% free). Maybe it works for your case, maybe not (the persistent setup aka "nesting" is not yet there) but since you seem to have all the persistance scripts by yourself, this live USB may do well for your purpose. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: Code of Conduct: Let's revamp it.
dear Rick, On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Rick Moen wrote: > The worst that can be reasonably said of the USA in this regard is that > we give our loons like MikeeUSA[1] the freedom to post deranged offtopic > rants (in places where admins so permit). But he doesn't speak for us. well said. about the moderation, we are slowly catching up (also thanks to your good advices), rest assured we are all dedicated to keep a reasonable balance between freedom of speech and respectful contributions here on DNG - and we do that even without a CoC, I'm happy to say, thanks golinux for having saved us from that :^) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] new systemd-free distro makes a splash featured in the windows store
re all, not sure anyone here has spotted this, mostly a news item for now (haven't tried) and a derivative of Debian that claims to be systemd-free (well, rather easy since it is mostly shell based) https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/09/22/0150209/new-custom-linux-distro-is-systemd-free-debian-based-and-optimized-for-windows-10 licensing-wise has a rather dodgy change to MIT, here the text on /. Nearly every Linux distro is already available in the Microsoft Store, allowing developers to use Linux scripting and other tools running on the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL). Now another distro has popped up in the Store, and unlike the others it claims to be specifically optimised for WSL, meaning a smaller and more appropriate package with sane defaults which helps developers get up and running faster. WLinux is based on Debian, and the developer, Whitewater Foundry, claims their custom distro will also allow faster patching of security and compatibility issues that appear from time to time between upstream distros and WSL... Popular development tools, including git and python3, are pre-installed. Additional packages can be easily installed via the apt package management system... A handful of unnecessary packages, such as systemd, have been removed to improve stability and security. The distro also offers out of the box support for GUI apps with your choice of X client, according to the original submission. WLinux is open source under the MIT license, and is available for free on GitHub. It can also be downloaded from Microsoft Store at a 50% discount, with the development company promising the revenue will be invested back into new features. I was looking at the linux subsystem some times ago, smart late move from M$ in fact. Have tested the switch from Debian to Devuan ASCII and it just works (and yes, works better without systemd). ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mailman replacement
dear Katolaz On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 10:24:42AM +0200, Stephane Ascoet wrote: > > Hi, I warmly suggest Sympa. It's the very far best free mailing lists > > manager. > > we have no reason at all to replace mailman, which is working > absolutely fine :) I'm not sure this thread refers to our problem, but we do have a problem :^) It is not with Mailman really, but with Lurker the web archiver we use at Dyne: Since a while now mails do not appear on the web. We should fix the archives and perhaps for the occasion move Devuan's lists on its own server. Dyne.org can still serve as an SMTP if needed. Meanwhile Mailman has been entirely rewritten into its v3 that offers also a REST API very useful to customise its interface and perhaps simplify it for some administration tasks. I wonder who has experience with that and what is the status ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Repent! [Re: No spaces between menus in XFCE terminal.]
On Sun, 02 Sep 2018, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > It is about freedom of choice. Everyone is free to use a broken theme or > one that renders properly. ;) appreciate your attention to details :^) ...but let meee sayy.. I have finally upgraded to a fullHD monitor and Alfredo's WindowMaker and GNUStep look gorgeous with those 64x64 moving icons in the dock. I recommend anyone with a large fancy monitor to try out the good'ol afterstep approach. I think we should totally go for the sidebar bling :^D ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Reply-To in this list
dear Jochen, On Sat, 01 Sep 2018, J. Fahrner wrote: > my spam blocking rules don't allow a reply-to address to freemail > addresses. Today I received a message from this list with a > gmail.com replyto address (which was rejected). I'm wondering why > this list allows replyto addresses which contain other addresses > than this list. That makes no sense to me. Replies to list messages > should always go to the list. I second your concern. tl;dr - help! long-ish story: We are currently running Mailmain 2 for this and other lists.dyne.org and there are somehow long standing problems calling for maintainance, one of them being the infamous lurker web-archiver bug which makes most emails disappear from the web. Said that, knowing an intervention to fix all this will be soon planned, I wonder if you or anyone else on this list has enough experience with Mailman to indicate if we can change its setup to somehow fix this behavior you mention. Also appreciated if anyone has enough knowledge of Mailman 3, which seems to me has done quite some progress. If we should upgrade to that alltogether by making this effort and if yes then what settings are to be preferred to avoid the situation you mention and other situations - if it is possible at all. I am aware this may be mostly a client setting issue, however we are committed to facilitate as much as possible netiquette-aligned behaviors here - yet I second Anthony on this, without fiddling too much with headers server-side. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan 1.0 Installation Problem
dear Greg, On Mon, 27 Aug 2018, fsmithred wrote: > On 08/25/2018 06:07 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > I suspect the best solution here is to release a new Devuan 8.1 > > "Jessie", we discussed it sometimes in the past evaluating the impact > > of the keyring update. > > I'm ready for a point release. I made a > devuan_jessie_1.1_amd64_desktop-live.iso yesterday, and it seems to work > correctly, using deb.devuan.org. Still have to make one for i386, but I > expect no problems with that. > > Tell me when. this is very good news. I must admit for now I'm just airing opinions, meanwhile CenturionDan is back and, as you know, the ISO installers have been managed by Katolaz in ASCII and me and Dan in Jessie. This move now needs some healthy cooperation and I believe we may achieve it during September and before the Devuan Conference (d1conf). Also Parazyd (who doesn't reads this list) is back from vacations with time to spend on Devuan's ARM builds since two days. So the best place is the devuan-dev list to coordinate on details. So this boils down to the coordination of you (live), parazyd (embedded & virtual), katolaz (iso, minimal live) and dan (iso) to produce a new Jessie release. I'm sincerely happy to be out of the release signing since ASCII, as a concrete proof this project has really grown up. I'll certainly be around to kick some machines in case they hiccup, plus join next wednesday 5 September at 22:30 CEST if we like to have a developer's meeting on vdc. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan 1.0 Installation Problem
On Fri, 24 Aug 2018, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-08-24 20:51, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > > Errors documented by the console log from the other attempts have the > > same error message: > > > > Aug 24 01:54:57 choose-mirror[31759]: DEBUG: command: wget -q > > http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/stable/Release -O - | grep -E > > '^(Suite|Codename|Architectures):' > > Aug 24 01:54:58 choose-mirror[31759]: WARNING _: broken mirror: invalid > > Suite or Codename in Release file for stable > > > > The command does work for me: > > > > wget -q http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/stable/Release -O - | > > grep -E '^(Suite|Codename|Architectures):' > > Suite: testing > > Codename: ascii > > Architectures: alpha amd64 arm64 armel armhf hppa i386 ia64 mips mipsel > > powerpc ppc64el s390x sparc > > > > > > Why is Jessie stable/Release labeled a "testing" suite? > > > Alessandro > > > > When identifying releases in Devuan ALWAYS use the - jessie, > ascii or ceres - NOT stable, testing or sid because our release cycle is not > always in sync with Debian so is unreliable. I cannot answer to why testing > was not changed when ASCII stable was released. > > Could you please run that again using: > > http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/Release still same result: wget -q http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/Release -O - | grep -E '^(Suite|Codename|Architectures):' Suite: testing Codename: ascii Architectures: alpha amd64 arm64 armel armhf hppa i386 ia64 mips mipsel powerpc ppc64el s390x sparc I think we nailed it, lets wait for Katolaz to assess a solution, as he is running the mirror operations and has a clear picture of the situation. *.mirror.devuan.org still points to packages.devuan.org - the old repository - because the old installer has an old keyring... I suspect the best solution here is to release a new Devuan 8.1 "Jessie", we discussed it sometimes in the past evaluating the impact of the keyring update. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan 1.0 Installation Problem
