Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
croatiafidelis.hr> writes: > On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning? > > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? The “Mir” præfix means it comes from me / The MirOS Project. “WTF” has OpenBSD-historic connotations. > At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made: > > systemd-must-die […] > So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of > the name. This is not exactly right. I made the package, Wookey uploaded it¹ and suggested to have two of them (as the systemd-must-die one prevented also the use of the shim), we talked and ended up having three levels of prevention, which were also rejected by ftpmasters with a neutral name because “such a hate package will never be accepted as long as [that person] am an ftpmaster”. Since then, the collection grew, as others contributed as well. And it has been useful to many. > maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan I’d be extremely unpleased if you used the Mir præfix there. Jaromil dyne.org> writes: > I did not know Mir's story, neither analysed packages. Are they in a git repo? that would No. I dislike git. They used to be in CVS mostly, but that turned out to be unnecessary overhead, so all you get currently is the most recent version of the packages as proper Debian source and binary packages, suitable for all Debian derivates as-is (possibly after a binNMU, but almost all packages share the same binaries across versions, taking e.g. the sarge- or etch-built binaries and using them on later ones, they’re that compatible0. bye, //mirabilos ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > I can see that, now, Jaromil, you basically seem to be inclined to > allow in Devuan pretty much just what I tried to get available in it > (not just for me, but for others who will want to go that way). yes Miroslav - and vdev is one of the most important pieces of this puzzle, I believe. That's why we are doing everything possible to support the good work Jude is doing. > And to me, that really has much more weight than the little hardship > that made me a little annoyed and, also spiteful, in one or two > occasions. I hope this matter need not cause unrest to anyone any > longer now. just water over the dam. > I would however like to show how I'm trying to bring things to > cooperativeness with Thorsten too: thanks for the passionate initiative, but I believe we don't need to drag people into the Devuan project, rather than enable those who are already involved. the value of Devuan today is first and foremost our infrastructure: the continuous integration system allowing us to be an alternative base system to Debian and still capable to provide replicable builds. The Mir WTF project may (or may not) match our quality standards, however you'll be able to use it with Devuan without the need of any coordination between our teams: as mirabilios says there is no need to make a version for Devuan. ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 09:11:57AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > > On 24 July 2015 05:26:00 CEST, Isaac Dunham wrote: > >On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > >> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> > >> > I do not understand this entire thread. > > >> yep. this is sort of going bonkers. > > [... Isaac's detailed explanation ...] > > >Does that clarify anything? > > yes Isaac, thanks for taking the time. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but for some > reason > me and Jude started receiving private emails of similar confusing kind and > this made > me nervous enough to compalain here. Glad we can count on your balanced > reaction. > > I did not know Mir's story, neither analysed packages. Are they in a git > repo? that would > help a lot, perhaps we could host them on our gitlab if needed. > > I am interested in the effort and it would be easy to offer Devuan/Mir > installers toasted > through our CI. I think such a minimal system is interesting to have, I can > imagine it would > be saving some time when installing embedded and/or hardened systems. > I'd like to thank Isaac too, and I'm really grateful to you! I can see that, now, Jaromil, you basically seem to be inclined to allow in Devuan pretty much just what I tried to get available in it (not just for me, but for others who will want to go that way). And to me, that really has much more weight than the little hardship that made me a little annoyed and, also spiteful, in one or two occasions. I hope this matter need not cause unrest to anyone any longer now. I would however like to show how I'm trying to bring things to cooperativeness with Thorsten too: MirDebian WTF topic on Devuan ML http://marc.info/?t=14376843265&r=1&w=2 (the thread itself is because they had it set that way, to me that is OK, even though neither me, not Jaromil wrote to the list. I'm sure the matter discussed is the kind that devs like not to remain in private mails, but to go directly to public) where, please find my recent message: (same title) http://marc.info/?l=miros-discuss&m=143775343704222&w=2 and if now this matter turns out in more peaceful terms from all the involved, I'll be more than happy! And I'd like to, as soon as I find time, test if I can install a no-dbus no-poetterware Devuan, and till then, I'll be off the list, only reading from you, since I'm not a dev, and really my top achievement I'm afraid can only be, hopefully a good tester. But I will be busy elsewhere in the forthcoming days, and I expect to find time to test Devuan like that hardly sooner than in ten *or more* days only. But I'm really looking forward to my testing Devuan! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On 24 July 2015 05:26:00 CEST, Isaac Dunham wrote: >On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: >> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> >> > I do not understand this entire thread. >> yep. this is sort of going bonkers. [... Isaac's detailed explanation ...] >Does that clarify anything? yes Isaac, thanks for taking the time. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but for some reason me and Jude started receiving private emails of similar confusing kind and this made me nervous enough to compalain here. Glad we can count on your balanced reaction. I did not know Mir's story, neither analysed packages. Are they in a git repo? that would help a lot, perhaps we could host them on our gitlab if needed. I am interested in the effort and it would be easy to offer Devuan/Mir installers toasted through our CI. I think such a minimal system is interesting to have, I can imagine it would be saving some time when installing embedded and/or hardened systems. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I do not understand this entire thread. > > > > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. > > What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the eaning? > > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? > > yep. this is sort of going bonkers. > > me and other developers on this list started receiving delirium mails > from this WTF guy in private, not sure what to make about them if not > evince he is flaming with himself or another guy with the same name. Thorsten Glaser, the Debian Developer who authored the GR against systemd, maintains two repositories named "wtf" and "yplentyn". Collectively, they are referred to as "MirDebian", after Thorsten's nickname "mirabilos". These repositories are designed for running without systemd, pulse, dbus, and a whole lot of similar stuff. The "systemd_must_die" package that aroused such a flamewar was in the MirDebian wtf repository, and has been renamed "prevent_systemd_completely". The OP is not mirabilos, nor even of the same nationality; the only connection is that the first three letters of his name are the same as the first three lettters of Thorsten's nickname "mirabilos". (Note that "miro" has "o" as the fourth letter; ISTR that it's short for Miroslav.) However, the OP objects to much of the software that Thorsten has worked on disabling/removing, and thus has been promoting the mirdebian wtf repository. The OP has repeatedly stated that systemd, pulse, and dbus are all backdoors for remote exploits, and provided notes on removing them with the aid of Thorsten's repositories and hardening a system with grsec; these notes have been useful to some, despite the OP not being fluent in English. As far as I can tell, the current thread is the OP's attempt to ask Thorsten if he intends to duplicate the repositories for Devuan. It is my understanding, based on my previous examination of the repositories, that nothing in there would have to change for Devuan. Does that clarify anything? HTH, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:12:01AM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote: > > ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and is > documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of GNU/Fedora > it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to port > away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation. So there are alternatives to GTK: Do any suck less? What are they? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I do not understand this entire thread. > > > > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. > > What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the meaning? > > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? > > yep. this is sort of going bonkers. > > me and other developers on this list started receiving delirium mails > from this WTF guy in private, not sure what to make about them if not > evince he is flaming with himself or another guy with the same name. > > or perhaps is just plain disruption, with all the FUD contained. > > we'll draw a line at a certain point and cease the noise. hold on. I think he actually has something to say, but he's having a hard time saying it. It seems as if he keept distracting himself while he's writing. I'd not want to see him suppressed. He seems to be talking about a Linux system that's much more ascetic than devuan is planning to be in terms of eschewing commonly included packages. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I do not understand this entire thread. > > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. > What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the eaning? > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? yep. this is sort of going bonkers. me and other developers on this list started receiving delirium mails from this WTF guy in private, not sure what to make about them if not evince he is flaming with himself or another guy with the same name. or perhaps is just plain disruption, with all the FUD contained. we'll draw a line at a certain point and cease the noise. hold on. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:44:32 -0700 James Powell wrote: > So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement > Userspace IPC handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems > and UNIX? Nothing. I've never felt the functionality to be especially valuable. I guess I won't get informed when Clementine changes songs. Oh well. > If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in > compatible? You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just > to satisfy a grievance. I don't know about others, but *I* was talking about something a user does, not something Devuan does. > > This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, See my response above. > and I'm > sorry if you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX > compliant software. See my response above. > It's not perfect, but are any protocols that > allow interapplication and interprocess communication across a system > and network going to be not be complex to work? I could probably make one, but that's besides the point. > > Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or > appropriate for Devuan. I can't speak for others, but all I did was give instructions on how a user could run sans-dbus if s/he, doesn't like I, don't like dbus. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Good evening, On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 01:44:32PM -0700, James Powell wrote: > So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement Userspace IPC > handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems and UNIX? > > If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in compatible? > You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just to satisfy a > grievance. nanomsg, sunrpc, a common specification to use pipes where needed and msgpacks in socket where needed, ya name it. But... > This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, and I'm sorry if > you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX compliant software. > It's not perfect, but are any protocols that allow interapplication and > interprocess communication across a system and network going to be not be > complex to work? ... but, yeah, it's outside the scope of Devuan. D-Bus just sucks and is documented on a random basis, when you compare it to the rest of GNU/Fedora it's... like GTK: it sucks, there are alternatives but it's a PITA to port away 'cause a lot of big codebases uses them as