Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Gary Pearce KN4AQ]

At 10:29 AM 4/19/2010, john_ke5c wrote:

> Nothing that would prevent you from making and scoring points using DV
> Simplex.

If anyone seriously plans on using VHF simplex DStar during Field Day, a 
simplex frequency other than 146.520 might be agree upon? Perhaps 146.580?



First, the rules for all ARRL contests and Field Day prohibit using 146.52 
for making contacts.


As for 146.58, well, here's something to keep in mind to avoid having 
D-STAR get a really bad reputation among analog simplex users:


Stay off the analog simplex channels!

It's a courtesy thing, not a rules thing (other than that amorphous "good 
amateur practice" deal). On an analog receiver, a D-STAR signal sounds like 
"open squelch," a fairly loud rushing sound. So it is pretty much 
impossible to share a simplex channel between analog and digital users. The 
D-STAR users won't have a problem. They'll hear either nothing (auto-detect 
turned off), or they may hear the analog signal normally (auto-detect 
turned on). The analog users can do nothing to prevent hearing the D-STAR 
Wsh, short of leaving the frequency. And that will make them very 
unhappy indeed.


This is worse than mixing it up among repeaters, where tone access can at 
least mitigate the problem some. We can't expect all simplex users to begin 
using tone encode/decode to avoid hearing our D-STAR signals.


The solution: separate spectrum. In much of the country, the spectrum 
between 145.5 and 145.8 is already "digital," albeit for packet. 145.67 has 
been informally adopted for D-STAR simplex in areas where there is no 
incumbent packet system.


So for Field Day, I suggest 145.67 unless you have packet activity in your 
area. Attention Minnesota! 145.67 is used for a statewide packet system.


73,
Gary KN4AQ




ARVN: Amateur Radio//Video News
Gary Pearce KN4AQ
508 Spencer Crest Ct.
Cary, NC 27513
kn...@arvideonews.com
919-380-9944
www.ARVideoNews.com  

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[bruce mallon]

STAY OFF KNOWN SIMPLEX FREQUENCIES ! It's that simple. Here in Florida we have 
ECHO LINK stations popping up on KNOWN simplex net frequencies while UNUSED 
frequencies sit unused by them 
 
The idea you can place digital on simplex and the others use a tone squelch is 
nonsense digital will show as a high background noise and the idea of simplex 
is point to point contacts.
 
144.200, 144.210, 144.225 and 144.250 are common SSB or SSB net frequencies  
you DON'T hear FM on them and DV/digital/dstar should be the same don't look 
for a fight.
 
Sounds to me that 145.67 is a good start and should be placed in the ARRL band 
plain

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, cybersapient  wrote:


From: cybersapient 
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 10:23 AM


  



I'm surprised you didn't suggest that the analog FM users on simplex simply put 
a PL tone on- it works in simplex, as well, you know. That would allow people 
to maintain their unsquelched condition if a DV communication is in progress. 
These reasons to keep from offending non-DSTAR users don't really hold water- 
back in the day, there were people with AM radios, and people with multimode 
(FM, SSB, AM, etc) radios. The folks with AM radios were annoyed when they 
heard "noises" on their AM sets. They didn't have PL tones at their disposal at 
the time. And yet, here today, how many radios in the VHF/UHF spectrum have an 
AM setting? Seems the more beneficial modes have won-out over the less 
beneficial modes. This is not to say that DV is more beneficial than any of the 
other modes, but it is intended to point out the specious characteristics of 
the complaints, of those without DV capability, about DV. The same argument can 
be made about packet radio, APRS,
 an all the digital modes (AMTOR, PACTOR, etc), and all those modes have a 
place on our ham bands.

For the record, I agree with the author of the original post that hearing 
something akin to open squelch noise burst on an otherwise quiet channel is a 
bit disconcerting. 

Personally, if a mode doesn't get me something- longer communications range, 
more error-free communications, clearer voice quality, etc, I just won't use 
it. If DV really got us more range, (It's only marginally better, and in some 
circumstances, worse, than FM. SSB and CW really are the king of the hill if 
one wants maximum range), on VHF and HF bands, and HF is still better yet. I 
will allow that satellite communications may yet be better, especially in low 
solar cycle conditions, but there are limited opportunities (time with a bird 
up between two communications endpoints) to use most of the satellites.

DSTAR is unique in that it allows mixed voice/data on the same frequency, same 
mode, and it is also unique in its Internet and Repeater-based features, none 
of which are really useful when infrastructure is compromised (loss of the 
repeater and/or Internet connection means loss of these features). Remember, if 
the phone in your house is inoperative due to disaster, the Internet traverses 
the same carrier(s), and it too will not be available. Same goes for cellular 
service- given the cell site is intact, if cell service is unable to get out of 
the local area, it is most likely due to failure at the local Central Office 
(CO) carrier at which the cell traffic is routed. Again, if this is down, most 
likely so is one's Internet.

As Field Day is about Disaster Communications preparedness, it would make sense 
to rely solely on one's own infrastructure (back-up power, hastily erected 
antennas, etc.,) to make contacts. Again, Field Day is about testing one's 
ability to communicate outside one's local area, in a disaster scenario- 
permanently- erected antennas may have been damaged by the disaster, after all.

I am sure many will find this post unsettling, and some will find it outright 
offensive to their DSTAR mindset. I apologize to those folks, in advance. For 
the record, I have three DSTAR radios, among all my other multimode radios. I 
believe there are tools in every toolbox that serve unique purposes, and they 
are useful for those purposes. There are a large variety of tools in one's 
toolbox because no one tool is useful for all tasks. Such is the same for radio 
transceivers, as well as our hobby. It would be best if frequency coordinators 
did the heavy lifting here, and if people want to use DV in simplex, the 
frequency coordinators should make sure there is spectrum allocated for such 
purposes. One wonders why they have not done so to date.

73,
Shane

--- In dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com, Gary Pearce KN4AQ  wrote:
>
> At 10:29 AM 4/19/2010, john_ke5c wrote:
> > > Nothing that would prevent you from making and scoring points using DV
> > > Simplex.
> >
> >If anyone seriously plans on using VHF simplex DStar during Field Day, a 
> >simplex frequency other than 146.520 might be agree upon? Perhaps 146.580?

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Gary Pearce KN4AQ]

At 10:23 AM 4/20/2010, cybersapient wrote:
I'm surprised you didn't suggest that the analog FM users on simplex 
simply put a PL tone on- it works in simplex, as well, you know.


Hi, Shane,

PL (CTCSS) "works" on simplex technically, of course. But it's not feasible 
logistically.


CTCSS requires what I'll call a "cooperative effort" - everybody has to 
know and agree to use it, and agree on a specific tone frequency. On analog 
repeaters, cooperation is mandated, at least to access the repeater. 
Keeping your own receiver quiet by using tone decode is your choice.


Do you think that kind of cooperative effort is possible across a broad 
range of simplex users (such as you'll find on 146.58, or any of the 
band-plan simplex channels)?


