Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[SteveL]

Several places I’ve seen the results of experiments conducted measuring 
vertical antenna radiated field strength as the number of ground radials were 
increased.  There is definitely a point beyond which the addition of more 
radials produces diminishing returns at increased expense and effort - and the 
number is around 40.  However, the number is very dependent on local soil 
conditions and radial length. 

References to several experiments...
https://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/160_m_vertical_measurements.pdf 


https://consumer.steppir.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Radial-Systems-for-Elevated-and-Ground-Mounted-Antennas-2.2-12_2018.pdf
 


The latter reference also compares and contrasts ground vs. elevated radials.  
In short, you will require many more ground radials to match the performance of 
a few elevated radials.

Some good reading!
Steve
AA8AF

> 
> 
> 120 radials was a legal requirement of FCC Rules, and was primarily for 
> standardization of performance.
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Ed Cole]

I used three radials (70-foot long) made of 2-foot wide chicken wire 
(think its galvanized steel) on my 600m inverted-L.  Fourth radial was 
the shield of my 1-5/8 inch diameter Heliax line that ran 120-feet from 
the supporting tower to the shack in our house.


I ran a circle of bare No. 12 copper thhn around the base of the tower 
to connect the chicken wire radials (soldered).  That was also attached 
to a 10-foot copper ground rod as was the Heliax shield.


Inverted-L was 43 foot high by 122-foot long and base loaded with a 
large coil made of No. 12 thhn (10-inch diam by 11-inch long windings 
spaced 1/4-inch).  Base coil was grounded.


I measured Z=20 + j0 using a modified MFJ-269 inserted on the ground end 
of the coil.  Radiation resistance calculated by EZNEC = 0.8 ohm with 
about 4% efficiency.  I run 100w on 600m so ERP was about 4w.


I've previously written about the new antenna:
http://www.kl7uw.com/630m.htm

I will use Bob's staple method on radials for my new "T" antenna.

73, Ed - KL7UW

I had to roll up the chicken wire to mow.  Used concrete blocks to hold 
it down in several spots.


Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:22:33 -0700
From: Mike Fatchett 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials
Message-ID: <7ecd295a-25fd-51ad-af9c-86f034849...@w0mu.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

A well known 9 lander lid uses chicken wire for his 160 antenna and it
works very very well.? I am not sure what effect crossing the wires
has.? Has anyone done any real testing of this or is it just theory or a
wives tale?? Did he stumble upon the holy grail of radials?

Most of the results of the radial field are from the first 50 percent or
so.? You do not necessarily have to have 66 ft radials on 80m to work
and get out.? Put out as many as you can as long as you can and shorter
radials are fine too.

W0MU
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[David Bunte]

At my last QTH (I moved a week ago), I had 3000' feet of #14 THHN under my
30' vertical. I paid about $30 per 500' roll. Putting them down was a
relative piece of cake. I cut the grass as short as my mower would permit,
then laid the radials on the ground, securing them with sod stables as
often as needed to keep them close to the ground. Within a week they were
hard to see... and the first mowing after installation resulted in NO lost
wires at all.

In ten years with that antenna at two different locations I confirmed over
300 countries, 9 BDXCC and over 1800 on Challenge. I was blessed with a
very quiet location, and for the last few toward DXCC on 160 I did increase
the height of the antenna to 43' and added a 160/80 meter matching network.
I felt it was the best I could do on my small lot, and it gave MANY hours
of pleasure.

