Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Fred Jensen]

A colleague at work showed up with a fairly bad case of poison oak.  We 
lived in a rural area in the Sierra Nevada foothills, had a lot of 
poison oak, and also had a lot of manzanita, the leaves of which, when 
boiled to make a solution and spread on, will really help.  So, I 
collected a bag of leaves for him, and told him to "boil the leaves and 
use the solution with cotton balls."  Next morning, he wasn't any 
better.  I asked him if he'd done what I said.  He replied, "Yes, I used 
the whole pan, and it tastes terrible!  I was barely able to get it 
down.  What was I supposed to do with the cotton balls?"


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County


On Sep 25, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
nice burn.


elecraft.com


On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:

There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:

Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated and 
there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when using 
the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn on my hand 
at this point once!

Steve
AA8AF






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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Ed Hopton via Elecraft]

Ghost or Carolina Reaper chilies, yes! RF or poison oak...NO!
73,
Ed N3CMI


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Hank via Elecraft
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2022 7:13 PM
To: Wayne Burdick 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

Sometimes the burn feels good!

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
> nice burn. 
> 
> 
> elecraft.com
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>> 
>> There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>> 
>> Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:
>>> Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated 
>>> and there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when 
>>> using the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn 
>>> on my hand at this point once!
>>> 
>>> Steve
>>> AA8AF
>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of 
>>>> the radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian 
>>>> mobile and should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the 
>>>> wire breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance 
>>>> of the AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but 
>>>> close. The auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned 
>>>> earlier compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the 
>>>> AX2 is a single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus 
>>>> it’s even a lot lower profile than the AX1.
>>>> If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to 
>>>> the KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Hank via Elecraft]

Sometimes the burn feels good!

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
> nice burn. 
> 
> 
> elecraft.com
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>> 
>> There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>> 
>> Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:
>>> Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated 
>>> and there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when 
>>> using the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn 
>>> on my hand at this point once!
>>> 
>>> Steve
>>> AA8AF
>>> 
> On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
 
 The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of 
 the radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian 
 mobile and should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the 
 wire breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance 
 of the AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but 
 close. The auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned 
 earlier compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the 
 AX2 is a single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus 
 it’s even a lot lower profile than the AX1.
 If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to 
 the KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

No. But try on a little poison oak followed by a hot shower. OMG. That’s the 
nice burn. 


elecraft.com

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
> 
> There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
> 
> Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:
>> Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated 
>> and there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when 
>> using the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn on 
>> my hand at this point once!
>> 
>> Steve
>> AA8AF
>> 
 On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of 
>>> the radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian 
>>> mobile and should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the 
>>> wire breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance of 
>>> the AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but close. 
>>> The auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned earlier 
>>> compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the AX2 is a 
>>> single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus it’s even a 
>>> lot lower profile than the AX1.
>>> If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to 
>>> the KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Fred Jensen]

There is no such thing as a "nice" RF burn.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Steve L wrote on 9/24/2022 6:36 PM:

Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated and 
there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when using 
the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn on my hand 
at this point once!

Steve
AA8AF


On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:

The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of the 
radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian mobile and 
should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the wire 
breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance of the AX1 
(or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but close. The auto 
tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned earlier compensates 
for all of the other variables. Just a note that the AX2 is a single band coil 
and can be modified for different bands. Plus it’s even a lot lower profile 
than the AX1.
If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to the 
KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!





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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Steve L]

Caution when using this location:  Make sure your counterpoise is insulated and 
there’s no way to contact bare metal at this point with your hand when using 
the KX2 hand-held ‘walkie-talkie’ style.  I received a nice RF burn on my hand 
at this point once!  

Steve
AA8AF

> On Sep 24, 2022, at 3:37 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
> 
> The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of the 
> radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian mobile and 
> should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the wire 
> breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance of the 
> AX1 (or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but close. The 
> auto tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned earlier 
> compensates for all of the other variables. Just a note that the AX2 is a 
> single band coil and can be modified for different bands. Plus it’s even a 
> lot lower profile than the AX1.  
> If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to the 
> KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wes]

No, actually, what he said that you left off says things that counter your 
comments.

On 9/24/2022 1:47 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 9/24/2022 12:31 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
I haven't done much portable operation except for Field Day, and when I do I 
have access to tall trees for some pretty good wire antennas ... including 
wire yagis.


Dave,

This sentence says it all.


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Dan Presley]

The other nice feature of the KX2 is the mini banana jack on the side of the 
radio for attaching the counterpoise . It’s perfect for pedestrian mobile and 
should you encounter some sort of snag it’ll pop out before the wire 
breaks.Wayne can better comment than me,but I believe the resonance of the AX1 
(or AX2 I presume) it’s not right within the 20M band, but close. The auto 
tuner easily takes care of matching and as Wayne mentioned earlier compensates 
for all of the other variables. Just a note that the AX2 is a single band coil 
and can be modified for different bands. Plus it’s even a lot lower profile 
than the AX1.  
If you want to see some fun videos of using the AX1 directly attached to the 
KX2 search on YouTube for HB9BZG-SOTA from the Swiss Alps!

Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley@me. com 
n7...@arrl.net


> On Sep 24, 2022, at 09:40, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> The wire drags behind you. This is why we sometimes call it a "dragged 
> counterpoise."
> 
> The wire supplied with the AX1, AX2, and AXE1 is quite slippery and unlikely 
> to snag on anything. I've dragged it between cacti in the deserts of New 
> Mexico; across serpentine outcrops along the Pacific coast; and though the 
> urban jungles of Belmont, California, bristling with spiky xeriscape.
> 
> W
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 24, 2022, at 7:41 AM,   wrote:
>> 
>> I'm curious about your pedestrian mobile statement.  What do you do with the
>> 13 foot counterpoise, does it drag behind you when walking? I doubt that you
>> can make a QSO without it.  Also with the 13 foot counterpoise, what 20m
>> frequency is the AX1 resonant on?
>> 
>> John KK9A 
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Presley n7cqr wrote:
>> 
>> Second-I want to hear from Dave AB7E in particular what antenna(s) you use
>> when you're operating in the field,and specifically when you can't set up a
>> wire; maybe no trees or a bare summit, or as Thomas K4SWL talks about-when
>> you really don't or can't throw up a wire (check out his blog on recent
>> operations in Canada). Or pedestrian mobile. So far I've seen nothing that
>> is as compact,lightweight  and easily packable as the AX1 or 2, and that's
>> important to me when  I'm hiking. 
>> 
>> Dan Presley 503-701-3871
>> danpresley at me. com 
>> N7CQR at arrl.net
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

The wire drags behind you. This is why we sometimes call it a "dragged 
counterpoise."