Do you think it can be imposed on simplex operators, as in, "Don't like my 
D-STAR digital hash? Well, use CTCSS and don't bother me again."? (Do you 
know how many hams don't even know what D-STAR IS yet?)


That contains all the ingredients you need for a range war, and everybody 
loses.


Separate spectrum exists for simplex (while it is very had to come by for 
repeaters). Let's use it, and be good neighbors. We will have to be aware 
of packet or other digital activity in the 145.5-145.8 region, and dodge 
that when we find it.



bruce mallon  wrote:


STAY OFF KNOWN SIMPLEX FREQUENCIES ! It's that simple.


Closer, Bruce, but here's the rub. Simplex channels (or, what I think you 
really meant is "known simplex USE") are "known" mostly by the people using 
them regularly, not by the general population surrounding them.


Here in my medium-size area (Raleigh-Durham NC, 29th TV market, ~1,000,000 
population demographic), various clubs and ARES groups have suggested that 
their members use of one or another simplex channel. There are some ad-hoc 
groups of hams who end up on one channel for weeks, months, maybe years. 
None keep the channels very busy, but most have a few hams who monitor them 
on and off. I know that exists, but I couldn't tell you who's using what 
across the region.


These simplex groups are all way too loose for coordinated CTCSS (except in 
the mind of the dedicated urban planner). So I still think that, for now, 
we're best off staying off ALL the band plan simplex channels, and 
establish our own spot. Though if you think you know a spot above 146 MHz 
that is truly vacant, well, enjoy it.


Maybe some day we'll be established enough to get a spot for digital 
simplex in the band plan, but don't hold your breath (and the guys in the 
know are now holding their sides and ROTFL - not because we don't deserve 
the spectrum, but because they know just how likely ANY "band plan" changes 
and recognition are for anything new or different, but that's a whole 
'nother can of worms).


73,
Gary KN4AQ

ARVN: Amateur Radio//Video News
Gary Pearce KN4AQ
508 Spencer Crest Ct.
Cary, NC 27513
kn...@arvideonews.com
919-380-9944
www.ARVideoNews.com  

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[bruce mallon]

NONE of them are on KNOWN  FM SIMPLEX FREQUENCIES 




  



In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet. 

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.1125, 441.1250, 441.1375, 441.1500, 441.1625, 441.1750

For other areas contact you band plan coordinator (and not a mailing list).


  

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Woodrick, Ed]

David,

Just because SERA published it, doesn't mean that it is true. (or in more 
specifically, should be used). SERA will be quick to say that they aren't a 
frequency coordinating organization, they are a repeater frequency coordinating 
organization.
Some of the frequency listed in the plan below ARE on the FM Simplex 
frequencies. Others, such as 146.44 are close enough to a FM simplex to cause 
more pain than if they were on a FM simplex. (A D-STAR signal in half of the 
pass band of a FM receiver is a PITA!) SERA seems to think that an 
indiscriminate overlay of digital 20 kHz frequencies over a 30/15 kHz existing 
spacing won't cause a problem.

That aside, 146.52 is commonly accepted as the national FM simplex frequency / 
National Calling Channel. Any long term occupation of 146.52 is not in 
accordance with the gentleman's agreement by which it was created.

The other simplex frequencies, in my book are much more open for fair game. 
Most D-STAR radios have the ability to decode either FM or D-STAR. This feature 
should be used when operating on any frequency not established as a standard 
D-STAR frequency. And from there, standard rules should apply. If the channel 
has FM listeners, be nice and go somewhere else. If not, I feel that it is fair 
use.

While we, as D-STAR users need to work hard to keep from being known as those 
"radios that just cause racket with obnoxious operators who don't care" But on 
the other hand, FM allocations have sucked up essentially every bit of the 2M 
spectrum and this should be shared.

The existing regulations and agreements only tend to show how narrow-sighted 
many were when drafting the agreements. SERA for example has listed a 
"Narrowband FM Digital Repeater" segment of the band. There's a little 
terminology problem with FM and Digital in the same phrase. I believe I know 
what it's intent was, AX.25 Packet, but to have 18 frequencies set aside for 
duplex packet is ridiculous. My guess is that there's only been may a couple in 
the SERA region ever. So where do they put D-STAR? Splinter channels. Arrggghhh!

Ed WA4YIH

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of David
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:05 PM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex



In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet.

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.1125, 441.1250, 441.1375, 441.1500, 441.1625, 441.1750

For other areas contact you band plan coordinator (and not a mailing list).

--- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, 
Gary Pearce KN4AQ mailto:kn...@...>> wrote:
>
> At 10:23 AM 4/20/2010, cybersapient wrote:
> >I'm surprised you didn't suggest that the analog FM users on simplex
> >simply put a PL tone on- it works in simplex, as well, you know.
>
> Hi, Shane,
>
> PL (CTCSS) "works" on simplex technically, of course. But it's not feasible
> logistically.
>
> CTCSS requires what I'll call a "cooperative effort" - everybody has to
> know and agree to use it, and agree on a specific tone frequency. On analog
> repeaters, cooperation is mandated, at least to access the repeater.
> Keeping your own receiver quiet by using tone decode is your choice.
>
> Do you think that kind of cooperative effort is possible across a broad
> range of simplex users (such as you'll find on 146.58, or any of the
> band-plan simplex channels)?
>
> Do you think it can be imposed on simplex operators, as in, "Don't like my
> D-STAR digital hash? Well, use CTCSS and don't bother me again."? (Do you
> know how many hams don't even know what D-STAR IS yet?)
>
> That contains all the ingredients you need for a range war, and everybody
> loses.
>
> Separate spectrum exists for simplex (while it is very had to come by for
> repeaters). Let's use it, and be good neighbors. We will have to be aware
> of packet or other digital activity in the 145.5-145.8 region, and dodge
> that when we find it.
>
> 
> bruce mallon mailto:wa4...@...>> wrote:
>
> >STAY OFF KNOWN SIMPLEX FREQUENCIES ! It's that simple.
>
> Closer, Bruce, but here's the rub. Simplex channels (or, what I think you
> really meant is "known simplex USE") are "known" mostly by the people using
> them regularly, not by the general population surrounding them.
>
> Here in my medium-size area (Raleigh-Durham NC, 29th TV market, ~1,000,000
> population demographic), various clubs and ARES groups have suggested that
> their members use of one or another simplex channel. There are some ad-hoc
> groups of hams who end up on one channel for weeks, month

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Woodrick, Ed]

Maybe not in your part of the country, but 146.42, 147.42, 147.48 are standards 
according to the ancient ARRL band plan.

The ARRL band plan has 146.40-146.58 and 147.42-147.57 listed as Simplex. The 
primary simplex channels are the 30 kHz channels with 15 kHz splinter channels 
available.

146.40, .43, .46, .49, .52, .55, .58 and 147.42, .45, .48, .51, .54, .57 are 
the primary simplex channels and
146.415, .445, .475, .505, .535, .565 and 147.435, .465, .495, .525, .555 are 
the splinter channels

SERA plans fits into the existing plan like a bull in a china shop.