foundation. > Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or appropriate for > Devuan. And this is not the workplace of the guy who carves in stone *all* the pinpoints, bikesheds and milestones for Devuan. Just *some*. Most of what you read is forum talk, tbh. -- Teodoro Santoni Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Le 23/07/2015 22:44, James Powell a écrit : So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement Userspace IPC handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems and UNIX? If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in compatible? You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just to satisfy a grievance. The main idea discussed here was to manage to not need it, not at all to replace it :-) This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, and I'm sorry if you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX compliant software. It's not perfect, but are any protocols that allow interapplication and interprocess communication across a system and network going to be not be complex to work? Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or appropriate for Devuan. Full agreement. This was just a friendly off topic discussion. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
So exactly what do we use in place of D-Bus as a replacement Userspace IPC handler and protocol that is Generic to POSIX systems and UNIX? If we rip out D-Bus what do we use in it's place that is drop in compatible? You're talking about tearing apart a LOT of packages just to satisfy a grievance. This is outside the scope and mission statement of Devuan, and I'm sorry if you dislike D-Bus so much, but it is accepted and POSIX compliant software. It's not perfect, but are any protocols that allow interapplication and interprocess communication across a system and network going to be not be complex to work? Again, a witch hunt on software is not necessary, needed, or appropriate for Devuan. From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr<mailto:miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> Sent: 7/23/2015 9:19 AM To: dng@lists.dyne.org<mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org> Subject: Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"? On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I do not understand this entire thread. > > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. > What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning? > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? > > -- hendrik (corrected typoes in your input, if that's not what you meant, cry foul!) Hi, hendrik! Yes, WTF probably means that (but they may have another excuse-name along). They were really outraged at the Debian Developers in charge for not allowing the name, wait, I got to search for it... (I'll search from the first message in this thread, the one with a host of links, by me)... Yes I think it's in the first. At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made: systemd-must-die find it in the: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=15#p550700 (second page) I can remember and tell about it because I wrote to them: (same topic) http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484 (third page) but it was almost certainly censored out but the then provider of mine, You can find the link in that same "stealth install" topic to: Postfix smtp-tls-wrapper, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, a Zerk Provider https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html which if you open, you easily find: status=bounced (host 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1] said: 550-"JunkMail rejected - 147-226.dsl.iskon.hr (n4m3.localdomain) 550-[89.164.147.226]:41972 is in an RBL, see 550 and you can, if you have time and are interested in fighting censorship, study around there, as well as (not confirmed, only suspected): https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.180226.3ff750a1.en.html where find: 550 Unrouteable address (when I send email to Thorsten) and imagine what happened. Did mirabilos quit Debian? I don't know, but being that he provides packages for Debian, I don't think it's likely. So if you are interested about why they call it that, that's probably it. For more, one can read that resumé topic of mine, which although 12 forum pages, is much, much shorter than the very ample discussion on DD List. I wrote those forum pages of resumé for DD List discussions, after I read pretty much all of the then recent DD mail archive, So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of the name. Everything is being killed all the time in Unix, jobs and processes, but systemd was not allowed to die, by some moralist DD. To be honest, I'm not sure about the details of the prevent-systemd packages now. I would be if I were to install it, but I'm waiting for Devuan to get dbus-free, or allow dbus freedom in some way... Maybe mirabilos mada a package of his own, probably so, yeah, and didn't build on wookey's package... So I haven't (so far) made contact with Thorsten mirabilos Glaser, the founder of MirBSD, but should Devuan eventually fail to provide a no-dbus and no-poetterware desktop, I might have to, forced to search for options, also be learning more about it... Who knows. I won't be running a dbus- or a poetterware- nothing. But I hope you at Devuan will be working to get a distro that can be installed hardened, no-dbus, no-any-poetterware and associates, and maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan WTF for Devuan needs... But I am really not a dev, and I really have spoken enough I believe. Unless someone has questions, or either T.J Duchene or James Powell decide to reply to my questions to them, or launch some counter questions, I'll be looking for my exit from contributing to this developers' list, and follow you silently. The links to MirBSD are, in the 1st page above mentioned, only, use the domain only: MirBSD https://www.mirbsd.org/ and it is called after his nickname, mirabilos, I believe. -- Miroslav
