Re: [Elecraft] posts not showing up

[G4ILO]

texasexpediter wrote:
> 
> I thought I had my posting problems cleared up. I've replied to a few 
> posts and get a confirmation of my message being received but it never 
> shows up in my email from the reflector. Are the replies we make not 
> sent back to us?
> 
> 
That depends on whether you set the "Receive your own posts to the list?"
option in the subscription options.

-
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
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[Elecraft] Yet another Elecraft archive

[G4ILO]

Wondering why spam has started arriving at this email address, which I set up
specifically to use for this reflector, I searched for it on Google. I found
the address in an archive of the reflector on Google Groups
(http://groups.google.com/group/elecraft-archive). Unfortunately, in this
archive, all email addresses are in clear and therefore accessible to
spambots.

-
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Shaun Oliver]

bloody 'ell,,, that was slightly more than I barganned for. oh well, 
every little bit helps, and ultimately confuses.

shaun.


On 4/01/2008 11:58 PM, the old scribe known as Dale Putnam was able to 
impart this pearl of wisdom:
What is needed is a good effecient, multiband antenna with a general 
coverage pattern.
The old saying applies... higher is better. Ok.. now that means up is 
good. Low isn't. Unless you are
intent upon working everyone, including the local tv, stereo, and 
sometimes even the  garage door opener, within a couple hundred miles. 
So.. high is good.
  Now.. lets take a little bite at a time. A finite amount of power out 
of a transmitter.. that doesn't change much, or shouldn't at least. So.. 
power out.. now it radiates best from an antenna... ok... now, it seems 
to me that the best way to get the power to the antenna is with a 
feedline, and the more power that can get into the antenna, the better 
it will get radiated. So.. best feedline, under the conditions... 
installation restrictions apply. The best feedline in the world... won't 
do a lotta good if it isn't installed correctly. Shorts.. poor 
connectors... bends too tight,... too close to metal... all apply.
How about asking the feedline to transfer power outside of the 
parameters that it was intended? Ok.. so what is best? We ask feedline 
to transfer power over a range of freq. into an antenna that is asked to 
radiate with high effectiveness over the same range. If you want to do 
the math... go for it. There are others that do that rather well... I'd 
drather spend time playing radio, but the math still applies. So.. what 
works? Everyone has their own "best". Generally speaking, the most 
effective is a rather high impedance transmission or feedline. Ok... 
open line.. window line.. homebrew... high price...  all are 
considerations.. even consideration of a single wire feeder known as a 
"G" transmission line will do rather well, if the previous 
considerations are taken. So.. now we have a feedline. Next the antenna. 
Oh boy, here it comes,  to where the rope meets leather. The antenna 
needs to radiate. Really well.. and that is generally measured at the 
other fellow's s meter or ears. Ok, so first, where do you want to talk? 
Lets break it down. Inside a 600 mile radius or outside that circle? Now 
we all want to talk all over the world... and have the strongest signal 
all the time.. That just isn't going to happen. If a good signal is to 
be expected within the country.. the antenna needs to be able to radiate 
in such a manner as to put a signal to right  "there"! Ok, we can all 
figure out which antenna has what radiation pattern on paper.
And that is a great start. Now... how about the ground effects... the 
extra bends and twists? All those can be considered, sure, but the 
overriding thought may well be that the antenna needs to accept the 
power being brought to it, and radiate it. Resonance, or being "cut to 
frequency" works well for the imedance match to the feedline, if that is 
a choice to apply. If it is a low impedance feedline.. a small change 
will be noticed, because a  5 ohm change referenced to 50, isn't the 
same as the same 5 ohm difference referenced to 600 ohm.  Bottom line? 
Ok.. here it is.. an antenna that works over the range that is needed, 
and radiates with the best chosen pattern, with the highest transfer of 
power from the feedline to the ether. Pick one... there are many. Many, 
many pages of very good information is available to help you choose. 
That is applicable.. right now. With the winter weather upon us.. now is 
the time for a bit of reading, consideration... and choose. And.. if you 
really want that antenna to stay up?... better consider putting it up in 
the winter too.. if you put it up in the winter, it will last longer.. 
and pretty much work well. Some of the best antennas I've used, have 
been put up in the dead of winter, and some during blizzards. Not 
necessarily recommended. Which would you rather do? Build it, or maybe 
read about it and choose wisely, get everything ready.. and the first 
warm day... get ready... get set... then build away!
 
See you in the pileups, foxhunts, and most importantly... in the log, 
and that's a nice QSL too!


--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy




Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. 
Start now! 



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Re: [Elecraft] Re: dipole antenna efficiency

[Don Wilhelm]

Chris,

I respectfully disagree.  A good current balun or a balanced tuner will 
cure any common mode noise that may be present on the feedline.


Of course the real 'secret' is to run the feedline away from the antenna 
at a 90 degree angle and support the feedline away from conducting 
surfaces - if done properly, common mode pickup will not be a problem.


73,
Don W3FPR

Chris Kantarjiev wrote:

The *problem* with ladder line fed antennas is that it's very
difficult to remove common mode noise from them. If that's
not an issue for you ... fine. But if it is...

73 de chris K6DBG
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[Elecraft] Re: dipole antenna efficiency

[Chris Kantarjiev]

The *problem* with ladder line fed antennas is that it's very
difficult to remove common mode noise from them. If that's
not an issue for you ... fine. But if it is...

73 de chris K6DBG
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RE: [Elecraft] KXAT1 vs. T1-K

[Bill Johnson]

I would highly recommend the built in tuner... makes life so much easier.


72,

Bill 

K9YEQ
K2 #35, K2 # 5279, KX1 #35, Mini Modules, etc.  




> Any opinions out there about pros or cons of these two tuners?  If one
were
> going to build a KX1 from the ground up, would either of these tuners be
> preferable to the other in general??   Why???

KXAT-1 is smaller, fits in the KX1 and is integrated with it 
operationally.  The T1 is larger, external but matches a much wider 
range of impedances and works with more than one radio.

So, like everything else, it depends... In this case on your goals, the 
antennas you expect to use with the KX1, etc.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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RE: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[Bill Johnson]

Waiting for a K3?  IF you don't have a K2 don't rule it out before buying
another manufacturer's radio.  Fabulous rig and very pleasant to use!  I
only have two of them and am thinking of getting a K1 kit while waiting for
the K3 production to get caught up.  And the KX1 is a sweet multi-band radio
which is really cool.   (And, no I don't own or support Elecraft other than
like the building and quality.)


72,

Bill 

K9YEQ
K2 #35, K2 # 5279, KX1 #35, Mini Modules, etc.  




-Original Message-

Maybe a used Yaesu/Ken or Icom. Don't trust the new Icom and Yaesu rigs.
The best rigs for the money are bought used or if it has to be new try 
TT,Elecraft or Flex.

America is back !

Al
W4ABW


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[Elecraft] pro-noun-ciation.