Oh, and SERA changed the simplex channels without telling the simplex users to 
move!

Ed WA4YIH

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of bruce mallon
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:17 PM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


NONE of them are on KNOWN  FM SIMPLEX FREQUENCIES 
[http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/33.gif]


In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet.

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.1125, 441.1250, 441.1375, 441.1500, 441.1625, 441.1750

For other areas contact you band plan coordinator (and not a mailing list).

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[bruce mallon]

HERE in TAMPA BAY .
 
146.520 and 147.550 are used all others have little activity on them
I in 40 years of being on 2 meters here can't remember any normal use of any 
others
As long as a efford is made to AVOID the common ones and KNOWN net frequencies 
like 147.550 there is no problem  That said ..
 
ECHO LINK in Orlando uses 147.550 and transmits over the top of the net here 
 I have a good 2 meter station they know the net is on but they just don't 
care using a tone to not have to hear the stations.
 
This is what the DIGI USERS  need to  try and avoid you don't make friends or 
win over people this way.
 
Bruce


--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Woodrick, Ed  wrote:


From: Woodrick, Ed 
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: "dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com" 
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 1:38 PM


  





David,
 
Just because SERA published it, doesn’t mean that it is true. (or in more 
specifically, should be used). SERA will be quick to say that they aren’t a 
frequency coordinating organization, they are a repeater frequency coordinating 
organization.
Some of the frequency listed in the plan below ARE on the FM Simplex 
frequencies. Others, such as 146.44 are close enough to a FM simplex to cause 
more pain than if they were on a FM simplex. (A D-STAR signal in half of the 
pass band of a FM receiver is a PITA!) SERA seems to think that an 
indiscriminate overlay of digital 20 kHz frequencies over a 30/15 kHz existing 
spacing won’t cause a problem.
 
That aside, 146.52 is commonly accepted as the national FM simplex frequency / 
National Calling Channel. Any long term occupation of 146.52 is not in 
accordance with the gentleman’s agreement by which it was created. 
 
The other simplex frequencies, in my book are much more open for fair game. 
Most D-STAR radios have the ability to decode either FM or D-STAR. This feature 
should be used when operating on any frequency not established as a standard 
D-STAR frequency. And from there, standard rules should apply. If the channel 
has FM listeners, be nice and go somewhere else. If not, I feel that it is fair 
use.
 
While we, as D-STAR users need to work hard to keep from being known as those 
“radios that just cause racket with obnoxious operators who don’t care” But on 
the other hand, FM allocations have sucked up essentially every bit of the 2M 
spectrum and this should be shared.
 
The existing regulations and agreements only tend to show how narrow-sighted 
many were when drafting the agreements. SERA for example has listed a 
“Narrowband FM Digital Repeater” segment of the band. There’s a little 
terminology problem with FM and Digital in the same phrase. I believe I know 
what it’s intent was, AX.25 Packet, but to have 18 frequencies set aside for 
duplex packet is ridiculous. My guess is that there’s only been may a couple in 
the SERA region ever. So where do they put D-STAR? Splinter channels. 
Arrggghhh! 
 
Ed WA4YIH
 


From: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:dstar_ digi...@yahoogro ups.com] 
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:05 PM
To: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
 
  



In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet. 

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.1125, 441.1250, 441.1375, 441.1500, 441.1625, 441.1750

For other areas contact you band plan coordinator (and not a mailing list).

--- In dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com, Gary Pearce KN4AQ  wrote:
>
> At 10:23 AM 4/20/2010, cybersapient wrote:
> >I'm surprised you didn't suggest that the analog FM users on simplex 
> >simply put a PL tone on- it works in simplex, as well, you know.
> 
> Hi, Shane,
> 
> PL (CTCSS) "works" on simplex technically, of course. But it's not feasible 
> logistically.
> 
> CTCSS requires what I'll call a "cooperative effort" - everybody has to 
> know and agree to use it, and agree on a specific tone frequency. On analog 
> repeaters, cooperation is mandated, at least to access the repeater. 
> Keeping your own receiver quiet by using tone decode is your choice.
> 
> Do you think that kind of cooperative effort is possible across a broad 
> range of simplex users (such as you'll find on 146.58, or any of the 
> band-plan simplex channels)?
> 
> Do you think it can be imposed on simplex operators, as in, "Don't like my 
> D-STAR digital hash? Well, use CTCSS and don't bother me again."? (Do you 
> know how many ha

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Donald Jacob]

NO, Its GMSK.
Unless you just want to use semantics and start a "discussion"

You should try to find a channel here is Southern California...!

73
Don  WB5EKU


On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, David  wrote:

>
>
> D-STAR is FM isn't it. So "FM digital" simply means d-star.
>
>
> --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Woodrick, Ed"  wrote:
>
> > The existing regulations and agreements only tend to show how
> narrow-sighted many were when drafting the agreements. SERA for example has
> listed a "Narrowband FM Digital Repeater" segment of the band. There's a
> little terminology problem with FM and Digital in the same phrase. I believe
> I know what it's intent was, AX.25 Packet, but to have 18 frequencies set
> aside for duplex packet is ridiculous. My guess is that there's only been
> may a couple in the SERA region ever. So where do they put D-STAR? Splinter
> channels. Arrggghhh!
>
>  
>

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Nate Duehr]

On 4/20/2010 2:26 PM, David wrote:


D-STAR is FM isn't it. So "FM digital" simply means d-star.


No, it's GMSK.

Start speaking in the much more detailed emission types, that the FCC 
uses, and all of this "confusion" about marketing jargon goes away...


"8K0F1D" gets the point across better, when planning spectrum utilization.

(If you're trying to COPY the signal, that's a completely different 
specification than how much spectrum it requires and where it belongs in 
a bandplan... although there are still issues like not putting 
square-wave modulation types up against analog... Nextel vs. Public 
Safety, anyone?)


Our local frequency coordinators are VERY clear, and use the emission 
mask/type designators on our local bandplans.  One can pull up the PDF's 
and see exactly where 8K0F1D belongs in our spectrum here locally.


And, for all the frequency coordination group "bashing" that goes on, 
most coordinators welcome input and volunteers to do the real, and 
sometimes difficult work, of coming up with reasonable plans.  Treading 
the minefield of how to properly de-coordinate paper repeaters when past 
GENERATIONS of coordinators didn't put the rules into the local by-laws, 
means YEARS of changes, votes, and cooperation between spectrum users.


Unless someone has shown up at every meeting for years, volunteered for 
the job, and done it... their opinions can be heard, but hold far less 
weight than those actively working on the problems, in my not-so-humble 
opinion.


With some (retards) being willing to file lawsuits at the drop of a hat, 
and putting your PERSONAL assets at risk when you're volunteering in 
leadership organizations these days, (thus the expense of carrying your 
own umbrella liability policy besides the group having such, and they'd 
BETTER have it... lawsuits and lawyers are expensive), and the 
possibility always there of a major disruption to your life by a 
(dumb-ass's) lawsuit... finding qualified people who'll work the HARD 
and/or controversial issues is a difficult sell, at best.