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I do not understand this entire thread. > > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. > What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning? > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? > > -- hendrik (corrected typoes in your input, if that's not what you meant, cry foul!) Hi, hendrik! Yes, WTF probably means that (but they may have another excuse-name along). They were really outraged at the Debian Developers in charge for not allowing the name, wait, I got to search for it... (I'll search from the first message in this thread, the one with a host of links, by me)... Yes I think it's in the first. At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made: systemd-must-die find it in the: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=15#p550700 (second page) I can remember and tell about it because I wrote to them: (same topic) http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484 (third page) but it was almost certainly censored out but the then provider of mine, You can find the link in that same "stealth install" topic to: Postfix smtp-tls-wrapper, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, a Zerk Provider https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html which if you open, you easily find: status=bounced (host 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1] said: 550-"JunkMail rejected - 147-226.dsl.iskon.hr (n4m3.localdomain) 550-[89.164.147.226]:41972 is in an RBL, see 550 and you can, if you have time and are interested in fighting censorship, study around there, as well as (not confirmed, only suspected): https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.180226.3ff750a1.en.html where find: 550 Unrouteable address (when I send email to Thorsten) and imagine what happened. Did mirabilos quit Debian? I don't know, but being that he provides packages for Debian, I don't think it's likely. So if you are interested about why they call it that, that's probably it. For more, one can read that resumé topic of mine, which although 12 forum pages, is much, much shorter than the very ample discussion on DD List. I wrote those forum pages of resumé for DD List discussions, after I read pretty much all of the then recent DD mail archive, So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of the name. Everything is being killed all the time in Unix, jobs and processes, but systemd was not allowed to die, by some moralist DD. To be honest, I'm not sure about the details of the prevent-systemd packages now. I would be if I were to install it, but I'm waiting for Devuan to get dbus-free, or allow dbus freedom in some way... Maybe mirabilos mada a package of his own, probably so, yeah, and didn't build on wookey's package... So I haven't (so far) made contact with Thorsten mirabilos Glaser, the founder of MirBSD, but should Devuan eventually fail to provide a no-dbus and no-poetterware desktop, I might have to, forced to search for options, also be learning more about it... Who knows. I won't be running a dbus- or a poetterware- nothing. But I hope you at Devuan will be working to get a distro that can be installed hardened, no-dbus, no-any-poetterware and associates, and maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan WTF for Devuan needs... But I am really not a dev, and I really have spoken enough I believe. Unless someone has questions, or either T.J Duchene or James Powell decide to reply to my questions to them, or launch some counter questions, I'll be looking for my exit from contributing to this developers' list, and follow you silently. The links to MirBSD are, in the 1st page above mentioned, only, use the domain only: MirBSD https://www.mirbsd.org/ and it is called after his nickname, mirabilos, I believe. -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
I do not understand this entire thread. I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. What does the Mir" prefi contribute the the eaning? What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
--- I sent this message four hours ago, but didn't include the list address. Sorry! --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:49:34PM -0700, James Powell wrote: ( shouldn't it be like below?, by the netiqette --see KalolaZ just arrived letter in the Multi-seat thread-- ? ) > > Since you would still like it around, in opportunistic or in some other > > way that I should call it, I think a question is due. > > Can you tell to the public what is the purpose of the > > user-not-asked-about, in fact mostly user-never-even-knowing-about-it > > encrypted ssh channel that dbus sets up, along with all the > > non-GNU-compatible remote procedure calls (which are there for what > > purpose?) that dbus implements? > > > > Is that for FOSS stands for? > > > First off cool your jets, and trying call me out on knowing the > internals of an IPC in Userspace I didn't develop is very childish. > Why not? If you're promoting it, or persuading Devuan into the acceptance of it? Anyway, can anyone answer that question? > I honestly don't care if D-Bus what it does other than be a > communication and messaging relay between applications and processes, > as long as it does what it does, and doesn't infringe on anything > else. > > D-Bus is used and is a requirement for some services and software. > You're unfortunately not going to have your cake and coffee with > getting rid of D-Bus. Well then, keep it for those cases, don't put it in all the Devuan boxen by default. Will be fine! > Yes, it's not the greatest design, but it is > friendly at least to the whole UNIX spectrum. > "friendly"... No comment. > Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency > and allowing user choice in init software, not ripping apart every > project to cater to ever niche and fundamentalist out there preaching > what they feel is FOSS, and also to not start a witch hunt on software > projects. What fundamentalists? The Gentoo folks? Thorsten mirabilos Glaser with his MirDebian "WTF" project, a fundamentalist? Me, a fundamentalist? What do you mean? My desire to, after have achived it for me (but only in Gentoo), some freedom and some security, to teach, if we get a true-foss Devuan that can get its MirDevuan "WTF" fork for itself, to teach newbies to build their system hardened-against-intrusion and surveillance-defeating, that desire of mine a fundamentalist desire? --- The rest cut out because somewhat made disorderly and illegible by probably hotmail defaults (that the immediate sender who I'm replying to apparently uses) or for some other reason. --- Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 01:58:28PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 23/07/2015 10:36, T.J. Duchene a écrit : > >> Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to > >> replace the > >>own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But > >>Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4. > >> > >> Didier > >> > >I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS. Could you please explain > >why it is such a point of contention? It is a only a protocol, with many > >different implementations. It is comfortably very generic and usedon other > >UNIXs. > > > > Not a strong animosity. I think