[Pete Barth]

I call it "L-E-craft".
I thought that was the way they answered the phone at the factory.

By the way, the way I handled waiting for a K3 was to order the same serial
number as my K2.

-- 
Pete / ???
W6LAW
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[Elecraft] TS-480SAT or ProIII

[K6AX]

480 for a temporary solution. (Best radio under $1K)

ProIII as a permanent solution. (Would make a good pair w/ the K3, depending
on what your goals are.)
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[Elecraft] covers

[Robert 'RC' Conley]

at the bottom of the main Elecraft page
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  made mine just last month
with a logo
RC kc5wa
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Re: [Elecraft] KXAT1 vs. T1-K

[Lyle Johnson]

Any opinions out there about pros or cons of these two tuners?  If one were
going to build a KX1 from the ground up, would either of these tuners be
preferable to the other in general??   Why???


KXAT-1 is smaller, fits in the KX1 and is integrated with it 
operationally.  The T1 is larger, external but matches a much wider 
range of impedances and works with more than one radio.


So, like everything else, it depends... In this case on your goals, the 
antennas you expect to use with the KX1, etc.


73,

Lyle KK7P

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[Elecraft] KXAT1 vs. T1-K

[Dohn]

Any opinions out there about pros or cons of these two tuners?  If one were
going to build a KX1 from the ground up, would either of these tuners be
preferable to the other in general??   Why???

 

Dohn N8EWY

 

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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Don Wilhelm]

Folks,

Not to dispute the info that Ron has provided, but to add a bit to it ---
Let me throw in my $.02 worth in this.  Any antenna will radiate if you 
can feed power to it, and it will radiate all the power that is fed to 
it, but there is loss to consider too.  If the radiator and the 
transmission line have zero loss, then all your transmitter power will 
go into the antenna and be radiated - period, but the practical world is 
not quite so simple, real components have real loss - the challenge is 
to make the loss a minimum given the circumstances that exist for your 
installation.


OK, so zero loss is the ideal condition.  In practice, we have resistive 
and other losses to contend with.  When the load impedance of an antenna 
falls below 20 ohms or so, I begin to worry about losses because the 
radiation resistance is a significant fraction of the total resistance.  
A loss of 10 ohms is insignificant with a radiation resistance of 100 
ohms, but a loss of 10 ohms with a radiation resistance of 5 ohms is 
indeed significant.  - that is especially true of verticals where ground 
loss is a significant factor.  A higher feedpoint impedance can be dealt 
with by using a matching network of some sort, but low feedpoint 
impednces need to be given special attention so that the line resistance 
(and the ground resistance in the case of verticals) is minimized.  
Remember that low impedances mean high currents, and given a fixed 
resistance, the higher currents mean greater losses - it is all in the 
physics - you cannot fool Mother Nature.


As a side note - window line performs well and with low loss when dry, 
but when it is wet, the losses in window line can become severe.  If you 
can arrange true open wire feeders, the loss should be low, dry or wet.


73,
Don W3FPR
.
Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

That's a "linearly loaded" doublet. The zig-zag provides a little more
inductive reactance to help offset the capacitive reactance caused by the
overall length being short. Studies suggest that the resistive losses in the
wire is somewhat less using the "zig zag" than using loading coils each side
of center. So the linear loaded antenna is at least somewhat more efficient.


Since that antenna is fed with a ladder line, the length is unimportant
anyway, except to choose a combination of radiator and feeder length that
provides a reasonable impedance on each band. If you have a wide-range
tuner, that's not important either. 


You can skip the linear loading and simply put up a center fed wire fed with
high-impedance (400 to 600 ohm), low loss line. There will be almost no loss
in "gain" over a 1/2 wave radiator as long as the radiator segment is at
least 1/4 wave long, end to end, plus another 1/8 wavelength in the feeders.
That adds up to a total of 1/2 wave of wire counting the two wires in the
feeder and the radiator. 

  

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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

WILLIS COOKE wrote:

>I have a 1973 and a 1977 Handbook and I don't see it in either.   What 
>matching method did they use? 

Sorry my error, I should have said the 13th (1974) edition of the ARRL 
*Antenna* Handbook - page 219.

They used an airwound transformer at the centre of the driven element, 19 turns 
of B&W 3025 stock connected between the two halves of the helical driven 
element with a 12 turn tightly coupled link primary. Looking into the link the 
impedance at antenna resonance was approximately 12 ohms. They used a broadband 
1 : 4 balun to raise the impedance to 48 ohms. To reduce antenna Q, short 
lengths of aluminum welding rod were attached to the free ends of the helical 
elements. The antenna was a yagi, driven element and director spaced 15ft 8 
inches.

>I don't think that EZNEC can model a helix very well.  EZNEC can only handle 
>straight wires and inductances can be entered either by inductance value or 
>impedance.  The closest representation >would be short lengths of wire with 
>several loading coils.

I agree, and I am not certain either that an EZNEC model consisting of several 
loading coils would provide useful answers because the helix could be viewed as 
a slow wave structure rather than a classic loaded wire.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD
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Re: [Elecraft] Silly Question

[David Wilburn]

Ela, or Ele, I think its a bit like your favorite Aunt or (like we often
say in the south) Aint, in either case your mother's sister is happy to
see you, and Elecraft is happy to serve you.
-  

David Wilburn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K4DGW
K2 S/N 5982


On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 02:53 -0600, Leo Bricker K5LDB wrote:
> I've always been under the impression it's EL uh kraft.
> >> Is it "Ella" or "Elly"?
> >> 

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RE: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

David wrote:
I'm also fairly sure that the amount of wire to wind on the helix is 
significantly different from the amount that would be used in a straight 
line.  My gut feeling is that it should be less, but I haven't 
researched that, either,

-

I have experimented with continuously-loaded antennas (those with the
radiating element a long space-wound coil) and found Doug DeMaw's estimates
quite close: a half wavelength of wire space wound with spaces equal to the
wire diameter on a small diameter form will resonate against ground like a
1/4 wave linear Marconi antenna. For example, I space-wound 135 feet of #12
wire on a 2X2 inch wooden form. The antenna was about 12 feet long.  Working
against ground, it was self-resonate in the 80 meter band. So it takes
roughly twice the amount of wire that would be needed if it was stretched
out in a straight line. 

Ron AC7AC

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Re: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[W4ABW]

Maybe a used Yaesu/Ken or Icom. Don't trust the new Icom and Yaesu rigs.
The best rigs for the money are bought used or if it has to be new try 
TT,Elecraft or Flex.

America is back !

Al
W4ABW


**
Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
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Re: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[Barry N1EU]

Get a used Orion I - a bargain at around $2K and you'll be able to resell it
for little loss when your K3 is ready.

73,
Barry N1EU



Just wondering what Rig would be your second choice if you can't wait
forever to get a K3?
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft K2 & K3 Covers

[Mike B]

Ken - is it possible to have the Elecraft logo embroidered in?  Of course, that 
would require copyright approval from Aptos, but I think it would go a long way 
towards making the covers unique.


