RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Guys, No one has ever said that D-STAR and the Internet will completely replace anything. But I will guarantee you that there are disasters during which ANYTHING can fail, including HF. NOTHING will ever be guaranteed. You cannot rely on anything. The point with D-STAR is that: * Contrary to the belief of many hams, the Internet CAN be counted on during a disaster. Even in an impacted area, there has been pockets of Internet access. * D-STAR can still work if the Internet is down, you just can't connect repeaters. * If the D-STAR's repeaters Internet connectivity is down, then a D-STAR repeater is just as good as any FM repeater * Not all repeaters and towers will get blown away or destroyed. There are towers that are designed to survive most anything. Amateur Radio's capability and fault tolerance is not just HF. Our biggest asset is actually the number of trained radio operators and our diversity of capabilities. And again, there are MANY other Emergency Service events that Amateur Radio operators help out with other than a Cat 5 Hurricane. And no, not even satellites are 100% trustworthy. Immediately after Katrina, there were some solar flares occurring and the sat phones became unusable. The unprepared Amateur Radio operator is the one that comes walking in with a HF radio or a D-STAR radio. The prepared Amateur Radio operator is the one that comes walking in with VHF/UHF FM and VHF/UHF DSTAR and HF and a repeater and 802.11 and computers and satellite and a few other things. From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Koltner Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 11:58 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access Hi Chuck, Good points. Although I think the likelihood of a (successful) large scale attack on the Internet itself is quite small compared the myriad of natural disasters we have every year, it certainly it worth thinking about and planning for. At some point I think you're just back to HF and (for those serving well-funded agencies such as the Red Cross) satellite links, though -- it's certainly a good idea to make sure those are part of a comprehensive emcomm plan. The military worries about these same sorts of problems... they launched their MEECN (minimum emergency essential communications network) plan back in the '60s, and it consists of an almost completely redundant set of all-wireless handsets, mobile radios, pagers, etc. They're still working on it today, hundreds of millions of dollars later! Of couse, they do have plenty of results to show for it -- I guess this really only makes the point that comprehensive emcomm plans are never finished, they're constantly evolving to meet the end-users' needs. (I'm suspect the original 196x MEECN plan didn't call for megabit+ satellite-based digital access, for instance!) ---Joel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
That was the thinking for many years. However, after a lot of research, it was determined that Andrew was indeed a Cat 5 when it hit Florida. I place my trust in the National Hurricane Center: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/NOAA_pr_8-21-02.html Wikipeida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_andrew and a local newspaper: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/weather/hurricane/sfl-scane22aug22,0,1661757.story 73 de W4AS Sebastian
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Hi Chuck, Good points. Although I think the likelihood of a (successful) large scale attack on the Internet itself is quite small compared the myriad of natural disasters we have every year, it certainly it worth thinking about and planning for. At some point I think you're just back to HF and (for those serving well-funded agencies such as the Red Cross) satellite links, though -- it's certainly a good idea to make sure those are part of a comprehensive emcomm plan. The military worries about these same sorts of problems... they launched their MEECN (minimum emergency essential communications network) plan back in the '60s, and it consists of an almost completely redundant set of all-wireless handsets, mobile radios, pagers, etc. They're still working on it today, hundreds of millions of dollars later! Of couse, they do have plenty of results to show for it -- I guess this really only makes the point that comprehensive emcomm plans are never finished, they're constantly evolving to meet the end-users' needs. (I'm suspect the original 196x MEECN plan didn't call for megabit+ satellite-based digital access, for instance!) ---Joel
