Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[John Dolan]

Also, Check to see that you are not on COARSE tuning.  In SSB mode, you can
easily be off frequency when the COARSE setting is chosen.  I have
experienced this recently and when I turned off coarse, I was able to tune
the rig onto frequency.   It seems that COARSE  had me in the "ball park"
but not quite on the correct frequency. The more I am using my k3S, the
more I am finding out about these things.

73, John WB4YAL

*Many of life's problems can be solved by simply deciding what we can do
without. -JohnDolan  *

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> For all those having some similar occurrance - first make sure RIT and XIT
> are turned off.  The yellow LED in the lower left corner of the K3 should
> be off for both transmit and receive.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:
>
>> I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and alignment,
>> and a K3S that was factory made and aligned.  Regardless which  one I'm
>> using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency is
>> listed as
>> being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Mike va3mw]

Watch this

https://youtu.be/_SWRlTUG5RM

You will be able to quickly tell. 

Va3mw

> On Apr 9, 2017, at 6:11 PM, Ian White  wrote:
> 
> K3KO wrote:
> 
>> With the standard synthesizers, as one tunes up the band the true
>> frequency deviates from the displayed by up to +/-4 Hz.  There are
> times
>> when one tunes up and the RX actually goes to a lower frequency.  Same
>> problem when tuning downwards. In other words, there is electronic
>> "backlash".  One has no way of knowing which point of this sawtooth
>> error curve you are when choosing to calibrate to WWV.  This is
>> essentially fixed with the new synthesizers.
> 
> Back in the day, Elecraft informed us about that cyclical error problem
> with the old synthesizer. It would now be good to have a definitive
> statement about the frequency setting accuracy in the new synthesizer. 
> 
> The same applies to the TCXO error correction by the KREF3 module. Since
> corrections are applied by rewriting the declared value of the 48MHz
> reference frequency, presumably this can still only be changed in 1Hz
> increments.
> 
> A related question (raised by Don's post, just in) is the magnitude of
> any difference between the displayed sidetone pitch and the actual value
> within the synthesizer? 
> 
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
>> brian
>> Sent: 09 April 2017 18:33
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> 'Elecraft Reflector'
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency
>> 
>> All true.  Note that the standard oscillator takes two hours to stop
>> drifting instead of four.  Also the TCXO isn't.  There is no
> temperature
>> feedback implemented.  One is essentially seeing the stability of the
>> native oscillator.  Too bad feedback isn't implemented, I'd bet a lot
> of
>> drift noted would disappear.
>> 
>> Not discussed is the "last digit" syndrome.  Only believe the last
> digit
>> displayed if you can check that it is accurate.
>> 
>> 
>> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>> 
>> 
>>> On 4/9/2017 16:16 PM, Mike Harris wrote:
>>> Immediate apologies, this is a tad long but hopefully interesting.
>>> 
>>> My K3 has the new synths (2), K144XV with REF Lock option and all is
>>> well without doing the KREF3 modification. I guess this is an it
> either
>>> works or it don't situation.
>>> 
>>> With respect to the post about off frequency, not a simple answer.
>>> 
>>> Firstly accuracy and resolution or precision are not to be confused,
> one
>>> doesn't imply the other. The K3 display may read to 1Hz but that
> doesn't
>>> mean it is accurate to 1Hz. If folks in a net all set their various
>>> digital displays to the same frequency it doesn't mean they are all
> on
>>> the same frequency.
>>> 
>>> As has been mentioned there is a perfectly good method of adjusting
>>> calibration detailed in the handbook using WWV. It doesn't directly
> tune
>>> or otherwise adjust the reference oscillator (TCXO) but lets whatever
> is
>>> involved with controlling the synths what the reference frequency
> really
>>> is so that the error can compensated for mathematically. That is my
>>> understanding. I have been using this WWV method for the past nine
>> years
>>> and was convinced that the TXCO was probably drifting with age and
> have
>>> often said that the CONFIG: REF CAL is not a one off adjustment. This
>>> unfortunately turns out not to be the whole story.
>>> 
>>> Now it has to be said, the TXCO does drift, shock, horror. The high
>>> stability option is described as being +/-1ppm but actually seems to
>>> achieve 0.5ppm, at least mine does. How do I know this? I don't have
> a
>>> frequency counter, or at least I didn't and in fact you don't need
> one
>>> as will be discovered later. What I do have is the K3 external
> reference
>>> frequency lock option fitted and recently purchased a Leo Bodnar GPS
>>> disciplined reference clock which provides the necessary 10MHz drive
> for
>>> the ext ref option. With a new toy you have go to play and what I
>>> discovered follows.
>>> 
>>> With the GPS source up and running, turning on the K3 and enabling
> the
>>> external ref feature the REF CAL measured TXCO frequency will be
>>> displayed, counted by the ref lock module. This freque

Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Don Wilhelm]

Mel,

The answer depends on whether or not you define "zero beat" correctly - 
which is to tune in the signal to the same pitch as your SPOT tone.