73 de Dave - K9FN

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 3:38 PM Bill Frantz  wrote:

> On 1/17/22 at 10:52 AM, w3tb@gmail.com (Ted Edwards W3TB) wrote:
>
> > Good methods for getting the wire down.
> > Separate Question:  What about using an insulated wire that way?
>
>
> K9YC recommends :
>
> Guidelines for All Radials
> • Insulated wire holds up longer
> • #18 minimum size for durability
> –Large spools hard to buy
> • #14 THHN (house wire) works well
> –Mass market items often less expensive and easy to find
> –Discount for 6 or more spools at big box stores (Home Depot, Lowe’s)
>
>
> He says about ground screens:
>
> Ground Screens Can Work
> • Some AM broadcasters use a heavy copper mesh, typically 40 ft square
>   surrounding the tower, with radials connected at perimeter of the mesh
> • Provides very effective shielding between antenna and earth where
>   current density and magnetic fields are strongest
>
> Some Ground Screen Solutions
> • Use strips of 3-ft or 5-ft wide galvanized hardware cloth
>   –~ $350 for 600 sq ft, 19-gauge
> • Or strips of galvanized welded wire fencing 2” x 2” or 2” x 4” grid
>   –~ $ 150 for 600 sq ft, 14 gauge
> • Or strips of galvanized wire mesh, 1” x 1” squares
>
> Some Ground Screen Solutions
> • If possible, lay strips out radially in four directions
> • Use alternative layouts when it’s the best you can do
> –A single strip, centered below the antenna if possible, or even two
> running
>  parallel to each other
> –More is better
>
> For more details and references see the website.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> ---
> Bill Frantz| Concurrency is hard. 12   | Periwinkle
> (408)348-7900  | out 10 programmers get it | 150 Rivermead Rd #235
> www.pwpconsult.com | wrong.  - Jeff Frantz | Peterborough, NH 03458
>
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Ray]

I found Lots of SNAKES in Texas !
WA6VAB   Ray K3 


From: Fred Jensen
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 1:34 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

Yes.  A long time ago on the engineering crew at KSBY-TV, the station 
would rent us out to some of the AM stations who did not have a resident 
engineer, usually when something quit or when their PoP came due.  
Mostly 5 and 10 kW, usually directional, at least at night.  These 
stations were required to have at least 120 radials.  They were also 
required to have those 120 radials connected to the matching network 
ground.  It was common to have a conductive grid out from the base of 
the tower(s)  with the radials connected to the outer edge since 120 to 
a single point is a bit hard physically.  Each tower had it's own grid 
and radial field.  After a few visits, I discovered:

1.  They usually didn't want to me to go out to the tower(s) to inspect 
it/them and the matching network(s). "Snakes" was the excuse.

2.  After insisting on going and that someone accompany me or we 
couldn't complete the PoP, I usually found that no one had been out 
there in years, the matching/phasing networks were full of bugs, webs, 
weeds, and corrosion, and of the radials I could find, some were 
connected, some had corroded away from the connection, and some couldn't 
be found.  Never encountered a snake.

I guess they were faking their PoP's, and maybe continued to do so 
because we weren't hired again by a couple of them.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Jim Brown wrote on 1/17/2022 12:44 PM:
> Just out of high school, I had a summer job at WSAZ, a 5-kw with a 
> 4-tower array, with the same ground screen/raidal configuration on 
> each tower, silver-soldering those radials.
>
> 120 radials was a legal requirement of FCC Rules, and was primarily 
> for standardization of performance.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 1/17/2022 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:
>> Mike,
>> When I was an AM radio broadcast engineer in the 60s & 70s, we used a
>> copper screen for the first 20' to 50' around the tower base and silver
>> soldered all the 1/4 wavelength radials to the common point straps and
>> several places along the screen. This was in Florida with sandy soil. I
>> seemed to remember from my 1st Phone exam that 120 radials were 
>> required.
>



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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Fred Jensen]

Yes.  A long time ago on the engineering crew at KSBY-TV, the station 
would rent us out to some of the AM stations who did not have a resident 
engineer, usually when something quit or when their PoP came due.  
Mostly 5 and 10 kW, usually directional, at least at night.  These 
stations were required to have at least 120 radials.  They were also 
required to have those 120 radials connected to the matching network 
ground.  It was common to have a conductive grid out from the base of 
the tower(s)  with the radials connected to the outer edge since 120 to 
a single point is a bit hard physically.  Each tower had it's own grid 
and radial field.  After a few visits, I discovered:


1.  They usually didn't want to me to go out to the tower(s) to inspect 
it/them and the matching network(s). "Snakes" was the excuse.