73,

Mike
KW1ND
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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[David Woolley]

WILLIS COOKE wrote:

Shaun, it will decrease the efficiency drastically.  A
two meter long 80 meter dipole will be about 10% as
efficient as one 40 meters long at the same height. 


That's only conditionally true, although the conditions are probably 
going to apply in this case.  An antenna that is a long way from the 
ground (or over a low loss ground) will have a low radiation resistance 
if it is short, but could be efficient if the loss resistances in the 
antenna and ATU are small.  (I suspect that an antenna that is short 
compared with its height may also have lower ground losses, but I 
haven't researched this.)


As far as I know, a helically loaded antenna will have a higher 
radiation resistance than one with all the inductance lumped in the ATU, 
otherwise they wouldn't be so popular on hand-helds. On the other hand, 
it may well have rather higher ohmic losses.  If 
 is correct, one would expect an 
80m dipole, constructed from normal mode helices, with a span of 2 
metres, to have a radiation resistance of about 200 milli-ohms, whereas 
 seems to suggest 123 
milliohms for lumped loading in the ATU, The radiation resistances 
scales as the square of the length, providing the antennas are short.


I'm also fairly sure that the amount of wire to wind on the helix is 
significantly different from the amount that would be used in a straight 
line.  My gut feeling is that it should be less, but I haven't 
researched that, either, although another URL pulled in searching for 
the above ones suggests one gets the length by pruning back from a 
quarter wave, although it didn't say whether that allowed for end effects.


If this is being used indoors, coupling to the building structures and 
services may well increase the losses - or they could act as the real 
radiator!


Note that these radiation resistances are over an order of magnitude 
outside the specification range for the KAT2.


I do sympathize with the problem though, as I'm antenna restricted, and 
haven't really solved the problem yet.


--
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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RE: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

That's a "linearly loaded" doublet. The zig-zag provides a little more
inductive reactance to help offset the capacitive reactance caused by the
overall length being short. Studies suggest that the resistive losses in the
wire is somewhat less using the "zig zag" than using loading coils each side
of center. So the linear loaded antenna is at least somewhat more efficient.


Since that antenna is fed with a ladder line, the length is unimportant
anyway, except to choose a combination of radiator and feeder length that
provides a reasonable impedance on each band. If you have a wide-range
tuner, that's not important either. 

You can skip the linear loading and simply put up a center fed wire fed with
high-impedance (400 to 600 ohm), low loss line. There will be almost no loss
in "gain" over a 1/2 wave radiator as long as the radiator segment is at
least 1/4 wave long, end to end, plus another 1/8 wavelength in the feeders.
That adds up to a total of 1/2 wave of wire counting the two wires in the
feeder and the radiator. 

Such an antenna operated where the top is  1/4 wave long is only about 2 dB
(1/3 of one S-unit) below a full size dipole in "gain". On bands were then
radiator is longer, the antenna will be more efficient, even showing
significant gain on the higher frequencies where the radiator is a
wavelength or more long. 

The high impedance line is important to keep the SWR at a reasonable level
to avoid unnecessary feeder losses. 

Note that the K1JEK antennas meet this criteria even without the linear
loading. 

The biggest things the prefab antennas have to offer is convenience. In the
case of a simple wire antenna like this, you don't need to dig around for
the wire, feeder and suitable insulators.

Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wilburn
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:05 PM
To: David Yarnes
Cc: Dohn; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency


I understand many G5RV's are getting replaced with these antennas.  I have
the Grampy version, that is 100' long on each side, for a total of 300' of
wire on each side, all in a 100' on each side package.  Have had good luck
with it.  Their shortest is a bit over 70'.

http://www.k1jek.com/ 

-  

David Wilburn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K4DGW
K2 S/N 5982


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[Elecraft] Test

[Ken Kopp]

Nothing from the reflector for several hours ... unusual.

Ken Kopp - K0PP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[Elecraft] Elecraft K2 & K3 Covers

[Ken Kopp]

I believe there used to be a source of radio covers shown on the 
Elecraft site, but I don't see it now.  Can anyone shed light on this?


My Lady ... Rose, N7HKW ... has made several covers for my 
K2 and K3 and we wonder if there's a market for them?  She
already has several orderes from local friends.  If you're curious 
we can e-mail a photo.


She's a master seamstress /quilter and would like to recover some 
of the investment in her do-everything, compter controlled sewing 
and embroidery machine.  ( She could have bought three more K3's

for me.) (:-))

(We have Eric's OK for this posting.)

73/88! Ken & Rose Kopp - K0PP/N7HKW
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Thom LaCosta]

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, David Wilburn wrote:


I understand many G5RV's are getting replaced with these antennas.  I
have the Grampy version, that is 100' long on each side, for a total of
300' of wire on each side, all in a 100' on each side package.  Have had
good luck with it.  Their shortest is a bit over 70'.


And should you want to roll your own:

http://www.hamuniverse.com/cobraantenna.html

Thom,EIEIO
Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer

www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon
www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month
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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[David Wilburn]

I understand many G5RV's are getting replaced with these antennas.  I
have the Grampy version, that is 100' long on each side, for a total of
300' of wire on each side, all in a 100' on each side package.  Have had
good luck with it.  Their shortest is a bit over 70'.

http://www.k1jek.com/ 

-  

David Wilburn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K4DGW
K2 S/N 5982