Re: Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Andrew was cat 4 when it hit Florida. The only cat 5 to hit land in North America in last 50+ years hit southern Mexico last year. From NOAA info. Might have hit cat 5 before it hit like Kerterna. Once you get cat 3 higher make little difference, hi. Andrew was so devastating. It was said it was so strong it was a tornado that was very large and lasted long time. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Sebastian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/06/28 Sat AM 12:06:17 EDT >To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access > >The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935, and Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Both >were category 5s, and both hit south Florida. > >73 de W4AS >Sebastian > >On Jun 27, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Ron Wright wrote: > >> Not sure what Cat 5 hurricane you were in. There has never been a >> Cat 5 hurricane hit Florida going back over 100 years. Sure there >> has been one, maybe within last 100,000 yrs, hi. Kertina was Cat 5, >> but down to Cat 4 before hitting New Orlenes. >> >> I remember Charley in 2004. Was headed right up the west coast >> headed right for us in Tampa area. A few of my friends went to >> Orlando to wait it out. Got to about Sarasota and made right turn >> and followed my friends to Orlando. They spent the next week >> operating a chain saw, >> >> 73, ron, n9ee/r > > > Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Joel: While I agree that the Internet backbone is very robust, I certainly wouldn't put a nearly 100% certification on that. Keep in mind that a failure of internet connectivity alone is now worthy of declaring a communications emergency and cause for Ecomm activation. The most likely scenario is a large scale attack on the network, which can happen and can have serious implications. It's also conceivable that this can happen at an opportune time to multply the effects of man-made or natural disasters. In other words, don't count on it for long-haul Ecom--use it, but have a backup plan. Chuck - N8DNX -Original Message- From: jkoltner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:55 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, "Woodrick, Ed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > History has shown that the Internet is much more survivable than some hams think. Absolutely. The Internet has at least a thousand times more access points and wired linked than any amateur radio system does; I think it's a fairly safe statement that while the Internet has occasionally become slow due to huge virus infections or similar man-made maladies, at no time in the past decade has any large fraction of the Internet become completely unavailable for more than, say, hours at a time. In a diaster, you certainly have to assume that local Internet access is gone... but it's almost a 100% certainty that the Internet is doing just fine once you're outside the affected area, which is seldom more than some tens of miles away. Building an emcomm system that builds on this assumption (e.g., making sure you have mountain- top systems with backup power that have wireless links to another mountain-top system some tens of miles away) makes for a far more robust system than amateur radio alone could ever hope to have the funds to build, IMO. ---Joel
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935, and Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Both were category 5s, and both hit south Florida. 73 de W4AS Sebastian On Jun 27, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Ron Wright wrote: > Not sure what Cat 5 hurricane you were in. There has never been a > Cat 5 hurricane hit Florida going back over 100 years. Sure there > has been one, maybe within last 100,000 yrs, hi. Kertina was Cat 5, > but down to Cat 4 before hitting New Orlenes. > > I remember Charley in 2004. Was headed right up the west coast > headed right for us in Tampa area. A few of my friends went to > Orlando to wait it out. Got to about Sarasota and made right turn > and followed my friends to Orlando. They spent the next week > operating a chain saw, > > 73, ron, n9ee/r
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
--- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, "Woodrick, Ed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > History has shown that the Internet is much more survivable than some hams think. Absolutely. The Internet has at least a thousand times more access points and wired linked than any amateur radio system does; I think it's a fairly safe statement that while the Internet has occasionally become slow due to huge virus infections or similar man-made maladies, at no time in the past decade has any large fraction of the Internet become completely unavailable for more than, say, hours at a time. In a diaster, you certainly have to assume that local Internet access is gone... but it's almost a 100% certainty that the Internet is doing just fine once you're outside the affected area, which is seldom more than some tens of miles away. Building an emcomm system that builds on this assumption (e.g., making sure you have mountain- top systems with backup power that have wireless links to another mountain-top system some tens of miles away) makes for a far more robust system than amateur radio alone could ever hope to have the funds to build, IMO. ---Joel
RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
oops I wrote: > Well worked, Ed. s/worked/worded/
Building redundant D-STAR Systems (was: Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access)
