Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed to the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground symbols. REPLY: Just wait till you go to work in the aircraft industry and try to ground something at 30,000 feet! :-) 73, Bill W6WRT Taking this one step further, it can be very useful to ask yourself: How would this circuit work if it were completely floating in space? This is a very good way to focus on CONNECTIONS, and on the fact that currents flow in closed loops (which is precisely why we use that word circuit). Imagining the circuit in free space will show that the so-called ground connection is usually a return path being shared by several different signal and supply circuits. It will also show that a connection to earth is often not needed - or worse still, may be a complete illusion. It IS important to use the right words, because RF engineering is NOT an easy subject! Smart people will help themselves to think straight by carefully using the right words. Anyone who says Hey, look - I'm getting this right, even when I'm using the wrong words! is probably about to demonstrate that he wasn't smart enough. 73 from Ian GM3SEK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
As my father used to say; If you can't talk it, you don't know it. Stew ke4yh Anyone who says Hey, look - I'm getting this right, even when I'm using the wrong words! is probably about to demonstrate that he wasn't smart enough. 73 from Ian GM3SEK _ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
IMNSHO, no. That promotes incorrect thinking. Education is a GoodThing (tm). 73, Mike NF4L On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:12 PM, Scott Manthe scott.man...@gmail.com wrote: Since the vast majority of radio amateurs are not engineers is it possible that it is preferable to use the terms that amateurs are familiar with in the way that they are familiar with, rather than the correct engineering terms? 73, Scott, N9AA On 4/25/14 5:01 PM, Gary Gregory wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@nf4l.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped) On 4/25/2014 5:04 PM, Josh Fiden wrote: Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed to the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground symbols. REPLY: Just wait till you go to work in the aircraft industry and try to ground something at 30,000 feet! :-) 73, Bill W6WRT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
I took the KX3 manual into the smallest room in the house for a few minutes this morning, and was quite dismayed by what I read under the heading of Grounding and ESD Protection. The manual says A ground system using buried rods and/or a ground counterpoise (wires radiating out from the antenna) can reduce receive interference and help prevent electrical shock or damage due to electrostatic discharge (ESD). A connection to earth DOES provide ESD protection and lightning protection, but it is NOT part of a solution to noise elimination, and does NOT make an antenna work better. Those wires extending out from the antenna are correctly described as radials or a counterpoise, but they are NOT a ground, and they DO make the antenna work better by providing a return for antenna current, and for the EM field produced by the antenna. Indeed, the earth is really a big resistor, and any current that flows in it results in wasted transmitter power. Indeed, an important function of a good radial system is to SHIELD the antenna's EM field from the lossy earth! And those radials do NOT reduce receive noise. A couple of paragraphs later talks about Pedestrian Mobile Ground and says if you plan to transmit, you'll need a trailing ground wire to serve as a minimal counterpoise and greatly improve your transmitted signal. Again, that wire IS a counterpoise, it IS part of the antenna, and it DOES improve your transmitted signal, but it is NOT a ground wire. Earlier on the page, under the heading of Antennas, is the statement If you use a short whip, vertical, or a single wire, a ground of some kind is necessary (described at right) to provide good transmit efficiency. Dipoles, inverted Vs, beams, quads, and similar antennas have an inherent counterpoise, making ground optional, though still desireable. Again, the word ground is the wrong one to describe radials or a counterpoise. And a connection to earth is desirable ONLY for lightning and ESD protection -- it does NOT make the antenna work better, nor does it reduce noise or RFI. These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect more from Elecraft. It is yet another example of confusion and muddled thinking resulting from using the word ground when other words, like radial and counterpoise convey the correct meaning. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Seriously pedantic! Phil w7ox On 4/25/14, 1:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary On 26 April 2014 06:53, Mike Morrow k...@earthlink.net wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com -- *Gary - VK1ZZ, K3NHLSkype: Gary.VK1ZZhttp://www.qsl.net/vk1zz http://www.qsl.net/vk1zzMotorhome Portable* *Grumpy's House* *Elecraft K3KPA500FTKAT500FT* __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
In the pursuit of truth, there is nothing wrong with being pedantic! 73 Stephen, G4SJP On 25 April 2014 22:01, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary On 26 April 2014 06:53, Mike Morrow k...@earthlink.net wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com -- *Gary - VK1ZZ, K3NHLSkype: Gary.VK1ZZhttp://www.qsl.net/vk1zz http://www.qsl.net/vk1zzMotorhome Portable* *Grumpy's House* *Elecraft K3KPA500FTKAT500FT* __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to eastbrantw...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