On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 09:33 -0700, David Yarnes wrote:
> Shaun, Dohn, and All,
> 
> Your proposal to wrap wire around pipe will probably end up being a "bust". 
> In essence, you would just be loading a coil, and it would be very 
> inefficient as a radiator.  Some have tried to use a "helical" approach in 
> order to shorten the overall length, but again that doesn't work all that 
> well either.  An example would be using the old "Slinkey" wire toys that we 
> all probably had at one time or another.  Those can work, after a fashion, 
> but are generally poor performers.
> 
> I disagree about the G5RV also.  That is not a very good antenna, 
> notwithstanding the huge amount of use those antennas get.  The problem is 
> that the G5RV was never intended to be an "all band" antenna, and it is a 
> performer on all but a couple of bands.  Unless you use a tuner, you will be 
> very unhappy with the results you get with a G5RV design, particularly with 
> modern rigs that don't have the advantage older tube-type transmitters had 
> with  pi-network coupling.   The warts that a G5RV has is well documented, 
> and the latest thing I remember reading about it was in a recent issue of 
> Sprat--the Spring 2007 issue.  Therein is a discussion by ex-ZS6BKW, who is 
> famous for originating much of the variations for the G5RV that are in use 
> today.  Paraphrasing his own words, don't expect much from a G5RV unless you 
> at least use a tuner!
> 
>  Unless you want to put up some sort of trap dipole, or a multi-band 
> vertical, your best option is to get a decent tuner and put up a dipole with 
> balanced line feeders.  The 88 foot antenna described by L.B. Cebik on his 
> website (www.cebik.com), is an excellent choice for a simple antenna that 
> will work well on 80 meters through 10 meter.  You can shorten that to 44 
> feet if you want to give up 80 meters.  That will fit in just about anyone's 
> backyard, unless you live in a condo.  The higher you get it, the better it 
> will work.  Just don't use coax, or the losses will eat you alive!  You can 
> coax feed an antenna that is resonant with good results.  But when you try 
> to use it on a higher frequency (like using an 80 meter coax fed antenna on 
> 40 meters), the results turn to mush.  The same antenna fed with balanced 
> line through a tuner will work substantially better at higher frequencies. 
> The resonant antenna (130 feet on 80) works better than the 88 foot antenna 
> does on 80, but the 88 foot version (or the 44 foot version) is intended to 
> standardize your radiation pattern, and is still a decent performer on 80 
> meters.
> 
> Another option would be a remotely tuned vertical on your roof.  Dr. 
> Megacycle (KK6MC), suggested this to me not long ago when he visited my 
> shack.  His advice was to put up a 22 foot vertical, remotely tuned, and 
> using balanced feedline.  This would give you pretty decent performance from 
> 40 meters through 10 meters.  You would need as many radials (random length) 
> as possible.  This was a suggestion as an alternative to my R7 vertical, 
> which is a pretty good performer, but perhaps not as good as the suggested 
> alternative.  I haven't tried that yet, but I'd like to.  I'm sure the 
> suggestion is a good one.
> 
> This may be more than you wanted to hear, but it seemed as if you were 
> struggling to come up with a solution.  Hopefully it helps some in that 
> process.  If wire antennas, or verticals, are just not practical for you, 
> you might want to try a mini-loop.  These aren't nearly as efficient as a 
> good wire antenna, but they are quite small, and the results can often 
> surprise you.  Besides, they are fun to build!
> 
> Dave W7AQK
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Dohn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Shaun Oliver'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
> 
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:50 AM
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency
> 
> 
> > Shaun,
> >
> > For materials needed vs. radio theory, you just can't beat a G5RV antenna.
> > IMHO I've used mine with my K1, K2 and several home brew projs and it 
> > works
> > great time and again.  Yes, you want to get the center up there a ways. 
> > Say
> > around 35-40 feet, but the payoff was good for me.  There are a number of
> > sites out there that have good versions of a very old, classic antenna.
> > Very few parts (all of which can be made with junk around the house.  Very
> > little investment for a sound payoff.
> >
> > Dohn   N8EWY
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shaun Oliver
> > Sent: Thursda

Re: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[Charlotte & Bob Higgins]

I made this mistake before with another manufacturer's new top of the line 
rig. I ordered it and waited and waited. The release date kept being pushed 
back and back. Finally my patience gave out. I cancelled the order and 
bought my second choice rig.


I regretted doing it almost immediately. Even more so when my first choice 
rig started arriving in ham's hands. I eventually sold my second choice rig 
and bought my first choice.


I'm not going to make that mistake again. I'm going to wait patiently for my 
K3, because it is really the rig  I want, far above any second choice.


Don't worry it won't really take forever to arrive.

73
Bob K4LW

Just wondering what Rig would be your second choice if you can't wait 
forever to get a K3?


Larry Putman
K3  Ordered early October


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Re: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[David Pratt]

In a recent message, Larry Putman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
Just wondering what Rig would be your second choice if you can't wait 
forever to get a K3?


Larry Putman
K3  Ordered early October


A K2.

73
--
David G4DMP
West Yorkshire, England, UK


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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Shaun Oliver  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I was thinking of using 18 mm electrical conduit. with 2 mm spacings for 
each turn of the wire.


-

The diameter is a bit on the small side for the low bands, but NM Helix 
antennas working as 'quarter wave' radiators on the low bands designed for 
mobile use, and whose diameter was similar, performed well when evaluated 
using a proper antenna range, better than a base loaded 8ft whip. The 
important consideration is that the antenna resonates within the range of 
frequencies used in the band for which the antenna is designed. I have not 
tried a single NM Helix with an external tuner for multiband operation nor 
tried to model one using EZNEC.


Good luck!

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

PS  'Old scribe'  --- hmmmpf :-)

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Re: [Elecraft] phantom power

[Don Wilhelm]

Bob,

While that would be a nice addition, I think it is not possible inside 
the K3 - there is no source of 48 VDC available.


As an alternative, consider one of the small audio mixers - the 
Behringer 602 (now Xenyx 802) provides 48 volt phantom power for 2 
microphones and 2 additional stereo channels of mixing.  I find it quite 
useful in the hamshack - although I do not use the pro mics with it, it 
does have that capability and is inexpensive.


73,
Don W3FPR

Bob W9RFS wrote:

Would it be possible for the K3 to provide 48volt "Phantom" power for
profesional condensor microphones?
Thanks!
  

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[Elecraft] posts not showing up

[Leo Bricker K5LDB]

I thought I had my posting problems cleared up. I've replied to a few 
posts and get a confirmation of my message being received but it never 
shows up in my email from the reflector. Are the replies we make not 
sent back to us?


--
73 K5LDB
--
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

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[Elecraft] Power off at Elecraft HQ - Power off at Elecraft - Aptos

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

We are without power today in Aptos due to the major winter storm hitting CA..  

We're down to one working phone line and our computers are off line. (I'm 
sending this from my cell phone.) We'll probably be down the rest of the day.

Our web page and on-line order page are OK as they are hosted at a Silicon 
Valley server farm. I hope the winds die down soon!

73, 

Eric
_..._

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Re: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[Don Wilhelm]

Larry,

You did not state any parameters, so ...
How about a K2 - they are shipping, no waiting.
The K2 does have a top notch receiver, and right now only a few high end 
transceivers perform better (they also cost substantially more than the K2).


The K3 wait will not be 'forever' - eventually the Elecraft folks will 
catch up with the orders and you can have a kit 'right off the shelf' - 
I would expect that to occur sometime in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2008, 
but then I do not know the details of the order backlog, so that is just 
a guess on my part.


73,
Don W3FPR

Larry Putman wrote:

Just wondering what Rig would be your second choice if you can't wait forever 
to get a K3?
 
Larry Putman 
K3  Ordered early October


  

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[Elecraft] K1 S-meter / AGC problems

[WA7CS]

I'm knee - deep into building a K1

Last night - right before my mandatory bedtime I performed the receiver
alignment and tests.  

Everything worked A-OK, with the exception of the S-Meter and AGC.

There appears to be no S-meter response, and the AGC does not seem to be
working.

With the K1 and my K2 connected to the same antenna a S-6 on the air signal
(as indicated by the K2 S-meter) provides no response on the K1 S-Meter.  I
also cranked up the K-2 power to 100 watts to the antenna and monitored the
signal with a hank of wire attached to the K1 antenna jack - REALLY loud
signal, but still no S-meter response.