In other words, your statement "match my K3 frequency to his" is not 
sufficiently informative.  It all depends on how you match his 
frequency.  What the dial says on his transceiver is not relevant, the 
only thing important is what you are hearing.


Would it not be better (and easier) for you to change the PITCH of your 
SPOT tone to the pitch you like to hear?
That means there is no need to use RIT most of the time - if you tune 
the incoming signal to that same tone, you will be on the same 
frequency.  The K3 then uses that pitch as the center of the filter 
passband (unless SHIFT is set somewhere other than default) and is the 
pitch used for zero beating.


The normal use of RIT is when you have called CQ and a station comes 
back to you not exactly on your transmit frequency - RIT can then be 
used to tune that station in and not create a situation where the QSO 
"walks up the band" with each transmission - your TX frequency stays put 
and the other station's TX frequency also stays put.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 7:04 PM, Mel Farrer wrote:
Good question Don,  Check out on this.  If the sending station is 
tuned in to a zero beat that is I match my K3 frequency to his, then 
turn on the RIT to get a pitch I like. Doesn't that make my Tx signal 
the same as his?




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

Good question Don,  Check out on this.  If the sending station is tuned in to a 
zero beat that is I match my K3 frequency to his, then turn on the RIT to get a 
pitch I like. Doesn't that make my Tx signal the same as his?
Mel, K6KBE


  From: Don Wilhelm 
 To: Mel Farrer ; "r...@aol.com" ; 
"elecraft@mailman.qth.net"  
 Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 3:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency
   
Mel and all,

If you are talking about CW, then using RIT is a sure way to get the 
actual received frequency different than the transmitted frequency.  In 
fact, that is one easy way to define RIT.
During RX, the K3 will show the actual frequency (at your chosen 
sidetone pitch) that you are listening to.
But if you have RIT or XIT turned on, the transmit frequency will be 
different than the receive frequency.

Hopefully your perception of "zerobeat" means that you have tuned the 
signal until the tone is equal to your sidetone pitch (SPOT) and not an 
attempt to tune to zero frequency (which is incorrect and will produce 
'strange' frequency readings).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 6:14 PM, Mel Farrer wrote:
> I dial in the frequency, zerobeat, I want and use the pitch or RIT to 
> get the "sound" I want.
>
> Mel, K6KBE
>
>
> 
> *From:* Don Wilhelm 
> *To:* r...@aol.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 9, 2017 3:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency
>
> Dick,
>
> Another thing to check (and I assume CW operation) - make sure you are
> listening at the same pitch as you have set in the sidetone pitch.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:
> > I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and 
> alignment,
> > and a K3S that was factory made and aligned. Regardless which  one I'm
> > using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency 
> is listed as
> > being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.
> > This has often made me wonder if  both of my K3's are slightly off 
> frequency.
> > Could it be that  many/most K3's are "slightly off frequency"?
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Don Wilhelm]

Mel and all,

If you are talking about CW, then using RIT is a sure way to get the 
actual received frequency different than the transmitted frequency.  In 
fact, that is one easy way to define RIT.
During RX, the K3 will show the actual frequency (at your chosen 
sidetone pitch) that you are listening to.
But if you have RIT or XIT turned on, the transmit frequency will be 
different than the receive frequency.


Hopefully your perception of "zerobeat" means that you have tuned the 
signal until the tone is equal to your sidetone pitch (SPOT) and not an 
attempt to tune to zero frequency (which is incorrect and will produce 
'strange' frequency readings).


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 6:14 PM, Mel Farrer wrote:
I dial in the frequency, zerobeat, I want and use the pitch or RIT to 
get the "sound" I want.


Mel, K6KBE



*From:* Don Wilhelm 
*To:* r...@aol.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
*Sent:* Sunday, April 9, 2017 3:06 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

Dick,

Another thing to check (and I assume CW operation) - make sure you are
listening at the same pitch as you have set in the sidetone pitch.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:
> I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and 
alignment,

> and a K3S that was factory made and aligned. Regardless which  one I'm
> using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency 
is listed as

> being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.
> This has often made me wonder if  both of my K3's are slightly off 
frequency.