Bob McCormick W1QA wrote: > In what I've drawn up so far - one of the weakest points > in our whole configuration is the D-STAR repeater controller > itself! Its easy to configure redundancy in that last mile > network connection ... and setup a reliable gateway including > maybe even a backup system. We can sustain the failure of > a band module - which would leave other modules available. > But if we lose the controller itself ... ugh! Bob, this is actually a very interesting topic. One thing I've heard some groups have done is bypass that "power bus" topology of the controller altogether. It really does nothing more than turn power distribution into a single-point-of-failure. Plugging the modules into power directly would not (as far as I can tell) suffer any ill effects, unless they were accidentally hooked to floating grounds that didn't tie together. That could make the serial protocol between the controller and the modules unhappy if current were flowing. The "brains" of the controller is harder. One could buy two of them and build a complex switching system for the four module cables and the Ethernet... but that device probably introduces more possible points of failure than the controller itself does. Hmm... interesting topic. There's also been some discussion about how to "harden" the Gateway server properly, but those are generally well-known best-practices that any server admin who understands Linux could accomplish pretty easily. Same with the network gear, kinda... at least there's some commercial class networking gear that could be pressed into service and probably never show a fault in many years of operating time. Even some "semi-commercial" quality gear will do that nowadays. What else would need to be considered? Obviously a power source... automatic generator, if really paranoid a battery plant (and figure out some way to alert over D-STAR itself that the battery is online and site power is off... h... another side project...), etc. Nate WY0X
RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Ed WA4YIH wrote: > Since its inception, the "Internet" has never gone down. > There are places where access has been unavailable, but > the Internet has never gone down. Except for the last mile, > most Internet connections are highly redundant. In the middle > of Katrina, in the middle of the biggest California Earthquakes, > the Internet has been available. (snip) Well worked, Ed. As we're building out a few D-STAR systems ... we're making sure that they are designed to be as reliable as possible - including the gateways and network connection. In what I've drawn up so far - one of the weakest points in our whole configuration is the D-STAR repeater controller itself! Its easy to configure redundancy in that last mile network connection ... and setup a reliable gateway including maybe even a backup system. We can sustain the failure of a band module - which would leave other modules available. But if we lose the controller itself ... ugh! (Sorry if this thread is getting a bit off-topic ...) Bob W1QA [Assistant Moderator - This is on topic.]
Re: Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Not sure what Cat 5 hurricane you were in. There has never been a Cat 5 hurricane hit Florida going back over 100 years. Sure there has been one, maybe within last 100,000 yrs, hi. Kertina was Cat 5, but down to Cat 4 before hitting New Orlenes. I remember Charley in 2004. Was headed right up the west coast headed right for us in Tampa area. A few of my friends went to Orlando to wait it out. Got to about Sarasota and made right turn and followed my friends to Orlando. They spent the next week operating a chain saw, 73, ron, n9ee/r
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
And I was in the eye of a CAT5 hurricane and the internet, the electricity, the REPEATERS, the Cell towers and commercial towers were down. Even the hospital (Fletcher-Allen) had no electricity. The generator got whacked too. The EOC in Punta Gorda was out of service and the Sarasota EOC filled in until they got up and running 24 hours later. I recall having this conversation once before, Hams were heavily relied upon that week. There is a thing called line of sight! In other words, simplex operations or non repeater operation. Every excercise should be carried out as though these services are not there and then migrate those services back into the excercise. Start at the top of the emergency rather than at the bottom. But what do I know So it does happen... 2004 Hurricane Chalie, Punta Gorda, Port Charlotte Florida. de N1TAI -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:19 am Subject: RE: RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access I have walked into a location where the eye of a hurricane has passed and Internet was available. And don’t forget that we seldom locate repeaters in valleys that are prone to flooding, I like my repeaters on top of the hill. Not all repeaters are connected with DSL service, some have very high reliability connections. No, I’m not going to count on the fact that Internet is going to always be available. But I’m not going to say that it never will be available. History has shown that the Internet is much more survivable than some hams think. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
I have walked into a location where the eye of a hurricane has passed and Internet was available. And don’t forget that we seldom locate repeaters in valleys that are prone to flooding, I like my repeaters on top of the hill. Not all repeaters are connected with DSL service, some have very high reliability connections. No, I’m not going to count on the fact that Internet is going to always be available. But I’m not going to say that it never will be available. History has shown that the Internet is much more survivable than some hams think.