the question of designing a > middleware should be addressed with more carefull thinking if to > become a standard. In particular with simplicity in mind. > > For the use Xfce4 makes of it, which is the means to stop the > session (AFAIU), I consider it overcomplicated. > I mostly agree with you Didier about the necessity to have clear in mind objectives before even starting writing the first line of code of a "middleware", but if a man gets stabbed and dies, can we complain with the knife-maker for making knives available on the market? If really xfce needs dbus only to stop a session, the problem is to be attributed to xfce developers, who are overcomplicating something that was simple by adding an unnecessary dependency. And we come back to what I think is the original problem: there is nowadays a rising majority of developers, in all fields, who simply ignore the basics of UNIX and KISS-thinking, and keep throwing on board all kinds of shit just because "it makes things more simple" in their eyes... EndOfTheRant KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Le 23/07/2015 10:36, T.J. Duchene a écrit : Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to replace the own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4. Didier I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS. Could you please explain why it is such a point of contention? It is a only a protocol, with many different implementations. It is comfortably very generic and usedon other UNIXs. Not a strong animosity. I think the question of designing a middleware should be addressed with more carefull thinking if to become a standard. In particular with simplicity in mind. For the use Xfce4 makes of it, which is the means to stop the session (AFAIU), I consider it overcomplicated. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On 7/23/2015 5:16 AM, Laurent Bercot wrote: I agree that it's a fight for another time, though. TY! The information was very simple and very helpful. It's a design flaw that annoys everyone so. This is quite understandable. It has been my experience that a lot of code - FOSS or not - is a series of hacks that could be better designed. It is a sad truth of our profession. =) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On 23/07/2015 10:36, T.J. Duchene wrote: I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS. Could you please explain why it is such a point of contention? It is a only a protocol, with many different implementations. It is comfortably very generic and used on other UNIXs. Simple: it has a horrific design and implementation. It actually exhibits the same technical problems as systemd: it is a monolithic thing that attempts to do everything, and manages to do everything badly. AFAIK, there are no political problems with D-Bus; the political issue comes from those who want to integrate it into the kernel. But boy, are there technical problems. I pity every maintainer in charge of software that uses D-Bus. Just one single example: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1930358/focus=1939166 Using that many resources is horrendous, and a sure sign of terrible, terrible engineering. I agree that it's a fight for another time, though. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
> > Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to replace > the > own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But > Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4. > > Didier > I do not understand this animosity toward D-BUS. Could you please explain why it is such a point of contention? It is a only a protocol, with many different implementations. It is comfortably very generic and used on other UNIXs. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On 7/23/2015 12:49 AM, James Powell wrote: First off cool your jets, and trying call me out on knowing the internals of an IPC in Userspace I didn't develop is very childish. I honestly don't care if D-Bus what it does other than be a communication and messaging relay between applications and processes, as long as it does what it does, and doesn't infringe on anything else. D-Bus is used and is a requirement for some services and software. You're unfortunately not going to have your cake and coffee with getting rid of D-Bus. Yes, it's not the greatest design, but it is friendly at least to the whole UNIX spectrum. Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency and allowing user choice in init software, not ripping apart every project to cater to ever niche and fundamentalist out there preaching what they feel is FOSS, and also to not start a witch hunt on software projects. Well said, James! =) In saying so I am not being critical of Miro. Devuan needs a clear purpose. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Le 22/07/2015 20:51, Steve Litt a écrit : On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me. -Jude I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad that I was wrong! Am I the only one who doesn't understand one word of this thread? I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, it would lack dbus. I was actually able to accomplish that with one alternate-initted Manjaro-OpenRC. No dbus. I used oss instead of alsa, and it worked great. SteveT Like you I mostly understood the wrong assertion that vdev was using dbus, and the answer. Like you I would like to get rid of Dbus. This was invented to replace the own equivalents of Gnome and KDE, and I need neither Gnome nor KDE. But Dbus seems to have infected every other DE. At least Xfce4. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/07/15 07:49, James Powell wrote: > Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency and > allowing user choice in init software Well said, thank you, I very much agree with your entire post and would prefer if there was less noise about unrelated topics. A quick search suggests that it local D-Bus communication is unencrypted, but it can be set up to communicate with applications on remote hosts using SSH connections. I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. Michael -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVsIwJAAoJEIeCTMxZltMWHBwP+wfnAIiX39GexrOz7MiddT8J ClpFfDc7BBmfAR5WjOLeeg37DojVep4CS2plkgwQWUl5hTfD+X9C/Z4GboyCt/Iv qJearMdoiUVAJyi1Yw9EJnoHUaSg1r4iCzENp7qREWF09Y2iyJiYe0N+RMEidPnG 6uTKtpIvd1oS01xjJCglA708TiVaswfTH0Npo1lJbXcmfawivUgCfxu2olkV98mH hrx6ukOVzPMgyzm52cH91+/lEmHmxPQ6y0QZYPFDHIavSfV2RiL/OYa+6ZbEykKL wiMMF9dYMsM+cNnUovlTmjxFoyF3SHFI0LgD0Tw/rE4ycP5mwYCyrqfOQ9Uf4hfn rJedqvODzAsX3k/m+HKe9g38A58OFpsruB5yV8yZseQeQeO6x+RMfxSSeeGxDh3Y mPexZNht5K5JaJMpNYMg7aHayzFmP7/fDVDyltO4D0WMjz/JxyhOm8zqSyWUAxZz NFMDMu658fxhzQa5rClHzH0BthpKD0e555Kzp0Tqc4H9oUdKPw8erOXYcNCHHmP4 UA8RUdIki/zSp4ZBLPhjPDZgeIlYa7n//bAmhIFSFYU9huU4KUt7y6lfrl0J05c2 +4qP/x89Xy+FEG+9Y89Ws6WqJzgura3UiXtYEEpcWX75kp+XD9kWbzJTR1Hb/l74 igi68GlZDq7j7NKpejeP =GFXs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
