Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-10 Thread David Woolley (E.L)

Simon (HB9DRV) wrote:


For audio there's SKYPE and IP-Sound. Take a look at 
http://forums.ham-radio.ch/forumdisplay.php?f=46 for a lot of remote 
radio discussions.


SKYPE uses a proprietary voice only codec.  Being proprietary means that 
its exact limitations will be unknown, but it is unlikely to perform 
well for data modes when operating close to the noise floor and it may 
well not work well for very noisy speech.


--
David Woolley
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-10 Thread Simon (HB9DRV)
For noisy speech it's not at all bad. For data modes - write your own seems 
to be the best option, this is what I plan to do for DM780 sometime. Sending 
data around at 8kHz with (estimated) 25% overhead is not a big problem, it's 
a trivial programming task, just takes some time to design and the implement 
it properly.


Simon Brown, HB9DRV
www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

- Original Message - 
From: David Woolley (E.L) [EMAIL PROTECTED]


SKYPE uses a proprietary voice only codec.  Being proprietary means that 
its exact limitations will be unknown, but it is unlikely to perform well 
for data modes when operating close to the noise floor and it may well not 
work well for very noisy speech.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-09 Thread DH2SE

Hi Julian et al.,

I might have found a cheap and easy solution providing a full remote access
to the K3 via a local network and/or via the internet. I tested a wireless
LAN router from Asus (WL500g Premium) at the last weekend. Using a new OS
(Open-WRT with X-WRT) at that router will allow you to set up a virtual
serial connection to the K3. That works already e.g. with HRD. The router
provides two USB-Ports that can be used e.g. for that issue. At the second
USB-Port you can use a simple USB-soundcard to stream the audio into the LAN
/ Internet and vice versa. That's not really tested until now but the
Open-WRT OS supports such USB-soundcards. We tested that support already.
Now the only problem to solve is how to get the audio back for in-/output
e.g. at a notebook-computer (depending on the OS that works at the
notebook-computer). We're working on it... Hope to provide exact information
within this week (now I got one week off from QRL) :-)

73 de Sascha, DH2SE  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-09 Thread Simon (HB9DRV)

Hi Sascha,

For audio there's SKYPE and IP-Sound. Take a look at 
http://forums.ham-radio.ch/forumdisplay.php?f=46 for a lot of remote radio 
discussions.


I'm currently working on a remote EME system with a nice 10m dish (not 
mine), the whole station will be controlled using HRD and my new satellite 
software. http://www.radiosky.ch/home.php I may even write a remote audio 
solution for radio use - not sure yet.


We will be able to power up / down all components remotely, can hear own 
signals about 12dB above the noise on 23cms using EME and that's when we 
don't even shout! 41dB gain on 23 cms, 30dB (I think) on 70 cms. We have a 
complex rotator system and with so much 'stuff' at the remote shack a PC is 
essential.


Not a single Elecraft product in sight (yet) but once it's all working I may 
well put my K3 there with a vertical for 20m or something...


Simon Brown, HB9DRV
www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

- Original Message - 
From: DH2SE [EMAIL PROTECTED]




I might have found a cheap and easy solution providing a full remote 
access

to the K3 via a local network and/or via the internet.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread DH2SE

Hi Simon and Julian,

thank you for your support. I'd also appreciate that if such a signal would
come out of the K3. Others (IC-7700 et al.) support that too, sometimes via
USB or ethernet. I'm not happy to digitalize the analog line out audio
signal external into a PCM stream by using e.g. a microcontroller because of
the additional signal propagation delay of the ADC conversion. For using the
K3 as a remote TRX it is nowadays not state-of-the-art to let a PC run all
days long. A modified wireless lan router is less expensive, regarding its
power comsumption. I already thought about using a wireless lan router w/
integrated VoIP port (where you an plug in an analog telephone) to plug the
line out and the line in port of the K3 to this device by using an
telephone-interface to solve that problem. That could provide a audio
connection e.g. via skype to the K3 from all places, if you want even by
using a standard telephone line to call the K3 from every fixed line or
cell phone. Hw ?

73 de Sascha, DH2SE, K3 #1115




Julian, G4ILO wrote:

 That would be *extremely* useful, though I imagine it's even less likely
 to happen than getting  a serial protocol command to read the internally
 decoded CW/PSK31/RTTY. Whilst horizontally 
 polarized a while ago I could only operate datamodes using remote desktop
 to my shack 
 computer because that was the only operation I could do without audio.