dear Arnt, On Fri, 24 Aug 2018, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..why Devuan 1.0 when you can have Devuan ASCII 2.0.0 stable release? > https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 > which _may_ solve your problem. I doubt we can say "just use ASCII" as an answer to this problem, since we have declared Jessie an "LTS" release, we should have this sorted and stick to our menu. True is that ASCII just works very well, but then we cannot just leave people who want to use Jessie behind. I hope we can figure out, I haven't yet looked at the screenshots sent by Gaston ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian blocks latest Intel microcode update
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 09:31:01AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > My wish is that strong industrial players like ARM understand how > > valuable could be to ally with us and a few others in the open source > > world. > > > > I agree with most of the arguments, but the last: unfortunately, not > even ARM is a "good player", as also indicated by the recent debacle > of pseudo-facts and plain lies against RISC-V from ARM Holdings. It's > true that there is more than one producer providing ARM > implementations, but they have to pay millions in royalties to ARM > Holdings, which effectively decides the specs. well, yes, you make a very good point. I wonder what is the status of shipments for this board: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unleashed and if there are any others we could use for studying and perhaps make an experimental builder for Devuan. 1000$ for an experimental board is still a bit much for the Devuan's pockets, but I may convince the DECODE consortium to invest part of our equipment budget to have one. Then an important part of this decision would be to know when it ships. If we'd have to wait more than a year for it then the research project would be nearly over. overall good call, all considered I agree with you on the long-term strategic vision, nevertheless would be good to have some sort of support and/or recognition from players in the ARM space too. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian blocks latest Intel microcode update
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Antony Stone - 23.08.18, 00:04: > > On Wednesday 22 August 2018 at 23:32:28, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > > Don Wright - 22.08.18, 21:56: > > > > El Reg has [1]published a disagreement between a Debian maintainer > > > > and Intel over changes to license terms in the latest CPU > > > > microcode updates. The added terms (see comments) appear to > > > > attach liability to both Debian and mirror sites if the end user > > > > violates certain new restrictions regarding benchmarking. Debian > > > > has chosen not to play. > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/21/intel_cpu_patch_licence/ > > > > > > Rant opened: > > > > > > /me prays for the end of proprietary CPUs. > > > > > > > > > Speed over quality. – Stop it already. > > > > > > Rant closed. > > > > Personally, I agree with you, but just me and you as individual > > persons isn't going to make any difference. > > If people thought this throughout all of human history, we would not > have computers at all. And also still think the Earth is flat and in a > center of the world / universe. Me and many other Devuan developers agree with the good reasoning. I also share Martin's optimism on what we can do. To start with, our Devuan project has always prioritised ARM support, something visible from the many specific hardware targets we already cover, one of the biggest innovations we brought to Debian, often overlooked by journalists reviewing our distro. CenturionDan has also plans to setup a PPC build farm soon. At Dyne we have done many projects involving ARM board deployements and we have more planned in the future, also acting as mentors for European startups. In these endeavours we recommend use of open hardware (boards that have no closed-source firmware blobs) which restricts the choice to a few ARM boards. This brings us close to antagonize the Intel lobby that pollutes the European Commission. Sadly enough, those who race against this giant have not united in solidarity, nor we have constituted our own lobby. To conclude, I believe the pressure cannot be built by consumers, as someone also mentions in the thread, but by industrial players in the field of innovation and by policy analysts and lobbyists at a more political layer. My wish is that strong industrial players like ARM understand how valuable could be to ally with us and a few others in the open source world. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] su root missing sbin on beowulf
On Wed, 22 Aug 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 04:24:38PM +1000, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote: > > I installed ascii onto a new machine with ascii-netinstall iso and > > immediately upgraded to beowulf. The machine is a headless VM and > > has no GUI installed. I notice when I login to root with “su” the > > $PATH doesn’t contain any sbin folders, only bin. If I login to > > root with “su -“ then the $PATH is as expected. I don’t notice > > this happening on any ascii installs. Is there something new in > > beowulf/buster default configuration? > > I upgraded to Beowulf several months ago and didn't notice any issue > with su. You might want to check whether you have changed ENV_SUPATH > in /etc/login.defs by any chance, or if you have a custom .bashrc in > /root which resets PATH? slightly OT, but this and other threads questioning strange situations occurring post-install make me think of a new "project" for Devuan: that of having an automated set of tests running on a docker (or packer) instance that does an automatic dist-upgrade and runs a list of checks we may draft for them. this would help us having a more deterministic answer to these situations, somehow similar also to the wine32 problem on another thread. the only way for us to really isolate a bug is to run the procedure on a pristine system and, while I also upgraded to Beowulf without problems, I cannot vouch for my system to be definable as "pristine"... ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on Panasonic FZ-G1
dear Bruce, thanks for hinting about alsactl, I suspect checking the dependencies of this package may make the life easier to a number of people installing Devuan without using the desktop task. On Tue, 21 Aug 2018, Bruce Perens wrote: >And the solution is: run alsactl init. >Does any package install script try to run it? it is called by the sysvinit script of the 'alsa-utils' package Package: alsa-utils Version: 1.1.6-1 Priority: optional Section: sound Maintainer: Debian ALSA Maintainers Installed-Size: 2,170 kB Provides: audio-mixer Depends: kmod (>= 17-1~), lsb-base (>= 3.0-9), whiptail | dialog, libasound2 (>= 1.1.1), libc6 (>= 2.27), libfftw3-single3 (>= 3.3.5), libncursesw6 (>= 6), libsamplerate0 (>= 0.1.7), libtinfo6 (>= 6) Homepage: https://www.alsa-project.org/ Tag: admin::configuring, admin::hardware, admin::kernel, devel::lang:c, devel::library, implemented-in::c, interface::text-mode, role::devel-lib, role::program, uitoolkit::ncurses, use::configuring, works-with::audio Download-Size: 1,052 kB APT-Manual-Installed: no APT-Sources: http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages Description: Utilities for configuring and using ALSA among the reverse dependencies, I see as relevant: task-desktop,alsa-utils libasound2-data,alsa-utils which should bring it in, somehow. I think it is a good idea to elevate the priority of alsa-utils from 'optional' to something more apt for its role. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] Cannot install wine32 on ASCII.
dear Ed, On Sat, 18 Aug 2018, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Jaromil wrote: > - > > 1. dpkg --print-architechture > > 2. dpkg --print-foreign-architectures > > 3. list of enabled repositories (+ architechture) > > 4. dpkg -l | grep wine > I provided that information already. I do not understand what the > "(+architecture)" mean regarding repositories as I never enabled any > arhitecture that is not supported by my hardware. Then I must have skipped it, yet I haven't found in the thread a list of enabled repositories you have setup on your system. However the best way possible to troubleshoot this is to test win32 on a vanilla install. Evilham mentioned it works on his installation, I can confirm wine32 worked on Jessie. Right now I'm on Beowulf and no further room to test. I hope it sorts out somehow, ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] Cannot install wine32 on ASCII.