There is a difference between emailing Elecraft and voicing your concerns privately vs going on the public mailing list and blasting them in front of their customer base. Just my 0.02. Frank KG6EYC On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
We used the term ground a bit loosely in the manual; this seemed justified since we were aiming for pragmatic suggestions to help new hams, not scientific precision. But the text could be updated to be more technically accurate without loosing is information value, and Jim has offered to provide some input on word choice. 73, Wayne N6KR On Apr 25, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary On 26 April 2014 06:53, Mike Morrow k...@earthlink.net wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
... but that's what the internet is for -- so you can tell 50,000 of your closest friends about the slightest little problem. Of course, nobody notices when things go right. On 4/25/2014 2:05 PM, Frank Precissi wrote: There is a difference between emailing Elecraft and voicing your concerns privately vs going on the public mailing list and blasting them in front of their customer base. Just my 0.02. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Since the vast majority of radio amateurs are not engineers is it possible that it is preferable to use the terms that amateurs are familiar with in the way that they are familiar with, rather than the correct engineering terms? 73, Scott, N9AA On 4/25/14 5:01 PM, Gary Gregory wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
That may be. But we're thick-skinned around here, and we revel in a good technical skirmish now and then. Jim is a worthy combatant. Wayne On Apr 25, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Frank Precissi vad...@gmail.com wrote: There is a difference between emailing Elecraft and voicing your concerns privately vs going on the public mailing list and blasting them in front of their customer base. Just my 0.02. Frank KG6EYC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Frank, I don't think Jim's comments would be considered blasting by Elecraft. I believe they know Jim quite well and Jim has provided a lot of input and support over an extended time. I know Jim has taught me to look carefully at my own station installation and the lessons learned have been of benefit to me. I thought Jim's comments were timely but that is only my opinion and not shared by many perhaps. I believe Jim meant no disrespect to Elecraft. Gary On 26 April 2014 07:05, Frank Precissi vad...@gmail.com wrote: There is a difference between emailing Elecraft and voicing your concerns privately vs going on the public mailing list and blasting them in front of their customer base. Just my 0.02. Frank KG6EYC On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com -- *Gary - VK1ZZ, K3NHLSkype: Gary.VK1ZZhttp://www.qsl.net/vk1zz http://www.qsl.net/vk1zzMotorhome Portable* *Grumpy's House* *Elecraft K3KPA500FTKAT500FT* __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Jim is quite correct that a radial or a counterpoise should not be referred to as 'ground'. To do so further confuses the use of ground by many hams. At least the English use words to differentiate between earth and ground (but there is still the lack of differentiation for counterpoises and radials). One needs to consider AC grounds, Lightning grounds, and RF Grounds separately. The only two that have a relationship with driven ground rods are the AC Ground and Lightning Ground. RF ground (and RF return path with respect to the antenna) is an entirely different consideration, and IMHO should not be called ground because it rarely is a ground. There is further confusion about what a ground is. Driven stakes do not constitute an RF ground as one example, and a simple driven stake is not adequate for lightning protection even though it may provide some ESD protection. Yes, I have given this rant several times on this reflector and elsewhere. Do you have your driven ground rods connected to the utility entrance ground rod with a large conductor (#6 or larger)? If not, you may have created a safety hazard instead of any protection. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/25/2014 4:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
After rereading Jim's comments I agree that using the term ground to refer to any kind of radial or counterpoise isn't the best terminology. That usage might not demand an immediate and total rewrite of the manual, but it certainly isn't optimal. 73, Scott, N9AA On 4/25/14 5:01 PM, Gary Gregory wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
