Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Adam Borowski [2017-07-23 12:57]: >> > I run 32-bit Devuan on one Core2 machine. Why? I can't get Xerox' >> > proprietary printer driver for their Phaser 6010N color laser to work on >> > 64-bit. Several receipes on how to do this, none of them work. > Printer drivers work in userspace, not in kernel. 64-bit x86 kernels can > run i386 binaries just fine -- usually better than a 32-bit kernel would, > as there's no mucking with inadequate address space. Yes, I can probably run a 64-bit kernel on this machine, and still have an exclusively 32-bit userspace. > And on De??an, there's multiarch so you can mix-and-match binaries. > I don't know much about printing (I don't own a printer nor have a reason > to use one more than once per ~2 years), but AFAIK printer drivers are > separate processes so there's no ABI problem whatsoever. In theory, yes. I have tried just that, and it didn't work. I will try again tomorrow, when I see this printer again. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 23.07.2017 15:16, Florian Zieboll wrote: | The production of a laptop consumes so much energy that for energetic | reasons it is never worthwhile to exchange an old, still functional | device for a new, more energy-efficient device. Funny, as these are exactly the guys who want us to replace basicly all old-fashioned and matured tech by fancy new toys, just because it uses a few percent less power, even prohibit the good old light bulb, so the expensive "energy safer" lamps (w/ nice ingredients like hg) can be sold. Didn't follow the whole thread, but IMHO it was about less costs on an *individual* level (which is very different from large organizations), eg. time spent by hobbyists is valued $0, just as stuff which is already laying around anyways. OTOH, in poor african countries, some things that are cheap here can be very expensive, while other things might be very cheap there (eg. solar energie is pretty cheap there, once they have the solar cells, because they have much more sun). | If the new laptop is | ten percent more economical than the old one, it would have to be used | for almost 90 years, until it was worthwhile - from the point of view | of climate protection. Ah, I knew that 'climate' religion has to come up again. As it has to in political/religious institutions. | There are, of course, many good | reasons to buy a new computer. Energy saving is not part of it. [1] | (google translation) Of course. Planned obsolescense and just poor quality is a reason. (when old tech just doesn't work anymore - on purpose) Funny that especially "our" administration does *nothing* about the planned obsolescence and poor quality. Obviously, that wouldn't be in corporate interests. (yes, we've living in a fascist regime) --mtx ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 10:35:28 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > I may need to borrow it. Feel free ;) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Quoting Florian Zieboll (f.zieb...@web.de):
> Hallo Rick,
>
> this may be true from the consumer's point of view, but apparently, the
> energy needed to produce a new computer can exceed its lifetime savings
> by far. Quote from the German "Umweltbundesamt" (environmental agency):
This is certainly a concern worth taking seriously, so thank you.
> | The production of a laptop consumes so much energy that for energetic
> | reasons it is never worthwhile to exchange an old, still functional
> | device for a new, more energy-efficient device. If the new laptop is
> | ten percent more economical than the old one, it would have to be used
> | for almost 90 years, until it was worthwhile - from the point of view
> | of climate protection. Even if the new laptop - unrealistic - requires
> | 70% less power, it would have to be used for around 13 years, until it
> | has paid for itself energetically. There are, of course, many good
> | reasons to buy a new computer. Energy saving is not part of it. [1]
> | (google translation)
>
> Not sure, how up-to-date / backed this information is, especially for
> the trending SBCs - but I think that the environmental aspects of the
> production are a heavy argument for supporting older hardware.
Indeed, if one is public-spirited, one should remember that the
environmental costs of newly manufactured equipment also extend beyond
electricity the equipment will consume: There is also environmental
harm from the entire process of manufacture, distribution, and sale.
That having been said, my offhand guess is that in many cases one _can_
expect better than 70% less power from newer gear, on account of SSDs
replacing hard disks, 63.5mm-platter hard disks replacing 90mm ones,
fanless units replacing ones requiring many fans, and much better power
management at the hardware level.
But thank you for a useful perspective. And my thanks to the UBA for
its work. ('Für Mensch und Umwelt', indeed.)
> libre Grüße,
> Florian
What a lovely phrase! I may need to borrow it. Vielen Dank.
--
Cheers, The genius of you Americans is that you never make
Rick Moen clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves
r...@linuxmafia.com that make us wonder at the possibility that there may be
McQ! (4x80)something to them that we are missing. --Gamel Abdel Nasser
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 16:44:40 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > Current parts you get from electronish rubbish are some i5 models, or Core > Duo if your rubbish pool is that old. Remember, I live in Darkest Paraguay, our technorubbish is not all that advanced... Cheers, Ron. -- Spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve. -- John Wheeler -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 00:32:11 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > And, by the way, Steve Litt's scenario of Linux expansion in various > Third World countries using scrounged P4 machines is also cheering, > except for the bit about paying for the rather high amount of > electricity they draw, which makes them a poor deal compared to more > modern machines even if the latter cost more. Unless you own your own > hydroelectric or photovoltaic plant, electricity isn't free. Hallo Rick, this may be true from the consumer's point of view, but apparently, the energy needed to produce a new computer can exceed its lifetime savings by far. Quote from the German "Umweltbundesamt" (environmental agency): | The production of a laptop consumes so much energy that for energetic | reasons it is never worthwhile to exchange an old, still functional | device for a new, more energy-efficient device. If the new laptop is | ten percent more economical than the old one, it would have to be used | for almost 90 years, until it was worthwhile - from the point of view | of climate protection. Even if the new laptop - unrealistic - requires | 70% less power, it would have to be used for around 13 years, until it | has paid for itself energetically. There are, of course, many good | reasons to buy a new computer. Energy saving is not part of it. [1] | (google translation) Not sure, how up-to-date / backed this information is, especially for the trending SBCs - but I think that the environmental aspects of the production are a heavy argument for supporting older hardware. libre Grüße, Florian NB: I am aware that this thread's discussion originates from an opinion on Cinnamon DE: | On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 23:01:44 +0200 | Dragan FOSS wrote: | | > On 07/21/2017 09:02 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: | > > Cinnamon 3.0.x (only amd64) | > | > I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste | > of time and resources. [1] http://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/elektrogeraete/computer-pc-laptop#textpart-3 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 10:10:29AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 13:57:55 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > > > Restoring old gear is an expensive hobby. Poor kids in Africa can't afford > > that. > > Putting together working gear by assembling disparate parts you get from > electronic rubbish is free. > > I did it for a time for a school here in Paraguay, producing one working > machine out of the wrecks of three or four old PCs given to the school by > commercial businesses that had been upgrading their HW. > > And installing Linux (Mandrake 6.2 at the time) so the little dears could > not bugger the installed OS... Ie, it was in the last months of 1999. That gear was adequate for the time. It is not adequate anymore, both because it can't match current computing needs of unskilled users, and because of prohibitive costs to operate it. Current parts you get from electronish rubbish are some i5 models, or Core Duo if your rubbish pool is that old. Such machines are enough for most tasks. