Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Fri, 22 May 2020 21:41:17 -0400 - Steve Litt : > > Trace out, please, the mechanism for how > > specifically that worked, according to you. > > 1. Redhat complexifies Linux. > > 2. People have trouble adminning the new Linux and finding folks >capable of adminning the new Linux. > > 3. People turn to Redhat for training, consultancy, and certs. Indeed. In the past, many IBM hardware was used in many farms (servers, nas, tape libraries etc.), which required optimized systems, configurations and drivers as well as considerable skills and knowledge from system administrators. And paying for the RH subscription (priority in getting fixes and patches, knowledge base etc) was the rule. And many more subscriptions, much more financial value... Now it seems to me that things have changed a bit (new strong competitors, cloud, saas, etc) and RH needs to maintain, in one way or another, the position it has held. And, it seems to me, it is trying to do it in a similar way: unnecessary complexity, very rapid version changes, problematic analysis and debugging etc, which means training, consultancy, and certs, which means financial value... Regards -- al3xu5 Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions. Public GPG/PGP key ID: 4096 bit RSA key F94CFE23 Fingerprint: 59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190 E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23 pgp4IoesEeT1W.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Fri, 22 May 2020 01:42:46 -0700 Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > C'mon, Didier. Explain please how adoption of systemd in RHEL and > CentOS either gave RHAT a superior competitive market position > relative to other market-relevant Linux distro companies It didn't have to. Redhat didn't give a dang whether their complexification of Linux also helped other Linux companies. The main thing is it helped them sell more training, consultation, and certs. > or improved > RHAT's financial strength. It helped them sell more training, consultation, and certs. To the extent that Linux was easy and lots of people knew their way around it, no reason for RH customers to buy training, consultation, and certs. How many automotive repair education companies are there? How many bicycle repair education companies. > Trace out, please, the mechanism for how > specifically that worked, according to you. 1. Redhat complexifies Linux. 2. People have trouble adminning the new Linux and finding folks capable of adminning the new Linux. 3. People turn to Redhat for training, consultancy, and certs. > (Please don't forget that > the codebase in question is open source, ergo you're going to have a > very difficult time asserting proprietary advantage, if that's what > you're thinking.) Ahh, this is where the rubber meets the road. How does one monopolize Open Source, which anybody can copy and change? The answer is by insane cash infusion into: 1) Propaganda, sales, marketing 2) Paying a staff of at least 6 to keep Linux changing faster than unpaid volunteers could back out the poison. > > I stand ready to check and verify your financial analysis. I sold my RH stock about 10 years ago and hence am not privy to their financial statements. Nor am I a good enough accountant to analyze their financial statements. But the following are irrefutable: 1) RH made Linux more complex 2) RH went on a big marketing campaign to facilitate acceptance of systemd. 3) RH paid programmers year after year to expand and debug systemd faster than unpaid programmers, who needed to spend most of their time at their job, could undo the damage. 4) RH sells consultation to "help" with the new, complexified Linux, to train employees how to deal with the new, complexified Linux, and certs to assert competency in the new, complexified Linux. 5) RH doesn't give away the training, consultation and certs for free. 6) Therefore RH profits from their complexification of Linux. > > Ideological handwaves are not an answer to the question posed. Agreed. I prefer follow the money tiptoes. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 22/05/2020 à 10:42, Rick Moen via Dng a écrit : C'mon, Didier. Explain please how adoption of systemd in RHEL and CentOS either gave RHAT a superior competitive market position relative This is a domain in which I haven't any expertise, by chance it was not my point. First, let's not confuse intention and result. Second, no doubt RH strategy is more diverse than only forcing Systemd on Linux users. But either they lie or complexity is part of their buzyness model ( not their "plot" (~: ) and systemd diffuses complexity in all parts of the OS and is under the control or RH. I know you disagree but I think qualifying this reasoning of conspirationism is an error. I'll stop with this thread because we don't make progress; please Rick, don't consider me impolite because of that. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Hi, Rick Moen via Dng writes: > Quoting Joel Roth via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > >> While it may be tiresome to some, I think it can be valuable >> to occasionally revisit the reasons for Devuan's existence. > > Distinguo: > > The reasons for Devuan's existence involve avoiding getting dragged > along by Debian Project's poor decision-making onto systemd. I'm not > aware of grandiose conspiracy theories about North Carolina corporations > having been either required or useful. > > -- > Cheers, "It's not worth doing something unless someone, > Rick Moen somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing > it." > r...