The K1 S-meter consistently shows one bar regardless of input signal
strength.

The S-meter bar graph test pattern (i.e. brief display of all the bars)
functions when DISPLAY is pressed.

I checked the S-meter zero and full-scale settings.  If the S-meter zero
settings is adjusted with the SIG function, the S-meter bars increase and
decrease as described on page 53 of the manual, however there is still no
response to input signals.  Adjusting the full scale setting similarly does
not change response to input signals levels.

Due to my assigned bedtime, I was unable to perform the voltage checks at
U1, U2,Q1, Q2, D2 in the troubleshooting table.  Now, I'm at my desk at
work, unable to concentrate on my livelihood.

Please offer some suggestions so I can keep my day job!

Carl
WA7CS
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/K1-S-meter---AGC-problems-tp14619698p14619698.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[Elecraft] WB3AAL on the Appalachian Trail on 5 Jan 2008

[Ron Polityka]

Hello,


Not sure why my 1st message did not do thru.


5 Jan 2008 I will be back out on the Appalachian Trail working towards my
900 QSO from the trail.

I have a total of 880 QSO's from the AT since March 2000.

I will start out at 16:00 UTC on 7.033 + or- due to QRM.

Last week I had such a huge pile up I thought I was a rare DX. So I will
stay there for a while.

I will be on 14.060 + or - starting at 18:00 UTC. I will call CQ for a while
but if I have no replies I will go back to 40m or maybe try 30m.

Starting 4 Jan 2008 look for a group of Polar Bears from the Mohican Outdoor
Center in NJ. They should be on the air now as I am typing this e-mail. The
MOC is on the Appalachian trail and they will also hike up to Cat Fish Tower
on the AT in NJ on Saturday.

Happy Hunting!!

72 and Thanks,
Ron Polityka
WB3AAL
www.wb3aal.com
www.n3epa.org/

K1 - SN 01011
K2 - SN 01392

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[Elecraft] WB3AAL on the Appalachian Trail on 8 Jan 2008

[Ron Polityka]

Hello,

5 Jan 2008 I will be back out on the Appalachian Trail working towards my 
900 QSO from the trail.


I have a total of 880 QSO's from the AT since March 2000.

I will start out at 16:00 UTC on 7.033 + or- due to QRM.

Last week I had such a huge pile up I thought I was a rare DX. So I will 
stay there for a while.


I will be on 14.060 + or - starting at 18:00 UTC. I will call CQ for a while 
but if I have no replies I will go back to 40m or maybe try 30m.


Starting 4 Jan 2008 look for a group of Polar Bears from the Mohican Outdoor 
Center in NJ. They should be on the air now as I am typing this e-mail. The 
MOC is on the Appalachian trail and they will also hike up to Cat Fish Tower 
on the AT in NJ on Saturday.


Happy Hunting!!

72 and Thanks,
Ron Polityka
WB3AAL
www.wb3aal.com
www.n3epa.org/

K1 - SN 01011
K2 - SN 01392

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[Elecraft] Elecraft K2 & K3 Covers

[Ken Kopp]

I believe there used to be a source of radio covers shown on the 
Elecraft site, but I don't see it now.  Can anyone shed light on this?


My Lady ... Rose, N7HKW ... has made several covers for my 
K2 and K3 and we wonder if there's a market for them?  She
already has orders from local friends.  If you're curious we can 
e-mail a photo.


She's a master seamstress /quilter and would like to recover some 
of the investment in her do-everything, compter controlled sewing 
and embroidery machine.  (She could have bought three more K3's

for me.) (:-))

(We have Eric's OK for this posting.)

73/88! Ken & Rose Kopp - K0PP/N7HKW
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[Ken Kopp]

A K2

K0PP

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[Elecraft] K3 phantom power

[Bob W9RFS]

Would it be possible for the K3 to provide 48volt "Phantom" power for
profesional condensor microphones?
Thanks!
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/K3-phantom-power-tp14620406p14620406.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Elecraft] K1 crystal grounding

[bill KE5KWE]

I am currently building a K2 and there is no such caveat.  Each crystal is
grounded, individually per instructions.  Some are tied togeather, others
are grounded on the top and others are grounded on the side or bottom.  But
I would follow the instructions in the manual and not improvise.

Good Luck, Bill KE5KWE


Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote:
> 
> Carl,
> 
> FWIW when building crystal filters I have found that soldering the
> grounding 
> wires to the bottom of the cans provides better isolation between crystals 
> than to the top of the cans IF there is proper shielding in place 'below 
> deck' and the crystals are laid out side by side in a straight line. If 
> there is no shielding in place 'below deck' and if the filter crystals are 
> not placed in a straight line there might not be any improvement gained by 
> tacking to the bottom vs the top, since the crystal to crystal unwanted 
> coupling could well be less than the unwanted coupling taking place 
> elsewhere in or around the filter. The use a single wire and one ground 
> connection to ground two or more crystal cans should be avoided if at all 
> possible.
> 
> IMHO I would leave your K1's filter crystal grounds as they are to avoid 
> reheating the crystal cans.
> 
> In my K2 I have the KSB2 installed and I did tack separate ground wires to 
> the bottom of the crystal cans when building it, but the leakage around
> the 
> filter masked any improvement in my case..
> 
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD
> 
> 
> WA7CS wrote on Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:33 PM
> 
>> I'm currently building the K1.
>>
>> When I built a K2 a few yers ago, there was an errata sheet or a builder
>> alert, etc. advising that crystal grounding should be done near the
>> bottom
>> of the crystal can as opposed to the top of the can.
>>
>> I can't seem to find similar advice for the K1.
>>
>> I've already installed all of the crystals with the ground wire soldered 
>> to
>> the top of the cans.  I'm considering going back and tacking the ground 
>> wire
>> to the sides/bottom of the crystal cans.
>>
>> Also, in the K2, I seem to recall that all of the crystals were grounded
>> together with a wire along the top - no similar instruction for the K1.
>>
>> Should I do this, or is any potential benefit not worth the effort/risk?
> 
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> 
> 

-- 
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[Elecraft] If you can't get a K3 second choice?

[Larry Putman]

Just wondering what Rig would be your second choice if you can't wait forever 
to get a K3?
 
Larry Putman 
K3  Ordered early October



  

Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Ken Kopp]

Dave's observations are "right on" and good reading.

I've never understood the popularity of the G5RV.  It's
achieved a sort of "cult" following.  The original design
was for a 20M -ONLY- antenna, and somehow has
morphed into a do everything hoax.

I do antenna talks at conventions and hamfests, and
I always ask; "How many of you use a G5RV"? The
hands go up and it's usually about 50% of the audience.
I say; "Gosh, I'm sorry", and try to show them how much 
easier and more efficient it would be to simply use the

open wire feeder portion of the antenna and a balun at/in
the (required) tuner.