The wire supplied with the AX1, AX2, and AXE1 is quite slippery and unlikely to 
snag on anything. I've dragged it between cacti in the deserts of New Mexico; 
across serpentine outcrops along the Pacific coast; and though the urban 
jungles of Belmont, California, bristling with spiky xeriscape.

W



> On Sep 24, 2022, at 7:41 AM,   wrote:
> 
> I'm curious about your pedestrian mobile statement.  What do you do with the
> 13 foot counterpoise, does it drag behind you when walking? I doubt that you
> can make a QSO without it.  Also with the 13 foot counterpoise, what 20m
> frequency is the AX1 resonant on?
> 
> John KK9A 
> 
> 
> Dan Presley n7cqr wrote:
> 
> Second-I want to hear from Dave AB7E in particular what antenna(s) you use
> when you're operating in the field,and specifically when you can't set up a
> wire; maybe no trees or a bare summit, or as Thomas K4SWL talks about-when
> you really don't or can't throw up a wire (check out his blog on recent
> operations in Canada). Or pedestrian mobile. So far I've seen nothing that
> is as compact,lightweight  and easily packable as the AX1 or 2, and that's
> important to me when  I'm hiking. 
> 
> Dan Presley 503-701-3871
> danpresley at me. com 
> N7CQR at arrl.net
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[john]

I'm curious about your pedestrian mobile statement.  What do you do with the
13 foot counterpoise, does it drag behind you when walking? I doubt that you
can make a QSO without it.  Also with the 13 foot counterpoise, what 20m
frequency is the AX1 resonant on?

John KK9A 


Dan Presley n7cqr wrote:

Second-I want to hear from Dave AB7E in particular what antenna(s) you use
when you're operating in the field,and specifically when you can't set up a
wire; maybe no trees or a bare summit, or as Thomas K4SWL talks about-when
you really don't or can't throw up a wire (check out his blog on recent
operations in Canada). Or pedestrian mobile. So far I've seen nothing that
is as compact,lightweight  and easily packable as the AX1 or 2, and that's
important to me when  I'm hiking. 

Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley at me. com 
N7CQR at arrl.net

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna. Cudos for Wayne

[Jim Brown]

On 9/24/2022 3:09 AM, David Wilcox wrote:
I was an early TenTec follower too and miss them dearly. 


And so was I -- and founder Al Kahn who sold Electro-Voice, another 
great American company he co-founded in the '30s, did a lot to keep 
Heathkit and ARRL alive during WWII, and founded Ten Tec, with a factory 
across the road from EV's in TN.


In those days, Collins at the high price point, and Ten Tec and Drake at 
the lower point, were dedicated to quality. Everyone associated with 
those great companies has been in the ground for many years. Elecraft 
founders and Owners, Wayne Burdick and Eric Swartz, are their more than 
worthy successors. I currently own four of their radios and two of their 
power amps, and they're they are by far they best I've owned.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Jim Brown]

On 9/24/2022 12:31 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
I haven't done much portable operation except for Field Day, and when I 
do I have access to tall trees for some pretty good wire antennas ... 
including wire yagis.


Dave,

This sentence says it all. Your experience and hamming is very different 
from theirs. I've done a bit of both, in a pretty wide variety of 
situations. Backpacking is VERY different, and that's part of what SOTA 
is all about. And every setup I've done, and I've done very different 
ones, applied what I knew about how stuff works to the specific problem 
I was trying to solve. THAT is what ENGINEERING is all about -- it is 
the definition of engineering. That was my day gig when I was working -- 
designing sound systems for specific uses for a specific space where 
they would be used. It's not about using ideal principals to an ideal 
problem.


W6GJB and I have set up QRP on ridge tops with a KX3, a wire taped to a 
telescoping pole, and a suitable length of #22 laying on low brush as a 
counterpoise. We worked four continents in 15 minutes. About 20 years 
ago, I used a similar setup with a K2 on 30M in a suburban park north of 
Chicago as part of a QRP night for our local club. I got through the 
pileup to work a DXpedition. Photo is at the top of my qrz page.


One of things i enjoy doing is surveying a ham's QTH to help him think 
about what antennas in what locations that can be rigged at HIS QTH, 
with HIS restrictions, optimized HIS operating goals, and HIS budget.


Wayne did a fine piece of engineering for the AX-1. It's not the ideal 
antenna for EVERY application, but it's a useful design for several 
forms of portable operation, especially if the user has bothered to 
learn enough about how antennas work to apply it intelligently.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[David Gilbert]

I haven't done much portable operation except for Field Day, and when I 
do I have access to tall trees for some pretty good wire antennas ... 
including wire yagis.


But I did make a portable vertical antenna that I can set up anywhere.  
It uses four 4' long 1/2 inch diameter aluminum tubes that fit together 
end to end, sitting on top of another 4' long 1/2 inch diameter graphite 
rod as a base.  Four radial wires act as guys for the top of the 
graphite rod, and four thin nylon lines act as guys about 2/3 of the way 
up the vertical.  The radials and the nylon guys lead to the same four 
stakes (or rocks, as the case may be).  I've timed myself and I can put 
it up by myself in about ten minutes, and everything fits in a backpack 
except for the five 4' lengths that I can easily carry as a bundle with 
one hand as I walk.  It feeds very easily with the tuner in my KX2.  It 
was of course designed for 20m, but I've also been able to get a good 
match with the tuner on 40m and 15m.


I couldn't care less about pedestrian mobile, and it's no more hassle 
for me to carry that antenna to set up somewhere than it would be to 
carry a hiking stick.  The heaviest antenna item in the backpack are the 
stakes.