First off cool your jets, and trying call me out on knowing the internals of an IPC in Userspace I didn't develop is very childish. I honestly don't care if D-Bus what it does other than be a communication and messaging relay between applications and processes, as long as it does what it does, and doesn't infringe on anything else. D-Bus is used and is a requirement for some services and software. You're unfortunately not going to have your cake and coffee with getting rid of D-Bus. Yes, it's not the greatest design, but it is friendly at least to the whole UNIX spectrum. Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency and allowing user choice in init software, not ripping apart every project to cater to ever niche and fundamentalist out there preaching what they feel is FOSS, and also to not start a witch hunt on software projects. From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr<mailto:miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> Sent: 7/22/2015 9:43 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org<mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org> Cc: James Powell<mailto:james4...@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"? On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 03:28:28PM -0700, James Powell wrote: > D-Bus isn't great, but currently it is still a cross-UNIX IPC in > userspace. BSD uses it, Illumos uses it, and so does GNU/Linux. > Since you would still like it around, in opportunistic or in some other way that I should call it, I think a question is due. Can you tell to the public what is the purpose of the user-not-asked-about, in fact mostly user-never-even-knowing-about-it encrypted ssh channel that dbus sets up, along with all the non-GNU-compatible remote procedure calls (which are there for what purpose?) that dbus implements? Is that for FOSS stands for? > D-Bus is way down my list of software to steer clear of any more. Your choice. Does that mean you won't look favorably that us who don't want dbus have a way with our Devuan installs? I hope not. > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 02:51:59PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 > > miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. [...] > > > > -Jude > > > [...] And I'm very glad that I was wrong! > > > > I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, > > it would lack dbus. [...] > And I have in my Gentoo alsa working perfectly (and surely: without > pulseaudio), without dbus, really a nice, intrusion unfriendly install, > and improving. > > And on my Debian when I mostly (not completely) succeeded in applying > lots of stuff from: > > MirDebian "WTF" Repository > https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm > [...] > without [...] poetterware. And I made that Tips page about it (see my > first-in-this-thread mail). It's not as read as my Grsec Install Tips > page for Debian (see my 1st mail), not only was, but still is (still > is!), but it did grew to a few thounsad viewsi [...] > > Meaning, Debianers were able to follow it and clean their systems from > systemd and dbus and pulseaudio with more or less success, or at the > very least were eager too! > Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 03:28:28PM -0700, James Powell wrote: > D-Bus isn't great, but currently it is still a cross-UNIX IPC in > userspace. BSD uses it, Illumos uses it, and so does GNU/Linux. > Since you would still like it around, in opportunistic or in some other way that I should call it, I think a question is due. Can you tell to the public what is the purpose of the user-not-asked-about, in fact mostly user-never-even-knowing-about-it encrypted ssh channel that dbus sets up, along with all the non-GNU-compatible remote procedure calls (which are there for what purpose?) that dbus implements? Is that for FOSS stands for? > D-Bus is way down my list of software to steer clear of any more. Your choice. Does that mean you won't look favorably that us who don't want dbus have a way with our Devuan installs? I hope not. > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 02:51:59PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 > > miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. [...] > > > > -Jude > > > [...] And I'm very glad that I was wrong! > > > > I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, > > it would lack dbus. [...] > And I have in my Gentoo alsa working perfectly (and surely: without > pulseaudio), without dbus, really a nice, intrusion unfriendly install, > and improving. > > And on my Debian when I mostly (not completely) succeeded in applying > lots of stuff from: > > MirDebian "WTF" Repository > https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm > [...] > without [...] poetterware. And I made that Tips page about it (see my > first-in-this-thread mail). It's not as read as my Grsec Install Tips > page for Debian (see my 1st mail), not only was, but still is (still > is!), but it did grew to a few thounsad viewsi [...] > > Meaning, Debianers were able to follow it and clean their systems from > systemd and dbus and pulseaudio with more or less success, or at the > very least were eager too! > Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
D-Bus isn't great, but currently it is still a cross-UNIX IPC in userspace. BSD uses it, Illumos uses it, and so does GNU/Linux. D-Bus is way down my list of software to steer clear of any more. From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr<mailto:miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> Sent: 7/22/2015 12:23 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org<mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org> Subject: Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"? On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 02:51:59PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 > miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. > > > > > > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this > > > conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me. > > > > > > -Jude > > I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad > > that I was wrong! > > Am I the only one who doesn't understand one word of this thread? > > I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, > it would lack dbus. I was actually able to accomplish that with one > alternate-initted Manjaro-OpenRC. No dbus. I used oss instead of alsa, > and it