Some years ago the "Carolina Windom" had the same
sort of following

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[WILLIS COOKE]

There are many forms of shortened antennas that work
to varying degrees.  Antenna selection and
installation is a very complicated situation and the
ARRL Antenna Handbook, as large as it is only has a
fair sampling of all the information that is
available.  Any antenna that completed the desired
communication worked.  Any antenna that could not
complete the desired communication did not work.  We
talk a lot on this reflector about how wonderful the
Elecraft products work, but even Elecraft transceivers
need to be connected to an effective antenna to
achieve the desired result.

I have a friend who has a 3 element SteppIR at 70 feet
on top of a mountain.  He thinks it is a poor antenna
because at his previous QTH he had a Hygain 5 element
full sized beam at 110 feet which worked much better. 
Several stations around the world have antenna systems
that cover many acres and cost 6 or 7 figures and they
work very well.  On the other hand, I knew a ham in
1976 who set out to work all states using a Weller
Soldering Gun laying on his hamshack floor for an
antenna.  He was however, driving it with a kilowatt
and an expensive antenna tuner.

The G5RV antenna and its variations is a clever design
and allows working most bands with the assistance of a
good antenna tuner.  My 160 meter Carolina Windom is a
different design that does the same and I have worked
DXCC with it in less than a year's time.  Both are
wire antennas and not very expensive, but not free
either.  The most expensive thing is ground to install
them where antenna restrictions don't bring down the
wrath of the taste police. (I have been trying for
over 50 years to convince the world that antennas are
beautiful, but without success) Neither can compete in
a match with a good tri-bander at 60 feet.

Helix antennas will work.  They will not work as well
as a full sized antenna.  The Outbacker and the
Hamstick come to mind as helix antennas that work. 
The shorter that you make them, the less efficient
they are but we all know that in some instances we can
reduce power to a watt or less and still maintain
communication.  The same goes for antennas.  The
rubber duck on your hand held will work a repeater if
you are close enough.  A quarter wave will work the
repeater from farther away.  Either one will work
better if you go to the roof of a 10 story building
instead of standing on the ground.  Either antenna
will work better outside and in the clear than in a
building.

Antenna selection, like most things in life, requires
a lot of compromising. You have to live with your
budget, your living circumstances, the XYL and your
local taste police.  But, there is no free lunch!  You
can move, you can get a new XYL, but you can't cheat
Mother Nature.

Cookie, K5EWJ 
--- David Cutter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I seem to remember a 40m beam made this way in one
> of the old ARRL books.
> 
> David
> G3UNA
> >
> > While Cookie's comments are true, there is a
> useful type of short antenna 
> > known as a Normal Mode Helix, which if built,
> tuned and matched correctly 
> 
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[Elecraft] Paint Touchup

[David Robertson]

If you use a dab of paint to touchup a screw hole you take a chance of 
permanently "gluing" the screw into the hole. If you use something like a Magic 
Marker then no gluing occures.

73
Dave KD1NA
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[Elecraft] K1 S-meter / AGC problems

[Strode, Carl R]

I'm knee - deep into building a K1
 
Last night - right before my mandatory bedtime I performed the receiver
alignment and tests.  
 
Everything worked A-OK, with the exception of the S-Meter and AGC.
 
There appears to be no S-meter response, and the AGC does not seem to be
working.
 
With the K1 and my K2 connected to the same antenna a S-6 on the air
signal (as indicated by the K2 S-meter) provides no response on the K1
S-Meter.  I also cranked up the K-2 power to 100 watts to the antenna
and monitored the signal with a hank of wire attached to the K1 antenna
jack - REALLY loud signal, but still no S-meter response.
 
The K1 S-meter consistently shows one bar regardless of input signal
strength.
 
The S-meter bar graph test pattern (i.e. brief display of all the bars)
functions when DISPLAY is pressed.
 
I checked the S-meter zero and full-scale settings.  If the S-meter zero
settings is adjusted with the SIG function, the S-meter bars increase
and decrease as described on page 53 of the manual, however there is
still no response to input signals.  Adjusting the full scale setting
similarly does not change response to input signals levels.
 
Due to my assigned bedtime, I was unable to perform the voltage checks
at U1, U2,Q1, Q2, D2 in the troubleshooting table.  Now, I'm at my desk
at work, unable to concentrate on my livelihood.
 
Please offer some suggestions so I can keep my day job!
 
 
Carl Strode
373-4421
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Elecraft] Re: WB3AAL on the Appalachian Trail on 8 Jan 2008

[Ron Polityka]

Sorry, I will be out on the AT on 5 Jan. 2008.

72 and Thanks,
Ron Polityka
WB3AAL
www.wb3aal.com
www.n3epa.org/

K1 - SN 01011
K2 - SN 01392

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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

David, the beam was descibed in the 13th (1974) edition of the ARRL 
handbook, perhaps in an earlier edition also, it performed well..


73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

David Cutter  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I seem to remember a 40m beam made this way in one of the old ARRL books.

David
G3UNA


While Cookie's comments are true, there is a useful type of short antenna 
known as a Normal Mode Helix, which if built, tuned and matched correctly


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RE: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

We're back to wanting our RF "superconductor" again .

First, to add a note to the original question, it's useful to think of the
RF field as flowing OVER the outside of the conductor, so a helix (coil) or
any form of zig-zag arrangement of wires simply look like fat conductors to
the RF field. In this case a very short, fat conductor. The normal rule of
thumb for fitting an antenna into a limited space is to avoid any bends
sharper than 90 degrees in the wires. Once the bend is greater than 90
degrees, the overall length of the wire - as "seen" by the RF field - is no
longer as long as the conductor. Instead it begins to look like a conductor
of varying thickness whose length is about equal to the gross distance from
one end of the antenna to the other, ignoring the bends or turns (as in a
coil). Current does flow through the conductor (wire) but the important
point here is that the field generated by the currents doesn't follow the
wire when it bends or turns too sharply. 

To transfer power to an antenna efficiently we need to balance the
capacitive reactance with the inductive reactance so the currents and
voltages are in phase (the condition we normally refer to as "resonance"). A
half wave wire - a "dipole" - is one in which the natural capacitive
reactance of the wire matches the inductive reactance of the wire at what we
call the 'resonant frequency'. A Marconi - 1/4 wave radiator that is
grounded at one end - achieves the same thing with the lower inductive
reactance of the 1/4 wave wire being matched by the higher capacitive
reactance between the wire and the earth or some artificial ground such as a
ground plane or counterpoise. 

A short radiator has lower capacitive reactance, so we need to add inductive
reactance to a short antenna to achieve resonance.

For an coil to show inductance it must have current flowing through it. The
more current, the more inductance for a given number of turns on the coil. A
coil also has loss resistance since we don't have the perfect
"superconductor" handy. That loss resistance is much, much greater than the
d-c resistance since RF currents flow only along the very surface of a
conductor. The ideal RF coil uses the best conductor material available and
it uses a very large conductor for maximum surface area (although it can be
a very thin tube, if desired, since no significant current flows below the
surface). That's why high-efficiency RF coils tend to be large and use large
sized conductors that are often silver-plated. 