On Fri, 17 Aug 2018, Evilham wrote: > > Snippet from a previous email after fixing command typos, can you post > all this? > > 1. dpkg --print-architechture > 2. dpkg --print-foreign-architectures > 3. list of enabled repositories (+ architechture) > 4. dpkg -l | grep wine I'm sorry to see that Ed moved on to RANT instead of providing basic information to those of use who were patiently trying to help on a voluntary basis. Without this information and in particular point 3. noone can help really. Also the act of helping could be made more pleasant in this thread. My 2c on the topic boil down to this recommendation, to test if wine32 works on Devuan ASCII: quickly spin up a VirtualBox VM or a Docker (we do have new docker images easy to use based on Olaf's good base!) $ docker pull dyne/devuan:ascii and try to install wine32 there. If it works then there is something weird in the host setup. When a problem like this escalates to a blame to our distro or even to Debian packaging, all tests should have be done on a vanilla ASCII system first, not on your desktop. At last please note this is not a "development" list nor a bugreport or ticketing system, but a community discussion list. thanks all for your patience! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] We can't stop wars and diseases yet, but we got rid of systemd
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018, Steve Litt wrote: > > > 1) At $14.50/month (Swiss Franc == $), it's 3 times the price of > > > many American VM vendors. > > > > > > 2) Unlike American vendors, their Terms of Service contain no > > >Indemnification clause, no heads-I-win-tails-you-lose, no book > > >length essays. This fact alone can triple the value of a VM. > > > > 3) I would rather have my not so sensitive data stored at a Swiss > > company than at an American one. > > Is there a way to rent and administer one of their VMs anonymously? I am sure you can ask them, it can be an interesting feature request and they may simply make it available as an option (Tor/I2P access) Thanks Lars for spotting Devuanhosting by Ungleich here! I confirm these people are in touch with Devuan developers and willing to help. Their success is also our success so I encourage everyone to consider them as a hosting solution. We are preparing for a Devuan conference in Amsterdam in November (soon to be announced) and that will also be an occasion to meet the people running this hosting in person. Here a great blogpost by Nico who is leading their team and may be also reading here on DNG https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/ ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
On Wed, 01 Aug 2018, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > I understand that. I didn't say not to discuss the Slackware > situation. It's just that Devuan communications, except for the > forum, have gone to less than a trickle. Would be nice to have some > energy going into Beowulf etc. Yes, I know many are on holiday in > August but not that much has happened since the stable release. > Hoping things might pickup a bit. I believe a community dynamic is healthy when solidarity replaces competition: in our case Slackware and Gentoo are not competitors, but venerable projects that can share valuable experience and also upstream tools with Devuan, while they have a larger user base and common goals and ethics. If any of such projects raises an emergency flag, we are called to exercise solidarity even beyond the understandable latency of vacation periods. That's what I felt like doing, while reading online sporadically once per week. About beowulf the first step to help is start running it, only this way we can find problems. Or in your case start thinking of a design approach for it :^) I think you are running ahead with that already. I run Beowulf since the ASCII stable release, other devs as well. The only problem I have is with the ZFS modules compiled with DKMS, haven't had time to investigate that, but suspect people more expert than me on ZFS internals may have already proposed solutions on the devuan-dev list. All the above considered, I think you are right to call all of us to stick to our mission and nurture our project. Sometimes I wonder how solidarity is perceived by big-fish eat-it-all distros like Debian or Ubuntu: what if they would take a less solipsistic approach, recognise young efforts like Devuan as a distro that saved a good portion of their user base and nurture it by means of infrastructure and donations? The world of FOSS would be a better place. Rather than complain about their competing behavior, I believe we are called to show how to improve our communities. Our solidarity to Slackware is a call to everyone, to care about each other and to be excellent to each other. ciao! -- Denis Roio a.k.a. Jaromil http://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ⚷ crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره GnuPG: 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
On Wed, 01 Aug 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 04:36:57PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > > Pretty funny. He just can't step away from hacking the > > distribution long enough to do anything else, but I guess be with > > his family. I don't see how he's going to resolve his own issues > > this way. > > > > It's plain incredible, not just funny, and also encouraging, in a > weird way. That's probably why nobody can stop free software by any > means: it woud be like trying to extinguish a volcano with a jug of > water... Romanticism aside, I believe Bruce has a point here: no doubts the creativity of a few geniuses can motivate people to develop and maintain projects of large proportions, Slackware being one of the biggest I can think of. The technical development activity alone is not sufficient for a project to thrive: more different people need to be involved and sustainability envisioned within the boundaries and resources that the project offers. I am in favor of facilitating the strong passion of people who like to "just do it", being one myself, minimising the distractions, but still the project's success depends from certain conditions to take place, mainly I can think of briefly: healthy delegation model based on skills rather than authority; horizontal governance that opens the agency to different expertise; an healthy community and clear communication channels; etc. This is a rather big topic for me, having devoted to it most of my late academic research and ultimately being the mission the Dyne.org foundation pursues in facilitating unique software projects to thrive without being killed by profit-driven agendas, but community and quality driven processes. ciao -- Denis Roio a.k.a. Jaromil http://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ⚷ crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره GnuPG: 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware
dear fellow dng'ers let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by Patrick Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution we all owe much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty and minimalism https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751 it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware. He has now published this account of his https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my attention. in solidarity, ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A devuan manual, why not?
dear Basati, On Tue, 17 Jul 2018, Basati wrote: > I am very critical and have always been critical about how a manual > should be made. I think it is necessary that it be oriented to three > readers. Newbies, users, advanced users. No "users" pls, I n I are all participants :^) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] live-sdk or live-build repos to use?
dear Ozi, On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Ozi Traveller wrote: >I just want to clarify which are the best repos to use to build >an live and or installable image from? Since the beginning of Devuan we are working on a "Simple Distro Kit" which is first and foremost used to produce consistently all the targets covered by Devuan (live, arm and vm). This SDK may be seen as one of the biggest innovations brought by Devuan: it has been rewritten already three times and is maintained here https://git.devuan.org/sdk Devuan's SDK is already adopted by fsmithred, parazyd (who is its lead developer as of now) and en route for integration with the work that Katolaz is doing on the minimal live. It supports a system of 'blends' that can be then built on any existing Devuan target. We are on track for releasing a "Devuan's developer manual" including extensive information on how to operate this SDK, meanwhile the READMEs and live interaction over IRC are the best way to dig this tool. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] strategy for missing sysvinit scripts - the tuned case
dear dng'ers today I gave a spin to 'tuned' prompted by this article https://www.tecmint.com/tuned-automatic-performance-tuning-of-centos-rhel-servers/ and I quickly realised our package (from Debian) doesn't have any sysvinit script, but only a systemd unit in /lib/systemd/system/tuned.service containing: [Unit] Description=Dynamic System Tuning Daemon After=systemd-sysctl.service network.target dbus.service Requires=dbus.service polkit.service Conflicts=cpupower.service Documentation=man:tuned(8) man:tuned.conf(5) man:tuned-adm(8) [Service] Type=dbus PIDFile=/run/tuned/tuned.pid BusName=com.redhat.tuned ExecStart=/usr/sbin/tuned -l -P [Install] WantedBy=multi-user.target So I start thinking of what strategy we can adopt in order to overcome this limitation. Being a relatively simple CRUD / declarative configuration it may be easy to generate scripts from the information contained in systemd service configurations, or even wrap them runtime with a smaller program executing their commands and called by sysvinit/openrc. Another strategy which IMHO may not be sustainable on the long term is to fork all packages to have such a sysvinit service script in them. I tend to disagree with this approach. After so many years, what are your opinions? Is there a viable and smart way to work around this situation, just like we did with amprolla thanks to Nextime's brilliant intuition? ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] When 128?