There's also virtually zero guidance from any national organization 
(Thanks for nothing ARRL -- ever think about updating your bandplans and 
backing the recommendations with reasonable arguments that would help 
sway the mess of different bandplans at VHF and above back to a national 
STANDARD?!).


Only the brightest and most stubborn need apply.  And there's plenty of 
stubborn folks out there who refuse to help, too... and make all SORTS 
of excuses about it.


In other words, anyone can be a "whiner in their recliner" or they can 
get involved.  This stuff doesn't work on, or fix, itself.  Generally 
coordination body complaints can be filed directly in File 13 unless 
you're willing to help out.  My opinion, anyway...


Nate WY0X

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Woodrick, Ed]

And in the Atlanta area, the usage is different, very different.
There are some major simplex nets on some of the other frequencies.

Ed WA4YIH

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of bruce mallon
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:27 PM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


HERE in TAMPA BAY .

146.520 and 147.550 are used all others have little activity on them
I in 40 years of being on 2 meters here can't remember any normal use of any 
others
As long as a efford is made to AVOID the common ones and KNOWN net frequencies 
like 147.550 there is no problem  That said ..

ECHO LINK in Orlando uses 147.550 and transmits over the top of the net here 
 I have a good 2 meter station they know the net is on but they just don't 
care using a tone to not have to hear the stations.

This is what the DIGI USERS  need to  try and avoid you don't make friends or 
win over people this way.

Bruce


--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Woodrick, Ed 
mailto:ewoodr...@ed-com.com>> wrote:

From: Woodrick, Ed mailto:ewoodr...@ed-com.com>>
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: "dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com<mailto:dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com>" 
mailto:dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com>>
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 1:38 PM

David,

Just because SERA published it, doesn’t mean that it is true. (or in more 
specifically, should be used). SERA will be quick to say that they aren’t a 
frequency coordinating organization, they are a repeater frequency coordinating 
organization.
Some of the frequency listed in the plan below ARE on the FM Simplex 
frequencies. Others, such as 146.44 are close enough to a FM simplex to cause 
more pain than if they were on a FM simplex. (A D-STAR signal in half of the 
pass band of a FM receiver is a PITA!) SERA seems to think that an 
indiscriminate overlay of digital 20 kHz frequencies over a 30/15 kHz existing 
spacing won’t cause a problem.

That aside, 146.52 is commonly accepted as the national FM simplex frequency / 
National Calling Channel. Any long term occupation of 146.52 is not in 
accordance with the gentleman’s agreement by which it was created.

The other simplex frequencies, in my book are much more open for fair game. 
Most D-STAR radios have the ability to decode either FM or D-STAR. This feature 
should be used when operating on any frequency not established as a standard 
D-STAR frequency. And from there, standard rules should apply. If the channel 
has FM listeners, be nice and go somewhere else. If not, I feel that it is fair 
use.

While we, as D-STAR users need to work hard to keep from being known as those 
“radios that just cause racket with obnoxious operators who don’t care” But on 
the other hand, FM allocations have sucked up essentially every bit of the 2M 
spectrum and this should be shared.

The existing regulations and agreements only tend to show how narrow-sighted 
many were when drafting the agreements. SERA for example has listed a 
“Narrowband FM Digital Repeater” segment of the band. There’s a little 
terminology problem with FM and Digital in the same phrase. I believe I know 
what it’s intent was, AX.25 Packet, but to have 18 frequencies set aside for 
duplex packet is ridiculous. My guess is that there’s only been may a couple in 
the SERA region ever. So where do they put D-STAR? Splinter channels. Arrggghhh!

Ed WA4YIH

From: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:dstar_ digi...@yahoogro ups.com] 
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:05 PM
To: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet.

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.1125, 441.1250, 441.1375, 441.1500, 441.1625, 441.1750

For other areas contact you band plan coordinator (and not a mailing list).

--- In dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. 
com<http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dstar_digital%40yahoogroups.com>,
 Gary Pearce KN4AQ 
http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kn...@...>> wrote:
>
> At 10:23 AM 4/20/2010, cybersapient wrote:
> >I'm surprised you didn't suggest that the analog FM users on simplex
> >simply put a PL tone on- it works in simplex, as well, you know.
>
> Hi, Shane,
>
> PL (CTCSS) "works" on simplex technically, of course. But it's not feasible
> logistically.
>
> CTCSS requires what I'll call a "cooperative effort

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[J. Moen]

Nate,

I agree with most everything in your note, but I'd like to extend it a little.  
Main message -- hopefully coordinators are interested in the needs and ideas of 
repeater users.

I'm not a repeater owner or trustee, just a "user."  And I've come to 
appreciate how difficult the coordination job is. Most hams also don't realize 
the technical knowledge needed to be a good repeater operator, and this is even 
more true for the coordinators.  Usually, these coordinators are quite active 
Hams, so they are aware of usage patterns and issues in their region.

On the other hand, typically coordinator organizations are made up of repeater 
operators, and the Bylaws and policies target repeater people, not "users" like 
me.  But I hope these coordinators also think of themselves as providing a 
"service" to all Hams in their region, and through them, to the greater 
community.  

A key success factor for any service provider is a willingness to listen to 
those they serve.  So yes, since I'm not one of them and haven't done the job, 
I can understand why my ideas would hold " far less weight than those actively 
working on the problems".  At the same time, I hope they'd be interested in the 
needs of their Ham community, and not automatically reject any idea unless it 
comes from someone who does or has done coordination.

Note: I live in an area where there are no available 2 meter pairs available, 
and requests are queued up for years.  At the same time, there are coordinated 
repeaters with extremely low use,and not all of them are associated with active 
EmComm groups who need the repeaters for occasional training exercises and real 
emergencies.  Undoubtedly there are also some paper repeaters.  Last year, the 
coordination organization voted for no change to the current channel plan for 
at least three years.  I hope that during these three years, the organization 
will look at various ways to reduce channel spacing in parts of the repeater 
portions, and possibly to set some small areas aside for narrow-band modes.  
I've seen no stated interest in "de-coordinating" repeaters that experience 
little or no use.  

I do not envy their job.

   Jim - K6JM
  - Original Message - 
  From: Nate Duehr 
  To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


On 4/20/2010 2:26 PM, David wrote: 
D-STAR is FM isn't it. So "FM digital" simply means d-star.


  No, it's GMSK.

  Start speaking in the much more detailed emission types, that the FCC uses, 
and all of this "confusion" about marketing jargon goes away... 

  "8K0F1D" gets the point across better, when planning spectrum utilization.  

  (If you're trying to COPY the signal, that's a completely different 
specification than how much spectrum it requires and where it belongs in a 
bandplan... although there are still issues like not putting square-wave 
modulation types up against analog... Nextel vs. Public Safety, anyone?)