For the highest current to flow to minimize the amount of inductance needed,
we might put the coil near a "current loop" or point of maximum current (the
center of a dipole or the ground end of a 1/4 wave "Marconi" antenna). The
problem with that is that higher current equals greater resistive losses. If
we move the coil farther out toward a voltage loop (minimum current) we need
more turns to reach resonance. More turns means more wire which means more
resistive losses. 

A popular compromise is to put the coil about half way in between the loops.
On a short "Marconi" radiator, such as a mobile "whip" used on a car, that
puts the coil in the center, halfway between the base and the tip. On a
short dipole, one needs two coils about half way between the current loop at
the center and the voltage loops (the electrostatic 'poles' in a dipole) at
the ends.

A third approach is to continuously load the radiator with a helical
conductor such as Shaun mentioned. To the RF field, it's still a short
radiator, so it needs inductive reactance to achieve resonance. That
reactance is provided by making a long coil the length of the radiator. 

In all of these approaches, the biggest problem is resistive losses in the
wire. 

If we only had that perfect RF superconductor, we could make short antennas
as efficient as full-sized antennas. But then our full sized antennas would
be more efficient too! 

Lacking our RF superconductor, some designs use "capacitive hats" at the
ends of the antenna. These are discs, or disc-shaped constructions of wire
or tubing that don't add to the physical length - presumably we can't make
the antenna any longer or we would - but they do increase the
self-capacitance of the radiator. Increasing that capacitance reduces the
inductance needed and hence the losses in the inductor needed to establish
resonance. 

Ron AC7AC


-Original Message-
I seem to remember a 40m beam made this way in one of the old ARRL books.

David
G3UNA
>
> While Cookie's comments are true, there is a useful type of short 
> antenna
> known as a Normal Mode Helix, which if built, tuned and matched correctly 

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_

RE: [Elecraft] Silly Question

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I've had that happen to me in a CW rag chew a few times. They other guy
catches the 'craft' and jumps to a conclusion, then usually comments that he
always enjoys working guys with antique rigs. 

I resist the temptation to say I enjoy working guys with antique ears. 

As my daddy always said, "He who jumps to conclusions often falls on his
a$$." 

I should know. I have lots of experience! 

Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-

Tom McCulloch wrote:
> 
> That not a silly question at all, I think its a good one.
> 
> Is it "Ella" or "Elly"?
> 
> I'm a CW guy so I don't get to "hear" it on the air...but it seems 
> that most of the times I've heard in eyeball qso's its been "Elly".
> 
> I have heard the origin of the name is indeed from "Elegant" and 
> "Craft" as Mike points out.
> 
> 73/72 de,
> Tom WB2QDG (with the New York accent).
> k2 1103
> 
> 

When I tell old timers who don't read the ham comics or the various web
reflectors that I have one of those Ellycraft radios, they all as one reply
".a Hallicrafters..?"

73,

Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF

Ellycraft K3 #0145
-- 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: peeling paint and countersunk screw holes

[Bill W5WVO]

Doug,

It's not just you. This was common practice for military-spec gear, at least. 
I noted this on my 1960-vintage R-390A receiver front panel the first time I 
took it apart. The flathead screw countersinks were all masked before the 
panel was painted.


As Don has pointed out, however, this is not relevant to the Elecraft radios.

Bill W5WVO


DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote:

On 30/12/07 22:58, "John Buck"  sent:


I also noticed that tightening the
cover screws tends to peel some of the paint in the countersink area
for the screw heads.


And other have subsequently commented/noted this too

Is it just me, or wasn't it common practice in the OLDE days to
intentionally remove paint at screw-down points?  I remember sanding
paint off of the inside covers of my some of my equipment, including a
Ten Tec Titan amp which had paint everywhere.

Has something changed or am I misunderstanding what is being said?

Thanks,
de Doug KR2Q
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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[David Yarnes]

Shaun, Dohn, and All,

Your proposal to wrap wire around pipe will probably end up being a "bust". 
In essence, you would just be loading a coil, and it would be very 
inefficient as a radiator.  Some have tried to use a "helical" approach in 
order to shorten the overall length, but again that doesn't work all that 
well either.  An example would be using the old "Slinkey" wire toys that we 
all probably had at one time or another.  Those can work, after a fashion, 
but are generally poor performers.


I disagree about the G5RV also.  That is not a very good antenna, 
notwithstanding the huge amount of use those antennas get.  The problem is 
that the G5RV was never intended to be an "all band" antenna, and it is a 
performer on all but a couple of bands.  Unless you use a tuner, you will be 
very unhappy with the results you get with a G5RV design, particularly with 
modern rigs that don't have the advantage older tube-type transmitters had 
with  pi-network coupling.   The warts that a G5RV has is well documented, 
and the latest thing I remember reading about it was in a recent issue of 
Sprat--the Spring 2007 issue.  Therein is a discussion by ex-ZS6BKW, who is 
famous for originating much of the variations for the G5RV that are in use 
today.  Paraphrasing his own words, don't expect much from a G5RV unless you 
at least use a tuner!


Unless you want to put up some sort of trap dipole, or a multi-band 
vertical, your best option is to get a decent tuner and put up a dipole with 
balanced line feeders.  The 88 foot antenna described by L.B. Cebik on his 
website (www.cebik.com), is an excellent choice for a simple antenna that 
will work well on 80 meters through 10 meter.  You can shorten that to 44 
feet if you want to give up 80 meters.  That will fit in just about anyone's 
backyard, unless you live in a condo.  The higher you get it, the better it 
will work.  Just don't use coax, or the losses will eat you alive!  You can 
coax feed an antenna that is resonant with good results.  But when you try 
to use it on a higher frequency (like using an 80 meter coax fed antenna on 
40 meters), the results turn to mush.  The same antenna fed with balanced 
line through a tuner will work substantially better at higher frequencies. 
The resonant antenna (130 feet on 80) works better than the 88 foot antenna 
does on 80, but the 88 foot version (or the 44 foot version) is intended to 
standardize your radiation pattern, and is still a decent performer on 80 
meters.


Another option would be a remotely tuned vertical on your roof.  Dr. 
Megacycle (KK6MC), suggested this to me not long ago when he visited my 
shack.  His advice was to put up a 22 foot vertical, remotely tuned, and 
using balanced feedline.  This would give you pretty decent performance from 
40 meters through 10 meters.  You would need as many radials (random length) 
as possible.  This was a suggestion as an alternative to my R7 vertical, 
which is a pretty good performer, but perhaps not as good as the suggested 
alternative.  I haven't tried that yet, but I'd like to.  I'm sure the 
suggestion is a good one.


This may be more than you wanted to hear, but it seemed as if you were 
struggling to come up with a solution.  Hopefully it helps some in that 
process.  If wire antennas, or verticals, are just not practical for you, 
you might want to try a mini-loop.  These aren't nearly as efficient as a 
good wire antenna, but they are quite small, and the results can often 
surprise you.  Besides, they are fun to build!