dear Adam, On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, Adam Borowski wrote: > x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes. > This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the > rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all > the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline. Wholeheartedly agreeing with you here. Sorry if I interrupd (nice thread!) but couldn't resist to nod louder. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
dear Katolaz On Thu, 21 Jun 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 11:58:56PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: > > I think you missed the point. > > > > All I’m suggesting is that on the download page there are the > > AMD64 images first, then a note giving very basic suggestions not > > to use i[3-6]86 images unless you need to AND PROVIDE LINKS TO > > SOME GOOD WRITEUPS. It’s not trying to force people to do anything > > - just give them a pointer to information that (apparently) quite > > a few people aren’t aware of. > > I think you probably missed the point here. believe it or not, there > are genuinely thousands of people who use i686 images because they > happen to have i686 machines. The percentage of those in Devuan is not > that different from the percentage seen in Debian. > > I can't see any good reason not to use an i686 image if you have an > i686 CPU... from what I understand Simon is saying here, he is not being understood really. What he is suggesting is to add a small documentation text that, in case one doesn't knows what to choose, mentions what is the most common choice in case of most common setups (today is clearly i686) and when/why to choose otherwise, also linking to simple explanations that may help orienting people to choose their installation medium according to their target hardware. I believe this can be a useful addition and wish someone preferably native in english language can contribute it. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats
On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, Simon Hobson wrote: > And as it happens, I had literally just been looking on Distrowatch > where Devuan is up to rank 11 (with 582 hits/day) over the last 7 > days vs Debian at rank 6 with 1002 hpd. OK, it’s “just for fun” and > not really a measure of installed systems, but it shows that there’s > been steady progress up the charts. yay. Today also distrowatch has published a pretty realistic review of our desktop. something to learn there. on the user contributed reviews also I read someone obtained Devuan 2.0.0 from a newspaper already! does anyone has any info about which magazine has published it?! that's pretty fast... ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan from scratch?
re all, today I've noticed this interesting experiment from the news of Distrowatch: https://github.com/scottwilliambeasley/debian-from-scratch/blob/master/README.md it's interesting because it provides an alternative "new" way to bootstrap a new apt based system in addition to the classical debootstrap method. I also noticed the instructions have no mention of systemd, wonder where that will sneak in later... however I believe this approach works flawlessly on Devuan too. what would be useful for? besides learning how the system is made.. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A message from Patrick J. Volkerding
On Tue, 12 Jun 2018, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > Devuan or Trinity can borrow anything they find useful from the current > tree. Well, we all have learned SO MUCH from Patrick's good work all our life: I think we can already consider Devuan borrows from Slackware. FTR: after early experiments on yggdrasyl and sunsite ftp mirror, slackware has been the first gnu/linux distro I've ever used as my main computing platform, besides having NetBSD on a laptop. I believe this is also the case for Katolaz and Nextime. Slackware is a lighthouse in the mist. It is our J.R. "Bob" Dobbs inspiring us to edify the Church of Subgenius.. so... Get Slack! ciao :^D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] German magazine reports about Devuan Ascii
On Tue, 12 Jun 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 11:26:37AM +0200, J. Fahrner wrote: > > https://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/25978/devuan-20-ascii-ver%C3%B6ffentlicht.html > > Also The Register has picked the news up: > > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/12/devuan_ascii_stable_ships/ > > and the comments are generally very positive and supportive. Yes! compared to 2 years ago, that's the case. Even LWN had a decent thread this time, or hackernews FWIW. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274623 I am a /. aficionado as many here and still like it the most :^) However there is something also on Tech Republic (beware, this site is ads and cookies intensive and videos start playing!) https://www.techrepublic.com/article/devuan-2-0-is-a-debian-fork-for-linux-users-who-want-to-avoid-systemd/ following up this article already our at the time of the ASCII Beta https://www.techrepublic.com/article/3-reasons-why-you-should-give-debian-a-try/ There is also an increasing twitter traffic from Japan, following up this first article on OSDN https://mag.osdn.jp/18/06/12/173000 The release went out to devuan-announce on monday (office hours..) so this time community based fora knew already during a weekend about the release and this gave the possibility to have community reactions ready for journalists to pick up, i.e. the Register has quoted the endorsement of Bruce Perens. I think overall this was a good communication strategy! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 2.0.0 stable
ahoy! On Sat, 09 Jun 2018, Irrwahn wrote: > Veteran Unix Admins wrote on 09.06.2018 07:05: > > Dear Init Freedom Lovers > > > > Once again the Veteran Unix Admins salute you! > > > > We are happy to announce that Devuan GNU+Linux 2.0 ASCII Stable is > > finally available.[...] > > Omedetō gozaimasu, Devuan ASCII! to the list of thanks Daniel mentions, I'd like to add you as well Irrwahn for all the patient help you offered to this release and together with your also Andreas Messner. Yours is the merit of Devuan's desktop being less and less entangled by DMs/policykit mess. this weekend the news of our release made a splash on community fora, namely hackernews https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274623 where our effort was always heavily denigrated and mocked, now starts emerging some reasonable feedback. And last not least slashdot where Bruce Perens declared his endorsement for Devuan 8^D https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/06/10/0321233/systemd-free-devuan-20-ascii-officially-released I recommend those who like can participate to the discussions with maturity and respect for other people ideas, as much as we claim respect for our own ideas, which we have shown being able to follow with clear action. Since the release was made just at the beginning of a weekend, tomorrow a press release will be circulated on the devuan-announce list, hoping it will be easier for journalists to pick it up on office hours. > Gochisōsama deshita! ;^P -- Sapere aude! -- Denis Roio a.k.a. Jaromil http://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities Book keynotes, lectures, workshops: https://jaromil.dyne.org ⚷ crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره GnuPG: 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New policykit-1 packages in ASCII
ahoy, On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > The package is now in pkgmaster. many thanks and congratulations :^) the devil is in the details as usual. See you at the dev meeting tonight 22:30 CEST! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ubuntu w/out systemd?