> Could it be that  many/most K3's are "slightly off frequency"?
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

I dial in the frequency, zerobeat, I want and use the pitch or RIT to get the 
"sound" I want.
Mel, K6KBE


  From: Don Wilhelm 
 To: r...@aol.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 3:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency
   
Dick,

Another thing to check (and I assume CW operation) - make sure you are 
listening at the same pitch as you have set in the sidetone pitch.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:
> I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and alignment,
> and a K3S that was factory made and aligned.  Regardless which  one I'm
> using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency is listed 
> as
> being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.
> This has often made me wonder if  both of my K3's are slightly off frequency.
> Could it be that  many/most K3's are "slightly off frequency"?
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Ian White]

K3KO wrote:

>With the standard synthesizers, as one tunes up the band the true
>frequency deviates from the displayed by up to +/-4 Hz.  There are
times
>when one tunes up and the RX actually goes to a lower frequency.  Same
>problem when tuning downwards. In other words, there is electronic
>"backlash".  One has no way of knowing which point of this sawtooth
>error curve you are when choosing to calibrate to WWV.  This is
>essentially fixed with the new synthesizers.

Back in the day, Elecraft informed us about that cyclical error problem
with the old synthesizer. It would now be good to have a definitive
statement about the frequency setting accuracy in the new synthesizer. 

The same applies to the TCXO error correction by the KREF3 module. Since
corrections are applied by rewriting the declared value of the 48MHz
reference frequency, presumably this can still only be changed in 1Hz
increments.

A related question (raised by Don's post, just in) is the magnitude of
any difference between the displayed sidetone pitch and the actual value
within the synthesizer? 

73 from Ian GM3SEK


>-Original Message-
>From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
>brian
>Sent: 09 April 2017 18:33
>To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> 'Elecraft Reflector'
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency
>
>All true.  Note that the standard oscillator takes two hours to stop
>drifting instead of four.  Also the TCXO isn't.  There is no
temperature
>feedback implemented.  One is essentially seeing the stability of the
>native oscillator.  Too bad feedback isn't implemented, I'd bet a lot
of
>drift noted would disappear.
>
>Not discussed is the "last digit" syndrome.  Only believe the last
digit
>displayed if you can check that it is accurate.
>
>
>73 de Brian/K3KO
>
>
>On 4/9/2017 16:16 PM, Mike Harris wrote:
>> Immediate apologies, this is a tad long but hopefully interesting.
>>
>> My K3 has the new synths (2), K144XV with REF Lock option and all is
>> well without doing the KREF3 modification. I guess this is an it
either
>> works or it don't situation.
>>
>> With respect to the post about off frequency, not a simple answer.
>>
>> Firstly accuracy and resolution or precision are not to be confused,
one
>> doesn't imply the other. The K3 display may read to 1Hz but that
doesn't
>> mean it is accurate to 1Hz. If folks in a net all set their various
>> digital displays to the same frequency it doesn't mean they are all
on
>> the same frequency.
>>
>> As has been mentioned there is a perfectly good method of adjusting
>> calibration detailed in the handbook using WWV. It doesn't directly
tune
>> or otherwise adjust the reference oscillator (TCXO) but lets whatever
is
>> involved with controlling the synths what the reference frequency
really
>> is so that the error can compensated for mathematically. That is my
>> understanding. I have been using this WWV method for the past nine
>years
>> and was convinced that the TXCO was probably drifting with age and
have
>> often said that the CONFIG: REF CAL is not a one off adjustment. This
>> unfortunately turns out not to be the whole story.
>>
>> Now it has to be said, the TXCO does drift, shock, horror. The high
>> stability option is described as being +/-1ppm but actually seems to
>> achieve 0.5ppm, at least mine does. How do I know this? I don't have
a
>> frequency counter, or at least I didn't and in fact you don't need
one
>> as will be discovered later. What I do have is the K3 external
reference
>> frequency lock option fitted and recently purchased a Leo Bodnar GPS
>> disciplined reference clock which provides the necessary 10MHz drive
for
>> the ext ref option. With a new toy you have go to play and what I
>> discovered follows.
>>
>> With the GPS source up and running, turning on the K3 and enabling
the
>> external ref feature the REF CAL measured TXCO frequency will be
>> displayed, counted by the ref lock module. This frequency will be
seen
>> to change with warm up. My TXCO has a positive drift of approx
26Hz+/- a
>> couple in the first three minutes, for the next 30 minutes it drifts
a
>> further 6Hz. Thereafter it slowly drifts until after four hours it
tops
>> out at +57Hz or so and by this measurement method stops drifting.
>>
>> However, there is more. At the same time as noting the REF CAL
frequency
>> every minute, for the first hour, I also recorded the front panel
(FP)
>> temperature. This started at 23C and over the measurement period
>> increased to 38C. It was observed

Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Don Wilhelm]

For all those having some similar occurrance - first make sure RIT and 
XIT are turned off.  The yellow LED in the lower left corner of the K3 
should be off for both transmit and receive.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:

I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and alignment,
and a K3S that was factory made and aligned.  Regardless which  one I'm
using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency is listed as
being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Don Wilhelm]

Dick,

Another thing to check (and I assume CW operation) - make sure you are 
listening at the same pitch as you have set in the sidetone pitch.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:

I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and alignment,
and a K3S that was factory made and aligned.  Regardless which  one I'm
using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency is listed as
being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.
This has often made me wonder if  both of my K3's are slightly off frequency.
Could it be that  many/most K3's are "slightly off frequency"?

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Don Wilhelm]

Dick,

It is easy to check your K3 or K3S (or any other radio).  I suggest you 
do so before concluding that your radio is off frequency.


Tune to WWV at the highest frequency you can receive in CW mode and zero 
beat the carrier - you can use CWT if you are not good at zero-beating.
Make sure you are zero-beating the carrier and not one of the 
transmitted tones.  The tones come and go minute by minute, but the 
carrier is always present.


Stations that cannot receive WWV can use of of the other standard 
stations around the world.


If your K3 is off frequency, do the Reference Oscillator calibration and 
check again.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 5:42 PM, Dick via Elecraft wrote:

I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and alignment,
and a K3S that was factory made and aligned.  Regardless which  one I'm
using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency is listed as
being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.
This has often made me wonder if  both of my K3's are slightly off frequency.
Could it be that  many/most K3's are "slightly off frequency"?

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[Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Dick via Elecraft]

I have a K3 kit that's been back to the factory for repair and alignment,  
and a K3S that was factory made and aligned.  Regardless which  one I'm 
using, most of the time when I get "spotted" by RBN, my  frequency is listed as 
being 100hz higher than listed on the  K3's front panel digital readout.  
This has often made me wonder if  both of my K3's are slightly off frequency.  
Could it be that  many/most K3's are "slightly off frequency"?
 
73,
Dick- K9OM
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/9/2017 1:08:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net writes:

A few of  us in Fremont, CA have a weekly 10 meter net. I have a friend 
with a K3 who  always sounds off frequency. When I use my K3, I've been told 
that I am off  frequency. There are a couple of KX3 users who don't seem to 
have a problem.  When I use my Kenwood TS-590 I seem to be on frequency.
Is the K3 known, in  general, for being slightly off frequency??
Thanks, Steve  ?KG6HJU

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[brian]

All true.  Note that the standard oscillator takes two hours to stop 
drifting instead of four.  Also the TCXO isn't.  There is no temperature 
feedback implemented.  One is essentially seeing the stability of the 
native oscillator.  Too bad feedback isn't implemented, I'd bet a lot of 
drift noted would disappear.


Not discussed is the "last digit" syndrome.  Only believe the last digit 
displayed if you can check that it is accurate.


With the standard synthesizers, as one tunes up the band the true 
frequency deviates from the displayed by up to +/-4 Hz.  There are times 
when one tunes up and the RX actually goes to a lower frequency.  Same 
problem when tuning downwards. In other words, there is electronic 
"backlash".  One has no way of knowing which point of this sawtooth 
error curve you are when choosing to calibrate to WWV.  This is 
essentially fixed with the new synthesizers.


73 de Brian/K3KO


On 4/9/2017 16:16 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

Immediate apologies, this is a tad long but hopefully interesting.

My K3 has the new synths (2), K144XV with REF Lock option and all is
well without doing the KREF3 modification. I guess this is an it either
works or it don't situation.

With respect to the post about off frequency, not a simple answer.

Firstly accuracy and resolution or precision are not to be confused, one
doesn't imply the other. The K3 display may read to 1Hz but that doesn't
mean it is accurate to 1Hz. If folks in a net all set their various
digital displays to the same frequency it doesn't mean they are all on
the same frequency.

As has been mentioned there is a perfectly good method of adjusting
calibration detailed in the handbook using WWV. It doesn't directly tune
or otherwise adjust the reference oscillator (TCXO) but lets whatever is
involved with controlling the synths what the reference frequency really
is so that the error can compensated for mathematically. That is my
understanding. I have been using this WWV method for the past nine years
and was convinced that the TXCO was probably drifting with age and have
often said that the CONFIG: REF CAL is not a one off adjustment. This
unfortunately turns out not to be the whole story.