  Our local frequency coordinators are VERY clear, and use the emission 
mask/type designators on our local bandplans.  One can pull up the PDF's and 
see exactly where 8K0F1D belongs in our spectrum here locally.

  And, for all the frequency coordination group "bashing" that goes on, most 
coordinators welcome input and volunteers to do the real, and sometimes 
difficult work, of coming up with reasonable plans.  Treading the minefield of 
how to properly de-coordinate paper repeaters when past GENERATIONS of 
coordinators didn't put the rules into the local by-laws, means YEARS of 
changes, votes, and cooperation between spectrum users.

  Unless someone has shown up at every meeting for years, volunteered for the 
job, and done it... their opinions can be heard, but hold far less weight than 
those actively working on the problems, in my not-so-humble opinion.

  With some (retards) being willing to file lawsuits at the drop of a hat, and 
putting your PERSONAL assets at risk when you're volunteering in leadership 
organizations these days, (thus the expense of carrying your own umbrella 
liability policy besides the group having such, and they'd BETTER have it... 
lawsuits and lawyers are expensive), and the possibility always there of a 
major disruption to your life by a (dumb-ass's) lawsuit... finding qualified 
people who'll work the HARD and/or controversial issues is a difficult sell, at 
best.  

  There's also virtually zero guidance from any national organization (Thanks 
for nothing ARRL -- ever think about updating your bandplans and backing the 
recommendations with reasonable arguments that would help sway the mess of 
different bandplans at VHF and above back to a national STANDARD?!).

  Only the brightest and mos

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[David Holman]

Gary,
 
DV does sound rather nasty on FM.  The other suggestion would be to set the 
DStar radios to auto detect and then have all the analog guys set a PL tone.  
The only thing they would hear would be the analog voice.  The DStar radios 
would then be able to do both and there wouldn't be a lot of flipping back and 
forth.  
 
Either way... 
 
73
 
David, AC7DS

--- On Mon, 4/19/10, Gary Pearce KN4AQ  wrote:


From: Gary Pearce KN4AQ 
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 3:01 PM


  



At 10:29 AM 4/19/2010, john_ke5c wrote:

> Nothing that would prevent you from making and scoring points using DV 
> Simplex.

If anyone seriously plans on using VHF simplex DStar during Field Day, a 
simplex frequency other than 146.520 might be agree upon? Perhaps 146.580? 

First, the rules for all ARRL contests and Field Day prohibit using 146.52 for 
making contacts.

As for 146.58, well, here's something to keep in mind to avoid having D-STAR 
get a really bad reputation among analog simplex users: 

Stay off the analog simplex channels!

It's a courtesy thing, not a rules thing (other than that amorphous "good 
amateur practice" deal). On an analog receiver, a D-STAR signal sounds like 
"open squelch," a fairly loud rushing sound. So it is pretty much impossible to 
share a simplex channel between analog and digital users. The D-STAR users 
won't have a problem. They'll hear either nothing (auto-detect turned off), or 
they may hear the analog signal normally (auto-detect turned on). The analog 
users can do nothing to prevent hearing the D-STAR Wsh, short of leaving 
the frequency. And that will make them very unhappy indeed.

This is worse than mixing it up among repeaters, where tone access can at least 
mitigate the problem some. We can't expect all simplex users to begin using 
tone encode/decode to avoid hearing our D-STAR signals.

The solution: separate spectrum. In much of the country, the spectrum between 
145.5 and 145.8 is already "digital," albeit for packet. 145.67 has been 
informally adopted for D-STAR simplex in areas where there is no incumbent 
packet system.

So for Field Day, I suggest 145.67 unless you have packet activity in your 
area. Attention Minnesota! 145.67 is used for a statewide packet system.

73,
Gary KN4AQ




ARVN: Amateur Radio//Video News
Gary Pearce KN4AQ
508 Spencer Crest Ct.
Cary, NC 27513
kn...@arvideonews. com
919-380-9944
www.ARVideoNews. com 







  

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[bruce mallon]

Ed
 
Which ones are in use ?

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Woodrick, Ed  wrote:


From: Woodrick, Ed 
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: "dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com" 
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 5:42 PM


  





And in the Atlanta area, the usage is different, very different. 
There are some major simplex nets on some of the other frequencies.
 
Ed WA4YIH
 


From: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:dstar_ digi...@yahoogro ups.com] 
On Behalf Of bruce mallon
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:27 PM
To: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
 
  








HERE in TAMPA BAY .

 

146.520 and 147.550 are used all others have little activity on them

I in 40 years of being on 2 meters here can't remember any normal use of any 
others

As long as a efford is made to AVOID the common ones and KNOWN net frequencies 
like 147.550 there is no problem  That said ..

 

ECHO LINK in Orlando uses 147.550 and transmits over the top of the net here 
 I have a good 2 meter station they know the net is on but they just don't 
care using a tone to not have to hear the stations.

 

This is what the DIGI USERS  need to  try and avoid you don't make friends or 
win over people this way.

 

Bruce



--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Woodrick, Ed  wrote:


From: Woodrick, Ed 
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: "dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com" 
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 1:38 PM

  



David,
 
Just because SERA published it, doesn’t mean that it is true. (or in more 
specifically, should be used). SERA will be quick to say that they aren’t a 
frequency coordinating organization, they are a repeater frequency coordinating 
organization.
Some of the frequency listed in the plan below ARE on the FM Simplex 
frequencies. Others, such as 146.44 are close enough to a FM simplex to cause 
more pain than if they were on a FM simplex. (A D-STAR signal in half of the 
pass band of a FM receiver is a PITA!) SERA seems to think that an 
indiscriminate overlay of digital 20 kHz frequencies over a 30/15 kHz existing 
spacing won’t cause a problem.
  
That aside, 146.52 is commonly accepted as the national FM simplex frequency / 
National Calling Channel. Any long term occupation of 146.52 is not in 
accordance with the gentleman’s agreement by which it was created. 
  
The other simplex frequencies, in my book are much more open for fair game. 
Most D-STAR radios have the ability to decode either FM or D-STAR. This feature 
should be used when operating on any frequency not established as a standard 
D-STAR frequency. And from there, standard rules should apply. If the channel 
has FM listeners, be nice and go somewhere else. If not, I feel that it is fair 
use. 
  
While we, as D-STAR users need to work hard to keep from being known as those 
“radios that just cause racket with obnoxious operators who don’t care” But on 
the other hand, FM allocations have sucked up essentially every bit of the 2M 
spectrum and this should be shared. 
  
The existing regulations and agreements only tend to show how narrow-sighted 
many were when drafting the agreements. SERA for example has listed a 
“Narrowband FM Digital Repeater” segment of the band. There’s a little 
terminology problem with FM and Digital in the same phrase. I believe I know 
what it’s intent was, AX.25 Packet, but to have 18 frequencies set aside for 
duplex packet is ridiculous. My guess is that there’s only been may a couple in 
the SERA region ever. So where do they put D-STAR? Splinter channels. 
Arrggghhh! 
  