On Tue, 10 Apr 2018, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > jaromil . . . I'm pretty sure that Timothy Pearson is the one doing > TDE. oh, ok, thanks. didn't knew. cheers to Timothy! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ubuntu w/out systemd?
hey Jimmy, On Mon, 09 Apr 2018, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > Hey Guys, first my thanks to Timothy who had the foresight to start > this project and stay with it. Timothy Pearson you rock! ehrm, who is Timothy? I am not sure what project are you talking about. this is Devuan. we can surely use a hand but never saw Timothy > I'm looking for a distro that features TDE-Trinity do you know about this? https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Devuan_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Instructions however this is the wrong place to ask about Ubuntu. In the eyes of many that is a distro that managed to bloat Debian even more than it is bloated already. we are a bit like at the opposite end of the spectrum if you like. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Does devuan install from USB really need a CDROM?
hi Mubarak, On Mon, 26 Mar 2018, muba...@openmailbox.org wrote: > Hello Erik & Alessandro > > I faced similar problem but not in the system installation. > > 4-6 months ago I installed Devuan 1.0 DVD i386 and amd64 .iso. And > after the installation complete i find out that network-manager, > modemmanager are not installed by default(they are included in the > DVD but the debian-installer did not install them). thanks for this post outlining a possible solution. today a friend contacted me after installing ASCII on a HP Gen 9 server (UEFI) reporting the same issue: no CDROM found. I wonder if we can nail the error to a reproducible state? haven't incurred into it so far. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare
hi Chillfan, On Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Chillfan wrote: > I agree that a fork is needed, but I think this would be a whole lot of work. yes. forks are a LOT of work. Even Devuan, which I'd say is a relatively easy fork, mostly needing work on the infrastructure and testing and documentation side, was more demanding than expected. > If palemoon offered something akin to extended support releases it > would be a great candidate for that, palemoon is stuck at "version 27" series of Firefox and in any case its in the 2x series I doubt it can be brought up to 50 since the codebase is rather different. said that, I'm happy with palemoon, using always the latest stable release tagged on the git tree, compiling it myself on Devuan and then github.com/dyne/tinfoil for sandboxing. here the mozconfig I use, please note I do not disable pulseaudio or dbus, because that gives problems, yet I do not use pulseaudio (but I do use dbus...) export MOZILLA_OFFICIAL=1 mk_add_options AUTOCLOBBER=1 mk_add_options MOZ_CO_PROJECT=browser ac_add_options --enable-application=browser mk_add_options MOZ_OBJDIR=`pwd`/pmbuild ac_add_options --enable-jemalloc ac_add_options --enable-jemalloc-lib # ac_add_options --disable-dbus ac_add_options --disable-gstreamer ac_add_options --enable-alsa ac_add_options --disable-oss ac_add_options --enable-pulseaudio ac_add_options --disable-necko-wifi ac_add_options --enable-official-branding ac_add_options --disable-installer ac_add_options --disable-updater ac_add_options --disable-tests ac_add_options --disable-debug ac_add_options --disable-mochitest ac_add_options --with-pthreads ac_add_options --enable-strip ac_add_options --enable-optimize="-O2 -march=native -pipe" ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Used *and* free hardware (was: Re: The FSF seems to have finally sold out)
thanks Martin for sharing your experience! your liberating "rant" comes with some useful insights and a good call I also share FWIW, what we do at Dyne (thanks to Parazyd who is leading this activity) is use x220 and x230 refurbished models we buy from another non-profit foundation in the Netherlands, the price is below 200EUR each. We then flash them with coreboot ourselves with a bus-pirate device we bought from Poland. So let's say also shipping is more sustainable :^) after that, we experiment a bit, also thanks to the BIOS whitelisting removal after corebooting. Parazyd has the FHD MOD by Nitrocaster which he used to convert his laptop to a gorgeous full HD screen, something I'm going to try myself. I am very upset about broadcoom or intel wifi cards so my first move is to slap an Atheros in there. Not counting the time invested for these mods (which sincerely is FUN time for us) the overall cost of such devices is below 400EUR and we fulfill also one core mission of Dyne.org foundation: to respect the environment and recycle whenever possible rather than consume new HW. Plus we end up having a lot of spare parts for friends who do the same and for ourselves when something breaks. I think we'll keep this way, hoping folks at Lenovo don't keep ruining the x2 models as they are doing from the x230 onwards > Another option would be to look in ARM space, or try to free up a used Google > Pixel notebook that already has Coreboot. yes. and we have Devuan images ready to run on many chromebooks already... only problem is the hardware is not ideal on those: no way to change SSDs, RAM etc. not enough modularity, what makes great the thinkpad x2 series > So regarding Puri.sm, Fairphone and others… I vote for the benefit > of doubt. Do they provide perfectly free and fair solutions yet? No > way. Will they succeed doing so? Certainly not if people do not buy > their stuff. I agree with this. I know personally people at Fairphone here in Amsterdam and they are sincerely good willing and passionate about their mission. They are definitely doing their best, which is not enough, but is something. I'm also aware of less mainstream initiatives that have achieved even more, with less. All these initiatives can be improved and I believe would benefit much more from less competition and a more cooperative approach. But inevitably when they are lead by marketing-minded people, this doesn't happens. > A Devuan for hardware… just for hardware the necessary investment is > that much higher. It is challenging and it has a high risk > associated with it. So kudos for any players in the market that have > the courage to tackle the challenge to facilitate change. Even when > it is in small steps. Totally agree. I hope many more people to many more small steps. like the EOMA68 for instance, which ships with Devuan pre-installed, perhaps worth mentioning here, and has a very modular open-hw approach https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop as for the "petition" for better hardware, I hope the FSF invests much more energy into https://h-node.org which is an initiative with enormous potential if campaigned succesfully into the consumer market, to make people aware of what can be supported by GNU/Linux and customised and efficiently recycled and what not. So far it seems stalled and pretty much a niche initiative to me. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The FSF seems to have finally sold out
dear Alessandro, On Thu, 08 Mar 2018, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 08/03/2018 at 13:28, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On 08/03/18 10:05, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > >> In exchange for money they are now advertising and endorsing a maker of > >> fake libre hardware by letting them have a booth at libreplanet an > >> endorsing their debian copy "PureOS" > >> > >> https://libreplanet.org/2018/sponsors > > > > Really? I am pretty positive about Purism right now, I'm not sure the > > criticisms are valid. > > In fact it's just another take of Taiidan against Purism, it's his job. many thanks for completing the information on this thread and bringing some more facts to light. I had somehow an observer role in the process of Purism going through through the libre-linux process and being approved by the FSF and must admit I have never been a fan of it because of three main reasons: 1- From a philosopher standing point, their name is horrible. "Purity" is a horrible, terrible abstraction. 2- They made their way in as aggressively as Taiidan now is attacking them. 3- They produce new hardware instead of recycling existing one, something I do not like for many enviromental reasons. But considering all the above is pretty much subjective to my opinion, if a peer review process is in place involing many GNUs I will trust it and set apart my "beliefs". The fact that Purism passed the review perhaps says something about the "religious" nature of FSF :^) but I can tell from backlogs it wasn't short of attention to details and criticism they have faced. I recommend Taiidan does his/her best different endeavours and also applies to the libre-linux review to be featured by the FSF, as well applies to the H-Node registry of hardware perhaps in some way. I also recommend the FSF sometimes soon improves its own team by including more interdisciplinarity, since there are many issues at stake connected with technology and in this particular case an anthropologist or ethnographer approach would have been that of mapping the field and documenting it before endorsing the bozo who insists louder for visibility. ciao p.s. does Purism laptops come with systemd? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please, provide a means to remove the default wallpapers.