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 13:57:55 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > Restoring old gear is an expensive hobby. Poor kids in Africa can't afford > that. Putting together working gear by assembling disparate parts you get from electronic rubbish is free. I did it for a time for a school here in Paraguay, producing one working machine out of the wrecks of three or four old PCs given to the school by commercial businesses that had been upgrading their HW. And installing Linux (Mandrake 6.2 at the time) so the little dears could not bugger the installed OS... Cost: my time... Cheers, Ron. -- You can make it illegal, but you can't make it unpopular. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Sometimes it is a pity having to throw away still working but old hardware. I have two Pentium 4 procecessors one with a functional motherboard that I do not use anymore. The reasons for abandoning them are speed and electricity consumption. Today's Internet requires faster computers to be used properly with many sites mandating the use of script. Paying online using old hardware has become next to impossible and going in person to make payments is a time waster for most people. As some hinted out, using prohibitively power hungry, that is, old hardware, is not viable anymore. The long term electricity expenditure cannot justify using such hardware. I have a T4400 Acer Aspire laptop that now I almost seldom use. The reason is speed. Since most sites mandate the use of script, and I pay my bills online, it is not practical anymore to use it. Besides of technical reasons for boarding out hardware that still work there are other reasons like speed and power efficiency. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand the concepts underlying them. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 13:57:55 +0200, Adam wrote in message <20170723115755.sl7bqpxy6yuqy...@angband.pl>: > On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 01:37:04AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 01:12:52 +0200 > > Dragan FOSS wrote: > > > > Average yearly income per-capita in Sub-Saharan Africa is $2,041.00 > > per year: > > > > If somebody in Africa manages to cannibalize a few Pentiums, mix and > > match parts to produce a functional computer, and find a way to > > afford the 300 watts it costs to run it for an hour or so a week, > > such a person would be mighty thankful for a good 32 bit Linux. > > At this time, a semi-modern machine doesn't cost anything more, and > has an edge of drastically lower power and support costs, in addition > to being far more capable. > > Restoring old gear is an expensive hobby. Poor kids in Africa can't > afford that. And since they need computers for utilitarian reasons, > hobbies shouldn't be a priority. ..agreed, e.g. Raspberry Pi type hardware is far more useful, off grid they'll need batteries and solar panels or wind mills for 24/7 power. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 at 13:16:01 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 09:02:08AM +0200, Juergen Moebius wrote: >> Hi, this is nothing! >> >> processor: 0 >> vendor_id: GenuineIntel >> cpu family : 5 >> model: 4 >> model name : Pentium MMX >> stepping : 3 >> cpu MHz : 165.792 >> >> processor: 0 >> vendor_id: GenuineIntel >> cpu family : 5 >> model: 4 >> model name : Pentium MMX >> stepping : 4 >> cpu MHz : 200.459 > > You do realize support for Pentium MMX has been dropped in De??an a while > ago, right? Did you miss this piece of information? > server2:~ # cat /etc/slackware-version > Slackware 8.1.0 > server2:~ # uname –r > 2.4.19 Bye, Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 01:37:04AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 01:12:52 +0200 > Dragan FOSS wrote: > > Average yearly income per-capita in Sub-Saharan Africa is $2,041.00 per > year: > > If somebody in Africa manages to cannibalize a few Pentiums, mix and > match parts to produce a functional computer, and find a way to afford > the 300 watts it costs to run it for an hour or so a week, such a person > would be mighty thankful for a good 32 bit Linux. At this time, a semi-modern machine doesn't cost anything more, and has an edge of drastically lower power and support costs, in addition to being far more capable. Restoring old gear is an expensive hobby. Poor kids in Africa can't afford that. And since they need computers for utilitarian reasons, hobbies shouldn't be a priority. > Must be nice, living in the West, to assume the disposable income to > buy a new car every 15 years or buy a computer every 10 years, but > there are places where such things are scarce and competed over. When I was an university kid, one of my roommates bought a really cheap used car. He immediately had to pay six times that just to get it running, and ongoing maintenance wasn't pretty either. Now guess what would happen if he had chosen a car in a slightly better condition. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Rick Moen writes: Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is as popular as lame these days...) Why should Devuan do the same? IMO: Because of the year on the current calendar. An old colleague of mine, when I worked at a linux distributor, put it like this: "The good users are the ones who choose because is what they want. Advertising support for old hardware is looking for trouble. What you get from that is users whose hardware is too old or too halfbroken to run windows. They're a support drain, and they're always telling others how doesn't work." Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 09:02:08AM +0200, Juergen Moebius wrote: > Hi, this is nothing! > > processor : 0 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family: 5 > model : 4 > model name: Pentium MMX > stepping : 3 > cpu MHz : 165.792 > > processor : 0 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family: 5 > model : 4 > model name: Pentium MMX > stepping : 4 > cpu MHz : 200.459 You do realize support for Pentium MMX has been dropped in De??an a while ago, right? Thus, I hope that these machines are: 1. airgapped (no security support) 2. powered on only briefly, for a backup job (electricity costs) 3. not backing up anything important -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 11:56:58AM +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: > Adam Borowski [2017-07-23 00:01]: > > If the machine has >2GB ram, running a 32-bit kernel should be a crime. > > I run 32-bit Devuan on one Core2 machine. Why? I can't get Xerox' > proprietary printer driver for their Phaser 6010N color laser to work on > 64-bit. Several receipes on how to do this, none of them work. Printer drivers work in userspace, not in kernel. 64-bit x86 kernels can run i386 binaries just fine -- usually better than a 32-bit kernel would, as there's no mucking with inadequate address space. And on De??an, there's multiarch so you can mix-and-match binaries. I don't know much about printing (I don't own a printer nor have a reason to use one more than once per ~2 years), but AFAIK printer drivers are separate processes so there's no ABI problem whatsoever. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 20:03:32 -0700 Gregory Nowak wrote: > Guess in that case we should point that out also to the people who > still own and use historic cars from the last century for example. I still use when travelling (Email and Web browsing) a 2008 vintage EeePC, an the firewall for the house LAN is a Pentium II running IPCop. Is it a coincidence that my three cars are a 1997 Citroën Berlingo, a 1979 Mercedes W123 300D, and a 1971 Cotroën 2CV, not to mention a 1981 250ES MZ m/c ? Cheers, Ron. -- When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -- Richard Buckminster Fuller -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Adam Borowski [2017-07-23 00:01]: > What I'm talking about is running i386 on 64-bit-capable CPUs. You can > check that by ｢grep '^flags.*\bnx\b' /proc/cpuinfo｣ or checking the op-mode > field in what lscpu says. > > There's a long list of reasons why that's a bad idea, especially when kernel > is concerned; the only reason to the contrary is some memory saving in > pointer-heavy code. 32-bit code also sees almost no upstream testing > (at least on x86). > > If the machine has >2GB ram, running a 32-bit kernel should be a crime. I run 32-bit Devuan on one Core2 machine. Why? I can't get Xerox' proprietary printer driver for their Phaser 6010N color laser to work on 64-bit. Several receipes on how to do this, none of them work. Yes, I know I shouldn't buy printers for which there are no open drivers, but no, I didn't buy this printer. I got it for free, along with several toner cartridges. I'd rather use them up before I buy another printer. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