Re: RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
As stated access to the internet from your local connection will probably not be aviable if a Katrina or the like hits. The internet will be there, just the last mile will not. Some here with D-Star are thinking of RF linking to distant city DSTar repeaters for the gate way; a link or remote base using DStar rigs on the repeater. We provide the local repeaters with a link to another 100 miles away DStar repeater that has the gate way. No guarantee, there is never is, but some reasonable back up is needed. If one is really concerned do as most EOCs do, have the internet via a satelite connection. The EOCs have expensive systems with even portable flip up antennas on the emergency comm vehicles. As Hams we can do the same with something like Direct TV. Be prepared to do the install after the storm, not the one you are using now. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: "Woodrick, Ed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/06/26 Thu PM 11:07:01 EDT >To: "dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com" >Subject: RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access > >Matt, > >Since its inception, the "Internet" has never gone down.
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Craig, When you loose power at your home most of the other areas around you most often have power and yes your internet might work. For New Orleans after Katrina type of event all for miles around you is down and I would not expect any service to work. Your battery/AC converter will make your computer work, but not the rest of the system. Here most of our cel phones and newer internet services are in fiber under ground and this has been planned to survive, but I do not count on it. The systems are rugged, but I am sure there are weaknesses that will be taken out. 73, ron, n9ee/r >From: Craig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/06/27 Fri AM 03:36:43 EDT >To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access > > > >I wonder how many internet users THINK the internet is out but its >only because their cable modem went dark when the AC power quit at >their location.
Re: Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Tony and all, Here in Tampa Bay, Florida, area we have a number of cable providers that offer cable, internet, phone, etc. on one cable. I have Verizon FIOS which is a fiber optics to the home and I subscribe to cable TV, internet at 3 Mb and phone. The phone is high, but the others are competive with others. When home power is lost the only thing working is the phone and on a battery. The battery is good for about 4 hours. No cable TV or internet even though you might have gen/battery power for computer. Just the way it is done. For New Orleans after Katrina it would not be a good test to compare DSL or any other serice in normal operation as we all know. For a Katrina one can expect most all services to be down except the sat stuff like Direct TV or other sat services we now have with our EOCs. Unless you have this sat service you will probably be down. My Verizon I think is in Texas with some type of connection servers here. 73, ron, n9ee/r
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008, Jack wrote: > I was in Lafayette, LA for this event, our cable Internet was only as good > as there batteries and gas powered generators, then there was also the lines > that were down. The short COX had limited or no coverage for 3 days in some > areas and in the rural area I lived in it was 9 days till the cable was > restored. DSL around here seems to be the best bet. I've had 20 minutes of downtime since April 2001. -- ...DOUG KD4MOJ Tallahassee, FL
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Thank you all for your responses. I now have a better perspective of things. Matt / N3WNX
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
I was in Lafayette, LA for this event, our cable Internet was only as good as there batteries and gas powered generators, then there was also the lines that were down. The short COX had limited or no coverage for 3 days in some areas and in the rural area I lived in it was 9 days till the cable was restored. ---Original Message---
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
At 05:36 PM 6/27/2008, you wrote: >I was told the that the Internet was still available in parts of New >Orleans after Katrina eventhough the power and the telephones were >out. Yes, that's what I heard as well (read my notes on the most common failure mode for Internet linked repeaters). >http://www.renesys.com/tech/presentations/pdf/Renesys-Katrina-Report- >9sep2005.pdf > >I wonder how many internet users THINK the internet is out but its >only because their cable modem went dark when the AC power quit at >their location. A simple car battery and a $39 12 volt to 120 volt >inverter from Wallmart would have solved that problem. > >Should part of every ham's emergency kit contain a way to operate >their cable modem from battery power? Yes, my experience here is that cable Internet often does survive power outages, provided you have a means to power your equipment. My current cable modem could be run directly off 13.8V, so I could even ditch the inverter. :) I haven't bothered yet, because I haven't decided how best to manage the IRLP PC (which is also the router at that site), so there's no point keeping the cable modem up. The repeater will stay up though, as it has battery backup available. 73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
> > > >Since its inception, the "Internet" has > >never gone down...In the middle of Katrina, > >in the middle of the biggest California > >Earthquakes, the Internet has been available. Tony Langdon vk3jed wrote: > That's what I've seen as well. As I have said > previously, the single biggest cause of VoIP > links in the past has been lack of standby > power at the site(s). D-STAR would be > subject to the same issues. I was told the that the Internet was still available in parts of New Orleans after Katrina eventhough the power and the telephones were out. http://www.renesys.com/tech/presentations/pdf/Renesys-Katrina-Report- 9sep2005.pdf I wonder how many internet users THINK the internet is out but its only because their cable modem went dark when the AC power quit at their location. A simple car battery and a $39 12 volt to 120 volt inverter from Wallmart would have solved that problem. Should part of every ham's emergency kit contain a way to operate their cable modem from battery power?