@linuxmafia.com -- Terry Pratchett > McQ! (4x80) I found the quote in Rick's signature rather, eh, "on topic", I guess. Doesn't this thread kind-a make working on systemd something worthwhile? Wouldn't we be better off burying the thing and get on without? Not just in Devuan but also on the list? Just a thought, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Fri, 22 May 2020 01:42:46 -0700 - Rick Moen : > C'mon, Didier. Explain please how adoption of systemd in RHEL and > CentOS either gave RHAT a superior competitive market position relative > to other market-relevant Linux distro companies or improved RHAT's > financial strength. Trace out, please, the mechanism for how > specifically that worked, according to you. (Please don't forget that > the codebase in question is open source, ergo you're going to have a > very difficult time asserting proprietary advantage, if that's what > you're thinking.) > > I stand ready to check and verify your financial analysis. > > Ideological handwaves are not an answer to the question posed. Sorry for the intrusion ... But why not the opposite? Why don't you explain why RH invested and is investing in efforts, advocacy and money to develop something (systemd) that was not necessary, and to "convince" everyone to use it? Why don't you prove that this has nothing to do with finding a dominant market position, and that it has nothing to do with direct and indirect economic benefits for RH itself in favor of "investors" and "sponsons" more or less obvious than RH? Why don't you show that all this happens only because RH wants simply to do good for the humanity or for - I don't know what - other positive reasons and/or ethical pushes? Why don't you demonstrate all this objectively and on a non-ideological basis (including, if you wish, possibly economic and progress ideologies)? Regards -- al3xu5 Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions. Public GPG/PGP key ID: 4096 bit RSA key F94CFE23 Fingerprint: 59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190 E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23 pgpZwJO3ffW_J.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 22 May 01:42:46 -0700 Rick Moen via Dng scripsit: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > > Well, *they* claimed their model was to make money out of > > complexity, as Steve reported. It's not a suputation, it's an > > official statement. Therefore no idea of a conspiracy from Steve. > > I note without special objection that you aren't addressing even > _remotely_ addressing the question. > > C'mon, Didier. Explain please how adoption of systemd in RHEL and > CentOS either gave RHAT a superior competitive market position relative > to other market-relevant Linux distro companies or improved RHAT's > financial strength. Trace out, please, the mechanism for how > specifically that worked, according to you. (Please don't forget that > the codebase in question is open source, ergo you're going to have a > very difficult time asserting proprietary advantage, if that's what > you're thinking.) "Pleas tell me how this particular nail helps to keep the cabin intact." That's devide, one cannot give a valid answer. But you can take a look at goverment tenders. e.g. Austria: RH is specificly asked for, not Linux. Guess why ... Nik > > I stand ready to check and verify your financial analysis. > > Ideological handwaves are not an answer to the question posed. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Well, *they* claimed their model was to make money out of > complexity, as Steve reported. It's not a suputation, it's an > official statement. Therefore no idea of a conspiracy from Steve. I note without special objection that you aren't addressing even _remotely_ addressing the question. C'mon, Didier. Explain please how adoption of systemd in RHEL and CentOS either gave RHAT a superior competitive market position relative to other market-relevant Linux distro companies or improved RHAT's financial strength. Trace out, please, the mechanism for how specifically that worked, according to you. (Please don't forget that the codebase in question is open source, ergo you're going to have a very difficult time asserting proprietary advantage, if that's what you're thinking.) I stand ready to check and verify your financial analysis. Ideological handwaves are not an answer to the question posed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Joel Roth via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > While it may be tiresome to some, I think it can be valuable > to occasionally revisit the reasons for Devuan's existence. Distinguo: The reasons for Devuan's existence involve avoiding getting dragged along by Debian Project's poor decision-making onto systemd. I'm not aware of grandiose conspiracy theories about North Carolina corporations having been either required or useful. -- Cheers, "It's not worth doing something unless someone, Rick Moen somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." r...@linuxmafia.com -- Terry Pratchett McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 22/05/2020 à 10:11, Didier Kryn a écrit : I assume they do what they claimed, and actually Systemd is well in line with it. Then I try to imagine what can result from that, because the result of human actions is not always what they expected. Already they have been bought by Oracle - preventing them from being bought by Microsoft. What next? Sorry, they have been bought bu IBM. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 21/05/2020 à 22:24, Rick Moen via Dng a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. And, in the matter at hand, RHAT's underwriting of Mr. Poettering's salary and acceptance of his codebase for the past decade has gained it a better market position and/or improved financial strength _how_, exactly? Well, *they* claimed their model was to make money out of complexity, as Steve reported. It's not a suputation, it's an official statement. Therefore no idea of a conspiracy from Steve. I assume they do what they claimed, and actually Systemd is well in line with it. Then I try to imagine what can result from that, because the result of human actions is not always what they expected. Already they have been bought by Oracle - preventing them from being bought by Microsoft. What next? I, personnaly, do not believe "The year of the Linux Desktop" will be "The year of Gnome" or "The year of Freedesktop"; I believe those will never happen. I think it will be "The year of Windows-Systemd-Linux". I don't know the future, of course, but this is my guess. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:43:06AM +0100, g4sra via Dng wrote: > Why are we (DNG mailing list) going over this same old same old again ? I was probably the firestarter in this case. While it may be tiresome to some, I think it can be valuable to occasionally revisit the reasons for Devuan's existence. cheers -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting g4sra via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > Um, is this what you were referring to ? > https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-closes-landmark-acquisition-red-hat-34-billion-defines-open-hybrid-cloud-future Oh, _do_ go on, sir. Sadly, I'm guessing you actually have no plan to flesh out the mechanics of how RHAT, with or without IBM acquisition, would have stood over this past decade to gain a better competitive market position relative to other market-involved Linux distributions and/or improved financial strength from involvement with (open source) systemd development. Because that is pretty much conspiratorial drivel with only confused and non-process thinking behind it. Of course, you aren't Didier Kryn, the person I asked. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On 21/05/2020 21:24, Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > >> When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or >> its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is >> legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. > > And, in the matter at hand, RHAT's underwriting of Mr. Poettering's salary > and acceptance of his codebase for the past decade has gained it a > better market position and/or improved financial strength _how_, exactly? Um, is this what you were referring to ? https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-closes-landmark-acquisition-red-hat-34-billion-defines-open-hybrid-cloud-future > > Take your time explaining. Having passed the Certified Public > Accountant exam back in the day, I am pretty sure I'll be able cope with > any financial analytics you adduce. And I'm modestly familiar with > Linux firms on account of, y'know, employment in them. (RHAT is one > of the relative few where I've never worked.) > Why are we (DNG mailing list) going over this same old same old again ? I haven't bothered searching, as I don't want to wade through all the hits... On second thoughts.. keep it up guys (and gals) this may be a cure to my insomnia. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On 2020-05-20 18:45, Steve Litt wrote: > It really is just that simple. There's no need to add anything to > accommodate badly behaved init system authors. I wanted to add: 5. reaping orphan processes when they die but I had the good sense to read the wikipedia article "Orphan process" first, and it seems that is no longer necessarily true: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/250153/what-is-a-subreaper-process -- Ian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or > its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is > legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. And, in the matter at hand, RHAT's underwriting of Mr. Poettering's salary and acceptance of his codebase for the past decade has gained it a better market position and/or improved financial strength _how_, exactly? Take your time explaining. Having passed the Certified Public Accountant exam back in the day, I am pretty sure I'll be able cope with any financial analytics you adduce. And I'm modestly familiar with Linux firms on account of, y'know, employment in them. (RHAT is one of the relative few where I've never worked.) -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, r...@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting dal (d...