 I can't imagine why it would be illegal in the US. Doesn't one of the
 Ten-Tec rigs have an 
 Ethernet port that allows full remote control with streaming audio
 already?

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread Julian, G4ILO


DH2SE wrote:
 
 Hi Simon and Julian,
 
 thank you for your support. I'd also appreciate that if such a signal
 would come out of the K3. Others (IC-7700 et al.) support that too,
 sometimes via USB or ethernet. I'm not happy to digitalize the analog line
 out audio signal external into a PCM stream by using e.g. a
 microcontroller because of the additional signal propagation delay of the
 ADC conversion. For using the K3 as a remote TRX it is nowadays not
 state-of-the-art to let a PC run all days long. A modified wireless lan
 router is less expensive, regarding its power comsumption. I already
 thought about using a wireless lan router w/ integrated VoIP port (where
 you an plug in an analog telephone) to plug the line out and the line in
 port of the K3 to this device by using an telephone-interface to solve
 that problem. That could provide a audio connection e.g. via skype to the
 K3 from all places, if you want even by using a standard telephone line to
 call the K3 from every fixed line or cell phone. Hw ?
 
 

I have such a VOIP router, which I use to have a separate office phone. I
think your idea could work, if you could find a suitable interface to make
the K3 look like a phone. My own interest is more in being able to access
the radio wirelessly from around the house, for which that solution is not
appropriate. Timewave has released a gadget that provides full access to the
radio using Bluetooth, but inevitably it can be used only under Windows. :(

Since getting audio samples out of the K3 DSP is apparently a non-runner,
what we need is for someone clever to develop a something based on an
embedded Linux board, to present a web based interface to the K3 with
streaming audio. That would work over a LAN or across the wider Internet,
whatever you wanted. At present, though, the only solution appears to be to
get a Ten-Tec Omni VII. I think Elecraft missed a trick in not designing the
K3 so a web based interface like the Omni VII could have been an option.

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread David Cutter
Somebody said they didn't care what the stream was, it could be dealt with 
externally, so, could we tap off the relevant signal, thro an off-board 
buffer and take it to a new socket on the back?


David
G3UNA

- Original Message - 
From: Julian, G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?





DH2SE wrote:


Hi Simon and Julian,

thank you for your support. I'd also appreciate that if such a signal
would come out of the K3. Others (IC-7700 et al.) support that too,
sometimes via USB or ethernet. I'm not happy to digitalize the analog 
line

out audio signal external into a PCM stream by using e.g. a
microcontroller because of the additional signal propagation delay of the
ADC conversion. For using the K3 as a remote TRX it is nowadays not
state-of-the-art to let a PC run all days long. A modified wireless lan
router is less expensive, regarding its power comsumption. I already
thought about using a wireless lan router w/ integrated VoIP port (where
you an plug in an analog telephone) to plug the line out and the line in
port of the K3 to this device by using an telephone-interface to solve
that problem. That could provide a audio connection e.g. via skype to the
K3 from all places, if you want even by using a standard telephone line 
to

call the K3 from every fixed line or cell phone. Hw ?




I have such a VOIP router, which I use to have a separate office phone. I
think your idea could work, if you could find a suitable interface to make
the K3 look like a phone. My own interest is more in being able to access
the radio wirelessly from around the house, for which that solution is not
appropriate. Timewave has released a gadget that provides full access to 
the
radio using Bluetooth, but inevitably it can be used only under Windows. 
:(


Since getting audio samples out of the K3 DSP is apparently a non-runner,
what we need is for someone clever to develop a something based on an
embedded Linux board, to present a web based interface to the K3 with
streaming audio. That would work over a LAN or across the wider Internet,
whatever you wanted. At present, though, the only solution appears to be 
to
get a Ten-Tec Omni VII. I think Elecraft missed a trick in not designing 
the

K3 so a web based interface like the Omni VII could have been an option.

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread DH2SE

Julian,

I have the same problem using the K3 wireless around the house e.g. while
sitting in the garden. But I need also the possibility to use the K3 from
far away. Bluetooth is suitable if you use a Jabra A-210 Module for the
audio transmission directly to a headset and a second Bluetooth dongle in
combination w/ a serial to usb converter for the data to a PC / notebook
computer. I used this already but unfortunately, the range of Bluetooth
Class 2 or 3 gadgets is not very nice (less than 30 ft.). But I there is a
supplier for a Bluetooth modul which supports Class 1, I'm working on it.