Ed WA4YIH 
  


From: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:dstar_ digi...@yahoogro ups.com] 
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:05 PM
To: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
  
  




In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet. 

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.1125, 441.1250, 441.1375, 441.1500, 441.1625, 441.1750

For other areas contact you band plan coordinator (and not a mailing list).

--- In dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com, Gary Pearce KN4AQ  wrote:
>
> At 10:23 AM 4/20/2010, cybersapient wrote:
> >I'm surprised you didn't suggest that the analog FM users on simplex 
> >simply put a PL tone on- it works in simplex, as well, you know.
> 
> Hi, Shane,
> 
> PL (CTCSS) "works" on simplex technically, of course. But it's not feasible 
> logistically.
> 
> CTCSS requires what I'll 

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Gary Pearce KN4AQ]

At 06:43 PM 4/20/2010, David Holman wrote:
The other suggestion would be to set the DStar radios to auto detect and 
then have all the analog guys set a PL tone.


Hi, David,

I think I covered this in a previous reply, but I'll add two things:

Getting simplex users to all do something together is like herding cats.

Analog and digital live well together on P-25 repeaters, which are 
generally dual mode. The analog users depend on tone decode to keep from 
hearing the equally harsh P-25 digital sound. So the concept is solid. I 
just don't think you can apply it to simplex users.


73,
Gary KN4AQ


ARVN: Amateur Radio//Video News
Gary Pearce KN4AQ
508 Spencer Crest Ct.
Cary, NC 27513
kn...@arvideonews.com
919-380-9944
www.ARVideoNews.com  

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[bruce mallon]

ANY digital on simplex is going to start a cat fight 

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Gary Pearce KN4AQ  wrote:


From: Gary Pearce KN4AQ 
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 11:31 PM


  



At 06:43 PM 4/20/2010, David Holman wrote:

The other suggestion would be to set the DStar radios to auto detect and then 
have all the analog guys set a PL tone.  
Hi, David,

I think I covered this in a previous reply, but I'll add two things:

Getting simplex users to all do something together is like herding cats.

Analog and digital live well together on P-25 repeaters, which are generally 
dual mode. The analog users depend on tone decode to keep from hearing the 
equally harsh P-25 digital sound. So the concept is solid. I just don't think 
you can apply it to simplex users.

73,
Gary KN4AQ


ARVN: Amateur Radio//Video News
Gary Pearce KN4AQ
508 Spencer Crest Ct.
Cary, NC 27513
kn...@arvideonews. com
919-380-9944
www.ARVideoNews. com 







  

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Nate Duehr]

On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:31 PM, Gary Pearce KN4AQ wrote:
> Analog and digital live well together on P-25 repeaters, which are generally 
> dual mode. The analog users depend on tone decode to keep from hearing the 
> equally harsh P-25 digital sound. So the concept is solid. I just don't think 
> you can apply it to simplex users.

Actually, our only dual-mode P25 repeater around here went by the wayside, 
because the digital users got tired of the non-CTCSS understanding analog users 
keying up in analog in the middle of a QSO to ask "What's wrong with the 
repeater?!"...

I think you give analog users too much credit.  LOL! :-)

The owner put an analog repeater on the original UHF pair, got another UHF pair 
for the digital and segregated them.  Heh.

--
Nate Duehr, WY0X
n...@natetech.com

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Nate Duehr]

On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, bruce mallon wrote:

> ANY digital on simplex is going to start a cat fight 

S... don't let the APRS or other Packet guys know that, okay? :-)

--
Nate Duehr, WY0X
n...@natetech.com

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Tony Langdon]

>Actually, our only dual-mode P25 repeater around here went by the 
>wayside, because the digital users got tired of the non-CTCSS 
>understanding analog users keying up in analog in the middle of a 
>QSO to ask "What's wrong with the repeater?!"...

That's the problem I see with dual mode.  Dual mode can work in a 
small community with clueful users (or who at least know each other 
and keep in touch with local happenings).  It would work on my 
repeater here, because I'm the main user, but wouldn't do it on a 
busy repeater.

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Tony Langdon]

At 03:30 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:
>WOW- I sure poked an ant bed here, didn't I
>
>My point is DSTAR can operate SIMPLEX, as that is what I thought the 
>point was for field day. Now assuming we're talking about SIMPLEX, 
>one could SHARE a SIMPLEX frequency with all the other hams out there.

Not without a lot of annoyance for a bunch of reasons.

>Hams are a pretty intelligent lot- they passed at least one or two 
>exams to get an operators

Well, some are, some aren't so bright, when it comes to 
practicalities.  The ham exam is like a driving test.  A driving test 
doesn't make you a racing car driver, it just means you (in theory) 
have enough knowledge to be able to avoid trouble and play nicely 
with other drivers.  The real learning happens AFTER you pass the 
test.  The ham exam is more so, and it has nothing about sorting 
things out in the real world.  We learn that through experience 
(experimentation, trial and error, etc) and sharing knowledge.

>license. Hams are supposed to be resourceful people, as well, aren't 
>they? I don't know how hard it would be for folks in a local area to 
>say, as one person here suggested- use a PL tone for all the analog 
>FM folks- pick something magical, like 100Hz PL tone. Everyone turns 
>on their PL, and no one has to hear any MSK modulation whatsoever. 
>The DSTAR folks would run in automatic mode, and could hear the 
>analog FM operators, and even make contact with them. DSTAR folks 
>can talk with the other DSTAR folks, as well.

OK, problems (or challenges):

1.  Disemminating the tone information.  How to you get through to 
all hams, including those who only haul their gear out for Field Day?

2.  Those who use various old radios that don't have CTCSS.

3.  Mutual interference.  You may not hear the D-STAR stations on FM, 
but they are there and are wiping out the weak station you're trying 
to work.  This sort of mixing modes creates a MASSIVE hidden station 
effect.  Of course, the D-STAR users can set their radio to auto 
detect, which helps part of the problem, but the FM users don't know 
the D-STAR ones are there, unless they look at the S meter.

4.  In a real emergency, modes would be segregated by whoever is 
coordinating communications, so they should be segregated on Field 
Day ("train as you play").

5.  Some people are especially annoyed by different modes "intruding" 
on their patch.  You ARE going to create a bunfight with this one.

Unlike the US, Australia (through the WIA) did step in early and add 
D-STAR to the national band plan, so down here, we know the best 
parts of the band to play D-STAR on simplex. :)


>DSTAR uses FM transmission mode to transmit GMSK (Gausian 
>Minimum-Shift Keying) signaling.

That's like saying 1200bps packet or AFSK RTTY and analog FM are 
alike (and they're probably more alike than D-STAR and F3E in some ways!). :)


>The point is here we need cooperation. Again Field Day is about 
>getting a message across.

And having incompatible modes on the same frequency is NOT the way to 
do it! :)

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[bruce mallon]

Morning Tony
 
That was MY point keep d-star and digital OFF the standard simplex frequencies.
NOW we all know that can be a problem SO  Why not get the ARRL to hold a 
vote of WHICH frequencies are most used by FM ?
 