@chalmers.se): > would you please cease using negatively charged buzzwords, like > "conspiracy theories" It's not necessarily derogation to use that and similar phrases: It's description. To quote Richard Hostadter's ground-breaking 1964 article: Nothing really prevents a sound program or demand from being advocated in the paranoid style. Style has more to do with the way in which ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of their content. Nothing prevents such theorising from being utimately found to be well-founded, at least in theory. It's just an odd and recurring style of thinking and expression that appeals to some people in every era, because it reduces complex reality to a simple, orderly, centrally administered plan. Probably unlike you, I'm an American, and so I've been living around a minority population of paranoid conspiracy people all my life. I don't dislike them necessarily. I just find them odd and distinctive. > while your counterpart is talking about existing legitimate (good or > bad but legitimate) business interests and motivations which are _not_ > hidden at all. ...and drawing non-sequitur conclusions from that. > Also, in my humble opinion, the following is a rude ad-hominem > pseudo-argument: Again, it's simple observation. Steve, demonstrably, grossly misunderstands the operation of civil litigation. That doesn't make him a bad person. _Most_ people grossly misunderstand legal matters -- albeit most have the common sense to not make unsupportable claims on that subject on worldwide mailing lists. Oh, and that's not a humble opinion. ;-> Please see also: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-debate2 (It is not the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem to assert that something someone said was grossly mistaken. You should probably look up what the term actually means.) Oh, and: > Rick, Hmm, if we're going to be on a first-name basis, it would be more appropriate for you to include your own name, and not just take personal potshots at others from behind cover of an Internet pseudonym. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 21/05/2020 à 11:39, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit : When you take a look at "government media" in EU and Austria in particular you will find that there's a bashing of people not conforming with mainstream media. Narrative goes "you do not love your goverment, you think there's a hidden agenda, so you belive in UFOs which proofs you are right winged". You might think of this as a conspiracy on it's own, even when you find out that Boston Consulting runs thinktank of Kurz ... which is definitly a proof that I'm wearing a tinfoil head ... I'm absolutely sure there's a semi-hidden agenda in the EU and in my own country. It is not explicitely hidden, but the media and the politicians neither display nor discuss it, which let it ignored by most the people. You might get hints by reading the economic press, in which antisocial and antidemocratic plots are discussed shamelessly. What reassures me is that the fraction of idiots amongst the conspirators is not smaller than their fraction in the general population, and therefore they make big mistakes (~: Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
If LP doesn't see the obvious benefit of making systemd optional, I
can't see that he'd go to the trouble of creating a plug-and-play setup
to allow alternatives to systemd to get in on the act. (Would a dictator
suggest the tryout of other political systems, to see how they stacked
up against autocracy?)
I think that the thing that I found tantalising was the idea of sniffing
what systemd tried to do, and then deciding whether or not to do it, and
what responses to send back to systemd. I had a mental image of a
convicted gangster directing the mob from his or her prison cell -
he/she can give out the instructions, but is entirely dependent on what
feedback is relayed from outside the jail. ("The Taking of Pelham 123" -
they're trying to get the money to the subway station before any more
hostages get shot, and aren't going to make it. In a flash of
inspiration, Garber, the train dispatcher, realises that the crooks have
no way of knowing what's happening on the surface, so tells them the
money's arrived before it actually does).
One possible real benefit of a glue/abstraction/jail layer did occur to
me. Eventually, it would itself become an init system, with a
distillation of (hopefully) the best bits of all the init systems which
had used it.
I totally agree re. PID1 and the need for simplicity. Maybe I should
just get out more (eventually, anyway ;) )
On Wed, 2020-05-20 at 18:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 19 May 2020 10:29:02 +0100
> Peter Duffy wrote:
>
> > Apologies for following up on my own post - just an afterthought.
> >
> > When I originally encountered systemd, the word was that it was so
> > pervasive that it couldn't be removed (obviously, now we know
> > different ;) )
> >
> > Given the alleged non-optionality of systemd, I started to wonder
> > about some kind of an init system wrapper (or even jail) - an
> > abstraction layer which would sit between the init subsystem and the
> > main system, and sanitise and homogenise interactions between the
> > two; init systems, including systemd, could be plugged and unplugged
> > into the top surface as desired; the abstraction layer would manage
> > commands and responses (including lying to the init subsystem if the
> > latter tried to do something dangerous or antisocial).
>
> Oh please don't suggest this: Poettering might do it.
>
> The job of an init system (not systemd, that's a software analogy of
> those old electronic circuits encased in epoxy so nobody could reverse
> engineer them) is to:
>
> 1) Run as PID1, listening for certain
>
> 2) PID1 forks off early boot stuff to mount, unencrypt, construct
> devices, set up the network, and the like.
>
> 3) PID1 forks off a daemon handler. The best daemon handlers are, in my
> opinion, djb style process supervisors like daemontools, runit and
> s6.
>
> 4) Upon receipt of a certain signal, PID1 forks or execs the shutdown
> script.