No, but many are, or aspire to be, Engineers and prefer correct engineering terminology. This is so much more useful than the propagation of ancient Ham Law or god forbid, CB nonesense. I vote for pedantry... 73, F5VJC On 25 April 2014 23:12, Scott Manthe scott.man...@gmail.com wrote: Since the vast majority of radio amateurs are not engineers is it possible that it is preferable to use the terms that amateurs are familiar with in the way that they are familiar with, rather than the correct engineering terms? 73, Scott, N9AA On 4/25/14 5:01 PM, Gary Gregory wrote: Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air often. Gary __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to foxfive@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Frank, I don't think Jim's comments would be considered blasting by Elecraft. I believe they know Jim quite well and Jim has provided a lot of input and support over an extended time. I know Jim has taught me to look carefully at my own station installation and the lessons learned have been of benefit to me. I thought Jim's comments were timely but that is only my opinion and not shared by many perhaps. I believe Jim meant no disrespect to Elecraft. Gary My issue was not about the content, but about the delivery. If I had an issue about a vague or incorrect term for a product I wouldn't go on a public forum and call them to the mat on how wrong it is (ie: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect more from Elecraft). Frank __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped) On 4/25/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote: There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? REPLY: Pedantic is in the eye of the beholder. Jim is dead on. 73, Bill W6WRT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped) On 4/25/2014 2:12 PM, Scott Manthe wrote: Since the vast majority of radio amateurs are not engineers is it possible that it is preferable to use the terms that amateurs are familiar with in the way that they are familiar with, rather than the correct engineering terms? 73, Scott, N9AA REPLY: No. 73, Bill W6WRT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
On 4/25/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote: There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? None at all -- it is exactly errors like this that have led to widespread misunderstandings about how these things work. And I posted it to the reflector hoping to cause readers to think about these misconceptions. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
I don't think so. The continued use of incorrect terms will lead to further confusion, and does not give the reader sufficient reason to grow in an amatuer's learning path. The correct terms are not just engineering terms, they exist for a reason - not all that is referred to as ground are equal and many do not refer to mother earth. Amateurs are to advance the state of the art, and it is implied in The Amateur' Code - He keeps his station abreast of science. To me that does not mean speaking to the lowest common denominator when that common denominator is a source of confusion already. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/25/2014 5:12 PM, Scott Manthe wrote: Since the vast majority of radio amateurs are not engineers is it possible that it is preferable to use the terms that amateurs are familiar with in the way that they are familiar with, rather than the correct engineering terms? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
While they're at it, I'd suggest getting rid of antenna tuner and its ATU derivatives. AMU would go far in helping a new ham understand why he needs to push that button. As it is, many erroneously believe the antenna itself is being tuned. 73, Kent K9ZTV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped) On 4/25/2014 3:06 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote: As it is, many erroneously believe the antenna itself is being tuned. REPLY: Please don't get hung up over tuning vs matching. The word tune in English is widely used to mean adjusting something to reach a desired condition. You use an antenna tuner to match impedances. You tune you car's engine to match factory specs. To many of us antenna means the whole system including feedline. In that sense, antenna tuner is correct. It's like tuning an amplifier. Again, you are tuning the output network to match impedances. Everyone knows what it means to tune an amplifier. Or would you rather say Please standby while I match the output impedance of the tube in my amplifier to my antenna system? 73, Bill W6WRT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
From: Wayne Burdick That may be. But we're thick-skinned around here, --- Snip --- --- I'm glad to see you folks are Thick skinned. I know I can come across as harsh but It's better to have a friend tell you a harsh truth than an enemy (or fake friend) tell you everything is OK. I Like Elecraft as a Company and I have steered a number of people to Elecraft. So I have a interest in seeing Elecraft do well not only for myself but for those I send to Elecraft. The day I tell you that Elecraft is perfect is they day you will know I no longer care. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
The term ground has always been used to refer to the common tie point in a circuit. For example the shape on the schematic with the three little horizontal lines is referred to as a ground symbol. But that has caused no end of confusion. Contrary to widely-held belief, in 99% of cases it is not necessary to tie the ground point to earth for proper operation. You often hear people say that a low-pass TVI filter must be grounded for proper operation. If by grounded they mean tied to the chassis of the transmitter, then that is correct. But if by grounded they mean connected to earth, then it is absolutely not true. People often blame TVI on inadequate earth ground. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A connection to earth ground could make the TVI worse, better, or (most likely) no change, depending on the particular installation, but if you have a TVI problem it is almost certainly not due to lack of an earth ground. Alan N1AL On 04/25/2014 02:16 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Jim is quite correct that a radial or a counterpoise should not be referred to as 'ground'. To do so further confuses the use of ground by many hams. At least the English use words to differentiate between earth and ground (but there is still the lack of differentiation for counterpoises and radials). One needs to consider AC grounds, Lightning grounds, and RF Grounds separately. The only two that have a relationship with driven ground rods are the AC Ground and Lightning Ground. RF ground (and RF return path with respect to the antenna) is an entirely different consideration, and IMHO should not be called ground because it rarely is a ground. There is further confusion about what a ground is. Driven stakes do not constitute an RF ground as one example, and a simple driven stake is not adequate for lightning protection even though it may provide some ESD protection. Yes, I have given this rant several times on this reflector and elsewhere. Do you have your driven ground rods connected to the utility entrance ground rod with a large conductor (#6 or larger)? If not, you may have created a safety hazard instead of any protection. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/25/2014 4:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@sonic.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
I know Jim very well and he is technically correct of course. That said, I can make the case that the goal of the manual is to communicate to a very large audience on the set-up and use of the radio. For many of them [most?], the term ground can mean the chassis connection, the negative terminal of the power supply, a rod driven in the ground, a wire laying on or slightly elevated from the earth's surface in the vicinity of the antenna, or even the Pacific Ocean [if you happen to be afloat in it]. I think consistency in choice of terms is probably at least as important as the exact terms themselves. The manual *does* need to be very clear on matters of safety. NEC requires that all earth electrodes be bonded together with heavy wire and bonded to the service entrance earth electrode. If the manual is going to talk about an earth electrode, it probably should mention items like this, perhaps in a footnote. On a different but related subject, I host and power the neighborhood RAP for the wireless company on my tower in return for free I'net access at the backhaul speed [17-25 mbps or so]. They recently replaced their equipment and used an SMPS in the UPS to power the radios and their router. The SMPS was putting out raucous, 7-8 KHz wide signals every 26 KHz from below the AM BC band to about 60 meters. Peaks were running about -40 dBm [S9+35] on 80 and 160. It's gone now, thanks to the info in Jim's very detailed dissertation on RFI [http://k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf]. We're all increasingly subject to RFI conditions with the explosion of RF noisemakers out there. If you have such a problem, I strongly recommend reading Jim's paper before trying to mitigate the noises. It will save you a bundle of money, effort, and time. And, proper grounding can be a big factor. :-) Now if I can just get CalTrans to fix their street light down at the interchange. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org On 4/25/2014 2:14 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: That may be. But we're thick-skinned around here, and we revel in a good technical skirmish now and then. Jim is a worthy combatant. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Years ago [many] they were usually called antenna couplers which is somewhat closer to fact. I was once told by a trucker with a radio and no license that the purpose of the gizmo in the cables to the co-phase, coil-boosted antennas on his mirrors was to block the SWR's from the radio. I guess that's one way to look at it. You're right though, ATU technically sends the wrong message. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org On 4/25/2014 3:06 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote: While they're at it, I'd suggest getting rid of antenna tuner and its ATU derivatives. AMU would go far in helping a new ham understand why he needs to push that button. As it is, many erroneously believe the antenna itself is being tuned. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
I took the KX3 manual into the smallest room in the house for a few minutes this morning NOW! Is there anyone in the audience, who still has doubt about some of the most Earth shattering thought processes ever to evolve from that Small Room. These thoughts are so Electrifying that it leaves its occupants no other option, but to have both feet Grounded Such is the beauty of having a well grounded, down to earth idea that can be conceived in no other place but the Small Room :-) ps. The devil made me do it! 73 Milverton. On Friday, April 25, 2014 5:39 PM, Frank Precissi vad...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Frank, I don't think Jim's comments would be considered blasting by Elecraft. I believe they know Jim quite well and Jim has provided a lot of input and support over an extended time. I know Jim has taught me to look carefully at my own station installation and the lessons learned have been of benefit to me. I thought Jim's comments were timely but that is only my opinion and not shared by many perhaps. I believe Jim meant no disrespect to Elecraft. Gary My issue was not about the content, but about the delivery. If I had an issue about a vague or incorrect term for a product I wouldn't go on a public forum and call them to the mat on how wrong it is (ie: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect more from Elecraft). Frank __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to tnny...@yahoo.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