Likr here in Tampabay Florida ... 
 
We use 146.52 and 147.550 but little is on most others like 146.55, 146.58 
 
IF nation wide lets say 146.58 is little used then work  things out to put 
D-Star/digital on that frequency and allow the locals to work things out maybe 
placing d-star on a back up one in that location ?
 
Lets not see the cat fight that the 200khz wide digital boys started back a few 
years ago 
 
Just my input as a long time 2 meter ham .
 
Bruce ( el-87 )


--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Tony Langdon  wrote:


From: Tony Langdon 
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 2:00 AM


  



At 03:30 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:
>WOW- I sure poked an ant bed here, didn't I
>
>My point is DSTAR can operate SIMPLEX, as that is what I thought the 
>point was for field day. Now assuming we're talking about SIMPLEX, 
>one could SHARE a SIMPLEX frequency with all the other hams out there.

Not without a lot of annoyance for a bunch of reasons.

>Hams are a pretty intelligent lot- they passed at least one or two 
>exams to get an operators

Well, some are, some aren't so bright, when it comes to 
practicalities. The ham exam is like a driving test. A driving test 
doesn't make you a racing car driver, it just means you (in theory) 
have enough knowledge to be able to avoid trouble and play nicely 
with other drivers. The real learning happens AFTER you pass the 
test. The ham exam is more so, and it has nothing about sorting 
things out in the real world. We learn that through experience 
(experimentation, trial and error, etc) and sharing knowledge.

>license. Hams are supposed to be resourceful people, as well, aren't 
>they? I don't know how hard it would be for folks in a local area to 
>say, as one person here suggested- use a PL tone for all the analog 
>FM folks- pick something magical, like 100Hz PL tone. Everyone turns 
>on their PL, and no one has to hear any MSK modulation whatsoever. 
>The DSTAR folks would run in automatic mode, and could hear the 
>analog FM operators, and even make contact with them. DSTAR folks 
>can talk with the other DSTAR folks, as well.

OK, problems (or challenges):

1. Disemminating the tone information. How to you get through to 
all hams, including those who only haul their gear out for Field Day?

2. Those who use various old radios that don't have CTCSS.

3. Mutual interference. You may not hear the D-STAR stations on FM, 
but they are there and are wiping out the weak station you're trying 
to work. This sort of mixing modes creates a MASSIVE hidden station 
effect. Of course, the D-STAR users can set their radio to auto 
detect, which helps part of the problem, but the FM users don't know 
the D-STAR ones are there, unless they look at the S meter.

4. In a real emergency, modes would be segregated by whoever is 
coordinating communications, so they should be segregated on Field 
Day ("train as you play").

5. Some people are especially annoyed by different modes "intruding" 
on their patch. You ARE going to create a bunfight with this one.

Unlike the US, Australia (through the WIA) did step in early and add 
D-STAR to the national band plan, so down here, we know the best 
parts of the band to play D-STAR on simplex. :)

>DSTAR uses FM transmission mode to transmit GMSK (Gausian 
>Minimum-Shift Keying) signaling.

That's like saying 1200bps packet or AFSK RTTY and analog FM are 
alike (and they're probably more alike than D-STAR and F3E in some ways!). :)

>The point is here we need cooperation. Again Field Day is about 
>getting a message across.

And having incompatible modes on the same frequency is NOT the way to 
do it! :)

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio. com









  

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Tony Langdon]

At 08:06 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:


>Morning Tony
>
>That was MY point keep d-star and digital OFF the standard simplex 
>frequencies.
>NOW we all know that can be a problem SO  Why not get the ARRL 
>to hold a vote of WHICH frequencies are most used by FM ?

Well, D-STAR needs to go somewhere, and the ARRL should be taking a 
leadership role over there.

>
>Likr here in Tampabay Florida ...
>
>We use 146.52 and 147.550 but little is on most others like 146.55, 
>146.58 

Interestingly enough, Australia is normally considered a "backwater", 
but here in Melbourrne, it's actually quite hard to find a free FM 
simplex frequency some nights.  A combination of geographic and 
cultural factors lead to this.  Geographically, Melbourne is 
relatively flat, so simplex works well over much of the 
city.  Culturally, clubs tend to congregate on various "club 
frequencies", which are often busy for extended periods with 
ragchewing.  Add several IRLP and Echolink simplex nodes, and 
frequencies run out rather rapidly.

Still, the WIA found some relatively unused frequencies in the packet 
radio segment, which were re-designated as D-STAR simplex.  Because 
we kept 25 kHz spacing, it's also possible to squeeze in between FM 
channels, if the recommended D-STAR frequencies are busy.

>  IF nation wide lets say 146.58 is little used then work  things 
> out to put D-Star/digital on that frequency and allow the locals to 
> work things out maybe placing d-star on a back up one in that location ?

That's something that should be looked into.  As I said, the WIA here 
does a reasonably good job of maintaining the band plans on a 
national basis.  I certainly find the US situation hard to follow by 
comparison.  In the cities, we follow the band plans closely.  In 
rural areas, things are a lot more open to local interpretation, 
because of the small number of hams in those areas.  I have been in 
areas where there were literally no others in FM range, without the 
aid of tropo - only parts of the band plans that matter there are 
satellites and the weak signal segment!  In such areas, FM users 
simply sit on 146.500 (national calling frequency), in case a passing 
mobile comes up.  While driving through a remote area, I heard 
someone calling on 146.500.  Turns out the guy driving the car behind 
me saw my antennas and took a punt that I was (1) a ham, and (2) 
listening on 146.500. :)

Now, I think it's a bit early to monitor 145.125 (national D-STAR 
calling frequency) while mobile in  remote areas, but one day that 
might happen down here.

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Woodrick, Ed]

I don’t have a specific list, Atlanta is a huge area. But I believe that 146.46 
has a major simplex net on it.

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of bruce mallon
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:18 PM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


Ed

Which ones are in use ?

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Woodrick, Ed  wrote:

From: Woodrick, Ed 
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: "dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com" 
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 5:42 PM

And in the Atlanta area, the usage is different, very different.
There are some major simplex nets on some of the other frequencies.

Ed WA4YIH

From: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:dstar_ digi...@yahoogro ups.com] 
On Behalf Of bruce mallon
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:27 PM
To: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


HERE in TAMPA BAY .

146.520 and 147.550 are used all others have little activity on them
I in 40 years of being on 2 meters here can't remember any normal use of any 
others
As long as a efford is made to AVOID the common ones and KNOWN net frequencies 
like 147.550 there is no problem  That said ..

ECHO LINK in Orlando uses 147.550 and transmits over the top of the net here 
 I have a good 2 meter station they know the net is on but they just don't 
care using a tone to not have to hear the stations.

This is what the DIGI USERS  need to  try and avoid you don't make friends or 
win over people this way.