>
> It really is just that simple. There's no need to add anything to
> accommodate badly behaved init system authors.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
> of the Successful Technologist
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 21 May 11:30:31 +0200 Didier Kryn scripsit: > Le 21/05/2020 à 02:05, Steve Litt a écrit : > > Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > > > >> conspiracy hypothesis. > > Conspiracies happen. Not every event is brought forth by a single > > person. I remember a time when scads of us Linux enthusiasts conspired > > to depose Microsoft. "Conspiracy theory" is not an insult, regardless > > of how people use the phrase. > > > I bet conspiracies happen all the time. Many people spend time > conspiring. But very few conspirations succeed or even have a little > effect. But it isn't the case here. When you take a look at "government media" in EU and Austria in particular you will find that there's a bashing of people not conforming with mainstream media. Narrative goes "you do not love your goverment, you think there's a hidden agenda, so you belive in UFOs which proofs you are right winged". You might think of this as a conspiracy on it's own, even when you find out that Boston Consulting runs thinktank of Kurz ... which is definitly a proof that I'm wearing a tinfoil head ... Nik > > When a company takes action to increase its share of the market > and/or its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is > legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. > Discussing the effect and the cause of these actions does not mean we > consider it a conspiracy. One of the characters of a conspiracy is to be > secret. In the case of RedHat, it isn't, they have stated it publicly. > > Didier > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 21/05/2020 à 02:05, Steve Litt a écrit : Rick Moen via Dng wrote: conspiracy hypothesis. Conspiracies happen. Not every event is brought forth by a single person. I remember a time when scads of us Linux enthusiasts conspired to depose Microsoft. "Conspiracy theory" is not an insult, regardless of how people use the phrase. I bet conspiracies happen all the time. Many people spend time conspiring. But very few conspirations succeed or even have a little effect. But it isn't the case here. When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. Discussing the effect and the cause of these actions does not mean we consider it a conspiracy. One of the characters of a conspiracy is to be secret. In the case of RedHat, it isn't, they have stated it publicly. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Rick, would you please cease using negatively charged buzzwords, like "conspiracy theories" while your counterpart is talking about existing legitimate (good or bad but legitimate) business interests and motivations which are _not_ hidden at all. Also, in my humble opinion, the following is a rude ad-hominem pseudo-argument: -Original Message- > From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Rick Moen via Dng > Sent: den 21 maj 2020 06:07 > Oh, right: > You don't actually understand civil litigation at all. /D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > Steve's is a classic non-testable paranoid > > It would be testable if we could put on the witness stand under oath > somebody who attended the meetings that decided to push systemd. I mean, of course, testable in the real world. Meanwhile, a skeptical observer would note at least two serious problems with your ad-hoc conspiracy hypothesis: (1) Over a decade, exactly zero departed Red Hat employees have spilled the beans on such an alleged conspiracy. (Threatening ex-employees with litigation over violating their employment confidentiality agreements doesn't actually work very well, especially given robust means of publishing corporate details without personal attribution.) (2) You didn't bother to tell a credible story about RHAT revenue, etc., i.e., how your alleged conspiracy makes non-fantasy business sense. RHAT/IBM's business model has been an open book since August 1999, when RHAT went public. Since then, it's been pretty obvious why they did what they did. When I shave the post-2010 Poettering history using Occam's Razor, I find that the parsimonious answer to why they adopted in RHEL and CentOS his system glue to be super-obvious: It's partly about their move into container-oriented cloud computing, e.g., his systemd code's utility as a cgroups manager. Among other things, IBM/RHAT famously haven't given a tinker's damn about 'Linux desktop computing' since the late 1990s, by contrast. > Conspiracies happen. So do untestable conspiracy theories. ;-> > Now here's a fact. If Redhat were on trial for foisting systemd upon the > world, you'd better believe the prosecutor would bring up the link I > proffered earlier in this thread as evidence of motive. I'm curious whether such a legal action would get dismissed _first_ for lack of standing, or for failure to state a cause of action. Oh, right: You don't actually understand civil litigation at all. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Tue, 19 May 2020 12:03:20 -0700 Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > > Presumably Steve Litt's point is that Red Hat has to make the > > internals complex so that there's complexity to shield the costomer > > from. > > Steve's is a classic non-testable paranoid It would be testable if we could put on the witness stand under oath somebody who attended the meetings that decided to push systemd. > conspiracy hypothesis. Conspiracies happen. Not every event is brought forth by a single person. I remember a time when scads of us Linux enthusiasts conspired to depose Microsoft. "Conspiracy theory" is not an insult, regardless of how people use the phrase. > These have had fans on a recurring basis in (among other places) > Steve's native USA. Let's not confuse a theory that something is caused by several people, acting together, with people spouting fact-averse, science-hostile, logically incorrect kiddiebabble. Now here's a fact. If Redhat were on trial for foisting systemd upon the world, you'd better believe the prosecutor would bring up the link I proffered earlier in this thread as evidence of motive. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Tue, 19 May 2020 07:32:24 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > Presumably Steve Litt's point is that Red Hat has to make the > internals complex so that there's complexity to shield the costomer > from. That's one of my two points. The other point is a complexified Linux makes their education and certs more desired and valuable. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Tue, 19 May 2020 10:29:02 +0100 Peter Duffy wrote: > Apologies for following up on my own post - just an afterthought. > > When I originally encountered systemd, the word was that it was so > pervasive that it couldn't be removed (obviously, now we know > different ;) ) > > Given the alleged non-optionality of systemd, I started to wonder > about some kind of an init system wrapper (or even jail) - an > abstraction layer which would sit between the init subsystem and the > main system, and sanitise and homogenise interactions between the > two; init systems, including systemd, could be plugged and unplugged > into the top surface as desired; the abstraction layer would manage > commands and responses (including lying to the init subsystem if the > latter tried to do something dangerous or antisocial). Oh please don't suggest this: Poettering might do it. The job of an init system (not systemd, that's a software analogy of those old electronic circuits encased in epoxy so nobody could reverse engineer them) is to: 1) Run as PID1, listening for certain 2) PID1 forks off early boot stuff to mount, unencrypt, construct devices, set up the network, and the like. 3) PID1 forks off a daemon handler. The best daemon handlers are, in my opinion, djb style process supervisors like daemontools, runit and s6. 4) Upon receipt of a certain signal, PID1 forks or execs the shutdown script. It really is just that simple. There's no need to add anything to accommodate badly behaved init system authors. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Mon, 18 May 2020 21:39:11 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > I eschew Occam's Razor in favor of Litt's Razor, which can be > paraphrased "Follow the money." See also the maxim of Cassius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono "to whom is it a benefit?" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > Specifically, it says: > > "Do you think the Red Hat model would apply equally well to other > areas of software? " > > "Red Hat's model works because of the complexity of the technology we > work with. An operating platform has a lot of moving parts, and > customers are willing to pay to be insulated from that complexity." > > "I don't think you can take one finite element - like Apache - and > make a business out of it [using our model]. You need product > complexity." > > Presumably Steve Litt's point is that Red Hat has to make the > internals complex so that there's complexity to shield the costomer > from. Steve's is a classic non-testable paranoid conspiracy hypothesis. These have had fans on a recurring basis in (among other places) Steve's native USA. https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/ (Richard Hofstadter essay has never seemed more timely, and I don't mean in relation to Steve's theorising.) -- Cheers, Rick MoenDiaeresis: Keeping the cow out of co-worker since 700 AD. r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
> I am. I eschew Occam's Razor in favor of Litt's Razor, which can be > paraphrased "Follow the money." > > As one piece of evidence I present the words of a Redhat exec long > before systemd existed: > > http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html > > Search the word "complexity" to get right to the piece of evidence that > Redhat profits from complexifying Linux. A very good illustration, thanks Steve. /D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 09:39:11PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 18 May 2020 08:57:39 -0700 > Ian Zimmerman wrote: > > > On 2020-05-18 16:42, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > > In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just > > > like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. > > > > How would that work from the legal POV? Linux is still GPL, pretty > > much for this very reason. > > > > I do believe that systemd was meant to be more than init from the > > start, but I'm not going as far as Didier. > > I am. I eschew Occam's Razor in favor of Litt's Razor, which can be > paraphrased "Follow the money." > > As one piece of evidence I present the words of a Redhat exec long > before systemd existed: > > http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html > > Search the word "complexity" to get right to the piece of evidence that > Redhat profits from complexifying Linux. > Specifically, it says: "Do you think the Red Hat model would apply equally well to other areas of software? " "Red Hat's model works because of the complexity of the technology we work with. An operating platform has a lot of moving parts, and customers are willing to pay to be insulated from that complexity. " "I don't think you can take one finite element - like Apache - and make a business out of it [using our model]. You need product complexity. Presumably Steve Litt's point is that Red Hat