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
On Jun 26, 2008, at 3:20 PM, nj902 wrote: > Beg to differ, Nate. > > I know you computer gurus are all gaga about the world-wide call sign > routed [Nextel Direct-Talk] D-Star model, but from the point of view > of an Emergency Management Agency, we have no interest in having one > of our communications resources tied to the entire planet during a > local emergency. > Hmm, how to respond to this to clear up misconceptions about what I'm saying... I'm not "gaga" about it, in fact I find it has serious flaws. Source- routing is great as long as there's always an "ack" system to prove you source-routed all the way to your destination. D-STAR has this (RPT vs UR back from the repeater) but it often "disappears" in practice, and I'm not sure why. The system could also benefit from real-time warnings about doubling (which would require a lot wider frequency split or a mobile duplexer built into the rig so you could listen at the same time as transmitting) etc. It's not perfect, by any means. But as I'm learning to say, "It is what it is." A Gateway-equipped D-STAR system is instantly a fully- linked, source-routed system. If that's not what you wanted to use, why are you building a Gateway-equipped D-STAR system for your local use? It is what it is. Or another way to look at it, use the appropriate tool for the job. A local only net, probably shouldn't be on a D-STAR Gateway-equipped system, if there's some logical, serious concern, about interruptions from afar. > We might be interested in regional networking or access from the State > EOC - it depends on the circumstances. > I understand completely. All I'm saying is that plenty of EmComm nets and activities happen on "shared" spectrum in both training (peacetime) and very trying times, and those Nets don't have the ability to "block out" other spectrum users. They have procedures and knowledge of how to adapt to an interloper, intentional or accidental. > Actually, if D-Star really takes off, it is inevitable that there is > no way everyone will play together and there will be separate > networks, subnetworks, connect & disconnect on demand, or whatever > turns out to be the evolution of things. > Perhaps. Right now it's bringing dissimilar groups together around the technology. And there ARE mechanisms built in to "filter out" things and/or people you don't want to hear, but not to force them not to "timeshare" on the repeater, really. Digital code squelch comes to mind here. The distinct "user groups" can agree to a code and only hear the "other guys" if they find/use the same code, press the EMR button and holler "HELP" or however that darn BK button works... I haven't quite figured that one out yet. Does anyone on an EmComm Net really need to run "open squelch" other than the Net Control? Food for thought. But... in order to take full advantage of that particular part of the technology, the participants need to pay attention to the displays on their rigs. Take that a step further. Do the participants in the event really need to hear each other? Could the Net Controller callsign route to everyone as needed? If folks go back to making sure they voice ID, could the radios be pre- programmed with "RS1" "RS2" "MED1" "MED2" for things like Rest Stop 1, Rest Stop 2, Medical 1, Medical 2, etc... and the Net controller's rig have all of those available as UR memories? Want to get less specific? "RS" for all Rest Stops. "MED" for all Medical. "SAG" for all Sag Wagons. Just to use one type of event as an example... a bike race. Change these as you see fit to match your needs. These are just rambling thoughts... your Net runs your way. That's how it goes. I'm just challenging folks to think about how to implement this new technology they've "chosen". It will do a LOT of things, but few are pushing the envelope and trying them out as ways to make things better. But sticking to the old "analog repeater" ways is limiting, to some extent. Someone has to break ground and try some other methods. If they work well, great. If it sucks... call it a learning experience. Certainly "real" public safety dispatch has changed over the years. Trunking, Talk Groups, etc... all used regularly now. The Fire Chiefs may listen to all districts, but the grunts don't. Same with the police. And the garbage truck guys may be sharing the same repeater infrastructure too! > New ideas don't automatically mean BETTER ideas. For proof just look > at the glitzy, state-of-the-art, digital dashboard in the 84 > Corvette. Others tried it too. Look into any car today - what do you > see? Good old fashioned analog readouts. People found that the old > model works best. > Never said they did. Just saying instead of putting the "load" on the admin to try to tear down and reconnect a system at the whim of the users of the system, on a system that was never i
RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
At 01:07 PM 6/27/2008, you wrote: >Matt, > >Since its inception, the "Internet" has never gone down. There are >places where access has been unavailable, but the Internet has never gone down. >Except for the last mile, most Internet connections are highly >redundant. In the middle of Katrina, in the middle of the biggest >California Earthquakes, the Internet has been available. That's what I've seen as well. As I have said previously, the single biggest cause of VoIP links in the past has been lack of standby power at the site(s). D-STAR would be subject to the same issues. >But that's not to say that the Internet will always be available at >all locations. > >D-STAR is primarily another tool in the tool belt. At its best, it >provides capabilities that haven't been readily available. If it >loses the Internet connection, it can still act as a repeater, it >can still send data, and it can still relay position reports. Exactly. I like to have as many tools as possible. Even HF can go down - I have had HF nets (80 metres after dark when the band should be good) where's we've had to QSY to VHF and UHF, because HF wouldn't go more than 10 miles due to unusual ionospheric conditions. Nothing is 100% reliable, but the more options we have, the better odds that at least one of them will work on the day. >D-STAR doesn't replace any technologies, it only gives us a better >opportunity to solve problems. Diversity is our strong card, and D-STAR enhances that. 73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Matt, Since its inception, the "Internet" has never gone down. There are places where access has been unavailable, but the Internet has never gone down. Except for the last mile, most Internet connections are highly redundant. In the middle of Katrina, in the middle of the biggest California Earthquakes, the Internet has been available. But that's not to say that the Internet will always be available at all locations. D-STAR is primarily another tool in the tool belt. At its best, it provides capabilities that haven't been readily available. If it loses the Internet connection, it can still act as a repeater, it can still send data, and it can still relay position reports. But the most important thing to remember is that never every emergency consists of the world blowing up. So there are many times when the infrastructure can be expected to operate quite well. Localized flooding, large fires, lost persons, are all situations in which things should continue to work. Professional Disaster Planners don't plan on everything not working, they look at probabilities and possibilities. The probability that any event will take out every repeater in an area is relatively low (assuming a decent number of repeaters cover an area). So they would expect that there is a high probability that some repeater communications will always be there. D-STAR doesn't replace any technologies, it only gives us a better opportunity to solve problems. Ed WA4YIH
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
"...I'm not trying to start any arguments..." I wouldn't take it that you were - this is a discussion list - people discuss things - we ask questions - share thoughts and learn. I started by reading most of the messages in the list archives - there's lots of information about system operation, bandwidth, coordination issues, etc. I still have a lot to learn. "...Why choose a world-wide, open-gateway, type of system to be an emergency system?..." Good question. Icom has been promoting D-Star for emergency communications use in their adds in QST and on the web - even going so far as to call the mobiles and portables "responder kit" equipment. Perhaps that's just an attempt to get into grant $$$? Nonetheless - one good perspective is to look at features such as intrinsic call sign ID, integrated data, and GPS capability for their benefit to a local volunteer communications group. Another plus is the fact that D-Star is a new mode for most hams - so implementing a repeater system is a way to generate interest and enthusiasm and bring new volunteers into your support group. --- --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, "Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Having read things back and forth, I have a question: ... Why choose a world-wide, open-gateway, type of system to be an emergency system? ... I'm not trying to start any arguments,..."