I am afraid that I don't think Jim is pedantic. What he said is factually correct and it is nothing wrong for him to tell us the fact in the mail listing. The best part of Elecraft is having real thick-skin. I always criticise them openly in this mail listing. Although I am their loyal user, there is NOT a logic that I should always clap my hands towards them on every occasion. On the other hand, if I said nothing on this mail listing in future, I might have already quietly sold all my elecraft gears. Well done, Jim and I am looking forward to more radio knowledge. Unlike most of the learned telecom specialists here, I am not a radio man by profession. 73 Johnny VR2XMC 寄件人︰ Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com 收件人︰ elecraft@mailman.qth.net 傳送日期︰ 2014年04月26日 (週六) 5:52 AM 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual On 4/25/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote: There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? None at all -- it is exactly errors like this that have led to widespread misunderstandings about how these things work. And I posted it to the reflector hoping to cause readers to think about these misconceptions. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/ Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to vr2...@yahoo.com.hk __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
I'm with Frank. His remark is right on the money, IMHO. Robert K5TD Sent from my iPad On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:05 PM, Frank Precissi vad...@gmail.com wrote: There is a difference between emailing Elecraft and voicing your concerns privately vs going on the public mailing list and blasting them in front of their customer base. Just my 0.02. Frank KG6EYC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed to the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground symbols. Lots of room for confusion, and very often they seem to be used interchangeably. Using them correctly conveys useful info! I vote yes for pedantic! 73, Josh W6XU On 4/25/2014 3:48 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: For example the shape on the schematic with the three little horizontal lines is referred to as a ground symbol. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Hi Folks, We're in direct contact with Jim on this issue, so lets end the thread at this time in the interest of keeping list traffic under control. Now back to our regular mayhem.. ;-) 73, Eric List moderator elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Given the subject matter, I believe Jim's comments are quite in order to assist in educating the hams on this reflector. Should that post been proceeded by a private email to Wayne and the other authors of the manual, that is a different matter entirely, it may have been done, but we will never know about that. The information on Jim's post should be valuable to the general ham population, so a public post was appropriate IMHO. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/25/2014 7:57 PM, Robert L. Tucker via Elecraft wrote: I'm with Frank. His remark is right on the money, IMHO. Robert K5TD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
U wouldnt the correct term be Return when talking antennas Bob K3DJC On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 17:04:13 -0700 Josh Fiden j...@voodoolab.com writes: Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed to the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground symbols. Lots of room for confusion, and very often they seem to be used interchangeably. Using them correctly conveys useful info! I vote yes for pedantic! 73, Josh W6XU On 4/25/2014 3:48 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: For example the shape on the schematic with the three little horizontal lines is referred to as a ground symbol. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to riese-k3...@juno.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
On 4/25/2014 5:08 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Should that post been proceeded by a private email to Wayne and the other authors of the manual, that is a different matter entirely, it may have been done, but we will never know about that. If I had discovered a serious fault (or even a minor one) with a product or firmware that might have used by someone to give Elecraft a black eye, I would have done so directly with Wayne, and I have done that more than a few times in the past. But this one is about educating one and all about concepts that are widely misunderstood by hams, including, sadly, many who write manuals. W3FPR, K6DGW, N1AL are among those who clearly understood, and posted clear examples of exactly the misconceptions I was describing. Within an hour of my post, Wayne responded in a very positive manner, asked if I would like to mark up a copy of the text in question, I agreed. I sent the marked up text back to him about 90 minutes ago. Try having an exchange like that with ANY other manufacturer! How many years (and new models) did it take Yaesu to fix their massive key click problem with the FT1000-series? 