worked great. And I have in my Gentoo alsa working perfectly (and surely: without pulseaudio), without dbus, really a nice, intrusion unfriendly install, and improving. And on my Debian when I mostly (not completely) succeeded in applying lots of stuff from: MirDebian "WTF" Repository https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm (from another, the-then location, actually; and, speaking of changes, it appears MirDebian WTF has even more to offer now then back then, and is regularly updated)... Thorsten, are you reading this (see the attached "550 Unrouteable address" in the 2nd mail of mine in this thread if anybody wonder why I'ask)? I, then, had my Debian running pure alsa as well (but couldn't get the audio for TV-card to work...), and without most any of the other poetterware. And I made that Tips page about it (see my first-in-this-thread mail). It's not as read as my Grsec Install Tips page for Debian (see my 1st mail), not only was, but still is (still is!), but it did grew to a few thounsad views, it did. Ask golinux, xhe was suprised I looked like talking to muself in that page... Meaning, Debianers were able to follow it and clean their systems from systemd and dbus and pulseaudio with more or less success, or at the very least were eager too! Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 02:51:59PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 > miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. > > > > > > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this > > > conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me. > > > > > > -Jude > > I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad > > that I was wrong! > > Am I the only one who doesn't understand one word of this thread? > > I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, > it would lack dbus. I was actually able to accomplish that with one > alternate-initted Manjaro-OpenRC. No dbus. I used oss instead of alsa, > and it worked great. And I have in my Gentoo alsa working perfectly (and surely: without pulseaudio), without dbus, really a nice, intrusion unfriendly install, and improving. And on my Debian when I mostly (not completely) succeeded in applying lots of stuff from: MirDebian "WTF" Repository https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm (from another, the-then location, actually; and, speaking of changes, it appears MirDebian WTF has even more to offer now then back then, and is regularly updated)... Thorsten, are you reading this (see the attached "550 Unrouteable address" in the 2nd mail of mine in this thread if anybody wonder why I'ask)? I, then, had my Debian running pure alsa as well (but couldn't get the audio for TV-card to work...), and without most any of the other poetterware. And I made that Tips page about it (see my first-in-this-thread mail). It's not as read as my Grsec Install Tips page for Debian (see my 1st mail), not only was, but still is (still is!), but it did grew to a few thounsad views, it did. Ask golinux, xhe was suprised I looked like talking to muself in that page... Meaning, Debianers were able to follow it and clean their systems from systemd and dbus and pulseaudio with more or less success, or at the very least were eager too! Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > > > > > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. > > > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this > > conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me. > > > > -Jude > I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad > that I was wrong! Am I the only one who doesn't understand one word of this thread? I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, it would lack dbus. I was actually able to accomplish that with one alternate-initted Manjaro-OpenRC. No dbus. I used oss instead of alsa, and it worked great. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. > > > Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this conclusion. > Search the code if you don't believe me. > > -Jude I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad that I was wrong! Whence I derived that wrong understanding? From having misundestood something with the little time that I dedicated to reading about vdev from the list or elsewhere. Sorry! But Im very glad that I was wrong in that conjecture! Because that means my dream may be feasible when vdev is ready for deployment! Regarding Thorsten Glaser , I got it from reading discussions on debian-devel list, e.g.: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/07/msg00015.html How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484 I got a "550 Unrouteable address" for it, as visibale in the attachment (mirabilos-unroutable.eml). So don't know. Really my dream a true foss Devuan. Cheers! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr From @ Wed Jul 22 17:08:19 2015 Return-Path: <> Received: from lin16.mojsite.com (178.218.164.164:993) by g0n.xdwgrp with IMAP4-SSL; 22 Jul 2015 15:08:19 - Envelope-to: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr Delivery-date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:44 +0200 Received: from smtp7.plusvps.com ([89.201.164.170]:46869) by lin16.mojsite.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) id 1ZHvBJ-00069a-Rc for miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:37 +0200 Received: from exim by smtp7.plusvps.com with local (Exim 4.84) id 1ZHvBJ-000FDh-Nq for miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:37 +0200 X-Failed-Recipients: t...@debian.org Auto-Submitted: auto-replied From: Mail Delivery System To: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Message-Id: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:37 +0200 X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-ID: 1ZHvBJ-00069a-Rc X-PlusHosting-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.078, required 5, BAYES_00 -1.90, DSN_NO_MIMEVERSION 2.00, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 -0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL -0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED 0.00) X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-From: X-Spam-Status: No X-getmail-retrieved-from-mailbox: =?utf-8?q?INBOX?= Status: RO X-Status: F Content-Length: 8693 This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: t...@debian.org SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: host mailly.debian.org [82.195.75.114]: 550 Unrouteable address -- This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. -- Return-path: Received: from lin16.mojsite.com ([178.218.164.164]) by smtp7.plusvps.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHvBD-000FBy-EA for t...