Now it has to be said, the TXCO does drift, shock, horror. The high
stability option is described as being +/-1ppm but actually seems to
achieve 0.5ppm, at least mine does. How do I know this? I don't have a
frequency counter, or at least I didn't and in fact you don't need one
as will be discovered later. What I do have is the K3 external reference
frequency lock option fitted and recently purchased a Leo Bodnar GPS
disciplined reference clock which provides the necessary 10MHz drive for
the ext ref option. With a new toy you have go to play and what I
discovered follows.

With the GPS source up and running, turning on the K3 and enabling the
external ref feature the REF CAL measured TXCO frequency will be
displayed, counted by the ref lock module. This frequency will be seen
to change with warm up. My TXCO has a positive drift of approx 26Hz+/- a
couple in the first three minutes, for the next 30 minutes it drifts a
further 6Hz. Thereafter it slowly drifts until after four hours it tops
out at +57Hz or so and by this measurement method stops drifting.

However, there is more. At the same time as noting the REF CAL frequency
every minute, for the first hour, I also recorded the front panel (FP)
temperature. This started at 23C and over the measurement period
increased to 38C. It was observed that the rise in FP temp and the drift
follow a similar trajectory. As would be expected.

I have monitored the REF CAL frequency for a couple of months now and
note that the TXCO drift on my unit always maxes out at more or less the
same reading.

I have reached the conclusion that if at least two hours of warm up are
allowed and a WWV cal operation is then performed you will be in a
pretty good place with respect to total drift and subsequent overall
frequency (dial) accuracy.

It is easy to discover the pattern and extent of the drift of the TXCO
in your K3 without any external measuring equipment, external ref locks
or such.

1. From cold tune to a WWV frequency you will be able to receive
reliably for a few hours. Higher the better.
2. Wait 5 minutes or you will be chasing a moving target.
3. Perform a REF CAL and note the reading.
4. Perform a REF CAL every half hour, less if you feel like it and note
the readings.
5. Eventually the reading will really slow down and more or less stop
changing.
6. Choose a reading that indicates that the bulk of the drift has
happened, (1-2 hours)
7. Set REF CAL to that reading and sleep well. Good enough for HF.

Given the highest and lowest frequency readings a further experiment can
be performed to discover the consequences of the TXCO drift on dial
accuracy. It only takes a few minutes.

1. Set REF CALL to the lowest recorded frequency and tune the K3 to a
stable test frequency, I used my XG3, note the "dial" reading

Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Bill Johnson]

Yes!  Tnx.

Have a great day!
Bill
K9YEQ



From: Elecraft  on behalf of teodoro martinez 
via Elecraft 
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 11:41:08 AM
To: Mike; elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

If I understand correctly, your near Fremont CA.  I had a two week turn around 
in Watsonville for Calibration. The charge was about $100. I drove it there. 
Saved the postage charges. Don't forget to call  to obtain authorization for 
the return. It's also a good time to get hardware updates. Ted wp4cw.

