[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Bob]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Who can answer the question?  If the USD starts to collapse on
> Monday, where's the best place to hold wealth?

I wouldn't want it all in one place or form.

Bob

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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[SnowDog]

> Let's say Japan follows Argentina the way of the Dodo, and then a
> couple of other minor countries too.  Let's say the 'Great Reckoning'
> all happens and the USD goes to hell.  The credit cycle is over!
> Doom!

I don't understand. How do you envision this 'end-game' scenario coming
about? What do you see happening to the value of the USD, and how can it
significantly change in value? Moreover, if the USD becomes worthless, then
the advantage is to those who DO have mortgages, since they'll be able to
pay them off easily. Glory be to those in debt, when their debts become
worthless. And if the USD undergoes severe deflation, then the place to put
wealth would be in USD, since it will be undergoing the greatest long-term
gain.

SnowDog



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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[jpm]

>>  Let's say Japan follows Argentina the way of the Dodo, and then a
>>  couple of other minor countries too.  Let's say the 'Great Reckoning'
>>  all happens and the USD goes to hell.  The credit cycle is over!
>>  Doom!
>
>I don't understand. How do you envision this 'end-game' scenario coming
>about?

I don't know!


>  What do you see happening to the value of the USD, and how can it
>significantly change in value?

I don't know!  I don't entirely understand the mechanism in say 
Argentina or Weimar Germany!

Certainly, the USD (or anything) can "change value" significantly. 
(Eg, it is now worth 99% less than in was say before WW1.)



>  Moreover, if the USD becomes worthless, then
>the advantage is to those who DO have mortgages, since they'll be able to
>pay them off easily.


Fair enough -- that's what i was asking.

But what if you're suddenly only making say $100 a month instead of 
$1000 -- it would be hard to pay that mortgage!



>  Glory be to those in debt, when their debts become
>worthless. And if the USD undergoes severe deflation, then the place to put
>wealth would be in USD, since it will be undergoing the greatest long-term
>gain.
>
>SnowDog



-- 



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Most of the world's great religions are hijacked from time to time by
men who use the religious faith of others to manipulate them for self-
serving purposes. Environmentalism is different however. It is not a
religion that happens to be manipulated from time to time for political
purpose--for the power and money it can bring to its controllers.
Environmentalism is a religion which has been deliberately created, for
the sole purpose of manipulating its followers." Arthur B. Robinson, 2001.
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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Ben Legume]

If you have enough wealth to worry about such things, diversify your 
holdings! Put some in DGCs (more than 1), some in gold bars or coins, 
some in real estate, some in commodities, some in appropriate shares 
etc. If all else fails, buy canned goods, ammunition and LOTS of 
toilet paper and move into your subterrannean bunker. Then again, 
there are probably people on this list who have already done this.


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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[stevemaes]

Personally, I would prefer gold and silver coin.  Small, portable, and
they are nobody's liability.  DGC's are still someone's liability.  They
"owe" you the gold should you decide to "redeem".  As our legal profession
says, "possession is 9/10th's of the law".

Steve

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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Mark S. Ohberg]

SnowDog wrote:

> > Let's say the 'Great Reckoning'
> > all happens and the USD goes to hell.  The credit cycle is over!
> I don't understand. How do you envision this 'end-game' scenario coming
> about? What do you see happening to the value of the USD, and how can it
> significantly change in value?

The corruption in government which accompanies the continued use of our
unlawful monetary system rubs off onto the rest of us. A continuous loss
of buying power of the currency means more cunning, scheming, and sharp
dealing among the people if they want to prosper. It becomes him or me,
as worsening economic conditions force many businesses and individuals
to the wall.

Have you had to turn in your gun yet, your gold again?

Did you have to provide your Social Security account number for a recent
pizza delivery?

Did you have to remove your clothes to board an airoplane?

Did your Enron pure gas play 401K legally vaporize,  while your
terrorist account froze dead (seized)?

So these Federal Reserve checks are endorsed by the government,
deposited in a Federal Reserve bank, and used to pay government expenses
by checks which create the first wave of fiat (unbacked paper) money
that floods into the economy. Recipients deposit these checks into
commercial banks that are part of the Fed system. Here is where the real
inflationary action is.