has to make the internals complex so that there's complexity to shield the costomer from. -- hendrik > SteveT > > Steve Litt > May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques > of the Successful Technologist > http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Apologies for following up on my own post - just an afterthought. When I originally encountered systemd, the word was that it was so pervasive that it couldn't be removed (obviously, now we know different ;) ) Given the alleged non-optionality of systemd, I started to wonder about some kind of an init system wrapper (or even jail) - an abstraction layer which would sit between the init subsystem and the main system, and sanitise and homogenise interactions between the two; init systems, including systemd, could be plugged and unplugged into the top surface as desired; the abstraction layer would manage commands and responses (including lying to the init subsystem if the latter tried to do something dangerous or antisocial). I know - first reaction is to recoil in horror and disgust at the very thought (adding another layer of complexity to something which is already overcomplex). But there's something tantalising about it. On Mon, 2020-05-18 at 12:04 +0100, Peter Duffy wrote: > One of the things which always baffles me about systemd was that right > from the word go, there was something which would have nipped in the bud > all the controversy, pain, recriminations, etc. etc. Make systemd > optional (so that, for example, it could be selected at install time > from a range of available init systems, and later, if desired, removed > and reinstalled). > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Mon, 18 May 2020 08:57:39 -0700 - Ian Zimmerman : > On 2020-05-18 16:42, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just > > like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. > > How would that work from the legal POV? Linux is still GPL, pretty much > for this very reason. and herein lies the original sin... the GPL (which is not one license but a set of licenses) has three main flaws: - the LGPL license, which has allowed GNU/Linux environmental pollution over time - the lack of a non-commercial mandatory clause in the GPLs - the mistake of confusing 4 simple legal rights with freedom (which is something much broader I think), leading people to remain confined within technical, legal and - above all - economic aspects just my humble opinion Regards -- al3xu5 Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions. Public GPG/PGP key ID: 4096 bit RSA key F94CFE23 Fingerprint: 59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190 E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23 pgpw0YTRdYopN.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Mon, 18 May 2020 08:57:39 -0700 Ian Zimmerman wrote: > On 2020-05-18 16:42, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just > > like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. > > How would that work from the legal POV? Linux is still GPL, pretty > much for this very reason. > > I do believe that systemd was meant to be more than init from the > start, but I'm not going as far as Didier. I am. I eschew Occam's Razor in favor of Litt's Razor, which can be paraphrased "Follow the money." As one piece of evidence I present the words of a Redhat exec long before systemd existed: http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html Search the word "complexity" to get right to the piece of evidence that Redhat profits from complexifying Linux. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On 2020-05-18 16:42, Didier Kryn wrote: > In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just > like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. How would that work from the legal POV? Linux is still GPL, pretty much for this very reason. I do believe that systemd was meant to be more than init from the start, but I'm not going as far as Didier. IMO it had to do with the insatiable desire on part of RH folk to have feature parity with Windows even when that meant going beyond Unix traditions - such as the pointless "multiseat". -- Ian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 18/05/2020 à 13:04, Peter Duffy a écrit : Thanks for the heads up on that - fascinating article. One of the things which always baffles me about systemd was that right from the word go, there was something which would have nipped in the bud all the controversy, pain, recriminations, etc. etc. Make systemd optional (so that, for example, it could be selected at install time from a range of available init systems, and later, if desired, removed and reinstalled). That way, people who liked it could use it, and people who didn't like it could use something else. Win-win situation: users could use the init system which they wanted to use; and systemd developers wouldn't have to spend all their time fending off howls of protest and hatred, and could concentrate on making systemd better (and if they introduced something that reduced the overall systemd usage, then they'd know (hopefully) that it wasn't a good idea). It's so obvious and self-evident that it must be concluded that there are other factors and agendas at work. Make profit from the user. In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. Let's be positive: it can only make Window$ better, which is a non negligible outcome, given the amount of Window$ users out there. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Thanks for the heads up on that - fascinating article. One of the things which always baffles me about systemd was that right from the word go, there was something which would have nipped in the bud all the controversy, pain, recriminations, etc. etc. Make systemd optional (so that, for example, it could be selected at install time from a range of available init systems, and later, if desired, removed and reinstalled). That way, people who liked it could use it, and people who didn't like it could use something else. Win-win situation: users could use the init system which they wanted to use; and systemd developers wouldn't have to spend all their time fending off howls of protest and hatred, and could concentrate on making systemd better (and if they introduced something that reduced the overall systemd usage, then they'd know (hopefully) that it wasn't a good idea). It's so obvious and self-evident that it must be concluded that there are other factors and agendas at work. Which conclusion is deeply depressing. On Fri, 2020-05-15 at 14:44 -1000, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:09:46PM -0700, spiralofhope wrote: > Reminds me to revisit https://ewontfix.com/14/ > for Felker's Broken by Design article on systemd. > > None of the other init systems could compete > sysvinit due to the latter's huge installed > base. Except when marketing came along... > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:09:46PM -0700, spiralofhope wrote: > On Sat, 16 May 2020 03:06:37 +1000 > wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > > On 15 May 2020, at 22:51, Emiliano Marini via Dng > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't know who contact but the site http://without-systemd.org > > > isn't working (it throws database error): > > > > It looks to have been resurrected by someone else at > > https://without-systemd.frama.wiki/ but I can’t verify for it’s > > authenticity or content. "This is the resurrected without-systemd wiki, which was once hosted at without-systemdorg. The pages were fetched from Wayback Machine and converted to dokuwiki syntax." > TL;DR - WONTFIX Reminds me to revisit https://ewontfix.com/14/ for Felker's Broken by Design article on systemd. None of the other init systems could compete sysvinit due to the latter's huge installed base. Except when marketing came along... -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Great, thanks! On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:06 PM wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > On 15 May 2020, at 22:51, Emiliano Marini via Dng > wrote: > > > I don't know who contact but the site http://without-systemd.org isn't > working (it throws database error): > > > It looks to have been resurrected by someone else at > https://without-systemd.frama.wiki/ but I can’t verify for it’s > authenticity or content. > > —Tom > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
I believe that, we are being targeted by some.. even in the IRC, whitout expanding more on that.. Citando spiralofhope : On Sat, 16 May 2020 03:06:37 +1000 wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: On 15 May 2020, at 22:51, Emiliano Marini via Dng wrote: I don't know who contact but the site http://without-systemd.org isn't working (it throws database error): It looks to have been resurrected by someone else at https://without-systemd.frama.wiki/ but I can’t verify for it’s authenticity or content. TL;DR - WONTFIX Checking archives, it looks to have died in June 2019 with this as the last snapshot (from the Wayback Machine, I did not check other archives): https://web.archive.org/web/20190531032538/http://without-systemd.org:80/wiki/index.php/Main_Page I have a note from 2016-11-08 that said it had dated and incorrect information (with nothing specific cited). I don't know if the website was improved/corrected between then and that 2019-05-31 archive, and I don't know if that frama.wiki is an updated fork or just an archive. When I check the whois record: https://godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=without-systemd.org I see that without-systemd.org was updated 2019-10-02. Since that update is after the site died (2019-06-nn), I'm guessing the website has was abandoned, and there won't be any interest in fixing it. :( ___ Dng mailing list d...@lists.dyne.orghttps://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Sat, 16 May 2020 03:06:37 +1000 wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > On 15 May 2020, at 22:51, Emiliano Marini via Dng > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't know who contact but the site http://without-systemd.org > > isn't working (it throws database error): > > It looks to have been resurrected by someone else at > https://without-systemd.frama.wiki/ but I can’t verify for it’s > authenticity or content. TL;DR - WONTFIX Checking archives, it looks to have died in June 2019 with this as the last snapshot (from the Wayback Machine, I did not check other archives): https://web.archive.org/web/20190531032538/http://without-systemd.org:80/wiki/index.php/Main_Page I have a note from 2016-11-08 that said it had dated and incorrect information (with nothing specific cited). I don't know if the website was improved/corrected between then and that 2019-05-31 archive, and I don't know if that frama.wiki is an updated fork or just an archive. When I check the whois record: https://godaddy.com/whois/results.aspx?domain=without-systemd.org I see that without-systemd.org was updated 2019-10-02. Since that update is after the site died (2019-06-nn), I'm guessing the website has was abandoned, and there won't be any interest in fixing it. :( ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
> On 15 May 2020, at 22:51, Emiliano Marini via Dng wrote: > > > I don't know who contact but the site http://without-systemd.org isn't > working (it throws database error): It looks to have been resurrected by someone else at https://without-systemd.frama.wiki/ but I can’t verify for it’s authenticity or content. —Tom___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