I think this is getting ridiculous. How did we get from XY was compiled for one architecture by someone who made XY available in his own repo to we should drop support for [random but common other architecture] for all of devuan? Devuan offers a sane alternative to debian without systemd, it is what debian should have been. Since most packages come from debian anyway, without any need to recompile them, there is no extra time or resources needed to support those on other architectures which are already supported by debian. And for the remaining packages which had to be repackaged, I strongly assume that most of them had architecture any or all specified in their debian control file, which means that the CI can build all architectures at once anyway, which means that repackaging them for multiple architectures doesn't constitute significantly more work then packaging them for one architecture. Considering all this, from my perspective, arguing that an architecture is obsolete or not used anyways is pointless since it doesn't improve anything, it doesn't free any time or resources, but it does harm any user of the architecture to be dropped, and it would harm devuan as a whole since it would result in inferior hardware support compared to debian. That said, that someone who provides his own repos and therefore can't use the devuan CI thing may not want or have the time to setup the infrastructure to cross compile his packages for every architecture is quiet understandable. When using someone elses repository, that not every architecture may be provided has to be expected. I don't see any problem here at all. However, there is always room for improvement, and since it appears to me that the problem isn't that the packages in question can't be compiled for other architectures, I would leave the following suggestion to the package maintainer and the devuan team for consideration: Just put the packages in experimental. This way, the CI can just compile it for all architectures, and everyone is happy again. Daniel Abrecht On 2017-07-21 21:01, Dragan FOSS wrote: > On 07/21/2017 09:02 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: >> Cinnamon 3.0.x (only amd64) > > I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of > time and resources. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sunday, 23-07-2017 um 09:55 Alessandro Selli wrote: > Do you really still use fax-machines in Germany? I thought in Europe only > Italians and Greeks were. In Germany many companies use fax even today. Especially craftsmen and property managers used fax for simple and fast communication. The Faxmachines I build have an "ISDN card" on ith with "capi20" kernel driver. Greetings, Juergen Moebius ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 at 09:55:32 +0200 Alessandro Selli wrote: >> They are over 20 years old and runs without Problems :-) > > And make the local retrocomputing club proud of their > accomplishments! :-) However, a real accomplishment would be running a current, LTS distro on them. ;-) Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sunday, 23-07-2017 um 09:32 Rick Moen wrote: > I commend this. At the same time, you would not use either of those for > a new deployment of any kind, would you? Certainly, you would not > expect any DE to run on them, let alone a modern DE Devuan is likely to > fully support in the foreseeable future. Of course I would not install any modern Linux on this old machines ;-) But they have "cult status" and showes how long an Linux machine can run and help save money and valuable raw materials! > And, by the way, Steve Litt's scenario of Linux expansion in various > Third World countries using scrounged P4 machines is also cheering, > except for the bit about paying for the rather high amount of > electricity they draw, which makes them a poor deal compared to more > modern machines even if the latter cost more. Unless you own your own > hydroelectric or photovoltaic plant, electricity isn't free. This I see difficult to you. The costs of electricy power is one part, the costs of purchase and service for new machines is the other. New machines haves an shorter livetime, this is fact. And the consumption of electrical power? This old machines I have described consumes only a litte energie of about 30 Watts per machine. Modern machines consumes more power I think ;-) And finally, a long life is good for the nature. Precious resources are used for a long time and less electronic waste is generated. But still there is in the MusikShop an big modern LinuxServer with Debian 7 on it. At the end of the year, Devuan Linux will be installed. > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul at 2017 07:46:52 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: [...] > And there are a whole bunch of SBC things which still use x86 > processors. Right, you can still buy *new* hardware based on x86 CPUs: http://www.compactpc.com.tw/product.aspx?act=detail&id=351 Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Il giorno Sun, 23 Jul 2017 09:02:08 +0200 Juergen Moebius ha scritto: > Hi, this is nothing! Well, you surely beat my oldies, I must admit! > actually in german city "Leipzig" this two machines runs in an MusicShop: > > 1. a little Faxmachine, running Slackware 8.1: Do you really still use fax-machines in Germany? I thought in Europe only Italians and Greeks were. > server2:~ # cat /etc/slackware-version > Slackware 8.1.0 Oh my! > server2:~ # uptime > 8:47am up 156 days, 23:21, 1 user, load average: 0.12, 0.05, 0.01 Jeez! > server2:~ # uname –r > 2.4.19 No, really? In the III millenium? > server2:~ # cat /proc/cpuinfo > processor : 0 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family: 5 > model : 4 > model name: Pentium MMX So, it's not only NASA still running vintage HW! :-) [...] > They are over 20 years old and runs without Problems :-) And make the local retrocomputing club proud of their accomplishments! :-) Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 at 22:06:30 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: [...] > And, if you bought your > unit around 2007, you _could_ instead have bought x86_64 as > future-proofing. I bought that PC second-hand (actually, assembled from mostly rummage parts). > On the matter that Adam mentioned about power draw (what the Yanks call > AC power, and the Brits call mains power): When my firm VA Linux > Systems was getting out of the hardware business because of the Dot-Com > market crash, I do recall something from that period: how disappointed was I when VA went out of the HW business before I could buy myself one of their machines! [...] > It needed the very carefully engineered cooling because the pair of > Athlon 760MPs put out tremendous amounts of heat, which of course the > operator also pays for in the shape of electric bills. Let's focus on the advantagges: during winter they allowed you to save on heating! :-) In summertime... well, in Italy one could put his pasta pot on top of the server and save on gas. > Intel followed > the Athlon's example (meaning, releasing CPUs that tremendously > increased power draw). Global warming was not as strong a topic as today. [...] > And, getting back to my point, your Northwood-core Pentium 4 with 3.40 > GHz clock speed has a TDP of 89 Watts -- because the entire P4 line and > several of its successors sucked power at an amazing rate relative to > prior Intel (and AMD) CPUs. PIV fans would brag it sucked so much /less/ power compared to the Itanium's 140W! :-O (or what was Itanium called then) > My Coppermine PIII has a TDP of 20.8 Watts. I was too lazy to switch that one on yesterday, but I do have one of those, too. Nice and cool. And much less prone at throwing up compilation-killer mce-events compared to the PIV. It's the last surviving of a batch of PIIIs I salvaged from my employer's cleanup years ago. It is the first machine I tested Devuan on and it's still running Jessie. [...] > My intended replacement, still under construction using Devuan, will > reduce power cost to a pittance: CompuLab Intense PC w/16GB RAM, > Celeron 847E 1.1 GHz dual-core, pair of mirrored SSDs on eSATA in > external enclosures. I'm not sure of the total draw yet, but think it > will be almost nothing -- thus even more cheap to run (not to mention > silent and ultra-cool). I intend to to something similar. I wanted to go for an ARM machine, however I experienced issues running Java-based applications on one such box (an Odroid U3 from hardkernel.com). Bye, and thank you for bringing up VA-era memories! :-) Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Quoting Juergen Moebius (moeb...