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Having read things back and forth, I have a question: I'm not in ARES, RACES, or any other emergency group, but I was wondering Why choose a world-wide, open-gateway, type of system to be an emergency system? The way D-Star gets things out other than local broadcast range is via the gateway, and if there were a major incident, wouldn't the internet be considered to be "out" as well? If so, then you'd just have the broadcast range, same as an analog repeater. No, I'm not trying to start any arguments, just wondering why put all the effort into creating a world-accessible system for local emergency communication. Matt / N3WNX
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
That's my point. People will put these systems in. They will find that there isn't a perfect match of system features to their needs. People will say - "X" is a problem - or it would sure be nice if we could do "Y" Then the computer wizards will write come code and fix "X" or add "Y" and things will evolve to better meet needs - needs which may not be the same everywhere.. And - hopefully we will all learn and have fun along the way.
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Excellent Tony. Though I have heard the remote NCO in action I never really thought through the logistics of how that lends a hand in a localized communication emergency. 73 de Jeff, KE9V IRLP 4212 DV-Dongle
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
At 10:20 AM 6/27/2008, you wrote: >As far as communications outside of the local area - we have HF rigs >in our EOC and lots of local volunteers who are willing to show up >with HF capabilities as needed. You might be surprised at how out of area communications can be used. The VoIP WX Net offers a few examples, which would also translate well into the D-STAR world as well. Firstly, need a 24x7 NCO schedule? Easy, outsource the role, train up some hams around the world. I am one such NCO, usually heard in the hours 2-8AM (US EDT) during hurricanes. Secondly, HF doesn't always go where you want it to. There may not be a path between the affected area and where information needs to go. This is quite common for hurricanes in the Carribean or Mexico. We have used (good old fashioned manual) HF relays from the affected area to an intermediate station who had propagation in their favour, as well as Echolink/IRLP. From there, it's direct to VoIP NCO and/or the NHC itself - Bingo! Another piece of traffic that wouldn't have otherwise been passed. >The general feeling is that if the disaster is big enough to take >down wide area public communications carriers we wouldn't count on >the internet or any internet linked system - D-Star or otherwise - >plus - there are sat phones for communications with FEMA. You might be surprised. Our experience is that the repeaters themselves are the most vulnerable during hurricanes, and by far the most common mode of failure is power failure at the site. Sites which have emergency power often remain on air (and on the Internet) during a hurricane. A suitably hardent D-STAR node is likely to be useful during an emergency as well. As significant parts of the US are already going D-STAR for SKYWARN nets, I will be keeping my Dongle on standby, to take traffic from those nets during hurricanes. >It's just a matter of being prepared. > >As I said earlier, time will tell and D-Star as well as other >amateur communications modes will keep evolving - the journey is >where the fun is - I simply have pointed out that acceptance of the >world-wide-routed D-Star model isn't universal. I'm sure there will be changes. However, D-STAR avoids the worst issues we have on FM/VoIP, namely misconfigured nodes and audio levels. There are no tails or CWIDs on D-STAR, and audio levels are much more consistent across the network. There goes 80% of our problems. The next 15% is those stations that just blast away with long CQ calls. The routed model of D-STAR does encourage this, because the routed model doesn't allow you to listen for traffic before hitting the PTT, and if you're lucky to get in between other traffic, you have no idea. A good Net Control can help here, of course. But then again, Net Control may not be operating from the system receiving the call. The routed design of D-STAR's traditional mode of operation leads to many "uncertain states" across the network and a lot of "blind operating". It would be nice to be able to, for instance, turn off routing and still be able to link to reflectors for wide area nets. It's a new system and there's still teething issues we need to work on. :) 73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Re: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 5:20 PM, nj902 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The general feeling is that if the disaster is big enough to take > down wide area public communications