On Apr 9, 2017 9:16 AM, Mike Harris  wrote:
>
> Immediate apologies, this is a tad long but hopefully interesting.
>
> My K3 has the new synths (2), K144XV with REF Lock option and all is
> well without doing the KREF3 modification. I guess this is an it either
> works or it don't situation.
>
> With respect to the post about off frequency, not a simple answer.
>
> Firstly accuracy and resolution or precision are not to be confused, one
> doesn't imply the other. The K3 display may read to 1Hz but that doesn't
> mean it is accurate to 1Hz. If folks in a net all set their various
> digital displays to the same frequency it doesn't mean they are all on
> the same frequency.
>
> As has been mentioned there is a perfectly good method of adjusting
> calibration detailed in the handbook using WWV. It doesn't directly tune
> or otherwise adjust the reference oscillator (TCXO) but lets whatever is
> involved with controlling the synths what the reference frequency really
> is so that the error can compensated for mathematically. That is my
> understanding. I have been using this WWV method for the past nine years
> and was convinced that the TXCO was probably drifting with age and have
> often said that the CONFIG: REF CAL is not a one off adjustment. This
> unfortunately turns out not to be the whole story.
>
> Now it has to be said, the TXCO does drift, shock, horror. The high
> stability option is described as being +/-1ppm but actually seems to
> achieve 0.5ppm, at least mine does. How do I know this? I don't have a
> frequency counter, or at least I didn't and in fact you don't need one
> as will be discovered later. What I do have is the K3 external reference
> frequency lock option fitted and recently purchased a Leo Bodnar GPS
> disciplined reference clock which provides the necessary 10MHz drive for
> the ext ref option. With a new toy you have go to play and what I
> discovered follows.
>
> With the GPS source up and running, turning on the K3 and enabling the
> external ref feature the REF CAL measured TXCO frequency will be
> displayed, counted by the ref lock module. This frequency will be seen
> to change with warm up. My TXCO has a positive drift of approx 26Hz+/- a
> couple in the first three minutes, for the next 30 minutes it drifts a
> further 6Hz. Thereafter it slowly drifts until after four hours it tops
> out at +57Hz or so and by this measurement method stops drifting.
>
> However, there is more. At the same time as noting the REF CAL frequency
> every minute, for the first hour, I also recorded the front panel (FP)
> temperature. This started at 23C and over the measurement period
> increased to 38C. It was observed that the rise in FP temp and the drift
> follow a similar trajectory. As would be expected.
>
> I have monitored the REF CAL frequency for a couple of months now and
> note that the TXCO drift on my unit always maxes out at more or less the
> same reading.
>
> I have reached the conclusion that if at least two hours of warm up are
> allowed and a WWV cal operation is then performed you will be in a
> pretty good place with respect to total drift and subsequent overall
> frequency (dial) accuracy.
>
> It is easy to discover the pattern and extent of the drift of the TXCO
> in your K3 without any external measuring equipment, external ref locks
> or such.
>
> 1. From cold tune to a WWV frequency you will be able to receive
> reliably for a few hours. Higher the better.
> 2. Wait 5 minutes or you will be chasing a moving target.
> 3. Perform a REF CAL and note the reading.
> 4. Perform a REF CAL every half hour, less if you feel like it and note
> the readings.
> 5. Eventually the reading will really slow down and more or less stop
> changing.
> 6. Choose a reading that indicates that the bulk of the drift has
> happened, (1-2 hours)
> 7. Set REF CAL to that reading and sleep well. Good enough for HF.
>
> Given the highest and lowest frequency readings a further experiment can
> be performed to discover the consequences of the TXCO drift on dial
> accuracy. It only takes a few minutes.
>
> 1. Set REF CALL to the lowest recorded frequency and tune the 

Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[teodoro martinez via Elecraft]

If I understand correctly, your near Fremont CA.  I had a two week turn around 
in Watsonville for Calibration. The charge was about $100. I drove it there. 
Saved the postage charges. Don't forget to call  to obtain authorization for 
the return. It's also a good time to get hardware updates. Ted wp4cw.