Commercial banks, like the Federal Reserve, also create money out of
nothing - and collect interest on it - by multiplying every dollar
deposited nine times. This amazing feat is accomplished through the
device of fractional reserves. The Fed allows 90 percent of deposits to
be loaned out. As deposits become loans and loans become deposits, this
process repeats with smaller numbers each time around.

The Fed Res banking cartel creates an amount of money that is nine times
the amount of the original government debt that made the process
possible. When the original debt is added in, the Federal Reserve and
the commercial banks together have created approximately ten times the
amount of the underlying government debt. Since this newly created money
causes the purchasing power of all money to decline, the resulting rise
in prices is a hidden tax.

This system is doomed to fail in your life time, sooner than later.

He held his wealth in paper. Then came the dollars Doom. His caskets
lined with greenbacks and T-Bills mark his tomb.
Kind Regards.
Mark S. Öhberg

http://two-cents-worth.com/?107245&EG

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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Mark S. Ohberg]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> This is not correct banks do not lone out depositors money because it is a
> liability to the bank.
> It just creates credit out of thin air.  No ones account is reduced by any
> amount when the bank creates credit.
> Just so you know Banks can't lone out their assets either it is against the
> law, check it out.

Yes Jesus,
I concur, I just jumped in here, and would have to back up with my following
theory.  Or provide a first half.  I never meant to mean John Q public depositor
money.  That would be "illegal"
Every dollar deposited into commercial banks meant Federal Reserve check
deposits.  Just not worded correctly.

The lending of gold by central banks has increased the supply of gold to the
market by encouraging forward selling as a defense against weak prices. This
continues to depress prices further and encouraged investors to sell short in
the belief the price would go yet lower But this is as you know only Paper Gold.
A rush to fill contracts could never be fulfilled.

Here in the United States, The Federal Reserve is not federal, it has no
reserves, and it is not a bank. It is a pernicious cartel, operating against the
public interest. The real reason for its existence is the making of money out of
debt. This is a global e-gold list and if you do not care about the US, then I
ask you If you have heard of the IMF? same thing only bigger.

The act of borrowing by the federal government causes money to spring into
existence.  Open Market steps by which Treasury IOUs (bonds) are inverted by the
Federal Reserve into money through the issuance of Federal Reserve checks with
no money in existence to cover them; anyone else doing this would go to jail.

Congress has made this legal for the Fed because this little known process
allows US congressmen to enjoy unlimited revenue without having to visibly raise
taxes. Without this service, this monetary/political partnership would dissolve,
and the US Congress would abolish the Fed.  John F. Kennedy was assassinated for
playing hard ball with these fellas.

History shows the first act former Vice President Linden Johnson performed as
President, was to veto a bill which would have signed into law a new silver and
gold base circulating tender. Instead the JFK half dollar was issued in .36169
oz. pure silver. By the next year it was whittled down to Silver Clad at .1479
oz. silver. In 1971 all silver was eliminated.

The United States Founders asserted, in the Coinage Act of 1792, that any
official of the government found guilty of debasing the currency should suffer
death. Today, our currency has been depreciated by 1000 percent. The people have
been robbed, while the institution created to protect them winks and pockets its
share of the profits.

With creation of the Federal Reserve System in 1913, and destruction of the
constitutional monetary system based on silver and gold in the 1930s, Congress
surrendered tremendous discretionary power over America's economy to a few men
and women in the highest echelons of the nation's central bank:

 Power that America's Founding Fathers withheld even from the
 government, because they understood - and feared - its potential for abuse.

> So these Federal Reserve checks are endorsed by the government,
> deposited in a Federal Reserve bank, and used to pay government expenses
> by checks which create the first wave of fiat (unbacked paper) money
> that floods into the economy. Recipients deposit these checks into
> commercial banks that are part of the Fed system. Here is where the real
> inflationary action is.
>

Kind Regards.
Mark S. Öhberg

http://two-cents-worth.com/?107245&EG



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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[don . raymond]

This has been an interesting thread, do any of the DGCs store gold in Switzerland?

don


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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Dale Pond]

"Mark S. Ohberg" wrote:

> The real reason for its existence is the making of money out of
> debt.
>
> The act of borrowing by the federal government causes money to spring into
> existence.

There is no money. The FED does not create money. It creates credit. All banks "create 
and extinguish" credit. There is no money.