2.  After insisting on going and that someone accompany me or we 
couldn't complete the PoP, I usually found that no one had been out 
there in years, the matching/phasing networks were full of bugs, webs, 
weeds, and corrosion, and of the radials I could find, some were 
connected, some had corroded away from the connection, and some couldn't 
be found.  Never encountered a snake.


I guess they were faking their PoP's, and maybe continued to do so 
because we weren't hired again by a couple of them.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Jim Brown wrote on 1/17/2022 12:44 PM:
Just out of high school, I had a summer job at WSAZ, a 5-kw with a 
4-tower array, with the same ground screen/raidal configuration on 
each tower, silver-soldering those radials.


120 radials was a legal requirement of FCC Rules, and was primarily 
for standardization of performance.


73, Jim K9YC

On 1/17/2022 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:

Mike,
When I was an AM radio broadcast engineer in the 60s & 70s, we used a
copper screen for the first 20' to 50' around the tower base and silver
soldered all the 1/4 wavelength radials to the common point straps and
several places along the screen. This was in Florida with sandy soil. I
seemed to remember from my 1st Phone exam that 120 radials were 
required.






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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Jim Brown]

Just out of high school, I had a summer job at WSAZ, a 5-kw with a 
4-tower array, with the same ground screen/raidal configuration on each 
tower, silver-soldering those radials.


120 radials was a legal requirement of FCC Rules, and was primarily for 
standardization of performance.


73, Jim K9YC

On 1/17/2022 9:28 AM, George Danner wrote:

Mike,
When I was an AM radio broadcast engineer in the 60s & 70s, we used a
copper screen for the first 20' to 50' around the tower base and silver
soldered all the 1/4 wavelength radials to the common point straps and
several places along the screen. This was in Florida with sandy soil. I
seemed to remember from my 1st Phone exam that 120 radials were required.



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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Bill Frantz]

On 1/17/22 at 10:52 AM, w3tb@gmail.com (Ted Edwards W3TB) wrote:

> Good methods for getting the wire down.
> Separate Question:  What about using an insulated wire that way?


K9YC recommends :

Guidelines for All Radials
• Insulated wire holds up longer
• #18 minimum size for durability
–Large spools hard to buy
• #14 THHN (house wire) works well
–Mass market items often less expensive and easy to find
–Discount for 6 or more spools at big box stores (Home Depot, Lowe’s)


He says about ground screens:

Ground Screens Can Work
• Some AM broadcasters use a heavy copper mesh, typically 40 ft square
  surrounding the tower, with radials connected at perimeter of the mesh
• Provides very effective shielding between antenna and earth where
  current density and magnetic fields are strongest
  
Some Ground Screen Solutions
• Use strips of 3-ft or 5-ft wide galvanized hardware cloth
  –~ $350 for 600 sq ft, 19-gauge
• Or strips of galvanized welded wire fencing 2” x 2” or 2” x 4” grid
  –~ $ 150 for 600 sq ft, 14 gauge
• Or strips of galvanized wire mesh, 1” x 1” squares

Some Ground Screen Solutions
• If possible, lay strips out radially in four directions
• Use alternative layouts when it’s the best you can do
–A single strip, centered below the antenna if possible, or even two running
 parallel to each other
–More is better

For more details and references see the website.