On Apr 9, 2017 9:16 AM, Mike Harris  wrote:
>
> Immediate apologies, this is a tad long but hopefully interesting. 
>
> My K3 has the new synths (2), K144XV with REF Lock option and all is 
> well without doing the KREF3 modification. I guess this is an it either 
> works or it don't situation. 
>
> With respect to the post about off frequency, not a simple answer. 
>
> Firstly accuracy and resolution or precision are not to be confused, one 
> doesn't imply the other. The K3 display may read to 1Hz but that doesn't 
> mean it is accurate to 1Hz. If folks in a net all set their various 
> digital displays to the same frequency it doesn't mean they are all on 
> the same frequency. 
>
> As has been mentioned there is a perfectly good method of adjusting 
> calibration detailed in the handbook using WWV. It doesn't directly tune 
> or otherwise adjust the reference oscillator (TCXO) but lets whatever is 
> involved with controlling the synths what the reference frequency really 
> is so that the error can compensated for mathematically. That is my 
> understanding. I have been using this WWV method for the past nine years 
> and was convinced that the TXCO was probably drifting with age and have 
> often said that the CONFIG: REF CAL is not a one off adjustment. This 
> unfortunately turns out not to be the whole story. 
>
> Now it has to be said, the TXCO does drift, shock, horror. The high 
> stability option is described as being +/-1ppm but actually seems to 
> achieve 0.5ppm, at least mine does. How do I know this? I don't have a 
> frequency counter, or at least I didn't and in fact you don't need one 
> as will be discovered later. What I do have is the K3 external reference 
> frequency lock option fitted and recently purchased a Leo Bodnar GPS 
> disciplined reference clock which provides the necessary 10MHz drive for 
> the ext ref option. With a new toy you have go to play and what I 
> discovered follows. 
>
> With the GPS source up and running, turning on the K3 and enabling the 
> external ref feature the REF CAL measured TXCO frequency will be 
> displayed, counted by the ref lock module. This frequency will be seen 
> to change with warm up. My TXCO has a positive drift of approx 26Hz+/- a 
> couple in the first three minutes, for the next 30 minutes it drifts a 
> further 6Hz. Thereafter it slowly drifts until after four hours it tops 
> out at +57Hz or so and by this measurement method stops drifting. 
>
> However, there is more. At the same time as noting the REF CAL frequency 
> every minute, for the first hour, I also recorded the front panel (FP) 
> temperature. This started at 23C and over the measurement period 
> increased to 38C. It was observed that the rise in FP temp and the drift 
> follow a similar trajectory. As would be expected. 
>
> I have monitored the REF CAL frequency for a couple of months now and 
> note that the TXCO drift on my unit always maxes out at more or less the 
> same reading. 
>
> I have reached the conclusion that if at least two hours of warm up are 
> allowed and a WWV cal operation is then performed you will be in a 
> pretty good place with respect to total drift and subsequent overall 
> frequency (dial) accuracy. 
>
> It is easy to discover the pattern and extent of the drift of the TXCO 
> in your K3 without any external measuring equipment, external ref locks 
> or such. 
>
> 1. From cold tune to a WWV frequency you will be able to receive 
> reliably for a few hours. Higher the better. 
> 2. Wait 5 minutes or you will be chasing a moving target. 
> 3. Perform a REF CAL and note the reading. 
> 4. Perform a REF CAL every half hour, less if you feel like it and note 
> the readings. 
> 5. Eventually the reading will really slow down and more or less stop 
> changing. 
> 6. Choose a reading that indicates that the bulk of the drift has 
> happened, (1-2 hours) 
> 7. Set REF CAL to that reading and sleep well. Good enough for HF. 
>
> Given the highest and lowest frequency readings a further experiment can 
> be performed to discover the consequences of the TXCO drift on dial 
> accuracy. It only takes a few minutes. 
>
> 1. Set REF CALL to the lowest recorded frequency and tune the K3 to a 
> stable test frequency, I used my XG3, note the "dial" reading in fine 
> frequency display, 3 digits after the decimal point. I used the CW auto 
> spot feature to do the final tune. 
> 2. Set REF CAL to the highest recorded frequency and retune the K3 as 
> above noting the "dial" frequency. 
>
> The lowest to highest REF CAL frequency is the total TXCO drift in Hz. 
> The lowest to highest "dial" frequency will indicate the consequence of 
> that TXCO drift i

Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Mike Harris]

Immediate apologies, this is a tad long but hopefully interesting.

My K3 has the new synths (2), K144XV with REF Lock option and all is 
well without doing the KREF3 modification. I guess this is an it either 
works or it don't situation.


With respect to the post about off frequency, not a simple answer.

Firstly accuracy and resolution or precision are not to be confused, one 
doesn't imply the other. The K3 display may read to 1Hz but that doesn't 
mean it is accurate to 1Hz. If folks in a net all set their various 
digital displays to the same frequency it doesn't mean they are all on 
the same frequency.


As has been mentioned there is a perfectly good method of adjusting 
calibration detailed in the handbook using WWV. It doesn't directly tune 
or otherwise adjust the reference oscillator (TCXO) but lets whatever is 
involved with controlling the synths what the reference frequency really 
is so that the error can compensated for mathematically. That is my 
understanding. I have been using this WWV method for the past nine years 
and was convinced that the TXCO was probably drifting with age and have 
often said that the CONFIG: REF CAL is not a one off adjustment. This 
unfortunately turns out not to be the whole story.


Now it has to be said, the TXCO does drift, shock, horror. The high 
stability option is described as being +/-1ppm but actually seems to 
achieve 0.5ppm, at least mine does. How do I know this? I don't have a 
frequency counter, or at least I didn't and in fact you don't need one 
as will be discovered later. What I do have is the K3 external reference 
frequency lock option fitted and recently purchased a Leo Bodnar GPS 
disciplined reference clock which provides the necessary 10MHz drive for 
the ext ref option. With a new toy you have go to play and what I 
discovered follows.


With the GPS source up and running, turning on the K3 and enabling the 
external ref feature the REF CAL measured TXCO frequency will be 
displayed, counted by the ref lock module. This frequency will be seen 
to change with warm up. My TXCO has a positive drift of approx 26Hz+/- a 
couple in the first three minutes, for the next 30 minutes it drifts a 
further 6Hz. Thereafter it slowly drifts until after four hours it tops 
out at +57Hz or so and by this measurement method stops drifting.