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > Well, the theme is actually half-there, mainly thanks to msiism. We > just have to finish it up and rebuild the package ;) true. on ascii we have quite some new entries in the team :^) msiism, irrwahn, amesser and others have given great help on desktop issues and documentation and general understanding of issues and last not least we have understood how to fix the loginkitd mess. your call to remember the early dire days of exodus is timely, as the hungry gap is approaching we shall fast at least one day by running only your devuan minimal-live :^D ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please, provide a means to remove the default wallpapers.
dear Olaf, On Sun, 11 Mar 2018, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > Seems a bit drastic just to get rid of the default theme. On my > > system this wants to remove 438 packages covering most if not all > > of Xfce, the only desktop I have installed. > > Sorry, I have set APT::Get::AutomaticRemove to true, hence the large > number of packages to be removed. When set to false, the default, > it's only three. desktop-base task-desktop task-xfce-desktop thanks for double-checking. having so many packages removed after desktop-base would be a problem to be fixed in Devuan, especially considering needs of derivative distros. OT: after so many years I reverted to use wmaker as my wm (and it makes me happy!) noticing it has no Devuan themeing. In this as in other window managers this is a task open for volunteers willing to help. Anyone interested is very welcome! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Whitelisting?
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018, Bruce Perens wrote: >GNU Mailman should be able to exclude unapproved subscribers from >posting. The spams should be removed from the archive to keep >them from being used to defame us. thanks Bruce, we acted more or less this way, thanks also to people caring and volunteering their time on these issues here. There is definitely no need for a "whitelist" as we did not have big disruptions to justify an "emergency mode" moderation. we'll carry on this way, reacting to problems when they are manifest, asking people to not feed but also to not be affected by trolls. it may take some days to act on these cases but rest assured this place is far from being abandoned, unattended and left open to vandalism. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuanfwojg73k6r.onion and pkgmaster.devuan.org are they and have they ever been the same?
On Thu, 15 Feb 2018, KatolaZ wrote: > I guess you should be more careful when publicly threatening a person > in this way. The archives of this mailing list are public, > timestamped, backed up, and freely accessed on the web. I hope noone is too concerned by the manipulations, lies and threat of this Fungal person. I am sincerely sorry we cannot help behind banning this account, reassure Alessandro and everyone these threats are just silly ramblings (as the rest) and hoping someone with a professional background in therapy takes care of this Fungal case. I'd be very sorry to know this is another systemd hooligan or a troll paid to haunt our discussion spaces and undermine trust in the Devuan project with made up FUD. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] warning: Devuan jessie i386 doesn't boot on i586
On 14 February 2018 23:06:34 CET, Andreas Messer wrote: >On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:27:32PM +0100, Alexander Bochmann wrote: >> ...on Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:09:17PM +0100, Irrwahn wrote: >> >> > Alexander Bochmann wrote on 14.02.2018 21:56: >> > > System resets before even loading Devuan-built grub. >> > Now that is particularly odd, as grub is not among the packages >> > that were forked by Devuan but rather is merged from Debian. >> >> Agh, odd indeed. Just my bad luck again? It is old hardware >> after all... > >As far as i understand, GCC 6 in Devuan and Debian uses >by default march=i686. This default setting is used when building >all the packages for the i386 arch. oh, this is so sad :-( I wish we can fix this one day... ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 2.0.0 Beta released
Thanks for your accurate answer Patrick if Fungal keeps pontifying unsubstantiated claims and denigrating conspiracy theories against us after your answer, it will be banned from here too. OTOH to anyone who is reading and wants to bring to our attention a problem in beta: you are welcome to express it in detail and based on the troubleshooting method Patrick suggests. We will be grateful. But none of the problems raised were so far proven and, in case they are, they all refer to a pre-beta and now beta system (ASCII) which we are keen to fix. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] systemd local privilege escalation (CVE-2017-18078)
hi everyone Parazyd just caught my attention with this interesting story, to be added to the history of catastrophies we dodged. I hope someone keeps a list of systemd CVEs somewhere? https://packetstormsecurity.com/files/146184/systemd-Local-Privilege-Escalation.html " Before version 237, the systemd-tmpfiles program will change the permissions and ownership of hard links. If the administrator disables the fs.protected_hardlinks sysctl, then an attacker can create hard links to sensitive files and subvert systemd-tmpfiles, particularly with "Z" type entries. " ...meanwhile I heard from people back from FOSDEM that Mr.Poettering went on to rewrite rsync :^D ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Help with Spectre and Meltdown
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018, Cassandra of Troy wrote: > Much appreciated from lurker(s) as well as the OP. > > Looking forward to unplugging this live USB stick and reading my mail on > Jessie tomorrow morning. :) > > If any of you have the spare time to reply on or offlist, I value your > opinions on whether switching to an AMD processor from a libreboooted > Thinkpad something that an average joe should be prioritizing right now. I am not really sure about this and believe also AMD cpus are affected. here is a good and recent roundup by the folks at LWN https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/744287/82c63dd89360b76a/ and I do recommend subscribing LWN if you want to stay more up to date ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fosdem
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, Antony Stone wrote: > Hi. I'm just wondering whether the Devuan project will have any > presence at https://fosdem.org/2018/ to let people know about > progress (or even existence)? we have a low-key presence which was facilitated by Loic Dachary, to whom I'm very grateful. it is not about Devuan per-se, but heads.dyne.org (our amnesiac live-cd derivative) and will be presented by parazyd. I'll try to be there as well. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.
hi William, thanks for your message :) its encouraging to read you. plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, William C Vaughan wrote: >From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now >dilletante, you Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. See >the forest over the trees, get your message out as an upstream >solution to Linux in the enterprise - from servers to employee >desktop/laptop solutions, there is no reason that systemd-free >Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat, etc., cabal. They >have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former employer, a >major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and >sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar. I very much agree with you, we have an opportunity and we should seize it "soonish". In most EU and US based organisations I believe enterprise-level ICT contracts will expire around 2019 and 2020 and will need to be renovated or may be changed. If we are consolidated by then, have a reasonable amount of money to reinvest in Devuan for entreprise level services (a 10% of the donations going to Debian would be enough to get started) and perhaps have our own certification... we can play the game at the table with these giants and be a palatable investment for people with old money who understand how fast tables can flip in ICT. There are also more sources of investment that can help us stand on our feet: sponsorships as well institutional projects that Dyne.org is doing and that are based on Devuan (see i.e. DECODEproject.eu) However *now* we must concentrate on quality and details, because our (still limited, as you say) audience doesn't cares about marketing speech, but about details and perfectionism. That's what we are doing and that's also what puts us an inch above all those saying you can use Debian without systemd and then "take care of the small details". After ASCII we need all to get out there and talk about Devuan to the people who can help it grow and likely also make a gain in doing so. I am confident this will work, we actually had already an amazing coverage all considered. Here in Amsterdam we are creating this year a limited responsibility company that may be able to provide some degree of entreprise level service to customers and some of its shares will be available to new aligned investors. We'll see. And certifications, again, I think they are quite important and there is nothing holding us from making a no-nonsense certification course in ... good'ol UNIX minimalism :^) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018, Erik Christiansen wrote: > If a foreign distro has forked your original, then in our distro it > seems entirely reasonable for you as originator to restore the > original. If the foreign fork failed to identify itself as such, > then it is not your problem or ours when substituting the original > reclaims the original name. It is up to the fork to find a way to > differentiate itself. If our community wants to keep both, then I > propose that the debian package be renamed vimoutliner-debfork or > similar. I agree with all of the above. Plus its also part of Devuan's generic mission to re-establish a constructive and respectful relationship with upstream software developers, a long-standing problem Debian has. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] packages or pkgmaster?