73 Bill AE6JV

---
Bill Frantz| Concurrency is hard. 12   | Periwinkle
(408)348-7900  | out 10 programmers get it | 150 Rivermead Rd #235
www.pwpconsult.com | wrong.  - Jeff Frantz | Peterborough, NH 03458

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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[George Danner]

Mike,
When I was an AM radio broadcast engineer in the 60s & 70s, we used a
copper screen for the first 20' to 50' around the tower base and silver
soldered all the 1/4 wavelength radials to the common point straps and
several places along the screen. This was in Florida with sandy soil. I
seemed to remember from my 1st Phone exam that 120 radials were required.
73 George AI4VZ

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 11:23 AM Mike Fatchett  wrote:

> A well known 9 lander lid uses chicken wire for his 160 antenna and it
> works very very well.  I am not sure what effect crossing the wires
> has.  Has anyone done any real testing of this or is it just theory or a
> wives tale?  Did he stumble upon the holy grail of radials?
>
> Most of the results of the radial field are from the first 50 percent or
> so.  You do not necessarily have to have 66 ft radials on 80m to work
> and get out.  Put out as many as you can as long as you can and shorter
> radials are fine too.
>
> W0MU
>
> On 1/16/2022 2:15 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> > This discussion reminded me of a question that I’ve often wondered about
> > but have never asked.
> > I have read that when laying out radials on or under the ground, one
> should
> > be careful to ensure that they radiate out from a central point without
> > ever crossing one another.
> >
> > I have also read about this idea of using galvanized mesh in place of a
> > traditional radial field. In a mesh, the conductors not only cross, but
> are
> > bonded together at every crossing.
> >
> > So, is there actually an issue if a couple radials happen to cross each
> > other?
> >
> > Not that one would do so on purpose, but when adding radials to a system
> > where the existing ones are no longer visible, it could easily happen…
> >
> > Curious minds want to know.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 2:55 PM Jim Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/16/2022 12:19 PM, Mike Markowski wrote:
> >>> A construction site had left over galvanized mesh rolls that I bought
> at
> >>> great discount.  I unrolled them symmetrically about my then soon-to-be
> >>> installed vertical.  Easier than individual for lazy hams like me:-)
> and
> >>> 2nd qso at 100W from Pennsylvania was Cambodia!  That qso made my day
> and
> >>> then some.
> >> Rob Sherwood, KC0B, published on this in the May 1977 edition of "Ham
> >> Radio," and I included his ideas in this talk.
> >>
> >> http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf
> >>
> >> 73, Jim K9YC
> >> __
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> >>
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Mike Fatchett]

A well known 9 lander lid uses chicken wire for his 160 antenna and it 
works very very well.  I am not sure what effect crossing the wires 
has.  Has anyone done any real testing of this or is it just theory or a 
wives tale?  Did he stumble upon the holy grail of radials?


Most of the results of the radial field are from the first 50 percent or 
so.  You do not necessarily have to have 66 ft radials on 80m to work 
and get out.  Put out as many as you can as long as you can and shorter 
radials are fine too.


W0MU

On 1/16/2022 2:15 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

This discussion reminded me of a question that I’ve often wondered about
but have never asked.
I have read that when laying out radials on or under the ground, one should
be careful to ensure that they radiate out from a central point without
ever crossing one another.

I have also read about this idea of using galvanized mesh in place of a
traditional radial field. In a mesh, the conductors not only cross, but are
bonded together at every crossing.

So, is there actually an issue if a couple radials happen to cross each
other?

Not that one would do so on purpose, but when adding radials to a system
where the existing ones are no longer visible, it could easily happen…

Curious minds want to know.


On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 2:55 PM Jim Brown  wrote:


On 1/16/2022 12:19 PM, Mike Markowski wrote:

A construction site had left over galvanized mesh rolls that I bought at
great discount.  I unrolled them symmetrically about my then soon-to-be
installed vertical.  Easier than individual for lazy hams like me:-)  and
2nd qso at 100W from Pennsylvania was Cambodia!  That qso made my day and
then some.

Rob Sherwood, KC0B, published on this in the May 1977 edition of "Ham
Radio," and I included his ideas in this talk.

http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Ted Edwards W3TB]

Good methods for getting the wire down.
Separate Question:  What about using an insulated wire that way?