@a-k-computer.de): [snip some details of some fine old machines] > They are over 20 years old and runs without Problems :-) I commend this. At the same time, you would not use either of those for a new deployment of any kind, would you? Certainly, you would not expect any DE to run on them, let alone a modern DE Devuan is likely to fully support in the foreseeable future. And, by the way, Steve Litt's scenario of Linux expansion in various Third World countries using scrounged P4 machines is also cheering, except for the bit about paying for the rather high amount of electricity they draw, which makes them a poor deal compared to more modern machines even if the latter cost more. Unless you own your own hydroelectric or photovoltaic plant, electricity isn't free. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Hi, this is nothing! On Sunday, den 23-07-2017 at 02:05PM Alessandro Selli wrot: > On 23/07/2017 at 00:51, Rick Moen wrote: > lscpu > Architecture:i686 > CPU op-mode(s): 32-bit > Byte Order: Little Endian > CPU(s): 2 > On-line CPU(s) list: 0,1 > Thread(s) per core: 2 > Core(s) per socket: 1 > Socket(s): 1 > Vendor ID: GenuineIntel > CPU family: 15 > Model: 2 > Model name: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz > Stepping:9 > CPU MHz: 3400.090 > BogoMIPS:6802.52 > Flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge > mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe pebs bts > cpuid cid xtpr actually in german city "Leipzig" this two machines runs in an MusicShop: 1. a little Faxmachine, running Slackware 8.1: server2:~ # cat /etc/slackware-version Slackware 8.1.0 server2:~ # uptime 8:47am up 156 days, 23:21, 1 user, load average: 0.12, 0.05, 0.01 server2:~ # uname –r 2.4.19 server2:~ # cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 5 model : 4 model name : Pentium MMX stepping: 3 cpu MHz : 165.792 fdiv_bug: no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug: yes coma_bug: no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 1 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr mce cx8 mmx bogomips: 330.95 server2:~ # cat /proc/meminfo total:used:free: shared: buffers: cached: Mem: 64192512 62242816 19496960 4747264 34402304 Swap: 82567168 8065024 74502144 MemTotal:62688 kB MemFree: 1904 kB MemShared: 0 kB Buffers: 4636 kB Cached: 30744 kB SwapCached: 2852 kB Active: 23324 kB Inactive:18624 kB HighTotal: 0 kB HighFree:0 kB LowTotal:62688 kB LowFree: 1904 kB SwapTotal: 80632 kB SwapFree:72756 kB 2. This is a little Backupserver, running Slackware 10.0 with external 1TB USB 2.0 2,5““ Drive: root@backup:~# cat /etc/slackware-version Slackware 10.0.0 root@backup:~# uptime 08:53:14 up 156 days, 23:40, 1 user, load average: 0.01, 0.00, 0.00 root@backup:~# cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 5 model : 4 model name : Pentium MMX stepping: 4 cpu MHz : 200.459 fdiv_bug: no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug: yes coma_bug: no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 1 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr mce cx8 mmx bogomips: 399.76 root@backup:~# cat /proc/meminfo total:used:free: shared: buffers: cached: Mem: 46907392 45604864 13025280 3145728 5894144 Swap: 256491520 3469312 253022208 MemTotal:45808 kB MemFree: 1272 kB MemShared: 0 kB Buffers: 3072 kB Cached: 4616 kB SwapCached: 1140 kB Active: 4468 kB Inactive: 5100 kB HighTotal: 0 kB HighFree:0 kB LowTotal:45808 kB LowFree: 1272 kB SwapTotal: 250480 kB SwapFree: 247092 kB root@backup:~# uname -r 2.4.28 They are over 20 years old and runs without Problems :-) Greetings, Juergen Moebius ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:29:36PM +0100, Vincent Bentley wrote: > Intel are not the only x86 cpu manufacturer. > > I use a lot of VIA Eden equipped devices (thin-clients) 32-bit, 1+ GHz, > 1GB RAM usually. They run fine on 12v batteries charged by solar, have > no problems being mounted in vehicles (land or marine) and are fully > featured with IDE/SATA and network boot ROMs unlike most ARM devices. > > Just to make another example, there are also a whole bunch of 32 bit Atom netbooks, which were sold up until 2010-2011. I personally used one of those as a primary machine for 2/3 years, and I still keep it around as a perfect "vacation" machine. And there are at least several hundred thousands (maybe more?) OLPC XO and clones out there, shipped to schools and children in developing countries (they had a declared max power consumption of 15W, BTW). I totally agree that we should probably replace all of them with newer and more powerful arm64 laptops, but I don't know whether a similar project is already in place. And there are a whole bunch of SBC things which still use x86 processors. All those machines can run for several more years with a light DE. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 01:12:52 +0200 Dragan FOSS wrote: > On 07/23/2017 12:57 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: > > And, as this thread goes, you're not going to run a bloated DE on > > such an underpowered machine, are you? > > Traditional Amish buggy is undoubtedly efficient and usable > transportation...for some people ;> You guys really don't get what KatolaZ was saying, do you? Average yearly income per-capita in Sub-Saharan Africa is $2,041.00 per year: http://global-growing.org/en/content/fact-7-about-three-quarters-african-population-live-less-2-half-population-less-125-day If somebody in Africa manages to cannibalize a few Pentiums, mix and match parts to produce a functional computer, and find a way to afford the 300 watts it costs to run it for an hour or so a week, such a person would be mighty thankful for a good 32 bit Linux. Must be nice, living in the West, to assume the disposable income to buy a new car every 15 years or buy a computer every 10 years, but there are places where such things are scarce and competed over. There are places in this world where an Amish buggy, let alone a 1992 Chevy Lumina, would be an unaffordable luxury, and I have a feeling the inhabitants of those places are what KatolaZ was talking about. SteveT Steve Litt July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Quoting Gregory Nowak (g...@gregn.net): > Guess in that case we should point that out also to the people who > still own and use historic cars from the last century for example. The people who still own and use historic cars do so in the knowledge that, over time, it tends to be an expensive hobby. Also (obviously), old cars bear their age a great deal better than do old computers. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > lscpu [...] > Model name: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz [...] > dmidecode --string bios-release-date > 12/21/2007 Thank you for that, Allesandro. Wikipedia's article on the Pentium 4 says this stepping was the _final_ Pentium 4 (if I'm reading that part of the entry correctly) and was released in _2004_, using the 130 nm Northwood core. (Reading further, I see that the Pentium That line's immediate successor was the Pentium D (2005), Pentium D Extreme Edition (2005), and Pentium 4 HT (2006) -- all x86_64-capable.) So, I of course take as valuable information that your BIOS date was from the end of 2007, but the CPU was being phased out in favour of x86_64 two-plus years before that. IMO, my points about 14-year-old gear being fragile specialty items also applies to 12- and 10-year old computers. And, if you bought your unit around 2007, you _could_ instead have bought x86_64 as future-proofing. On the matter that Adam mentioned about power draw (what the Yanks call AC power, and the Brits call mains power): When my firm VA Linux Systems was getting out of the hardware business because of the Dot-Com market crash, many of us employees stocked up on the flagship VA Linux Systems model 2230, a 2U rackmount unit w/Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard and PIII 'Coppermine' 800-1GHz CPU, because they were very good, cheap, and with bountiful parts. A few people who imagined themselves lucky acquired VA Linux's last product, model 1124, a 1U with Tyan Thunder K7 motherboard, dual Athlon 760MP CPUs, custom PSU, and carefully engineered (& patented) case cooling. It needed the very carefully engineered cooling because the pair of Athlon 760MPs put out tremendous amounts of