On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549 > > Those instructions say to use > > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ experimental main > > Elsewhere I've been told to use pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged instead. > > WHich is correct in this case? Let's say we are in a sort of transition period. we have a new round-robin setup that is just ready for restricted testing (details on devuan-dev) which includes all functioning package mirrors so far and a bot to check if all hosts are reachable, have valid paths and Release file signatures (again thanks to Katolaz for all the work put into this). Give us a few weeks and this will be announced along with the ASCII beta images and then documentation should be updated to use it (its a new vhost) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial
On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package, > making changes, and building a Devuan package? soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan Developer's Manual" we are preparing. I'll post the link in this thread then. ciao! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] ZFS Packages
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017, Jaromil wrote: > On Fri, 22 Dec 2017, Chris Dos wrote: > > > Know nothing about zfs? Well, don't start learning it as you will probably > > not want to use anything else. > > I confirm this :^) real pity for the licensing... but yea, btrfs still > can't cover all functionalities of ZFS, just some. I run a ZRAID since > years and wow. whopsie, apologies for cross-posting, actually moving the thread, by mistake. This was on devuan-dev (where Chris has contributed a patch to fix ZFS, yay!) and on prepping the reply headers to list I hit the wrong completion to dng. habits. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] ZFS Packages
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017, Chris Dos wrote: > Know nothing about zfs? Well, don't start learning it as you will probably > not want to use anything else. I confirm this :^) real pity for the licensing... but yea, btrfs still can't cover all functionalities of ZFS, just some. I run a ZRAID since years and wow. cheers ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan in the German Wikipedia
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 19/12/2017 à 18:08, Michael Siegel a écrit : > > The point I was trying to make there, was that the way the article > > states those facts is misleading, not that they are actually untrue. It > > just really provokes the question "So, why use Devuan at all?" in kind > > of a strange way. And as a whole, it gives a wrong impression of what > > Devuan is. > > I agree on this point. When reading this article you get the > impression that Debian offers you all freedom and Devuan just offers > less (systemd). Therefore what's the point of installinf Devuan? Good for me I can read german. I now understand the concern and believe Michael is well qualified to correct any mistakes present. I hope my opinions were useful for any edits you intend to make. Since the treatment I got at the time of the debianfork declaration I'm not really giving any attention to wikipedia. But you are right to care about these details. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan in the German Wikipedia
dear Michael, On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Michael Siegel wrote: > 1. > The intro paragraph says: > "Erklärtes Ziel ist es, nicht den umstrittenen systemd-Dienst als > 'init'-Prozess fest vorzugeben, sondern die Wahl des init-Prozesses dem > Anwender zu überlassen und ein möglichst breites Spektrum an > init-Systemen zu unterstützen wie es auch in Debian möglich ist.[2]" > > That translates to: "The stated aim is not to prescribe the > controversial systemd service as the 'init' system, but leave the choice > of the init system to the user and to support a preferably wide range of > init systems like it is also possible in Debian.[2]" > > Question: How does Debian support a wide range of init systems? Even the > claim that supporting a variety of init systems is possible with Debian > is at least a half-truth if you take into account what it takes to not > use systemd. > > The source cited in the footnote is https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom. > That web page, however, doesn't state it as Devuan's aim to support a > preferably wide range of init systems, but rather to "restor[e] a sane > approach to PID1". And, of course, it doesn't claim Debian was able to > support a variety of init systems. It actually states the opposite, stating: > "While Debian claims that 'Systemd is becoming the de facto standard > init system for Linux', a number of GNU/Linux distributions, some new, > beg to differ. While Debian claims that 'It is better than existing > alternatives for all of Debian's current use cases', these rebel > GNU/Linux distributions refuse this one-size-fits-all vision of the *nix > world that breaks portability, ignores backwards compatibility, and > replaces existing services, forcing systemd into adoption." > > The sentence that follows the one quoted above makes things even worse: > "Im Gegensatz zu Debian entfernt Devuan allerdings die Unterstützung für > systemd." > > Translated: "But contrary to Debian, Devuan removes support for systemd." > > To sum up: Devuan doesn't want to enforece systemd onto its users but > leave them a choice and support a variety of init systems. But that is > also possible with Debian. Only Devuan removes support for systemd. > > That's not exactly right, is it? I believe this is correct and in line with our proposition. As a matter of fact we are fixing init packages that do not work in Debian, for instance OpenRC, nothwithstanding sysvinit stays the default, also in ASCII. > 2. > A few paragraphs later, the article claims that Devuan was also aiming > to "make it possible" to use systemd, provided its integration won't > collide with other init systems or create incompatibilities: "Auch > systemd soll ermöglicht werden, sofern die Integration ohne Kollision > mit anderen init-Systemen oder Inkompatibilitäten möglich ist.[2]" > > What did that footnote point to again? Right, > https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom . > > Now, that is an obvious mismatch. No, this is correct too. If systemd would be only an init we'd be fine with it. Also please note our problem is specifically with Debian where a weak and manipulated majority has unresponsibly taken over and decided to impose systemd to everyone, disregarding what the users were asking and in fact violating its social contract. I explain this in the video linked from that page. > 3. > "Das in systemd integrierte udev wird durch gudev ersetzt." > > "Udev, which has been integrated into systemd, is being replaced by gudev." > > That was actually claimed by someone on pro-linux.de in December 2016 > (http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/24234/devuan-ver%C3%83%C2%B6ffentlicht-beta-2.html) > – for no discernable reason. this is not correct. It is being replaced by eudev and there are experiments also to support vdev as an option. > 4. > "Die mit Langzeitunterstützung ausgestattete Distribution richtet sich > besonders an gewerbliche Anwender." > > Roughly: "The long-term support release [jessie] is especially targeted > at commerical users." > > I doubt that is true. yes, this is no true as you say. Devuan is a universal distribution. Also we may consider ourselves to be all 'participants' in it, rather than differentiate between 'users' and 'developers', since many of those of use who can be considered developers are actually using Devuan. This is OT, but AFAIK many Debian developers simply use OSX, so... the main difference I believe should be between people who rely on our OS and those who don't. > 5. > Maybe someone should provide a screen shot of a Devuan Jessie desktop > with Xfce in place. Golinux is the best one to do that. Many thanks for your attention to details! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Interface names changed after eudev installation
hi Harald, On Wed, 13 Dec 2017, Harald Arnesen wrote: > Steve Litt [2017-12-13 20:59]: > > > Although this new namescheme is cheerleadered by systemd fanboiz > > FreeDesktop.Org, many sans-systemd distros have adopted the new device > > naming scheme. I've lived with it for a few years, and it's really not > > that terribly bad. > > That's your opinion. I think it's terribly bad. I think I can speak for most if not all developers active behind Devuan right now that this is also terribly bad for all of us. Devuan should do everything possible so that devices do not change names arbitrarily and in any case without the consent of administrators. While the report starting this thread is not yet verified (and hard to replicate due to lack of information) we do have a currently known and bad condition in Devuan: if the network device will change on the same installation, its suffix number will be increased (wlan0 -> wlan1 -> wlan2) I think this is also terrible especially on systems that have a single network device which has been simply substituted. I wonder if anyone has more insights about this. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] eudev in experimental for ascii