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Jim wrote: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect more from Elecraft. It is yet another example of confusion and muddled thinking resulting from using the word ground when other words, like radial and counterpoise convey the correct meaning. I wrote: There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps? Jim wrote: None at all -- it is exactly errors like this that have led to widespread misunderstandings about how these things work. There is neither dispute with nor criticism of the technical points of your original post. My response certainly made none. In that light, those who take issue with my posting do so with a straw man. The problem is presentation...namely your subject line assertion, and your last paragraph, quoted above. Both fully meet any reasonable definition of pedantry, or hyperbole, or both. I have several decades experience communicating technical material in my profession (electrical and nuclear engineering). Pedantry and hyperbole mitigate against effective communication...unless used in an obviously humorous presentation. I missed the humor in your presentation. :-) I, for one, have never expected to be instructed in antenna principles from the owner's manual of any radio I have ever purchased in 46 years as a ham. I would not be interested in any such material provided by Elecraft or any other manufacturer. I'd say remove it...it doesn't belong in an equipment manual. Have the manufacturers of all those $300 to $600 magic sky hooks that folks buy for their KX3 put that info in their manuals, if anywhere it must be other than one of the many many proper handbooks. :-) 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
Wow, when you guys get your teeth into something, you really chew. 73, Dick, W1KSZ On 4/25/2014 4:24 PM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote: I took the KX3 manual into the smallest room in the house for a few minutes this morning NOW! Is there anyone in the audience, who still has doubt about some of the most Earth shattering thought processes ever to evolve from that Small Room. These thoughts are so Electrifying that it leaves its occupants no other option, but to have both feet Grounded Such is the beauty of having a well grounded, down to earth idea that can be conceived in no other place but the Small Room :-) ps. The devil made me do it! 73 Milverton. On Friday, April 25, 2014 5:39 PM, Frank Precissi vad...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Gary Gregory vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote: Frank, I don't think Jim's comments would be considered blasting by Elecraft. I believe they know Jim quite well and Jim has provided a lot of input and support over an extended time. I know Jim has taught me to look carefully at my own station installation and the lessons learned have been of benefit to me. I thought Jim's comments were timely but that is only my opinion and not shared by many perhaps. I believe Jim meant no disrespect to Elecraft. Gary My issue was not about the content, but about the delivery. If I had an issue about a vague or incorrect term for a product I wouldn't go on a public forum and call them to the mat on how wrong it is (ie: These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect more from Elecraft). Frank __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to tnny...@yahoo.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w1...@earthlink.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual
And we chew on it for the edification of all hams that may be listening. There are myths and misinformation that I hear everyday on the ham bands, and to a lesser extent on reflector postings. We can all learn from posts of the nature that Jim presented. I have echoed several derivatives of his comments in the past, but perhaps it is time for a refresher (and some study) on what grounds accomplish and how to implement them correctly. For Lightning protection, I refer you to the information by Ron Block that can be found at http://www.arrl.org/lightning-protection. He does cover some AC ground protection in those articles as well. He talks of a perimeter wire around any building and tying it into the Utility entrance ground. That is important for AC safety of your station and your home. As I indicated, RF Ground is neither of those grounding systems. RF Ground is a point in the antenna system where the RF voltage is zero. That is entirely dependent on your antenna - for a balanced dipole, it exists at the center of the antenna feedpoint, and for a vertical, it should exist at the midpoint of the vertical radiator and whatever counterpoise is used. That may or may not be associated (and usually is not) associated with any reference to mother earth - it is a concept that is unique to the RF voltage and current. In other words, attempting to create an RF Ground with a connection to earth may be an exercise in futility and may actually create RF in the shack and depends on the length of the wire to earth. For instance a ground wire 8 feet in length to a ground rod will be a high impedance to RF at 28 MHz, so instead of providing an RF Ground, it will create just the opposite. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/25/2014 9:14 PM, Richard Solomon wrote: Wow, when you guys get your teeth into something, you really chew. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
