Re: Venn diagram program?
On 16 Aug 2001, John Uebersax asked for software "that produces publication quality Venn diagrams": > I want something to summarize and communicate to non-statisticians > (e.g., physicians) the overlap between two sets (such as patients who > have Major Depression those who receive antidepressant meds). Do you have reason to believe that your clients are particularly familiar with, and accustomed to interpreting, Venn diagrams? If not, why not use a simple two-way table of frequencies (or proportions)? This has the possible virtue of being readily extensible to three or more sets, whereas the characteristics you ask for below can be guaranteed only for two sets in Venn diagrams (and even then not for the complementary space representing the elements that belong to neither set). > The diagram should show the area of each circle as proportional [to] > its N, and the overlap area as proprotional to the number of cases in > both groups. Venn diagrams don't strictly need to be displayed in terms of circles; it's merely customary, or perhaps conventional. (Possibly because rough circles are easier to draw on a blackboard in more or less recognizable form than squares or rectangles.) The geometric task would be easier if you used squares, for which this kind of proportionalitity is fairly easy to arrange (and construct). Of course, in no case can you manage to get the area of the circles (or squares, or whatever figures please you) to be proportional to their respective N's *and* have the area of the complementary set (those that are neither 'A' nor 'B') proportional to its N, unless the complementary set is rather large in comparison to 'A' and 'B'. It would be possible to subdivide a square or rectangular space into four subsets whose areas are proportional as described; but I do not think one could guarantee that more than three of the four subsets would be rectangular (the fourth might be L-shaped), nor that the sets 'A' and 'B' (both of which contain 'AB') would both be rectangular. Tables are more general, and in some senses simpler (the subspaces are all rectangular, you can display 'A' and 'B' with differently colored outlines, and their intersection is obvious). But perhaps this approach would not be viable, if you happen to be dealing with numerophobes for clients. (OTOH, the *logical* relationships are fairly clear, and one can always avoid talking about the actual *numbers* involved.) Donald F. Burrill [EMAIL PROTECTED] 184 Nashua Road, Bedford, NH 03110 603-471-7128 = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
You can draw Venn diagrams very easily in Powerpoint using the ellipse/circle and box/rectangle tools. Draw the diagram, group all the bits together, and copy it into Word or whatever. Whether it is 'publication quality' depends on your definition of htis term. Alan Donald Burrill wrote: > > On 16 Aug 2001, John Uebersax asked for software "that produces > publication quality Venn diagrams": > > > I want something to summarize and communicate to non-statisticians > > (e.g., physicians) the overlap between two sets (such as patients who > > have Major Depression those who receive antidepressant meds). > > Do you have reason to believe that your clients are particularly familiar > with, and accustomed to interpreting, Venn diagrams? If not, why not use > a simple two-way table of frequencies (or proportions)? This has the > possible virtue of being readily extensible to three or more sets, > whereas the characteristics you ask for below can be guaranteed only for > two sets in Venn diagrams (and even then not for the complementary space > representing the elements that belong to neither set). > > > The diagram should show the area of each circle as proportional [to] > > its N, and the overlap area as proprotional to the number of cases in > > both groups. > > Venn diagrams don't strictly need to be displayed in terms of circles; > it's merely customary, or perhaps conventional. (Possibly because rough > circles are easier to draw on a blackboard in more or less recognizable > form than squares or rectangles.) The geometric task would be easier if > you used squares, for which this kind of proportionalitity is fairly > easy to arrange (and construct). Of course, in no case can you manage > to get the area of the circles (or squares, or whatever figures please > you) to be proportional to their respective N's *and* have the area of > the complementary set (those that are neither 'A' nor 'B') proportional > to its N, unless the complementary set is rather large in comparison to > 'A' and 'B'. > > It would be possible to subdivide a square or rectangular space into four > subsets whose areas are proportional as described; but I do not think > one could guarantee that more than three of the four subsets would be > rectangular (the fourth might be L-shaped), nor that the sets 'A' and > 'B' (both of which contain 'AB') would both be rectangular. > > Tables are more general, and in some senses simpler (the subspaces are > all rectangular, you