I once set the antenna up on my deck and monitored PSK Reporter for FT8 
signals on 20m over the course of 24 hours.  I got hundreds of hits 
across the entire U.S., of course, but also dozens in Europe, dozens in 
southeast Asia, a couple in Africa, and 8 or so in central Asia.  I can 
send you the screenshot if you'd like.


Maybe some day I'll make a YouTube video of setting it up and making 
contacts to see how far I can get with it.


Dave  AB7E



On 9/23/2022 11:10 PM, Dan Presley wrote:

I wanted to revisit this discussion to add a perspective that I think needs to 
be considered. First,as far as modeling short verticals I believe it’s possible 
to use something like the ‘poor man’s’ AX1 that Doug Hendricks developed at 
Pacificon in 2019.  A group of us from Oregon went and participated in the 
build,and subsequently Doug posted the plans and parts list in the QRP 
quarterly. So if you don’t want to obtain or borrow an AX1 for testing here’s 
an inexpensive alternative. Build it and give us your results.

Second-I want to hear from Dave AB7E in particular what antenna(s) you use when 
you’re operating in the field,and specifically when you can’t set up a wire; 
maybe no trees or a bare summit, or as Thomas K4SWL talks about-when you really 
don’t or can’t throw up a wire (check out his blog on recent operations in 
Canada). Or pedestrian mobile. So far I’ve seen nothing that is as 
compact,lightweight  and easily packable as the AX1 or 2, and that’s important 
to me when  I’m hiking. Each part is no more than 6” in length or less. Oh-and 
by the way I just completed another’S2S’ (summit to summit) contact on 30M 
using the 40/30 add on coil with the AX1 with KR7RK from Oregon to AZ both at 
5W.
Personally I always prefer a wire antenna if possible-either an end fed or as 
is spelled out in the manuals for the KX3 and KX2, a length of wire about 25-28 
feet with a counterpoise. But sometimes it’s not an option. Share with us..I’m 
always wanting to hear what others do or build. How do you solve this?? Thanks.

Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley@me. com
n7...@arrl.net



On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:09, Wayne Burdick  wrote:


On Sep 22, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Jim Clymer  wrote:



On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:28 AM Wayne Burdick  wrote:
Yes indeed.

This is why you need an ATU when using such antennas. The ATU can correct for 
terrain, counterpoise length and deployment, body capacitance, conductors 
associated with other connected devices, etc.

Wayne

So that would lead me to believe that matching requirements for bicycle mobile 
with a trailing counterpoise would be a moving target.

I haven't tried that myself but yeah, probably.

However, radios like the KX2 and KX3 are tolerant of dynamic SWR variations. 
For example if you hit the ATU button at some point and the SWR goes to 1:1, 
then walk (or bike) over varied terrain that causes the SWR To vary from 1:1 to 
2:1, the radio won't complain. Only if the SWR gets really high will power 
rollback occur.

Without the ATU, and using an electrically short/narrowband antenna, you might 
see SWR vary from 1:1 to 10:1.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Dan Presley]

I wanted to revisit this discussion to add a perspective that I think needs to 
be considered. First,as far as modeling short verticals I believe it’s possible 
to use something like the ‘poor man’s’ AX1 that Doug Hendricks developed at 
Pacificon in 2019.  A group of us from Oregon went and participated in the 
build,and subsequently Doug posted the plans and parts list in the QRP 
quarterly. So if you don’t want to obtain or borrow an AX1 for testing here’s 
an inexpensive alternative. Build it and give us your results. 

Second-I want to hear from Dave AB7E in particular what antenna(s) you use when 
you’re operating in the field,and specifically when you can’t set up a wire; 
maybe no trees or a bare summit, or as Thomas K4SWL talks about-when you really 
don’t or can’t throw up a wire (check out his blog on recent operations in 
Canada). Or pedestrian mobile. So far I’ve seen nothing that is as 
compact,lightweight  and easily packable as the AX1 or 2, and that’s important 
to me when  I’m hiking. Each part is no more than 6” in length or less. Oh-and 
by the way I just completed another’S2S’ (summit to summit) contact on 30M 
using the 40/30 add on coil with the AX1 with KR7RK from Oregon to AZ both at 
5W. 
Personally I always prefer a wire antenna if possible-either an end fed or as 
is spelled out in the manuals for the KX3 and KX2, a length of wire about 25-28 
feet with a counterpoise. But sometimes it’s not an option. Share with us..I’m 
always wanting to hear what others do or build. How do you solve this?? Thanks. 

Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley@me. com 
n7...@arrl.net


> On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:09, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 22, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Jim Clymer  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:28 AM Wayne Burdick  wrote:
>> Yes indeed.
>> 
>> This is why you need an ATU when using such antennas. The ATU can correct 
>> for terrain, counterpoise length and deployment, body capacitance, 
>> conductors associated with other connected devices, etc.
>> 
>> Wayne
>> 
>> So that would lead me to believe that matching requirements for bicycle 
>> mobile with a trailing counterpoise would be a moving target.
> 
> I haven't tried that myself but yeah, probably.
> 
> However, radios like the KX2 and KX3 are tolerant of dynamic SWR variations. 
> For example if you hit the ATU button at some point and the SWR goes to 1:1, 
> then walk (or bike) over varied terrain that causes the SWR To vary from 1:1 
> to 2:1, the radio won't complain. Only if the SWR gets really high will power 
> rollback occur.
> 
> Without the ATU, and using an electrically short/narrowband antenna, you 
> might see SWR vary from 1:1 to 10:1. 
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

> On Sep 22, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Jim Clymer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:28 AM Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> Yes indeed.
> 
> This is why you need an ATU when using such antennas. The ATU can correct for 
> terrain, counterpoise length and deployment, body capacitance, conductors 
> associated with other connected devices, etc.
> 
> Wayne
> 
> So that would lead me to believe that matching requirements for bicycle 
> mobile with a trailing counterpoise would be a moving target.

I haven't tried that myself but yeah, probably.

However, radios like the KX2 and KX3 are tolerant of dynamic SWR variations. 
For example if you hit the ATU button at some point and the SWR goes to 1:1, 
then walk (or bike) over varied terrain that causes the SWR To vary from 1:1 to 
2:1, the radio won't complain. Only if the SWR gets really high will power 
rollback occur.