heat, which of course the operator also pays for in the shape of electric bills. Intel followed the Athlon's example (meaning, releasing CPUs that tremendously increased power draw). For many years, you could not have 48 x 1U units in a standard server rack, with either AMD or Intel flagship CPUs, because the racks' PDUs could not deliver that much power. It took both firms many years to apply power-saving techniques from their mobile lines to the flagship ones. And, getting back to my point, your Northwood-core Pentium 4 with 3.40 GHz clock speed has a TDP of 89 Watts -- because the entire P4 line and several of its successors sucked power at an amazing rate relative to prior Intel (and AMD) CPUs. My Coppermine PIII has a TDP of 20.8 Watts. Now, sure, TDP = thermal design power is only ambiguously a measure of real power draw, as denotes the largest amount of heat output the CPU's related cooling systems will be called upon to dissipate when running a mix of real applications. But let's say it's a reasonable approximation of real power draw, and the only thing the industry so far consistently publishes. Echoing Adam's point, the cost of each CPU sucking, on a 24x7 basis for us server people, 4x the draw of a PIII really adds up, over time, and costs significant money. And that, in turn, is actually why I delayed retiring my spare Pentium III boxes and am still using one in 2017: Because the entire P4-class architecture sucked too much power, that I'd have to pay for in my electric bill. (Luckily, 2GB RAM has been enough for that application, and it can easily saturate the aDSL link its static IP lives on.) My intended replacement, still under construction using Devuan, will reduce power cost to a pittance: CompuLab Intense PC w/16GB RAM, Celeron 847E 1.1 GHz dual-core, pair of mirrored SSDs on eSATA in external enclosures. I'm not sure of the total draw yet, but think it will be almost nothing -- thus even more cheap to run (not to mention silent and ultra-cool). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 22/07/17 05:26 PM, Adam Borowski wrote: On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:50:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: you might probably want to have a look at: http://popcon.devuan.org/ Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite. Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms from 2008). In a small segment of geekdom, where a mobile phone or a tablet don't cut it, I believe there are quite a few Atom 32bit netbooks still in use. Intel fused off 64 bit Atoms making them 32 bit for the poor little suckers, the time frame on these extended through 2010. They were also limited to a maximum of 2 GB RAM. I personally use one for troubleshooting network installations and tuning my motorbike and while such hardware is no place for a bloated desktop environment, I would hate to find it completely orphaned by Devuan. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 03:51:54PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > > All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing > > their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation > > (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is > > as popular as lame these days...) > > > > Why should Devuan do the same? > > IMO: Because of the year on the current calendar. Guess in that case we should point that out also to the people who still own and use historic cars from the last century for example. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:26:56PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way > that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms > from 2008). For the record, I have two i386 boxes here from 2002, and they still work! Yes, both run devuan. I don't have popcon on them, but that will be changing shortly so as to perhaps give some food for thought to those who are so eager to get rid of 32-bit packages because they don't use them, and seem to think that therefore nobody else does either. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 23/07/2017 at 00:51, Rick Moen wrote: [...] > to the > best of my recollection everyone moved to a x86_64 flavour around > 2003-ish (or exited the market). So, I estimate that these computers > are at least 14 years old. lscpu Architecture:i686 CPU op-mode(s): 32-bit Byte Order: Little Endian CPU(s): 2 On-line CPU(s) list: 0,1 Thread(s) per core: 2 Core(s) per socket: 1 Socket(s): 1 Vendor ID: GenuineIntel CPU family: 15 Model: 2 Model name: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz Stepping:9 CPU MHz: 3400.090 BogoMIPS:6802.52 Flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe pebs bts cpuid cid xtpr dmidecode --string bios-release-date 12/21/2007 Bye, Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 03:51:54PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > > > Strange as it may sound to you, yes, there are still many users who > > are using i386 hw, and the only reasonable way for them to continue > > use those hw is by having Linux. > > While I'm sure this is true for some number of people, aren't these now > incredibly old computers? (I say this as someone still running his > flagship Internet server on an antique PIII, by the way.) > > [Long list of makers] everyone moved to a x86_64 flavour around > 2003-ish (or exited the market). So, I estimate that these computers > are at least 14 years old. > I mean, I did install Debian m68k on an antique (circa 1990) Apple > Macintosh IIci -- 25 MHz Motorola 68030 CPU, 4MB standard RAM expandable > using up to 16 x 4 MB 80ns 30-pin SIMMs, SCSI 40MB hard disk -- and > you can still do that in 2017, but... really. Friends asked me how it > ran Debian, and I replied 'Well, it walked Debian briskly.' Both are in the hobbyist-only niche. Preserving old gear for future generations is a noble goal, but running newest eye-candy on hardware that old is not an effective use of a distribution's limited resources. > > All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing > > their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation > > (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is > > as popular as lame these days...) If you want a motivation, measure the juice taken by that i386 box. One I have (well, amd64 but from that era) takes 222W under light load or 185W when totally idle. Its replacement takes 15W with two disks attached. One Watt-year is around $1, depending on country ($1.25 in Poland, $3.2 in Germany). Another box from that era, this time 32-bit only, with an "energy efficient" model of Pentium 4, takes 110W idle, 170W under moderate load. I guess those Atoms take a lot less than that, but are also far less capable. Any of these can't hold a candle even to a modern ARM SoC. Thus, it's not that financially-limited people can't afford to upgrade. They can't afford to _not_ upgrade. They won't want an ARM, but an used x86 can be had for peanuts or literally free. Plenty of acceptable machines get thrown away. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 07/23/2017 12:57 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: And, as this thread goes, you're not going to run a bloated DE on such an underpowered machine, are you? Traditional Amish buggy is undoubtedly efficient and usable transportation...for some people ;> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Traditional_Amish_buggy.jpg ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:29:36PM +0100, Vincent Bentley wrote: > Intel are not the only x86 cpu manufacturer. > > I use a lot of VIA Eden equipped devices (thin-clients) 32-bit, 1+ GHz, > 1GB RAM usually. They run fine on 12v batteries charged by solar, have > no problems being mounted in vehicles (land or marine) and are fully > featured with IDE/SATA and network boot ROMs unlike most ARM devices. If I read the specs correctly, all VIA Eden CPUs released 2006 or later are 64-bit capable. As far as I know, some motherboard chipsets that were 32-bit only lingered longer, but I'm not aware of any not-thoroughly-embedded x86 machines that have this flaw anywhere near recently. And, as this thread goes, you're not going to run a bloated DE on such an underpowered machine, are you? Especially that (at least in Jessie, no idea about more recent versions) parts of GNOME that Cinnamon uses require either a graphics card with some fancy specific capabilities, or very slow emulation in software. A weak machine + slow software emulation of 3D = oy vey gevalt. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > Strange as it may sound to you, yes, there are still many users who > are using i386 hw, and the only reasonable way for them to continue > use those hw is by having Linux. While I'm sure this is true for some number of people, aren't these now incredibly old computers? (I say this as someone still running his flagship Internet server on an antique PIII, by the way.) While you can point to various IA-32 CPUs produced over the years by Intel/Harris Corporation/Chips and Technologies, AMD/NexGen, VIA/Centaur/IDT, Transmeta, Cyrix/TI/SGS-Thomson/IBM/National Semiconductor, NEC, Siemens, Rise Technology, United Microelectronics Corporation/Meridian Semiconductor, UMC, DM&P Electronics/SiS, ZF Micro, Zet, RDC Semiconductors, ao486, ALi, Nvidia,and possibly others, to the best of my recollection everyone moved to a x86_64 flavour around 2003-ish (or exited the market). So, I estimate that these computers are at least 14 years old. I nurse along a totally obsolete 2001 rackmount beast myself, so I won't preach to others against doing so, but decade-plus-old computers are fragile and require specialty parts if it's ever necessary to repair them. Which, I would argue, is one of a number of reasons why this is fairly considered a specialty niche in 2017, that actually merits discouraging for new installations. I mean, I did install Debian m68k on an antique (circa 1990) Apple Macintosh IIci -- 25 MHz Motorola 68030 CPU, 4MB standard RAM expandable using up to 16 x 4 MB 80ns 30-pin SIMMs, SCSI 40MB hard disk -- and you can still do that in 2017, but... really. Friends asked me how it ran Debian, and I replied 'Well, it walked Debian briskly.' > All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing > their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation > (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is > as popular as lame these days...) > > Why should Devuan do the same? IMO: Because of the year on the current calendar. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Intel are not the only x86 cpu manufacturer. I use a lot of VIA Eden equipped devices (thin-clients) 32-bit, 1+ GHz, 1GB RAM usually. They run fine on 12v batteries charged by solar, have no problems being mounted in vehicles (land or marine) and are fully featured with IDE/SATA and network boot ROMs unlike most ARM devices. On 22/07/17 22:26, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:50:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: >> you might probably want to have a look at: >> >> http://popcon.devuan.org/ >> >> Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that >> between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently >> there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite. > > Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way > that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms > from 2008). > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:26:56PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: [cut] > > Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that > > between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently > > there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite. > > Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way > that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms > from 2008). > Ever thought about the possibility that some people out there might not have the same opportunity you have to update your hw every couple of years or less? :) Strange as it may sound to you, yes, there are still many users who are using i386 hw, and the only reasonable way for them to continue use those hw is by having Linux. All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is as popular as lame these days...) Why should Devuan do the same? HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > Juergen Moebius writes: > >No, not only Devuan. You forgot the great "Slackware", > >the mother of Linux distributions. > > If we're going to go into ancient history — Slackware was > (simplifying) a fork of SLS, but SLS wasn't the first either. Either > ABC or H. J. Lu's nameless microdistribution might be considered to > be the mother of linux distributions, IMO ABC is closest to that > epithet. The first to use the source+patches approach was called > Bogus Linux. FWIW, starting somewhere in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember for sure), I actually ftp'd from tsx-11.mit.edu and used H. J. Lu's root-boot floppy images that were available starting not long after Torvald's comp.os.minux announcement on Aug. 25, 1991 and first public release on Sept. 17, 1991 (or rather, a system painfully constructed by compilation based on Lu's images as a starting point) for something like a year, before I became aware of Slackware and, with considerable gratitude, switched to that. Before that, I'd not been aware of Softlanding Systems's SLS Linux[1], MCC Interim Linux[2] from Manchester Computing Centre, TAMU[3] (from Texas A&M University), DLD (Deutsche Linux-Distribution)[4], this ABC thing you mention[5], or even Yggdrasil Plug-and-Play Linux[6] even though Adam Richter & Bill Selmeier's firm was in the San Francisco Bay Area, where I live. Back in those days and until around '95 or so in my area, the community was much more fragmentary, and I don't feel at all sheepish about having heard the news about Freax^W Linux distributions only slowly even though if I'd been an avid reader of comp.os.*, I'd have gotten there sooner. But I can say, having done so, that building and maintaining a Linux system based on Lu's images was such a rather painful hair-shirt-wearing experience that I think you can call it a 'Linux distribution' only by stretching the modern concept. Slack (well, maybe Yggdrasil, actually) was the first that had _all_ of the essential traits, and was designed to be fully featured and reasonably maintainable within the expectations of the day.[7] (The standard view is that SLS, MCC, TAMU, DLD, and Yggdrasil, predating Slackware, were earlier qualifiers as 'Linux distributions' but that Lu's images weren't. It depends on your criteria.) [1] First released in May 1992. [2] First made available unofficially (by a third party) via ftp in November 1991, but then released Feb. 1992. [3] Distribution released in May 1992. [2] Distribution released some time in 1992. [5] I'm not doubting your citation, but for the record I've never heard of this, only of a couple of much-more-recent distrubtions of the same name that one finds while Web-searching. [6] Announced on Nov. 24, 1992 and released Dec. 8, 1992, but Richter & Selmeier made it available -- notably as the first live-CD distribution -- only for the then-significant price of US $99 for quite a long time, so few people tried it. [7] Slackware got its start as Patrick Volkerding's patchset for SLS Linux. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 05:39:44PM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:26:56 +0200 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way > > that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms > > from 2008). > > Dont we have stats on how many download the 386 version, against how many for > 64 ? Not sure if mirrors provide download stats; popcon is probably good enough. What I'm talking about is running i386 on 64-bit-capable CPUs. You can check that by ｢grep '^flags.*\bnx\b' /proc/cpuinfo｣ or checking the op-mode field in what lscpu says. There's a long list of reasons why that's a bad idea, especially when kernel is concerned; the only reason to the contrary is some memory saving in pointer-heavy code. 32-bit code also sees almost no upstream testing (at least on x86). If the machine has >2GB ram, running a 32-bit kernel should be a crime. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:26:56 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way > that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms > from 2008). Dont we have stats on how many download the 386 version, against how many for 64 ? Cheers, Ron. -- A "critic" is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased -- he hates all creative people equally. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:50:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > you might probably want to have a look at: > > http://popcon.devuan.org/ > > Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that > between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently > there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite. Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at. There's no way that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms from 2008). -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Juergen Moebius writes: No, not only Devuan. You forgot the great "Slackware", the mother of Linux distributions. If we're going to go into ancient history — Slackware was (simplifying) a fork of SLS, but SLS wasn't the first either. Either ABC or H. J. Lu's nameless microdistribution might be considered to be the mother of linux distributions, IMO ABC is closest to that epithet. The first to use the source+patches approach was called Bogus Linux. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 22:17:09 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message <20170722021709.ga8...@topoi.pooq.com>: > On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 08:14:43PM -0500, John Morris wrote: > > On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 16:25 -0500, Don Wright wrote: > > > Dragan FOSS wrote: > > > >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a > > > >waste of time and resources. > > > > > > > > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority > > > of computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or > > > iOS. > > > > I think you are joking, but it helps not to confuse the three big > > forks > > > > 1. Linux / GNU / X, this is the fork Devuan is on and few Devuan > > installs are on ARM. At this late date, there probably aren't many > > on x86_32 either. Which is why discussion of eliminating a big > > chunk or archive space and compile time will continue to recur > > until eventually nobody can muster a good argument for continuing. > > I'm still on a 32-bit Intel machine, and given an OS with the > fficiency of Devuan, it's perfectly capable of doing what I need. > Does this count as an x86_32? If so, I'd be happy with Devuan > keeping it for a long time yet. If not, I'd like to know what it > *does* count as. > > hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ uname -a > Linux notlookedfor 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.43-2 > (2017-04-30) i686 GNU/Linux > hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ > > I'm *thinking* of upgrading, butt until I can get a better laptop > that doesn't have significant vulnerabilities baked into the > *hardware*, I'd rather keep using what I've got. > > -- hendrik ..aaand, it will run nicely on any on these once they get the manpower they need to get restarted, which BTW is a nice way to grab those guys over here to Devuan. From https://www.debian.org/ports/: hurd-i386 32-bit PC (i386)The GNU Hurd is a new operating system being put together by the GNU group. Debian GNU/Hurd is going to be one (possibly the first) GNU OS. The current project is founded on the i386 architecture. in progress kfreebsd-amd64 64-bit PC (amd64) First officially released with Debian 6.0 as a technology preview and the first non-Linux port released by Debian. Port of the Debian GNU system to the kernel of FreeBSD. Is no longer part of the official release since Debian 8. in progress kfreebsd-i386 32-bit PC (i386)First officially released with Debian 6.0 as a technology preview and the first non-Linux port released by Debian. Port of the Debian GNU system to the kernel of FreeBSD. Is no longer part of the official release since Debian 8. in progress netbsd-i386 32-bit PC (i386)A port of the Debian operating system, complete with apt, dpkg, and GNU userland, to the NetBSD kernel. The port, never released, has been abandoned. dead x32 64-bit PC with 32-bit pointers X32 is an ABI for amd64/x86_64 CPUs using 32-bit pointers. The idea is to combine the larger register set of x86_64 with the smaller memory and cache footprint resulting from 32-bit pointers. in progress ..until they start putting systemd on the above, all we need to do, is mirror these archs just like any standard Debian mirror. A benefit we will gain, is source code insight into how software is modified to run on systemd while it remains viably available for e.g. hurd-i386. ..such sneaky systemd things will be visible to these developers in package source or in compiler source or both. All we need to do to win them over to us, is provide a viable alternative. ..once Debian does try put systemd on any of these archs, nothing is lost, and we'll have a much better starting point for our Devuan arch ports than we had for our first archs. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 08:14:43PM -0500, John Morris wrote: > On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 16:25 -0500, Don Wright wrote: > > Dragan FOSS wrote: > > >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of > > >time and resources. > > > > > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority of > > computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or iOS. > > I think you are joking, but it helps not to confuse the three big forks > > 1. Linux / GNU / X, this is the fork Devuan is on and few Devuan > installs are on ARM. At this late date, there probably aren't many on > x86_32 either. Which is why discussion of eliminating a big chunk or > archive space and compile time will continue to recur until eventually > nobody can muster a good argument for continuing. Hi John, you might probably want to have a look at: http://popcon.devuan.org/ Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Am Saturday, 22-07-2017 at 03:14PM John Morris wrote: > On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 16:25 -0500, Don Wright wrote: > 1. Linux / GNU / X, this is the fork Devuan No, not only Devuan. You forgot the great "Slackware", the mother of Linux distributions. It's number one for me! Unfortunately Slackware comes with small packages and you must build by yourself the things you need. so I use Devuan and in the past Debian Wheezy. Nevertheless I also build Slackware servers for business. Greetings, Juergen from Germany ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 08:14:43PM -0500, John Morris wrote: > On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 16:25 -0500, Don Wright wrote: > > Dragan FOSS wrote: > > >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of > > >time and resources. > > > > > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority of > > computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or iOS. > > I think you are joking, but it helps not to confuse the three big forks > > 1. Linux / GNU / X, this is the fork Devuan is on and few Devuan > installs are on ARM. At this late date, there probably aren't many on > x86_32 either. Which is why discussion of eliminating a big chunk or > archive space and compile time will continue to recur until eventually > nobody can muster a good argument for continuing. I'm still on a 32-bit Intel machine, and given an OS with the fficiency of Devuan, it's perfectly capable of doing what I need. Does this count as an x86_32? If so, I'd be happy with Devuan keeping it for a long time yet. If not, I'd like to know what it *does* count as. hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ uname -a Linux notlookedfor 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.43-2 (2017-04-30) i686 GNU/Linux hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ I'm *thinking* of upgrading, butt until I can get a better laptop that doesn't have significant vulnerabilities baked into the *hardware*, I'd rather keep using what I've got. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 16:25 -0500, Don Wright wrote: > Dragan FOSS wrote: > >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of > >time and resources. > > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority of > computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or iOS. I think you are joking, but it helps not to confuse the three big forks 1. Linux / GNU / X, this is the fork Devuan is on and few Devuan installs are on ARM. At this late date, there probably aren't many on x86_32 either. Which is why discussion of eliminating a big chunk or archive space and compile time will continue to recur until eventually nobody can muster a good argument for continuing. 2. Linux / Android, that is what is on most "smart" phones, "smart" TVs, tablets, etc. 3. Linux / RedHat, SystemD and the rest of RedHat OS, found on too many former LGX distros. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 04:25:55PM -0500, Don Wright wrote: > Dragan FOSS wrote: > >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of > >time and resources. > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority of > computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or iOS. And why exactly machines that run Android or iToy would be relevant here? The vast majority of computers that run Debian/Devuan are amd64, plus a non-negligible minority of armhf and arm64. The rest of architectures are worth keeping -- if you want to be an universal operating system -- but are of quite low priority for a first stab at packaging a desktop environment. i386 in particular needs to die. While I do respect people who keep historic machines working, 99.44% of current i386 users have it installed only because our websites suck and show or shown i386 as the primary download rather than something only slightly more relevant than m68k or alpha. _Real_ i386 machines have a single core (a few Pentium 4 models have HT but no NX; not sure about last wave of mobiles), came with less that a GB of memory and tend to take 150 watts for performance worse than what a cheap SoC delivers for 3 watts. Thus, people who actually have one of those would find a heavy-weight desktop environment a bad idea. Thus, if you have a machine that's capable of running Cinnamon at non-snail speeds, you're using the wrong arch. Please crossgrade. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Oh, and then there's *this* as a reason for supporting arm: https://notabug.org/libreboot/libreboot/issues/264 apparently someone is trying to reverse engineer arm without lima... which could be very advantageous to devuan and other free software distros... On 07/21/2017 05:25 PM, Don Wright wrote: > Dragan FOSS wrote: >> I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of >> time and resources. > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority of > computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or iOS. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
Dragan FOSS wrote: >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of >time and resources. As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority of computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or iOS. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 07/21/2017 09:02 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: Cinnamon 3.0.x (only amd64) I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a waste of time and resources. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
- Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE On 2017-07-21 13:30, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE On 2017-07-21 12:57, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: - Original Message - From: Antonio Volpicelli To: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 7:21 AM Subject: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE hi to all, I have build Cinnamon 3.0 for Jessie and MATE-1.18 for Ascii, If anyone wants to try them just install from the usual external repo. If there is something wrong, send me an email/comment on my blog/explain the problem on irc channel (#devuan or #devuan-dev). Remember this packages are experimental What is the repository link? Regards -- Ismael You'll find it here: https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list Of course you could also put it in /etc/apt/sources.list if you prefer golinux I just downloaded it locally to the repository: deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan experimental main And I have not downloaded any file mate or cinnanmon The script I used is the following: [cut] - Sorry I just supplied the info for the repo mentioned. From this - https://git.devuan.org/AntoFox - it looks like you might find them in jessie-proposed. As per this post on #devuan: Cinnamon 3.0.x (only amd64) is in jessie-backports on hezeh.org you might also want to poke around http://hezeh.org/the-hezeh-repository/ #devuan logs discussing cinnamon are around here: https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2017-01-21/?msg=79738856&page=2 golinux Now I've looked at the repository and I see packages for 32 bit http://hezeh.org/packages/?dir=pool/main/c/cinnamon My system is 32 bit, anyway if I can not test cinnamon test mate 1.18 on ascii 32 bit Thanks for the link -- Ismael Devuan User : http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 2017-07-21 13:30, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE On 2017-07-21 12:57, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: - Original Message - From: Antonio Volpicelli To: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 7:21 AM Subject: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE hi to all, I have build Cinnamon 3.0 for Jessie and MATE-1.18 for Ascii, If anyone wants to try them just install from the usual external repo. If there is something wrong, send me an email/comment on my blog/explain the problem on irc channel (#devuan or #devuan-dev). Remember this packages are experimental What is the repository link? Regards -- Ismael You'll find it here: https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list Of course you could also put it in /etc/apt/sources.list if you prefer golinux I just downloaded it locally to the repository: deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan experimental main And I have not downloaded any file mate or cinnanmon The script I used is the following: [cut] - Sorry I just supplied the info for the repo mentioned. From this - https://git.devuan.org/AntoFox - it looks like you might find them in jessie-proposed. As per this post on #devuan: Cinnamon 3.0.x (only amd64) is in jessie-backports on hezeh.org you might also want to poke around http://hezeh.org/the-hezeh-repository/ #devuan logs discussing cinnamon are around here: https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2017-01-21/?msg=79738856&page=2 golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
- Original Message -
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 2017-07-21 12:57, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote:
- Original Message - From: Antonio Volpicelli
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 7:21 AM
Subject: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
hi to all,
I have build Cinnamon 3.0 for Jessie and MATE-1.18 for Ascii,
If anyone wants to try them just install from the usual external repo.
If there is something wrong, send me an email/comment on my
blog/explain the problem
on irc channel (#devuan or #devuan-dev).
Remember this packages are experimental
What is the repository link?
Regards
--
Ismael
You'll find it here:
https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list
Of course you could also put it in /etc/apt/sources.list if you prefer
golinux
I just downloaded it locally to the repository:
deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan experimental main
And I have not downloaded any file mate or cinnanmon
The script I used is the following:
#!/bin/sh
if pidof -x $(basename $0) > /dev/null; then
for p in $(pidof -x $(basename $0)); do
if [ $p -ne $$ ]; then
exit
fi
done
fi
ARQUITECTURA=i386,amd64
METODO=http
RAMA=experimental
HOST=auto.mirror.devuan.org
DIR_MIRROR=/mnt/datos/sistemas/linux/devuan/experimental
SECCIONES=main
echo "="
echo "Actualizando los repositorios DEVUAN 'experimental'; main"
echo "="
echo ""
debmirror -a ${ARQUITECTURA} \
-s ${SECCIONES} \
-h ${HOST}/devuan \
-d ${RAMA} -r / --progress \
-e
${METODO} --postcleanup --ignore-small-errors --ignore-missing-release --ignore-release-gpg
--nosource --allow-dist-rename \
--diff=none \
${DIR_MIRROR}
Best Regards
--
Ismael
Devuan User : http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan
___
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
On 2017-07-21 12:57, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: - Original Message - From: Antonio Volpicelli To: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 7:21 AM Subject: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE hi to all, I have build Cinnamon 3.0 for Jessie and MATE-1.18 for Ascii, If anyone wants to try them just install from the usual external repo. If there is something wrong, send me an email/comment on my blog/explain the problem on irc channel (#devuan or #devuan-dev). Remember this packages are experimental What is the repository link? Regards -- Ismael You'll find it here: https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list Of course you could also put it in /etc/apt/sources.list if you prefer golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE
- Original Message - From: Antonio Volpicelli To: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 7:21 AM Subject: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE hi to all, I have build Cinnamon 3.0 for Jessie and MATE-1.18 for Ascii, If anyone wants to try them just install from the usual external repo. If there is something wrong, send me an email/comment on my blog/explain the problem on irc channel (#devuan or #devuan-dev). Remember this packages are experimental What is the repository link? Regards -- Ismael Devuan User : http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