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:24 AM Gary Peterson  wrote:

> A friend was installing a homebrew, two tower, vertical directional array
> in his back yard.  His method of placing the copper wire radials below the
> surface of the ground was quite unusual.  He slowly crept along the ground
> on his hands and knees, while pushing a skil-saw, with carbide blade,
> against the ground.  After sawing a slot, he poked the wire in with a
> homemade, forked tool.  Stomping on the ground closed the opening.  I don’t
> recall how many carbide tipped saw blades it took.  His neighbors were
> probably questioning his sanity.
>
> Gary, K0CX
>
> With regard to installing radials on the ground:
>
> I used a weed whacker configured as an edge trimmer to make a cut through
> the grass.  Feed the radial wire in the slit and use staples as Bob
> suggests to secure the wire.  In a month or so, the grass grows over the
> wire and poses no problem mowing.  Ed Deichler
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
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-- 
73 de Ted Edwards, W3TB and GØPWW

and thinking about operating CW:
"Do today what others won't,
so you can do tomorrow what others can't."
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[Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Gary Peterson]

A friend was installing a homebrew, two tower, vertical directional array in 
his back yard.  His method of placing the copper wire radials below the surface 
of the ground was quite unusual.  He slowly crept along the ground on his hands 
and knees, while pushing a skil-saw, with carbide blade, against the ground.  
After sawing a slot, he poked the wire in with a homemade, forked tool.  
Stomping on the ground closed the opening.  I don’t recall how many carbide 
tipped saw blades it took.  His neighbors were probably questioning his sanity.

Gary, K0CX  

With regard to installing radials on the ground:

I used a weed whacker configured as an edge trimmer to make a cut through
the grass.  Feed the radial wire in the slit and use staples as Bob
suggests to secure the wire.  In a month or so, the grass grows over the
wire and poses no problem mowing.  Ed Deichler 

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[Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Gary Peterson]

...”Digging in radials does not interest me. Likewise, catching them 
in lawn equipment is also a PIA. So, here is what I have done and it has 
worked well”...  Tom, WB2KLD”

I did something very similar, many years ago, after hombrewing a 40 meter 
vertical.  In order to pin the copper wire radials to the ground, I used pegs, 
made from wood dowel.

I bought some lengths of quarter-inch wood dowel and cut them into 2 inch 
lengths.  One-half inch from the end of each, I drilled a hole, large enough to 
pass the radial wire.

I threaded several pieces of dowel onto each radial wire.  As I stretched each 
wire away from the antenna base, I pounded the pegs into the grass with a 
hammer.  When finished, each radial was stretched tightly to the ground.  On 
uneven ground more pegs are required to cause the wire to adhere to the 
terrain.  Within a few weeks, the radials were no longer visible and I could 
mow over the radial field.

My reason for using wood pegs was that they were non-conducting. Thus, there 
would be no possibility of electrolytic corrosion or rectification between 
dissimilar metals.  Also, the wood pegs are, over time, biodegradable.  The 
aluminum tubing vertical antenna worked very well, until an ice storm loaded 
the guy wires so heavily that it failed.  The radials are probably still out 
there.

Gary
K0CX

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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Gary K9GS]