Without the ATU, and using an electrically short/narrowband antenna, you might 
see SWR vary from 1:1 to 10:1. 

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Jim Clymer]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:28 AM Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> Yes indeed.
>
> This is why you need an ATU when using such antennas. The ATU can correct
> for terrain, counterpoise length and deployment, body capacitance,
> conductors associated with other connected devices, etc.
>
> Wayne
>

So that would lead me to believe that matching requirements for bicycle
> mobile with a trailing counterpoise would be a moving target.

Jim - WS6X

>
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

Yes indeed.

This is why you need an ATU when using such antennas. The ATU can correct for 
terrain, counterpoise length and deployment, body capacitance, conductors 
associated with other connected devices, etc.

Wayne


> On Sep 21, 2022, at 11:52 PM, Dave (NK7Z)  wrote:
> 
> Then I believe the case, and everything connected to the case ground, will 
> become part of the antenna system.
> 
> 73,
> Dave,
> https://www.nk7z.net
> On 9/21/22 23:08, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> So yes, it CAN be a fact that the coax feedline to the AX1 could be doing 
>>> more of the radiating than the whip, depending on length. :)
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> The primary use-case for the AX1 is directly attached the radio -- coax 
>> length zero.
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Jim Brown]

On 9/21/2022 11:52 PM, Dave (NK7Z) wrote:
Then I believe the case, and everything connected to the case ground, 
will become part of the antenna system.


Yep.

The counterpoise for VHF/UHF talkies is the operator's body, capacity 
coupled to the case. It's also possible to improve TX slightly (a dB or 
two) by adding a quarter-wave wire under the screw-on mount for the 
antenna. That's equivalent to Wayne suggests by trailing a wire.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Dave (NK7Z)]

Then I believe the case, and everything connected to the case ground, 
will become part of the antenna system.


73,
Dave,
https://www.nk7z.net
On 9/21/22 23:08, Wayne Burdick wrote:

So yes, it CAN be a fact that the coax feedline to the AX1 could be doing more 
of the radiating than the whip, depending on length. :)

73, Jim K9YC



The primary use-case for the AX1 is directly attached the radio -- coax length 
zero.

Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

> So yes, it CAN be a fact that the coax feedline to the AX1 could be doing 
> more of the radiating than the whip, depending on length. :)
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC


The primary use-case for the AX1 is directly attached the radio -- coax length 
zero.

Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Jim Brown]

On 9/21/2022 7:29 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any 
other short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or 
the shield of the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.


In FACT, not opinion, if you model ANY end-fed antenna, including those 
matching elements, feedline and whatever it is connected to as part of 
the model as wires, then set the modeling software to display the 
currents on the wires, you will find that all of those wires are 
carrying RF current that varies along the antenna with the open far end 
near zero, with peaks and nulls corresponding to wavelength.


Antennas work by RF current producing an EM field, and it is the parts 
of the antenna carrying the greatest current that does the most 
radiating. If we're in the shack, all of the wiring that connects to the 
shield of the coax, including house wiring, bonding connections, etc., 
carries that current, if we haven't provided an intentional 
counterpoise, like a radial system.


The earth is a big resistor, and makes a lousy return for antenna 
current -- it's like adding a resistor in series with the antenna. So if 
we're in the field and want the antenna to work well, we throw a length 
on the ground to act as a counterpoise, or use a long piece of coax to 
be the counterpoise. An every better trick is to elevate the 
counterpoise by throwing it over some brush or even into a tree, which 
reduces ground losses. Wayne's suggestion for pedestrian or bicycle 
mobile is to trail that counterpoise.


Another point. NEC does not correctly model current distribution in an 
antenna around and inductor, and inductors don't radiate -- they're only 
matching elements, but the do change current distribution. There was 
excellent work in QEX 8-10 years ago showing that the base of an antenna 
that resonates to a quarter-wave was the worst place to put a loading 
coil, because that's where current is the greatest, and it's radiating 
capability is wasted. It was a two-part piece, the first part a thorough 
description of the measurement system (which included field strength), 
the second part field strength measurements for a half dozen conditions 
of where the loading was placed.


This principle is why smart builders of verticals for 160 and 80M use 
top loading in the form of horizontal wire(s) at the top to form a Tee 
or inverted-L, with the horizontal wire at the top adding capacitance.


So yes, it CAN be a fact that the coax feedline to the AX1 could be 
doing more of the radiating than the whip, depending on length. :)


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[David Gilbert]

I never said that there was anything wrong with using a counterpoise.  
On the contrary, it makes a ton of sense to use one if at all possible 
... it's most likely the best radiator in any similar system.


I'm not "claiming" that a resistor with a counterpoise is as effective 
as a short loaded whip with a counterpoise ... but my suspicion is that 
it's close and I think it would be interesting to see the difference.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/21/2022 10:12 PM, Dan Presley wrote:

I believe what Wayne meant to say was’now replace the AX1 with a resistor’ not 
a wire. Nonetheless the AX1 and 2 still serve a definite purpose in portable 
operating that a resistor or light bulb won’t 🤪. And I fail to see what the 
problem is with using a counterpoise,even if it’s doing some of the radiating. 
Most antenna systems that are unbalanced (verticals,end feds,etc) require a 
counterpoise. Are you claiming that a resistor with a counterpoise is as 
effective as shortened vertical?? I believe Rudy Severn’s work has already 
demonstrated the effectiveness of short verticals with various counterpoises.
Yesterday I did a SOTA activation where I worked Japan,France and Spain with 5W 
and the AX1. Obviously the altitude advantage is great and I used 3 13’ 
radials. I also try to position myself near a sloping edge to maximize my 
radiation effectiveness (as Tom Schiller N6BT advocates). I doubt a 50 ohm 
resistor would achieve this… and just in case someone says ‘it’s only because 
the other stations have big antennas etc ‘ some of the contacts were what we 
call ‘S2S’ or summit to summit with other activators using similar equipment 
and power. Perhaps hiking to a bare summit and figuring out what gear you’d 
haul on your back will give you a certain perspective and appreciation.


Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley@me. com
n7...@arrl.net



On Sep 21, 2022, at 20:32, David Gilbert  wrote:

Why would I replace the wire with a resistor?  I was talking about replacing 
the AX1 with a resistor and keeping the wire.

I have no doubt that an AX1 without a wire hears better than a resistor without 
a wire, but that's mostly because the resistor provides a better match and 
can't rely on body capacitance or the coax shield.

If the AX1 was less expensive I'd buy one and do the tests.  I may be totally 
wrong, but I still say that ANY tuned short whip with a counterpoise is doing 
most of the radiating from the counterpoise.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/21/2022 7:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Dave,

I've done many variations on whip antenna tests.

A resonant 4' whip with or without a counterpoise is on a different planet from 
a resistor. If an AX1 were listening in on this conversation, it would 
challenge you to a duel, with live ammo :)

In fact the counterpoise is absolutely required for transmit, but you can get 
away without it on receive, where body capacitance to ground alone will 
suffice, even on the HF bands.

Try this test: Go outdoors and connect an AX1 (or equivalent) to the antenna 
jack of any 20 meter receiver. With r without the counterpoise You'll get of 
noise, lots of signals.

Now replace the wire with a resistor.

Nothing.

QED

Wayne
N6KR






On Sep 21, 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
Well, the reason I mentioned the 50 ohm resistor is that a year or so ago 
somebody on this reflector mentioned that he did a direct comparison between an 
AX1 with the recommended 13 foot wire counterpoise and with no counterpoise at 
all.  I don't remember for certain but I think he said he used the RBN.   I do 
remember that he said the difference in signal strength was about 30 db.  For 
grins I used EZNEC to model a single 50 hm resistor 15 feet off the ground with 
and without a 13 foot wire hanging from one end of it.  I got 30 db difference 
in calculated signal strength.
I am by no means claiming that is a definitive or even relevant test ... I just 
think it would be interesting to actually do an empirical comparison.
It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any other 
short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or the shield of 
the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.  If so, it's possible that a 
resistor would accomplish the same thing.  ;)
As I said, I'd be willing to do the comparison if anyone is willing to lend me 
an AX1.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
73,
Dave   AB7E
On 9/21/2022 6:46 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that you
can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.
The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. I
am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance up
to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl dipole or 1/4wl vertical
will be a 

Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

> On Sep 21, 2022, at 10:12 PM, Dan Presley  wrote:
> 
> I believe what Wayne meant to say was’now replace the AX1 with a resistor’ 
> not a wire.

Yes, that's what I meant. An edit went awry -- thanks for catching it.

Wayne


> Nonetheless the AX1 and 2 still serve a definite purpose in portable 
> operating that a resistor or light bulb won’t 🤪. And I fail to see what the 
> problem is with using a counterpoise,even if it’s doing some of the 
> radiating. Most antenna systems that are unbalanced (verticals,end feds,etc) 
> require a counterpoise. Are you claiming that a resistor with a counterpoise 
> is as effective as shortened vertical?? I believe Rudy Severn’s work has 
> already demonstrated the effectiveness of short verticals with various 
> counterpoises. 
> Yesterday I did a SOTA activation where I worked Japan,France and Spain with 
> 5W and the AX1. Obviously the altitude advantage is great and I used 3 13’ 
> radials. I also try to position myself near a sloping edge to maximize my 
> radiation effectiveness (as Tom Schiller N6BT advocates). I doubt a 50 ohm 
> resistor would achieve this… and just in case someone says ‘it’s only because 
> the other stations have big antennas etc ‘ some of the contacts were what we 
> call ‘S2S’ or summit to summit with other activators using similar equipment 
> and power. Perhaps hiking to a bare summit and figuring out what gear you’d 
> haul on your back will give you a certain perspective and appreciation. 
> 
> 
> Dan Presley 503-701-3871
> danpresley@me. com 
> n7...@arrl.net
> 
> 
>> On Sep 21, 2022, at 20:32, David Gilbert  wrote:
>> 
>> Why would I replace the wire with a resistor?  I was talking about replacing 
>> the AX1 with a resistor and keeping the wire.
>> 
>> I have no doubt that an AX1 without a wire hears better than a resistor 
>> without a wire, but that's mostly because the resistor provides a better 
>> match and can't rely on body capacitance or the coax shield.
>> 
>> If the AX1 was less expensive I'd buy one and do the tests.  I may be 
>> totally wrong, but I still say that ANY tuned short whip with a counterpoise 
>> is doing most of the radiating from the counterpoise.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Dave   AB7E
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 9/21/2022 7:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> Dave,
>>> 
>>> I've done many variations on whip antenna tests.
>>> 
>>> A resonant 4' whip with or without a counterpoise is on a different planet 
>>> from a resistor. If an AX1 were listening in on this conversation, it would 
>>> challenge you to a duel, with live ammo :)
>>> 
>>> In fact the counterpoise is absolutely required for transmit, but you can 
>>> get away without it on receive, where body capacitance to ground alone will 
>>> suffice, even on the HF bands.
>>> 
>>> Try this test: Go outdoors and connect an AX1 (or equivalent) to the 
>>> antenna jack of any 20 meter receiver. With r without the counterpoise 
>>> You'll get of noise, lots of signals.
>>> 
>>> Now replace the wire with a resistor.
>>> 
>>> Nothing.
>>> 
>>> QED
>>> 
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 21, 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
 Well, the reason I mentioned the 50 ohm resistor is that a year or so ago 
 somebody on this reflector mentioned that he did a direct comparison 
 between an AX1 with the recommended 13 foot wire counterpoise and with no 
 counterpoise at all.  I don't remember for certain but I think he said he 
 used the RBN.   I do remember that he said the difference in signal 
 strength was about 30 db.  For grins I used EZNEC to model a single 50 hm 
 resistor 15 feet off the ground with and without a 13 foot wire hanging 
 from one end of it.  I got 30 db difference in calculated signal strength.
 I am by no means claiming that is a definitive or even relevant test ... I 
 just think it would be interesting to actually do an empirical comparison.
 It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any 
 other short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or the 
 shield of the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.  If so, it's 
 possible that a resistor would accomplish the same thing.  ;)
 As I said, I'd be willing to do the comparison if anyone is willing to 
 lend me an AX1.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
 73,
 Dave   AB7E
 On 9/21/2022 6:46 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
> the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that 
> you
> can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.
> The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. 
> I
> am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance 
> up
> to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
> mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl 

Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Dan Presley]

I believe what Wayne meant to say was’now replace the AX1 with a resistor’ not 
a wire. Nonetheless the AX1 and 2 still serve a definite purpose in portable 
operating that a resistor or light bulb won’t 🤪. And I fail to see what the 
problem is with using a counterpoise,even if it’s doing some of the radiating. 
Most antenna systems that are unbalanced (verticals,end feds,etc) require a 
counterpoise. Are you claiming that a resistor with a counterpoise is as 
effective as shortened vertical?? I believe Rudy Severn’s work has already 
demonstrated the effectiveness of short verticals with various counterpoises. 
Yesterday I did a SOTA activation where I worked Japan,France and Spain with 5W 
and the AX1. Obviously the altitude advantage is great and I used 3 13’ 
radials. I also try to position myself near a sloping edge to maximize my 
radiation effectiveness (as Tom Schiller N6BT advocates). I doubt a 50 ohm 
resistor would achieve this… and just in case someone says ‘it’s only because 
the other stations have big antennas etc ‘ some of the contacts were what we 
call ‘S2S’ or summit to summit with other activators using similar equipment 
and power. Perhaps hiking to a bare summit and figuring out what gear you’d 
haul on your back will give you a certain perspective and appreciation. 


Dan Presley 503-701-3871
danpresley@me. com 
n7...@arrl.net


> On Sep 21, 2022, at 20:32, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> Why would I replace the wire with a resistor?  I was talking about replacing 
> the AX1 with a resistor and keeping the wire.
> 
> I have no doubt that an AX1 without a wire hears better than a resistor 
> without a wire, but that's mostly because the resistor provides a better 
> match and can't rely on body capacitance or the coax shield.
> 
> If the AX1 was less expensive I'd buy one and do the tests.  I may be totally 
> wrong, but I still say that ANY tuned short whip with a counterpoise is doing 
> most of the radiating from the counterpoise.
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/21/2022 7:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Dave,
>> 
>> I've done many variations on whip antenna tests.
>> 
>> A resonant 4' whip with or without a counterpoise is on a different planet 
>> from a resistor. If an AX1 were listening in on this conversation, it would 
>> challenge you to a duel, with live ammo :)
>> 
>> In fact the counterpoise is absolutely required for transmit, but you can 
>> get away without it on receive, where body capacitance to ground alone will 
>> suffice, even on the HF bands.
>> 
>> Try this test: Go outdoors and connect an AX1 (or equivalent) to the antenna 
>> jack of any 20 meter receiver. With r without the counterpoise You'll get of 
>> noise, lots of signals.
>> 
>> Now replace the wire with a resistor.
>> 
>> Nothing.
>> 
>> QED
>> 
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 21, 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
>>> Well, the reason I mentioned the 50 ohm resistor is that a year or so ago 
>>> somebody on this reflector mentioned that he did a direct comparison 
>>> between an AX1 with the recommended 13 foot wire counterpoise and with no 
>>> counterpoise at all.  I don't remember for certain but I think he said he 
>>> used the RBN.   I do remember that he said the difference in signal 
>>> strength was about 30 db.  For grins I used EZNEC to model a single 50 hm 
>>> resistor 15 feet off the ground with and without a 13 foot wire hanging 
>>> from one end of it.  I got 30 db difference in calculated signal strength.
>>> I am by no means claiming that is a definitive or even relevant test ... I 
>>> just think it would be interesting to actually do an empirical comparison.
>>> It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any 
>>> other short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or the 
>>> shield of the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.  If so, it's 
>>> possible that a resistor would accomplish the same thing.  ;)
>>> As I said, I'd be willing to do the comparison if anyone is willing to lend 
>>> me an AX1.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
>>> 73,
>>> Dave   AB7E
>>> On 9/21/2022 6:46 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
 Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
 the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that 
 you
 can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.
 The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. I
 am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance up
 to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
 mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl dipole or 1/4wl 
 vertical
 will be a much better radiator.
 John KK9A
 David Gilbert ab7e wrote:
 A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50
 ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful
 as a 

Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[David Gilbert]

Why would I replace the wire with a resistor?  I was talking about 
replacing the AX1 with a resistor and keeping the wire.


I have no doubt that an AX1 without a wire hears better than a resistor 
without a wire, but that's mostly because the resistor provides a better 
match and can't rely on body capacitance or the coax shield.


If the AX1 was less expensive I'd buy one and do the tests.  I may be 
totally wrong, but I still say that ANY tuned short whip with a 
counterpoise is doing most of the radiating from the counterpoise.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/21/2022 7:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Dave,

I've done many variations on whip antenna tests.

A resonant 4' whip with or without a counterpoise is on a different planet from 
a resistor. If an AX1 were listening in on this conversation, it would 
challenge you to a duel, with live ammo :)

In fact the counterpoise is absolutely required for transmit, but you can get 
away without it on receive, where body capacitance to ground alone will 
suffice, even on the HF bands.

Try this test: Go outdoors and connect an AX1 (or equivalent) to the antenna 
jack of any 20 meter receiver. With r without the counterpoise You'll get of 
noise, lots of signals.

Now replace the wire with a resistor.

Nothing.

QED

Wayne
N6KR






On Sep 21, 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:



Well, the reason I mentioned the 50 ohm resistor is that a year or so ago 
somebody on this reflector mentioned that he did a direct comparison between an 
AX1 with the recommended 13 foot wire counterpoise and with no counterpoise at 
all.  I don't remember for certain but I think he said he used the RBN.   I do 
remember that he said the difference in signal strength was about 30 db.  For 
grins I used EZNEC to model a single 50 hm resistor 15 feet off the ground with 
and without a 13 foot wire hanging from one end of it.  I got 30 db difference 
in calculated signal strength.

I am by no means claiming that is a definitive or even relevant test ... I just 
think it would be interesting to actually do an empirical comparison.

It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any other 
short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or the shield of 
the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.  If so, it's possible that a 
resistor would accomplish the same thing.  ;)

As I said, I'd be willing to do the comparison if anyone is willing to lend me 
an AX1.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/21/2022 6:46 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that you
can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.