carriers we wouldn't count on > the internet or any internet linked system - D-Star or otherwise - > plus - there are sat phones for communications with FEMA. > In which case someone wouldn't be interrupting your local usage coming over the gateway! :) Otherwise, the Internet/Gateways would be another tool in the ol' tool box and the training Nate talked about would be something your net controls should have? -- John D. Hays - K7VE Phone: 206-801-0820 Fax: 866-309-6077 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] VOIP/SIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Identify who I am? Well, Ed, I use the internet option for Yahoo groups and I have noted that on every message I enter on every group I post to - it clearly shows: "nj902 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" - so I didn't think there was anybody who didn't have access to QRZ if they wanted to know who I am. As far as communications outside of the local area - we have HF rigs in our EOC and lots of local volunteers who are willing to show up with HF capabilities as needed. The general feeling is that if the disaster is big enough to take down wide area public communications carriers we wouldn't count on the internet or any internet linked system - D-Star or otherwise - plus - there are sat phones for communications with FEMA. It's just a matter of being prepared. As I said earlier, time will tell and D-Star as well as other amateur communications modes will keep evolving - the journey is where the fun is - I simply have pointed out that acceptance of the world-wide-routed D-Star model isn't universal. --- --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, "Woodrick, Ed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Interesting viewpoint (BTW, why do you never identify who you are?)..."
RE: [dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Interesting viewpoint (BTW, why do you never identify who you are?) If you don't want anyone transiting your gateway, then it is really easy just to stop the services on the gateway, or block the inbound ports. But from the point of view of many of us and our Emergency Management Agencies, communications outside of the local area is a very important capability. No area is an island. Many events escalate to the point where cities ask counties ask states ask federal (pick one or more) for help. And once you ask for help from above, the folks in that remote EOC are going to want to know what is going on. Here in Atlanta, we are the home of the State EOC and the FEMA Region EOC. We recognize that there will be times where any county in the state or state in the region will want to talk to our area. But if you don't want anyone to talk to you, just stop the services or block the ports. Ed WA4YIH
[dstar_digital] Re: Limited access
Beg to differ, Nate. I know you computer gurus are all gaga about the world-wide call sign routed [Nextel Direct-Talk] D-Star model, but from the point of view of an Emergency Management Agency, we have no interest in having one of our communications resources tied to the entire planet during a local emergency. We might be interested in regional networking or access from the State EOC - it depends on the circumstances. Actually, if D-Star really takes off, it is inevitable that there is no way everyone will play together and there will be separate networks, subnetworks, connect & disconnect on demand, or whatever turns out to be the evolution of things. New ideas don't automatically mean BETTER ideas. For proof just look at the glitzy, state-of-the-art, digital dashboard in the 84 Corvette. Others tried it too. Look into any car today - what do you see? Good old fashioned analog readouts. People found that the old model works best. The new technology stayed in the dashboards - all those dials are microprocessor driven - but the new technology was refined to work the way the users want it to work. Likewise, new technology will be part of amateur radio's future - but the user interfaces - and the architecture of the systems that we use will be driven by what meets amateur radio needs. It's easy to see the attraction of the call sign routed model - it is an attraction for existing hams, particularly computer oriented hams, to be able to do things that ham radio could never do before - but is it an attraction to potential new hams??? We should be careful here - if we want there to be amateur radio in the future - it may not be a real good idea to evolve the "product" into a poor imitiation of the same thing any 16 year old can get at a the local mall for $29/month. - --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: for local Nets. "...Trying to cram D-STAR with it's USER-routed model with all-the- time linking via Gateways into the older Net Command and Control model, is probably a mistake. I think over time we will all TRY to use the old models, but they'll fall apart, ..."