However, there is more. At the same time as noting the REF CAL frequency 
every minute, for the first hour, I also recorded the front panel (FP) 
temperature. This started at 23C and over the measurement period 
increased to 38C. It was observed that the rise in FP temp and the drift 
follow a similar trajectory. As would be expected.


I have monitored the REF CAL frequency for a couple of months now and 
note that the TXCO drift on my unit always maxes out at more or less the 
same reading.


I have reached the conclusion that if at least two hours of warm up are 
allowed and a WWV cal operation is then performed you will be in a 
pretty good place with respect to total drift and subsequent overall 
frequency (dial) accuracy.


It is easy to discover the pattern and extent of the drift of the TXCO 
in your K3 without any external measuring equipment, external ref locks 
or such.


1. From cold tune to a WWV frequency you will be able to receive 
reliably for a few hours. Higher the better.

2. Wait 5 minutes or you will be chasing a moving target.
3. Perform a REF CAL and note the reading.
4. Perform a REF CAL every half hour, less if you feel like it and note 
the readings.
5. Eventually the reading will really slow down and more or less stop 
changing.
6. Choose a reading that indicates that the bulk of the drift has 
happened, (1-2 hours)

7. Set REF CAL to that reading and sleep well. Good enough for HF.

Given the highest and lowest frequency readings a further experiment can 
be performed to discover the consequences of the TXCO drift on dial 
accuracy. It only takes a few minutes.


1. Set REF CALL to the lowest recorded frequency and tune the K3 to a 
stable test frequency, I used my XG3, note the "dial" reading in fine 
frequency display, 3 digits after the decimal point. I used the CW auto 
spot feature to do the final tune.
2. Set REF CAL to the highest recorded frequency and retune the K3 as 
above noting the "dial" frequency.


The lowest to highest REF CAL frequency is the total TXCO drift in Hz. 
The lowest to highest "dial" frequency will indicate the consequence of 
that TXCO drift in Hz. You will be pleased to note that the two do not 
match. The K3 tuned frequency change is rather less than the TXCO drift.


Reset the REF CAL reading to that you previously chose to be your K3's 
sweat spot.


The above shows why I was wrong in relating the REF CAL frequency 
changes to TXCO ageing. In reality it all comes down to warm up time.


I hope this was worth the read.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO



On 09/04/2017 05:51, Roger via Elecraft wrote:

KREF3MDKT   This modification increases the output level

Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Don Wilhelm]

Steve,

The K3 is not 'known' for being off frequency.
Turn to page 50 and do the Reference Oscillator calibration.  If you do 
not have a frequency counter that is accurate enough +/-1Hz or better at 
49 MHz, you should use Method 2.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/9/2017 1:05 AM, Steve Wilson via Elecraft wrote:

A few of us in Fremont, CA have a weekly 10 meter net. I have a friend with a 
K3 who always sounds off frequency. When I use my K3, I've been told that I am 
off frequency. There are a couple of KX3 users who don't seem to have a 
problem. When I use my Kenwood TS-590 I seem to be on frequency.
Is the K3 known, in general, for being slightly off frequency?

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Roger via Elecraft]

KREF3MDKT   This modification increases the output levels from the KREF3
Reference Oscillator to provide proper drive levels for K3 transceivers
equipped with a KSYN3A synthesizers the KRX3 or KRX3A sub receiver and the
K144XV 2-meter transceiver. 

73, Roger



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Bill Frantz]

There is a procedure in the manual under "Calibration 
Procedures". "Reference Oscillator". Using WWV can get you close 
enough for most uses.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/9/17 at 10:05 PM, elecraft@mailman.qth.net (Steve Wilson 
via Elecraft) wrote:


A few of us in Fremont, CA have a weekly 10 meter net. I have a 
friend with a K3 who always sounds off frequency. When I use my 
K3, I've been told that I am off frequency. There are a couple 
of KX3 users who don't seem to have a problem. When I use my 
Kenwood TS-590 I seem to be on frequency.

Is the K3 known, in general, for being slightly off frequency? 


---
Bill Frantz| Privacy is dead, get over| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | it.  | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  - Scott McNealy | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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[Elecraft] K3 slightly off frequency

[Steve Wilson via Elecraft]

A few of us in Fremont, CA have a weekly 10 meter net. I have a friend with a 
K3 who always sounds off frequency. When I use my K3, I've been told that I am 
off frequency. There are a couple of KX3 users who don't seem to have a 
problem. When I use my Kenwood TS-590 I seem to be on frequency.
Is the K3 known, in general, for being slightly off frequency? 
Thanks, Steve  KG6HJU
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