I do have access to a embedded system that comes with a ARM7 µController. I
should be possible to run an embedded Linux at that device. It would have
all necessary ports (2x RS-232, USB (the protocol is already implemented),
Ethernet (the protocol is already implemented), native UART's). The size of
that board is only 800 x 300 mm (31,5 x 11,8 inch.). The price is less than
100 €. That should fit into the K3 with no problem. The only thing is: I do
not have the time to develop it using Linux or a custom made firmware :-(
Getting retiered is estimated by the year 2038.

73 de Sascha, DH2SE
 

 ...Timewave has released a gadget that provides full access to  
 the radio using Bluetooth, but inevitably it can be used only under
 Windows. :(

 ...develop a something based on an embedded Linux board, to present a 
 web based interface to the K3 with streaming audio. That would work over a
 LAN or across 
 the wider Internet, whatever you wanted...

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread Julian, G4ILO


DH2SE wrote:
 
 Julian,
 
 I have the same problem using the K3 wireless around the house e.g. while
 sitting in the garden. But I need also the possibility to use the K3 from
 far away. Bluetooth is suitable if you use a Jabra A-210 Module for the
 audio transmission directly to a headset and a second Bluetooth dongle in
 combination w/ a serial to usb converter for the data to a PC / notebook
 computer. I used this already but unfortunately, the range of Bluetooth
 Class 2 or 3 gadgets is not very nice (less than 30 ft.). But there is a
 supplier in Germany for a Bluetooth modul which supports Class 1, I'm
 working on it.
 

Thanks for the suggestion. The Jabra module might be a workable solution for
me, although 30 feet range will barely reach the end of even our small
garden. I could use remote desktop to access the rig control application, so
I wouldn't need Bluetooth serial, though I do have a couple of Bluetooth
serial devices that I bought on eBay on the off-chance they would come in
handy for something like this. Is there a Bluetooth headset that has
headphones and a boom mic, or must you use one of those small mobile phone
headsets?



 I do have access to a embedded system that comes with a ARM7 µController.
 It should be possible to run an embedded Linux at that device. It would
 have all necessary ports (2x RS-232, USB (the protocol is already
 implemented), Ethernet (the protocol is already implemented), native
 UART's). The size of that board is only 800 x 300 mm (31,5 x 11,8 inch.).
 The price is less than 100 €. That should fit into the K3 with no problem.
 The only thing is: I do not have the time to develop it using Linux or a
 custom made firmware :-( Getting retiered is estimated by the year 2038.
 

With what the current economic climate is doing to my pension savings I
don't have any current estimate for retirement. :( I don't have time to
develop such a project either at the moment. If I did, I'd go for an
external box that plugs in to the RS-232 port and line in and out jacks on
the radio side, and ethernet on the other. You'd need an on-board sound
card, of course, to digitise the audio.

Using Hamlib for rig control, the device could work with any radio, so the
market for it would be much bigger than just the K3. I'd have thought such a
product would be commercially viable, wouldn't you?

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread Julian, G4ILO



David Cutter wrote:
 
 Somebody said they didn't care what the stream was, it could be dealt with 
 externally, so, could we tap off the relevant signal, thro an off-board 
 buffer and take it to a new socket on the back?
 
 

We don't care about the sample rate or bit depth too much, but the data
needs to be obtainable by the computer in a manageable way, such as through
an extension of the existing CAT command set. Given the choice of modifying
their K3 or just plugging something into the back, I think most people would
opt for the latter, even though it would entail an unnecessary D to A and
back to D again step.


-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread Jim Brown
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 02:48:08 -0700 (PDT), DH2SE wrote:

I'm not happy to digitalize the analog line out audio
signal external into a PCM stream by using e.g. a microcontroller because of
the additional signal propagation delay of the ADC conversion. 

I don't understand your concerns. I work in pro audio, where latency (what 
audio 
people and broadcasters call propagation delay) is a VERY big deal for us. 
Latency of 10 msec can be too much in many sound systems. 