@debian.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:31 +0200 Received: from 93-139-7-37.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([93.139.7.37]:59875 helo=g0n.localdomain) by lin16.mojsite.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHvBC-00065X-LM; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:30 +0200 Received: by g0n.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ED39638005A; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:40:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:40:12 +0200 From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr To: dng@lists.dyne.org Cc: Thorsten Glaser Subject: Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"? Message-ID: <20150722144012.GA6689@g0n> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AhhlLboLdkugWU4S" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23+102 (2ca89bed6448) (2014-03-12) X-PlusHosting-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details, Found to be clean X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-Spam-Status: No, No X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lin16.mojsite.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debian.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - croatiafidelis.hr X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: lin16.mojsite.com: authenticated_id: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-ID: 1ZHvBD-000FBy-EA X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Conte
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
> > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me. -Jude ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Hi, Devuaners! I wrote to this list before, a couple of times. As miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr and miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr. I'll start from here: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=45#p552566 ( the encrypted channel not set up by user in every box with dbus; and give me someone the reason that I ask there: "a completely truthful explanation[...], publically, on why is this needed" ) which is, in that long, and well read, counter-systemd article of mine in the form of a forum topic, a section about dbus. I don't want dbus, and lots of other things, in my system. Lots of things like someone much cleverer than me, in terms of computing, a Debian developer, and the leader of MirBSD, advocates (and to whom a Cc: goes), like he advocates against, in most practical terms, on the: MirDebian "WTF" Repository https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm I count dbus in poetterware-related, as it is a ware for the non-FOSS to dig its tentacles deep into your systems, such as in the hooks prepared for them by, among others, Linus himself. [my title to it:] rootkit hooks in the kernel http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html and also see this non-exhaustive, practical list of widely used spy-tools, a list practically compiled by true security experts, published so users can learn to defend themselves): Grsecurity/Appendix/Capability Names and Descriptions https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Grsecurity/Appendix/Capability_Names_and_Descriptions Having a system without systemd like Devuan already is, is great, but is not a complete solution for developing a free unsurveilled system if you keep dbus in it. Not in my book! And not in many others' book. My insisting on no-dbus has been looked favorably by wizards in Gentoo: Uninstalling dbus adn *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats) http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146.html . I have, as far as a user lacking in really advanced expertize can do, an almost perfectly sustainable system that is not easily intruded in, that does not get owned any more, and pranks on my Gentoo system are pretty much reduced to the outside only. And the same is attainable for any Gentoo user, because Gentoo wizards care to make Gentoo packages available for dbus-free systems like mine. As far as my user understanding goes, it's devs who are making it happen. Back to MirDebianWTF repo. I was, applying mirabilos' work on my sysvinit- and non-systemd Debian, [I was] able to get a poetterware-free Debian back then: Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=118197 (see the dates there) Now... If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. Jude C. Nelson, why are you basing it on such a corporate-intrusion-enabling software (or harvesting/other-nefarious-purposes enabling software)? I remember having read from you back quite a few months ago various articles when I was outraged at systemd imposition and was researching about it. I wouldn't have expected you to not realize that dbus was a false-foss program... false for the true sense of the nature of FOSS. But, maybe there's nothing to do now, I don't know. I know I won't be using anything that requires dbus... There was some talk of eudev on devuan mailing list, and people began to implement it. Where is that now? A digression. I follow mostly only Devuan mailing list, as best I can. I'm not privy to all that is happening in Devuan... Shouldn't there anyway be a central place from where to know without searching what and in which section has been done and at what stage this or that is... Like a page to start when you want to know the status and the news, a page always sensibly up to date... [A digression. I follow mostly only Devuan mailing list, as best I can], and if I missed something, be kind to correct me. So eudev not planned? Just to point you at something that sparks my enthusiasm, as a keen supporter. and fills me with some angst at the same time. What it those f**ing tool(s) (as Christopher Barry, http://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 , who I see also follows, if not contributes, to Devuan, as he called Poettering)... [What if those tools] achieve, for their masters, their nefarious purposes sooner then true FOSS devs can raise defences against such threats? plans when udev becomes systemd-only ? (after kdbus merge) https://github.com/gentoo/eudev/issues/95#issuecomment-122873308 And eudev works dbus-free just fine (such as in my Gentoo), dear people! So, maybe to cut the talking shorter: Is no-poetterware, no-dbus Devuan soon to be an attainable option for a user like me, of medium advanced level (my maximum attainable level probably a good tester)? And then in no-dbus no-poetterware Devuan I apply grsec, and teach newbies to install grsec-hardened kernels in their Devuans, like I did in Debian Forums: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/vie