What they create (credit) only 'passes' for money. It is not real money. Real money is 
gold and silver coin.

I would presume this means the FED is licensed to "create and extinguish credit". In 
such an event it does not "coin money" and therefore, is not in violation of the 
Constitution?
interesting line of thought. if this is the case then Congress is also not in 
violation by not issuing gold and silver coin as money because there is no money. They 
just don't
issue money.

BTW: The "Congress" is not the legitimate Congress of the united States. It is the 
Congress of the United States of America. Two entirely different breeds of pole cats. 
Please see:

http://www.svpvril.com/meador_it.html

Logically then until such time (ever?) gold and silver coins are deemed 'money' they 
are simply commodities. So e-golders are simply bartering? And e-gold simply 
facilitates and
records those barter transactions?

BTW: It is illegal to loan "credit". Credit is not lent, payment of a debt is 
"DEFERRED":

""Credit" means the right granted by a creditor to a debtor to defer payment of debt 
or to incur debt and defer its payment."

An eye-opener:

http://www.svpvril.com/dm_MCBM.html

It appears the FED System is funnier money than Monopoly money.

--
Life, Love and Laughter,
Dale Pond
Sympathetic Vibratory Physics
Sacred Science - Sacred Life
http://www.svpvril.com
SVP Discussion Forum:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svpvril/





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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[David Hillary]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> > The real reason for its existence is the making of money out of
> > debt.

> > The act of borrowing by the federal government causes money to
> > spring into existence.
 
> There is no money. The FED does not create money. It creates
> credit. All banks "create and extinguish" credit. There is no
> money. 
 
> What they create (credit) only 'passes' for money. It is not real
> money. Real money is gold and silver coin.  

money is an economic good that enables indirect exchanges, it acts as
a medium of exchange, unit of account and store of value. This is
entirely different from credit which is deferred payment, loan or
debt. The debts of certian organisations may act as money, but the
two are not necessarily the same thing. Most debts are not money, but
they are denominated in money (money acting as a unit of account and
measure of value).

One good or another good might be better or worse to act as money, or
one orgisation's debts might be better or worse suited to be money,
but money is what people accept and use as such.

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Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use 

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ZUfcreRX0ymkEahnWujBlkEH
=DooT
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Dagny Taggart]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> 
> This has been an interesting thread, do any of the
> DGCs store gold in Switzerland?
> 
> don


E-gold is claiming to store in Switzerland.
This has been an unsolved mystery to me in the past.
According to Examiner on the e-gold website, they have
four bars stored in Zurich, Switzerland, except that I
have been unable to find the name of the custodian or
bank or vaults, the agreement e-gold has with them or
any other reference to that storage arrangement on
e-gold's website.

http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html

It appears, that there is no agreement, because
otherwise, it would be handled, just like the
agreements with the other Repositories in:  

JP Morgan Chase, London
http://www.e-gold.com/contracts/egold-jpmorganchase.htm

Transguard, Dubai 
http://www.e-gold.com/contracts/egold-transguard.htm

My question has always been: How do I know whether the
bars are really there or not? The number has not
changed in many month. Has anybody else found
references to the Zurich bars?
 No representative of e-gold has ever bothered to
explain that mystery, even after several attempts to
find out, here on this list.
 I think it is poor form and very unprofessional to
ignore a vital issue like this one. How can the e-gold
customers be sure that the gold is protected by the
same means in terms of dual signatories and escrow
arrangements?

It also concerns me that there is no mention of any of
the Repositories in the escrow agreement.

http://www.e-gold.com/contracts/egold-bbsc.3.htm

Makes you wonder if some of the unethical behavior of
G&SR shareholders is rubbing off onto the e-gold
family...

Dagny


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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[HeinRich W. KocH]

> E-gold is claiming to store in Switzerland.
According to Examiner on the e-gold website, they have
four bars stored in Zurich, Switzerland, except that I
have been unable to find the name of the custodian or
bank or vaults, the agreement e-gold has with them or
any other reference to that storage arrangement on
e-gold's website.

http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html

Gold is only real money if you are physically in posession of it. DGC do not
differ much from fiat currencies
except that it better suited for international payments over a medium like
the internet.
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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc.]