The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. I
am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance up
to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl dipole or 1/4wl vertical
will be a much better radiator.

John KK9A




David Gilbert ab7e wrote:

A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50
ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful
as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will
do that.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:

I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map:

https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png

A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had

designed

-- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
pretty good.

I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  

I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
to be performing very well.

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

Dave,

I've done many variations on whip antenna tests. 

A resonant 4' whip with or without a counterpoise is on a different planet from 
a resistor. If an AX1 were listening in on this conversation, it would 
challenge you to a duel, with live ammo :)

In fact the counterpoise is absolutely required for transmit, but you can get 
away without it on receive, where body capacitance to ground alone will 
suffice, even on the HF bands.

Try this test: Go outdoors and connect an AX1 (or equivalent) to the antenna 
jack of any 20 meter receiver. With r without the counterpoise You'll get of 
noise, lots of signals.

Now replace the wire with a resistor.

Nothing.

QED

Wayne
N6KR





> On Sep 21, 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the reason I mentioned the 50 ohm resistor is that a year or so ago 
> somebody on this reflector mentioned that he did a direct comparison between 
> an AX1 with the recommended 13 foot wire counterpoise and with no 
> counterpoise at all.  I don't remember for certain but I think he said he 
> used the RBN.   I do remember that he said the difference in signal strength 
> was about 30 db.  For grins I used EZNEC to model a single 50 hm resistor 15 
> feet off the ground with and without a 13 foot wire hanging from one end of 
> it.  I got 30 db difference in calculated signal strength.
> 
> I am by no means claiming that is a definitive or even relevant test ... I 
> just think it would be interesting to actually do an empirical comparison.
> 
> It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any other 
> short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or the shield 
> of the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.  If so, it's possible that 
> a resistor would accomplish the same thing.  ;)
> 
> As I said, I'd be willing to do the comparison if anyone is willing to lend 
> me an AX1.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/21/2022 6:46 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
>> Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
>> the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that you
>> can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.
>> 
>> The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. I
>> am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance up
>> to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
>> mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl dipole or 1/4wl vertical
>> will be a much better radiator.
>> 
>> John KK9A
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David Gilbert ab7e wrote:
>> 
>> A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50
>> ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful
>> as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will
>> do that.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Dave   AB7E
>> 
>> 
>> On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
>>> I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
>>> meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
>>> and the propagation map:
>> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png
>>> A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had
>> designed
>>> -- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
>>> window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
>>> lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
>>> pretty good.
>>> 
>>> I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
>>> reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
>>> a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
>>> Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
>>> propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  
>>> 
>>> I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
>>> to be performing very well.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Ron Gruner
>>> K4RHG
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[David Gilbert]

Well, the reason I mentioned the 50 ohm resistor is that a year or so 
ago somebody on this reflector mentioned that he did a direct comparison 
between an AX1 with the recommended 13 foot wire counterpoise and with 
no counterpoise at all.  I don't remember for certain but I think he 
said he used the RBN.   I do remember that he said the difference in 
signal strength was about 30 db.  For grins I used EZNEC to model a 
single 50 hm resistor 15 feet off the ground with and without a 13 foot 
wire hanging from one end of it.  I got 30 db difference in calculated 
signal strength.


I am by no means claiming that is a definitive or even relevant test ... 
I just think it would be interesting to actually do an empirical comparison.


It is my opinion, however, that most of the radiating on an AX1 (or any 
other short loaded whip) is being done by the counterpoise wire and/or 
the shield of the coax.  The coil and whip are matching aids.  If so, 
it's possible that a resistor would accomplish the same thing.  ;)


As I said, I'd be willing to do the comparison if anyone is willing to 
lend me an AX1.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/21/2022 6:46 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that you
can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.

The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. I
am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance up
to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl dipole or 1/4wl vertical
will be a much better radiator.

John KK9A




David Gilbert ab7e wrote:

A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50
ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful
as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will
do that.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:

I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map:

https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png

A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had

designed

-- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
pretty good.

I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  

I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
to be performing very well.

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[john]

Thomas Schiller, N6BT once wrote an article titled "Everything Works". In
the article he discussed how he worked all continents on CW (a mode that you
can actually hear) using a light bulb antenna during the ARRL DX contest.

The AX1 appears to be a 45" whip with a base inductor made of 20AWG wire. I
am not sure what is inside the base, if anything, to bring the impedance up
to 50 ohms. With some sunspots, I am sure that it is fun for pedestrian
mobile use which is what it's designed for. A 1/2wl dipole or 1/4wl vertical
will be a much better radiator. 

John KK9A




David Gilbert ab7e wrote:

A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50 
ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful 
as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will 
do that.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
> I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
> meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
> and the propagation map:
https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png
>
> A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had
designed
> -- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
> window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
> lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
> pretty good.
>
> I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
> reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
> a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
> Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
> propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  
>
> I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
> to be performing very well.
>
> 73,
> Ron Gruner
> K4RHG

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

The AX-line, including the AX1, AX2, and various accessories, is intended to 
make casual/ad-hoc operation so easy that everyone does it a lot more. It 
worked on me :)

As noted in the instruction manuals, a longer and/or higher antenna is great if 
you have the time and materials available to put one up. (And you're not in 
continuous motion.)

73,
Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Gerry leary via Elecraft]

Don’t forget, anything that you use as a vertical you can also use in a 
horizontal configuration.

Gerry Leary Wb6ivf

On Sep 19, 2022, at 3:16 PM, Marshall Harrison  wrote:

I Know it is a compromised design but it may be all I will have soon. We
are moving 400+ miles north from FL into the mountains of NC this weekend.
I'll be living in an upstairs condo so putting the AX-1 in a window may be
the best I can do. I don't think the ceiling is high enough for my Wolf
River Coils but I may be able to get a hamstick to work.

I will definitely give the AX-1 a proper trial on my IC-705.