can display 'A' and 'B' with differently colored > outlines, and their intersection is obvious). But perhaps this approach > would not be viable, if you happen to be dealing with numerophobes for > clients. (OTOH, the *logical* relationships are fairly clear, and one > can always avoid talking about the actual *numbers* involved.) > > > Donald F. Burrill [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 184 Nashua Road, Bedford, NH 03110 603-471-7128 > > = > Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about > the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > = -- Alan McLean ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Department of Econometrics and Business Statistics Monash University, Caulfield Campus, Melbourne Tel: +61 03 9903 2102Fax: +61 03 9903 2007 = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
At 10:40 AM 8/17/01 +1000, Alan McLean wrote: >You can draw Venn diagrams very easily in Powerpoint using the >ellipse/circle and box/rectangle tools. Draw the diagram, group all the >bits together, and copy it into Word or whatever. > >Whether it is 'publication quality' depends on your definition of htis >term. > >Alan actually, don's idea of overlapping squares seems to make the most sense ... you can easily do this in one of the accessories in windows ... paint ... squares are much easier to control as far as overlap goes ... nice thing here too is that you can "fill" the overlapping area with color, etc. since when you save it, it is a bmp file i think ... quality is good == dennis roberts, penn state university educational psychology, 8148632401 http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
Why not use a pie chart? Easy to understand and probably easily done with Excel or Access. Greg Hope this helps. Gregory E. Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] The views expressed here are M.I.T. Lincoln Lab (781) 981-2815not necessarily shared by Lexington, MA(781) 981-0908(FAX) M.I.T./LL or its sponsors 02420-9185, USA Date: 16 AUG 2001 11:37:15 -0700 From: John Uebersax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Can anyone suggest a standalone Windows (or DOS) that produces > publication quality Venn diagrams? > > I want something to summarize and communicate to non-statisticians > (e.g., physicians) the overlap between two sets (such as patients who > have Major Depression those who receive antidepressant meds). > > The diagram should show the area of each circle as proportional its N, > and the overlap area as proprotional to the number of cases in both > groups. > > Thanks in advance. > > John Uebersax > > John Uebersax, PhD (805) 384-7688 > Thousand Oaks, California (805) 383-1726 (fax) > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Existential Psych: http://members.aol.com/spiritualpsych > Agreement Stats: > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jsuebersax/agree.htm > Latent Structure: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jsuebersax > > > = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
John Uebersax wrote: > > Can anyone suggest a standalone Windows (or DOS) that produces > publication quality Venn diagrams? ... > The diagram should show the area of each circle as proportional its N, > and the overlap area as proprotional to the number of cases in both > groups. Is this advisable? It would seem that the different shapes of the intersection and difference sections violate one of the standard rules for good plotting. I would guess that most untrained viewers would exaggerate the area of the lens and underestimate that of the crescent. -Robert Dawson = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
Thanks Alan for the constructive reply. The others so far remind me of a Monty Python routine. Yes, I am using Powerpoint now. It's harder than it sounds, because one must calculate the radius' that give appropriately scaled circle areas; and one can only guess how close to move the circles to give the correct overlap area. John [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan McLean) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > You can draw Venn diagrams very easily in Powerpoint using the > ellipse/circle and box/rectangle tools. Draw the diagram, group all the > bits together, and copy it into Word or whatever. John Uebersax, PhD (805) 384-7688 Thousand Oaks, California (805) 383-1726 (fax) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Existential Psych: http://members.aol.com/spiritualpsych Agreement Stats: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jsuebersax/agree.htm Latent Structure: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jsuebersax = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
> Thanks Alan for the constructive reply. The others so far remind me > of a Monty Python routine. Let me guess - the one in which the film producer fires everybody who comments on his idea? In which case, I hereby withdraw my comment that a Venn diagram might not be the ideal way to communicate this data. My only comment on the matter is now "Splunge". -Robert Dawson PS: For the perplexed: see http://www.montypython.net/scripts/20thvole.php = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