Dave W7AQK



- Original Message - 
From: "Dohn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Shaun Oliver'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 


Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency



Shaun,

For materials needed vs. radio theory, you just can't beat a G5RV antenna.
IMHO I've used mine with my K1, K2 and several home brew projs and it 
works
great time and again.  Yes, you want to get the center up there a ways. 
Say

around 35-40 feet, but the payoff was good for me.  There are a number of
sites out there that have good versions of a very old, classic antenna.
Very few parts (all of which can be made with junk around the house.  Very
little investment for a sound payoff.

Dohn   N8EWY

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shaun Oliver
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:20 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

Hi all,
if I were to make a dipole, would coiling it round a piece of plastic
piping decrease the efficiency of the thing? I intend on making one for
40 meters, one for 80 meters, and one for 10 meters. I've worked out
that1 meter of piping will suffice for each leg of each antenna.
thanks in advance.
shaun
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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[David Cutter]

I seem to remember a 40m beam made this way in one of the old ARRL books.

David
G3UNA


While Cookie's comments are true, there is a useful type of short antenna 
known as a Normal Mode Helix, which if built, tuned and matched correctly 


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Re: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Shaun Oliver  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

if I were to make a dipole, would coiling it round a piece of plastic 
piping decrease the efficiency of the thing? I intend on making one for 40 
meters, one for 80 meters, and one for 10 meters. I've worked out that1 
meter of piping will suffice for each leg of each antenna.

thanks in advance.
shaun


Cookie, K5EWJ wrote:


Shaun, it will decrease the efficiency drastically.  A
two meter long 80 meter dipole will be about 10% as
efficient as one 40 meters long at the same height.



You
can't cheat the laws of physics, they work the same
even if no body is watching.  In
addition, the antenna you are considering will have an
impedance of only an ohm or two and be almost
impossible to match.


---

While Cookie's comments are true, there is a useful type of short antenna 
known as a Normal Mode Helix, which if built, tuned and matched correctly 
can work as well as a full size dipole at the same height - although its 
VSWR (say 2:1 for example) bandwidth is narrower than that of a full size 
dipole. It consists of wire wound around a fibreglass or plastic rod / pipe 
with the turns spaced, not closewound. If plastic pipe is used it must have 
good RF 'Insulating' characteristics i.e if a piece 'cooks' when placed in a 
microwave oven, when your XYL is not looking, do not use that material. For 
80m and 40m a pipe diameter of 2 1/2 inches is about right, for 10m 3/4 inch 
or thereabouts. The total length of wire in a NM Helix 'dipole' is 
approximately one wavelength, equations do exist which could be used to 
calculate the length but I have yet to find an equation which is exact 
enough to eliminate the need to tweak. The length of pipe for a 40m NM 
Helical 'dipole' is close to 6 metres, the length could be reduced by 
increasing the pipe's diameter but there is a limit beyond which the 
radiation pattern suffers. Very short and effective NM Helix antennas have 
been built using additional end loading such as hats, but their drive point 
impedance is very low and difficult to match efficiently and the VSWR 
bandwidth becomes narrower.


The 'Rubber Duck' antenna sometimes used on mobile phones is one type of NM 
Helix antenna.


73,
Geoff
GM4ESD



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RE: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

[Dohn]

Shaun,

For materials needed vs. radio theory, you just can't beat a G5RV antenna.
IMHO I've used mine with my K1, K2 and several home brew projs and it works
great time and again.  Yes, you want to get the center up there a ways.  Say
around 35-40 feet, but the payoff was good for me.  There are a number of
sites out there that have good versions of a very old, classic antenna.
Very few parts (all of which can be made with junk around the house.  Very
little investment for a sound payoff.

Dohn   N8EWY

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shaun Oliver
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:20 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] dipole antenna efficiency

Hi all,
if I were to make a dipole, would coiling it round a piece of plastic 
piping decrease the efficiency of the thing? I intend on making one for 
40 meters, one for 80 meters, and one for 10 meters. I've worked out 
that1 meter of piping will suffice for each leg of each antenna.
thanks in advance.
shaun
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Cabinet Scrape Repair

[David Ferrington, M0XDF]

Well, I guess that's definitely a recommendation them :)


On 4/1/08 00:37, "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:

> I have found that a touch with a "permanent" black marker pen does the job
> beautifully.
> 
> (What? Me scratch my K3? N...) Actually, my K3 has been
> assembled and disassembled probably more often than any single unit in
> existence:  from fully assembled to fully disassembled at least 20 times,
> maybe more, plus absolutely countless partial disassembly operations (it's
> half torn down right now - front panel off, etc.) So I have picked up a few
> dings on the edges and scraped screws, all of which have responded
> beautifully to a touch with the black marker.
> 
> Ron AC7AC

-- 
Black holes are where God divided by zero.
-Steven Wright, comedian (1955-)


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Re: [Elecraft] Silly Question

[TWC]

GW0ETF skrev:


Tom McCulloch wrote:
  

That not a silly question at all, I think its a good one.

Is it "Ella" or "Elly"?

I'm a CW guy so I don't get to "hear" it on the air...but it seems that
most
of the times I've heard in eyeball qso's its been "Elly".

I have heard the origin of the name is indeed from "Elegant" and "Craft"
as
Mike points out.

73/72 de,
Tom WB2QDG (with the New York accent).
k2 1103





When I tell old timers who don't read the ham comics or the various web
reflectors that I have one of those Ellycraft radios, they all as one reply
".a Hallicrafters..?"

73,

Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF

Ellycraft K3 #0145
  


The question is not silly at all.
And the answer is presented by Eric & Wayne on elecraft.com, page 'Home':

/How do you say Elecraft?/*Ele *(as in "Elegant") *+ Craft.

*

Best 73's,
Rolf
SMØYQC
K2 #4979

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Re: [Elecraft] Silly Question

[Leo Bricker K5LDB]

I've always been under the impression it's EL uh kraft.

Is it "Ella" or "Elly"?


--
73 K5LDB
--
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

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Re: [Elecraft] Silly Question

[GW0ETF]

Tom McCulloch wrote:
> 
> That not a silly question at all, I think its a good one.
> 
> Is it "Ella" or "Elly"?
> 
> I'm a CW guy so I don't get to "hear" it on the air...but it seems that
> most
> of the times I've heard in eyeball qso's its been "Elly".
> 
> I have heard the origin of the name is indeed from "Elegant" and "Craft"
> as
> Mike points out.
> 
> 73/72 de,
> Tom WB2QDG (with the New York accent).
> k2 1103
> 
> 

When I tell old timers who don't read the ham comics or the various web
reflectors that I have one of those Ellycraft radios, they all as one reply
".a Hallicrafters..?"

73,

Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF

Ellycraft K3 #0145
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Silly-Question-tp14606692p14612505.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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