*Marshall Harrison, *
*W4MKH*






On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 3:08 PM Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> Then we shrank it by 70% (AX2 :)
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
>> On Sep 19, 2022, at 11:32 AM, Jim Brown 
> wrote:
>> 
>> Wayne is quite proud of that antenna design for its intended purpose,
> walking/biking portable. We chatted about it at Visalia when his design was
> still on paper.
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> 
>> On 9/19/2022 10:53 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>> A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a
> 50 ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful
> as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will do
> that.
>>> 73,
>>> Dave   AB7E
>>> On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
 I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs
> on 20
 meters. Here's a photo of the rig:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
 and the propagation map:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png
 
 A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had
> designed
 -- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
 window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise
> over a
 lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
 pretty good.
 
 I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours
> had
 reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km)
> with
 a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
 Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
 propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  
 
 I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1
> seems
 to be performing very well.
 
 73,
 Ron Gruner
 K4RHG
 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Marshall Harrison]

I Know it is a compromised design but it may be all I will have soon. We
are moving 400+ miles north from FL into the mountains of NC this weekend.
I'll be living in an upstairs condo so putting the AX-1 in a window may be
the best I can do. I don't think the ceiling is high enough for my Wolf
River Coils but I may be able to get a hamstick to work.

I will definitely give the AX-1 a proper trial on my IC-705.

*Marshall Harrison, *
*W4MKH*






On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 3:08 PM Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> Then we shrank it by 70% (AX2 :)
>
> Wayne
>
>
> > On Sep 19, 2022, at 11:32 AM, Jim Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> > Wayne is quite proud of that antenna design for its intended purpose,
> walking/biking portable. We chatted about it at Visalia when his design was
> still on paper.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> > On 9/19/2022 10:53 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
> >> A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a
> 50 ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful
> as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will do
> that.
> >> 73,
> >> Dave   AB7E
> >> On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
> >>> I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs
> on 20
> >>> meters. Here's a photo of the rig:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
> >>> and the propagation map:
> https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png
> >>>
> >>> A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had
> designed
> >>> -- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
> >>> window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise
> over a
> >>> lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
> >>> pretty good.
> >>>
> >>> I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours
> had
> >>> reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km)
> with
> >>> a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
> >>> Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
> >>> propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  
> >>>
> >>> I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1
> seems
> >>> to be performing very well.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Ron Gruner
> >>> K4RHG
> >>>
> >
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Wayne Burdick]

Then we shrank it by 70% (AX2 :)

Wayne


> On Sep 19, 2022, at 11:32 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Wayne is quite proud of that antenna design for its intended purpose, 
> walking/biking portable. We chatted about it at Visalia when his design was 
> still on paper.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> On 9/19/2022 10:53 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
>> A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50 ohm 
>> resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful as a 
>> baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will do that.
>> 73,
>> Dave   AB7E
>> On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
>>> I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
>>> meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
>>> and the propagation map: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png
>>> 
>>> A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had designed
>>> -- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
>>> window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
>>> lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
>>> pretty good.
>>> 
>>> I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
>>> reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
>>> a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
>>> Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
>>> propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  
>>> 
>>> I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
>>> to be performing very well.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Ron Gruner
>>> K4RHG
>>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Dennis Moore]

I set mine up on a camera tripod on my patio and worked Japan on 17m FT8 
with 2 watts on my KX3. It certainly does work.


73, Dennis NJ6G

On 9/19/2022 10:33, Ron Gruner wrote:

I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Hank via Elecraft]

Ron...

I have been happy with my AX-1.  I have shared with the group before my 
impressive contacts made with my KX3 and the whip.  The second time out, I was 
doing a SOTA activation of a hill really :-) - only 1200' elevation.  With the 
KX3 in my lap, AX1 whip connected via 90 degree fitting to the radio, and the 
counter poise thrown over the edge of the rocky slope headed down on the north 
side of the "mountain",  my first SSB contact was with France (no ATU needed 
that day - counterpoise placement gave me 1.3:1 SWR).  That was running maybe 
10ish watts from a not fully charged external pack.  I've also contacted 
Belgium while spread out on the hood of my Jeep for a SSB POTA contact with all 
15 watts on 40 meters using the 40 meter coil add-on and the counterpoise was 
the Jeep frame/body.

Hank
K4HYJ


- Original Message -
From: Ron Gruner (r...@gruner.com)
Date: 09/19/22 13:34
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png

A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had designed
-- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
pretty good.

I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  <http://wspr.rocks/>

I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
to be performing very well.

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Jim Brown]

Wayne is quite proud of that antenna design for its intended purpose, 
walking/biking portable. We chatted about it at Visalia when his design 
was still on paper.


73, Jim K9YC

On 9/19/2022 10:53 AM, David Gilbert wrote:



A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50 
ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful 
as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will 
do that.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:
I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs 
on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: 
https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map: 
https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png


A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had 
designed

-- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
pretty good.

I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) 
with

a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  

I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
to be performing very well.

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG



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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[David Gilbert]

A comparison to any other antenna would be useful.  A comparison to a 50 
ohm resistor with a similar counterpoise wire would be even more useful 
as a baseline measurement.  If anyone wants to lend me their AX1 I will 
do that.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 9/19/2022 10:33 AM, Ron Gruner wrote:

I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png

A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had designed
-- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
pretty good.

I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  

I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
to be performing very well.

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG


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[Elecraft] Elecraft AX-1 Whip Antenna

[Ron Gruner]

I've been impressed by how well my little AX-1 whip antenna performs on 20
meters. Here's a photo of the rig: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/andover_ma.png
and the propagation map: https://gruner.com/k4rhg/wspr_2watts_sep16_2022.png

A friend, Derek Rowell (AK1WI), gave me a two-watt WSPR kit he had designed
-- easy and fun to build. I connected the unit to the AX-1 sitting in a
window sill facing west and strung the out-of-the-box counterpoise over a
lamp shade and bed headboard. No idea what the SWR is, but it must be
pretty good.

I immediately began receiving propagation reports and within 24 hours had
reports from 240 unique stations. The farthest was VK5ARG (17,276 km) with
a SNR of -21. Even though the window faced the west, propagation into
Europe was strong with SV9KI (7,800 km) reporting -26 SNR. The
propagation report is from http://wspr.rocks/  

I've found that WSPR is a great way to evaluate antennas. The AX-1 seems
to be performing very well.

73,
Ron Gruner
K4RHG


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