dear DNG readers, for those who have Devuan ASCII running, we have a package of eudev in experimental to test and feedback is very welcome, since this is the candidate package to substitute udev. eudev is maintained upstream by talented people at Gentoo who definitely deserve our praise. Beware this package DOES NOT WORK ON Jessie. For your convenience an ASCII based qcow2 image and vagrant box is publicly available via the DECODE project (Devuan derivative) https://files.dyne.org/decode/OS/ So when you are running ASCII already then all you have to do is add the experimental repository to your apt sources.list with this line deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan experimental main then apt update and apt-get -t experimental install eudev currently, the full version of the package is 3.2.2-devuan2.7 those who were already testing our eudev package need to specify the full version, since we are switching to correct semantic versioning and dropping the "220" prefix inherited by bad versioning practices in udev: apt-get -t experimental install eudev=3.2.2-devuan2.7 According to our tests it installs and it boots! ii eudev 3.2.2-devuan2.7 ii libeudev1:amd643.2.2-devuan2.7 ii libudev1 1:3.2.2-devuan2.7 ii udev 1:3.2.2-devuan2.7 It goes the other way, too. apt-get install udev=232-25+deb9u1 libudev1=232-25+deb9u1 Still reboots. Just a config file remains. Not a problem. rc eudev 3.2.2-devuan2.7 ii libudev1:amd64 232-25+deb9u1 ii udev 232-25+deb9u1 Among long term considerations on the advantages this move brings us, the immediate catch is that by installing eudev you will not see anymore the string "systemd" appear in your process list. For reports please use this thread (same subject!) or our git issues https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/eudev Many thanks to all the Devuan team for the work being done towards ASCII and in particular to Parazyd and Svante Signell for maintaining the package and giving it the love it deserves. Wish you all a great week. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Countering trusting trust (Was: forensics on systemd or journald logs)
On Fri, 24 Nov 2017, Patrick Meade wrote: > On 11/23/2017 05:28 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..aye. And then we have the good old Ken Thompson style compiler > > hacks and 33 years of water under the bridge to come up with even > > better hacks... > > David Wheeler taught us how to counter Ken Thompson's Trusting Trust attack > 8 years ago. > > https://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ fantastic post, didn't knew it, thanks! I have been very passionate about this topic myself for a while now. It wasn't water under the bridges btw, since many safety-critical and life-critical systems have mandatory checks to be done on compilers before adopting them into production, at least in Europe AFAIK. Another fascinating approach is that of using languages for formal proof management like Coq. I like to keep my mind occupied thinkering around stuff like "satisfiability modulo theories" (SMT) and termination proof. Still coding a prototype around some ideas... ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: > On 22/11/17 11:42, Jaromil wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: > > > > > No way to do that? Seriously? No way at all? > > jeez, is John a troll? > > My little joke about the usefulness of the systemd journal in diagnosing the > /etc/rc.local problem could conceivably be considered trolling. no, not that. your aggressive attitude and your manipulation of information does. John: you are not welcome here. following up confirmations I've received off-list, this behavior now gets you moderated. I am entertained by the fact that, after 3 years of Devuan's project thriving and establishing itself as a popular base distro, we can even tolerate this bully attitude in shilling systemd and argue with it. We all got to know bullies like John, in a way or another. But there is no space for them here when they start being aggressive. Those who are compelled to continue talk with him can do so off-list or on other venues. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: > > On 22/11/17 06:50, KatolaZ wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 02:59:11AM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > > ..is there a way to decode and read those binary systemd journal logs > > > on classic POSIX/Unix etc forensic systems _not_ running systemd? > > > > > No, there is no way to do that, and we are probably spiralling down > > another flame... :( > > > > No way to do that? Seriously? No way at all? jeez, is John a troll? it would explain his constant questions, keeping ignoring details that are already explicit in the thread and wasting our time. also this reply is clearly aimed at triggering, it contains no information at all. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: >Come to think about it, if the problem was that their rc.local >was failing somewhere then they should be able to see that in the >output of systemctl or journalctl. > >Assuming they're using systemd, of course. :-) Not really. Its not just me, systemd is not considered to be safe for use by any security expert I know of (and I know more than I wish...) a legendary Bitcoin core developer (luke-jr) is explicitly encouraging the switch to Devuan, while many already use it to run full nodes using bitcoin-knots. One day we may even release a Devuan-based distro for this. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: >I followed your link to "gitian-building-setup-gitian-debian.md" > >Which says that you need to create the rc.local and reboot. I see no >mention of systemctl. Am I looking in the wrong place? nono, as I wrote: that script doesn't works anymore, if ran on a freshly debootstrapped version of Debian 9. It seemed that rc.local wasn't executed anymore. But there is some confusion, since both brctl and ifconfig are legitimately deprecated. Assuming you have done better checking, then the failure may be caused by them bailing out. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: > On 21/11/17 16:19, Jaromil wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: > > > > > > Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions? > > > What regression? > > the fact that besides creating it and making it executable, one must > > also activate the service unit. > > No, you don't. systemd runs systemd-rc-local-generator at boot time and > after any systemd configuration change. You don't have to activate the > unit, that's done for you. OK, then I'm wrong. I'm very happy of that too! thanks. The new issue about initscripts is orthogonal to my arguments. The issue on bitcoin-core I guess we have only because of other deprecations. Again, that's really what this discussion list is very useful for. No representative of Devuan should go making public statements of such importance without grinding them here first. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017, John Hughes wrote: > > Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions? > > What regression? the fact that besides creating it and making it executable, one must also activate the service unit. > > In Debian right now I don't even see a debate, > > A debate about what? Whether rc.local should be run? Whoever said it > shouldn't be? Or that it won't be in the future? I am afraid that is not enough to create /etc/rc.local to have it ran by default. just afraid, not checked enough, hence asking > Rumors. From some of the least reliable tech sites on the web > (stackoverflow! Ack Pfft!). Did you see any of these "rumors" on > an actual Debian site or mailing list? no, the "rumors" I refer to are, as I said, coming from an upstream project whose CI has broken. I'm glad we also have an important take away for Devuan as Katolaz points out: to mark the initscripts package as important. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?
dear John and Olaf, Thanks for proving me wrong, this is exactly what I hoped for. In fact my mail was perhaps badly worded and contained already a rant, but was really about asking this list for a critical analysis. For 2 main reasons: 1) there are very knowledgeable people (like you both) that often are capable of checking better than me 2) I am a lazy wolf and prefer writing a mail than checking myself. I also note as you point out that this behavior may be counterproductive for the public perception of this project: a way or another I also represent Devuan and maybe I should hold off this attitude and post only things that I am sure of. This is difficult for me, since I conceive spaces for debate as this and other mailinglists as spaces where to share doubts, fears, needs and dreams even more than findings and announcements, for which an article or a twit @DevuanOrg may be better. anyway, point taken. I know well that I'm wrong sometimes, just like now. So now I agree that considering this and the other discussion about redis, there is no real "vandalism" happening in Debian. About redis was just a maintainer fumbling around broken scripts through releases, while the rc.local case its just that people don't care about the regressions introduced by systemd. Then I believe we also agree that rc.local is a serious regressions? because it now needs to be activated via two new systemctl commands, forcing millions of people around the world to go lookup those commands instead of keeping the default. I believe defaults should be kept intact. In the worst case there should be clear documentation of their change. In Debian right now I don't even see a debate, only rumors of "deprecation" in other avenues. Whatever that may mean for Debian and its future. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