On 15 Jan 2002, at 8:25, HeinRich W. KocH wrote:

> Gold is only real money if you are physically in posession of it. DGC
> do not differ much from fiat currencies except that it better suited
> for international payments over a medium like the internet.

Not true. The main charracteristic of fiat money is that it is "fiat", 
backed by nothing else than confidence. DGC are backed by 
tangible value, physical gold, in a vault that belongs to the users.

You may argue about which one of the DGC has the best model to 
garantee the above, but the concept is certainly not according to 
the fiat currency model.



Claude Cormier
Ormetal Inc.

http://www.goldcurrencies.ca
http://www.ormetal.com
=
Claude Cormier Public Key
http://www.ormetal.com/keys/ClaudeCormier.asc
=

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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[Dale Pond]

"C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc." wrote:

>
> Not true. The main charracteristic of fiat money is that it is "fiat",
> backed by nothing else than confidence. DGC are backed by
> tangible value, physical gold, in a vault that belongs to the users.
>

>From a more or less passive lurker's view I can see the difficulty some have on this 
>list with the term "money". All our lives we've been told a FED note is money. This 
>is like
always being told the USA is a democracy. Neither yarn (passed for truth) is true.

http://www.svpvril.com/Money.html

It appears a FED note has attached to it a "virtual licence" and this licence is a 
provisional priviledge to "create and extinguish credit". A FED note is not property 
and does not
convey any property rights. A FED note is evidence of debt. It is a what it says it is 
- a note. Gold on the other hand (whether in metallic form or certified 'on deposit' 
as in
e-gold) is Real Property and with its exchange has and conveys those self-same Real 
Property Rights. The whole issue seems to revolve around contracted permissions (look 
up "quasi
contracts") or priviledges as opposed to "property". e-gold is the first system to 
come along that inherently acknowledges "property" as an inherent feature of gold 'as 
money'
whether real metal or certified desposits. What most do not realize is your RIGHTS are 
your property and have the same substance at law - if not being the same substance. 
E-gold
transcends the bogus concepts promoted by the FED, its promotors and protectors - that 
no one has any rights which is to say property does not exist and no one can lay sole 
claim
to any property - which property includes your rights to exclude others' claims 
against said property. A FED note belongs to the FED. So "owning" one, as in having 
one in your
pocket, does not give you ownership but instead provisionally grants the possesor a 
nebulous "right of use" which is to "create and extinguish credit" by its conveyance 
to another.
It is impossiboe for you to own someone else's property. The FED (magnamously) allows 
us to use their phony issuance in conformity to their rules. Break their unilaterally 
created
rules and loose the priviledge. e-gold on the other hand is offering us a chance to 
actually own real substance in the form of gold, silver and platinum and 
simultaneously offers a
transaction and record-keeping service. e-gold offers us a chance to leave Never-Never 
Land and return to sanity.

--
Life, Love and Laughter,
Dale Pond
Sympathetic Vibratory Physics
Sacred Science - Sacred Life
http://www.svpvril.com
SVP Discussion Forum:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svpvril/




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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc.]

On 15 Jan 2002, at 8:40, Dale Pond wrote:

> >From a more or less passive lurker's view I can see the difficulty
> >some have on this list with the term "money". All our lives we've
> >been told a FED note is money. 

And it is true. FED note are money. But money that is constantly 
being devalued over time.





Claude Cormier
Ormetal Inc.

http://www.goldcurrencies.ca
http://www.ormetal.com
=
Claude Cormier Public Key
http://www.ormetal.com/keys/ClaudeCormier.asc
=

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[e-gold-list] Re: Where does one keep ones wealth in an end-game scenario?

[PowerClicks]

>> Gold is only real money if you are physically in posession of it. DGC
>> do not differ much from fiat currencies except that it better suited
>> for international payments over a medium like the internet.
> 
> Not true. The main charracteristic of fiat money is that it is "fiat",
> backed by nothing else than confidence. DGC are backed by
> tangible value, physical gold, in a vault that belongs to the users.

You are assuming that the company holding that gold is trustworthy and will
not default. Even if real gold is actually stored in vaults on DGC users
behalf, that will not prevent the DGC from ever defaulting or just plain
fraud. You will never be able to regain "your" gold in case the DGC goes
under... Users are placing a lot of "trust" in the companies operating these
DGCs. This is a bit like the ones putting all their $$$ in a Latvian bank
:))


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