There are MANY products that will do an A/D and D/A conversion in a total of 
2.4 
msec. The MAJOR source of latency for remote control is the internet (or 
telephone system) path between the remote site and the control point, which can 
be several hundreds of msec. 

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-05 Thread Bill NY9H
isn't cheap   but good audio  a serial port ,  too bad I 
don't know how to program a remote front end for the k3,,


Hell Simon..

http://www.barix.com/index.php?linkid=421

I believe you can use it at one end and another OR a cpu at the other end

bill

At 08:17 AM 9/5/2008, Julian, G4ILO wrote:




David Cutter wrote:

 Somebody said they didn't care what the stream was, it could be dealt with
 externally, so, could we tap off the relevant signal, thro an off-board
 buffer and take it to a new socket on the back?



We don't care about the sample rate or bit depth too much, but the data
needs to be obtainable by the computer in a manageable way, such as through
an extension of the existing CAT command set. Given the choice of modifying
their K3 or just plugging something into the back, I think most people would
opt for the latter, even though it would entail an unnecessary D to A and
back to D again step.


-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3
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[Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread DH2SE

Hi,

is there any possibility to grab a digital audio out signal (e.g. a PCM
stream) out of the K3 ? 
Backgound is to get a digital audio out signal to send it via VoIP e.g. via
an ethernet or wireless LAN connection into the internet without using a PC
/ soundcard.

Any suggestions are welcome.

73 de Sascha, DH2SE

 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread Simon (HB9DRV)

Not yet, I have an idea it's not legal in the US.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

- Original Message - 
From: DH2SE [EMAIL PROTECTED]


is there any possibility to grab a digital audio out signal (e.g. a PCM
stream) out of the K3 ?
Backgound is to get a digital audio out signal to send it via VoIP e.g. 
via
an ethernet or wireless LAN connection into the internet without using a 
PC

/ soundcard.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread Lyle Johnson

is there any possibility to grab a digital audio out signal (e.g. a PCM
stream) out of the K3 ? 


Sorry, no.  There is no path from the existing connectors to the DSP for 
such a stream, and we'd also have to deal with the correct framing for 
AES/EBU, etc.  And then we'd have to deal with supporting 44.1 kHz 
bitstreams as well as 48kHz bitstreams, the meaning of all the user bits 
in the frames, etc.


Not as simple as it might first appear :-/

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread Julian, G4ILO



Simon (HB9DRV) wrote:
 
 Not yet, I have an idea it's not legal in the US.
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: DH2SE [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 is there any possibility to grab a digital audio out signal (e.g. a PCM
 stream) out of the K3 ?
 Backgound is to get a digital audio out signal to send it via VoIP e.g. 
 via
 an ethernet or wireless LAN connection into the internet without using a 
 PC
 / soundcard.
 
 

That would be *extremely* useful, though I imagine it's even less likely to
happen than getting a serial protocol command to read the internally decoded
CW/PSK31/RTTY. Whilst horizontally polarized a while ago I could only
operate datamodes using remote desktop to my shack computer because that was
the only operation I could do without audio.

I can't imagine why it would be illegal in the US. Doesn't one of the
Ten-Tec rigs have an Ethernet port that allows full remote control with
streaming audio already?

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread Simon (HB9DRV)

48kHz would be enough, Windows takes care of the rest :-)

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

- Original Message - 
From: Lyle Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]


And then we'd have to deal with supporting 44.1 kHz 
bitstreams as well as 48kHz bitstreams, the meaning of all the user bits 
in the frames, etc.



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RE: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread Arie Kleingeld PA3A
I bought the K3 for its raw hamradio-transceiver performance.


73,
Arie


==



Hi,

is there any possibility to grab a digital audio out signal (e.g. a PCM
stream) out of the K3 ? 
Backgound is to get a digital audio out signal to send it via VoIP e.g.
via an ethernet or wireless LAN connection into the internet without
using a PC / soundcard.

Any suggestions are welcome.

73 de Sascha, DH2SE

 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital audio out ?

2008-09-04 Thread Julian, G4ILO


Simon (HB9DRV) wrote:
 
 48kHz would be enough, Windows takes care of the rest :-)
 
A raw bitstream of whatever sample rate the K3 uses would be fine, and
processing it would not be limited to Windows. However if there is no way
for the firmware to access the data I guess that's the end of it. :(

-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
Directoryhttp://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3 
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