> Yes, I am using Powerpoint now. It's harder than it sounds, because > one must calculate the radius' that give appropriately scaled circle > areas; and one can only guess how close to move the circles to give > the correct overlap area. > Adobe Photoshop will allow one to measure dimensions of lines (radii) in pixels, which might be helpful. You could analyze resulting image with image analysis software to confirm that you're approximately showing the right proportional overlap. There's a large bundle of image analysis freeware listed at http://home.worldonline.dk/~jsrsw/links.html. I haven't had a chance to test-drive any yet regards -- Eric = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
> > Yes, I am using Powerpoint now. It's harder than it sounds, because > > one must calculate the radius' that give appropriately scaled circle > > areas; and one can only guess how close to move the circles to give > > the correct overlap area. > > > I use rectangular areas in Power Point. That make it easy to get the proportions you want. It of course does not help with the problem of observers incorrectly perceiving relative sizes. Therefore, if the relative size is important, I label the parts. TJ > > = > Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the > problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > = Tom Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (919) 515 4620 fax: (919) 515 1824 Box 8109 4336 Nelson Hall North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8109 = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
I have read some of the venn diagram e-mails recently. If we restrict the sets to be represented by (perfect) circles only, it may happen that for certain situations the circle-only venn diagram does not exist. For 2 sets, the circle-version venn diagram always exists. First you draw 2 circles, with areas equal to the 2 given sets. Then you adjust the distance (between the 2 origins) and soon or later the common area will be equal to the proper intersection. And that's it. For 3 sets, you can do the same thing pairwise. First you do 2 sets, say A a nd B, as before. Then you do A and C. Here C is along SOME direction on the plane. Adjust C so that the common area between A, C is equal to the prpper intersection. Finally, consider the set C', and we do the same for B and C', and B and C' is along some direction on the plane. In this construction, we let C and C' have same area, and B intersection C' have the same area as the intersection between B and C. For the the 3-circle venn diagram to exist, we need C and C' coincide. This means distance(A,C)=distance(B,C'), and C=C' There are only 2 points (at most) on the plane that satisfies the above condition. But if C exists, then the common part of A, B and C is fixed --- i.e., not free. This means for certain A, B and C (with all 8 areas pre-determined), the proper circle-based venn diagram does not exist. Min-Te Chao - Original Message - From: "Tom Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 2:26 AM Subject: Re: Venn diagram program? > > > > Yes, I am using Powerpoint now. It's harder than it sounds, because > > > one must calculate the radius' that give appropriately scaled circle > > > areas; and one can only guess how close to move the circles to give > > > the correct overlap area. > > > > > > > I use rectangular areas in Power Point. That make it easy to get > the proportions you want. It of course does not help with the > problem of observers incorrectly perceiving relative sizes. > Therefore, if the relative size is important, I label the parts. > > TJ > > > > > = > > Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the > > problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > > = > > > Tom Johnson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > tel: (919) 515 4620 > fax: (919) 515 1824 > Box 8109 > 4336 Nelson Hall > North Carolina State University > Raleigh, NC 27695-8109 > > > = > Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about > the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > = = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Venn diagram program?
No I had more in mind: 1. The argument room and perhaps: 2. "Well I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition" It's like asking a question like, "Excuse me, can you tell me how to get to First and Main Street," and getting 5 replies like "Oh come now, why would anybody want to go to First and Main Street?" [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert J. MacG. Dawson) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > > Thanks Alan for the constructive reply. The others so far remind me > > of a Monty Python routine. > > Let me guess - the one in which the film producer fires everybody who > comments on his idea? = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