Bruce


--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Woodrick, Ed http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ewoodr...@ed-com.com>> 
wrote:

From: Woodrick, Ed http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ewoodr...@ed-com.com>>
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: "dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. 
com<http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com>"
 http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com>>
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 1:38 PM

David,

Just because SERA published it, doesn’t mean that it is true. (or in more 
specifically, should be used). SERA will be quick to say that they aren’t a 
frequency coordinating organization, they are a repeater frequency coordinating 
organization.
Some of the frequency listed in the plan below ARE on the FM Simplex 
frequencies. Others, such as 146.44 are close enough to a FM simplex to cause 
more pain than if they were on a FM simplex. (A D-STAR signal in half of the 
pass band of a FM receiver is a PITA!) SERA seems to think that an 
indiscriminate overlay of digital 20 kHz frequencies over a 30/15 kHz existing 
spacing won’t cause a problem.

That aside, 146.52 is commonly accepted as the national FM simplex frequency / 
National Calling Channel. Any long term occupation of 146.52 is not in 
accordance with the gentleman’s agreement by which it was created.

The other simplex frequencies, in my book are much more open for fair game. 
Most D-STAR radios have the ability to decode either FM or D-STAR. This feature 
should be used when operating on any frequency not established as a standard 
D-STAR frequency. And from there, standard rules should apply. If the channel 
has FM listeners, be nice and go somewhere else. If not, I feel that it is fair 
use.

While we, as D-STAR users need to work hard to keep from being known as those 
“radios that just cause racket with obnoxious operators who don’t care” But on 
the other hand, FM allocations have sucked up essentially every bit of the 2M 
spectrum and this should be shared.

The existing regulations and agreements only tend to show how narrow-sighted 
many were when drafting the agreements. SERA for example has listed a 
“Narrowband FM Digital Repeater” segment of the band. There’s a little 
terminology problem with FM and Digital in the same phrase. I believe I know 
what it’s intent was, AX.25 Packet, but to have 18 frequencies set aside for 
duplex packet is ridiculous. My guess is that there’s only been may a couple in 
the SERA region ever. So where do they put D-STAR? Splinter channels. Arrggghhh!

Ed WA4YIH

From: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:dstar_ digi...@yahoogro ups.com] 
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:05 PM
To: dstar_digital@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


In the southeast, we have specific digital simplex frequencies coordinated as 
so by SERA. Please use them and not frequencies coordinated as packet.

FM digital simplex on 2m are:
146.420, 146.440, 146.460, 146.480, 147.420, 147.440, 147.460, 147.480

For 440 use these:
440.9125, 440.9250, 440.9375, 440.9500, 440.9625, 440.9750, 440.9875, 441., 
441.0125, 441.0250, 441.0375, 441.0500, 441.0625, 441.0750, 441.0875, 441.1000, 
441.

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex

[Woodrick, Ed]

So, go take a look at the SERA band plan and see which frequencies are listed 
for D-STAR simplex that’s also not listed as a repeater input or output. 
Actually go look for an FM frequency that’s not listed as a repeater input or 
output as well.

What? You say there aren’t any? 146.52 for FM and nothing for D-STAR?

What about the D-STAR repeater frequencies that don’t have D-STAR repeaters? 
We’ve got repeaters on most of them and will have repeaters on all of them 
before long.

If you want to talk D-STAR simplex on 2M, well, uh, hmmm, that’s a good 
question!  (for the SERA region and in particular Atlanta area)

Ed

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of bruce mallon
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 6:06 AM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex


Morning Tony

That was MY point keep d-star and digital OFF the standard simplex frequencies.
NOW we all know that can be a problem SO  Why not get the ARRL to hold a 
vote of WHICH frequencies are most used by FM ?

Likr here in Tampabay Florida ...

We use 146.52 and 147.550 but little is on most others like 146.55, 146.58 

IF nation wide lets say 146.58 is little used then work  things out to put 
D-Star/digital on that frequency and allow the locals to work things out maybe 
placing d-star on a back up one in that location ?

Lets not see the cat fight that the 200khz wide digital boys started back a few 
years ago

Just my input as a long time 2 meter ham .

Bruce ( el-87 )


--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Tony Langdon mailto:vk3...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:

From: Tony Langdon mailto:vk3...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: ARRL Field Day Rules - 145.67 simplex
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com<mailto:dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 2:00 AM

At 03:30 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:
>WOW- I sure poked an ant bed here, didn't I
>
>My point is DSTAR can operate SIMPLEX, as that is what I thought the
>point was for field day. Now assuming we're talking about SIMPLEX,
>one could SHARE a SIMPLEX frequency with all the other hams out there.

Not without a lot of annoyance for a bunch of reasons.

>Hams are a pretty intelligent lot- they passed at least one or two
>exams to get an operators

Well, some are, some aren't so bright, when it comes to
practicalities. The ham exam is like a driving test. A driving test
doesn't make you a racing car driver, it just means you (in theory)
have enough knowledge to be able to avoid trouble and play nicely
with other drivers. The real learning happens AFTER you pass the
test. The ham exam is more so, and it has nothing about sorting
things out in the real world. We learn that through experience
(experimentation, trial and error, etc) and sharing knowledge.

>license. Hams are supposed to be resourceful people, as well, aren't
>they? I don't know how hard it would be for folks in a local area to
>say, as one person here suggested- use a PL tone for all the analog
>FM folks- pick something magical, like 100Hz PL tone. Everyone turns
>on their PL, and no one has to hear any MSK modulation whatsoever.
>The DSTAR folks would run in automatic mode, and could hear the
>analog FM operators, and even make contact with them. DSTAR folks
>can talk with the other DSTAR folks, as well.

OK, problems (or challenges):

1. Disemminating the tone information. How to you get through to
all hams, including those who only haul their gear out for Field Day?

2. Those who use various old radios that don't have CTCSS.

3. Mutual interference. You may not hear the D-STAR stations on FM,
but they are there and are wiping out the weak station you're trying
to work. This sort of mixing modes creates a MASSIVE hidden station
effect. Of course, the D-STAR users can set their radio to auto
detect, which helps part of the problem, but the FM users don't know
the D-STAR ones are there, unless they look at the S meter.

4. In a real emergency, modes would be segregated by whoever is
coordinating communications, so they should be segregated on Field
Day ("train as you play").

5. Some people are especially annoyed by different modes "intruding"
on their patch. You ARE going to create a bunfight with this one.

Unlike the US, Australia (through the WIA) did step in early and add
D-STAR to the national band plan, so down here, we know the best
parts of the band to play D-STAR on simplex. :)

>DSTAR uses FM transmission mode to transmit GMSK (Gausian
>Minimum-Shift Keying) signaling.

That's like saying 1200bps packet or AFSK RTTY and analog FM are
alike (and they're probably more alike than D-STAR and F3E in some ways!). :)

>The point is here we need cooperation. Again Field Day is about
>getting a message across.

And having incompatible modes on the same frequency is NOT the way to
do it! :)

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio. com<http://vkradio.com/>