Or just buy some landscape staples. Used to hold down 
sod.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073F1VMHS/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_454ZBHA4KGC6C3HCNSMN?_encoding=UTF8&psc=173,Gary
 K9GS
 Original message From: Bob McGraw  
Date: 1/16/22  3:23 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: 
[Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials I made a handful of staples using some 
scrap solid wire.  #10, #12, #14 works great and no need to remove the 
insulation.   Make them about 4" long per side, and place them over the radial, 
pushing them into the ground.  I agree, cut the grass short, pull the radial 
tight and "staple it to the ground".I don't care for nails, or the likely hood 
of such,  in my lawn tractor tires.73Bob, K4TAXOn 1/16/2022 11:40 AM, 
elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:> Message: 9> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 
11:20:11 -0500> From: Tom & Barb Valosin> 
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground 
radials> Message-ID:<8d6b4b1b-cd91-59ba-c485-0f49b0d5a...@midtel.net>> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed>> Now in my mid 
seventies I have embraced the idea of conservation of> energy. Digging in 
radials does not interest me. Likewise, catching them> in lawn equipment is 
also a PIA. So, here is what I have done and it has> worked well. I trim the 
grass.? Then I use a length of string and> stretch it out along the path of the 
future radial. Next I take a> "weed-wacker" and shorten the grass a bit more. 
Now I use any old> available can of spray paint and spray a few marks along the 
length of> the string. Remember to roll up the string now - no longer needed. 
Then> I take my radial wire, make the connection at the antenna base and> 
stretch the wire out along the marked path. Depending of the> 
levelness/evenness of the surface I then take a nail and make one wrap> of the 
radial around the nail, tighten the wire so it is straight with> no loops and 
insert the nail into the dirt. Do this along the length of> the radial. 
Typically I do it about every 10 to 15 feet. In a couple of> days the grass 
grows and the wire is so low (deeply embedded) in the> grass that mowing will 
not be an issue. The entire radial system need> not be done at one time and it 
is easy to add radials if you wish. HINT> - get a grandchild to help, or a 
neighborhood youngster or a person> working toward their license or one of the 
younger club members or .> anyone but yourself. Remember however to 
compensate them for their time> and effort!>> Tom, 
WB2KLD__Elecraft 
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Ed Deichler]

With regard to installing radials on the ground:

I used a weed whacker configured as an edge trimmer to make a cut through
the grass.  Feed the radial wire in the slit and use staples as Bob
suggests to secure the wire.  In a month or so, the grass grows over the
wire and poses no problem mowing.

73 de Ed

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 8:24 PM Bob McGraw  wrote:

> I made a handful of staples using some scrap solid wire.  #10, #12, #14
> works great and no need to remove the insulation.   Make them about 4"
> long per side, and place them over the radial, pushing them into the
> ground.  I agree, cut the grass short, pull the radial tight and "staple
> it to the ground".
>
> I don't care for nails, or the likely hood of such,  in my lawn tractor
> tires.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 1/16/2022 11:40 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 11:20:11 -0500
> > From: Tom & Barb Valosin
> > To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials
> > Message-ID:<8d6b4b1b-cd91-59ba-c485-0f49b0d5a...@midtel.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >
> > Now in my mid seventies I have embraced the idea of conservation of
> > energy. Digging in radials does not interest me. Likewise, catching them
> > in lawn equipment is also a PIA. So, here is what I have done and it has
> > worked well. I trim the grass.? Then I use a length of string and
> > stretch it out along the path of the future radial. Next I take a
> > "weed-wacker" and shorten the grass a bit more. Now I use any old
> > available can of spray paint and spray a few marks along the length of
> > the string. Remember to roll up the string now - no longer needed. Then
> > I take my radial wire, make the connection at the antenna base and
> > stretch the wire out along the marked path. Depending of the
> > levelness/evenness of the surface I then take a nail and make one wrap
> > of the radial around the nail, tighten the wire so it is straight with
> > no loops and insert the nail into the dirt. Do this along the length of
> > the radial. Typically I do it about every 10 to 15 feet. In a couple of
> > days the grass grows and the wire is so low (deeply embedded) in the
> > grass that mowing will not be an issue. The entire radial system need
> > not be done at one time and it is easy to add radials if you wish. HINT
> > - get a grandchild to help, or a neighborhood youngster or a person
> > working toward their license or one of the younger club members or .
> > anyone but yourself. Remember however to compensate them for their time
> > and effort!
> >
> > Tom, WB2KLD
>
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Dave Fugleberg]

This discussion reminded me of a question that I’ve often wondered about
but have never asked.
I have read that when laying out radials on or under the ground, one should
be careful to ensure that they radiate out from a central point without
ever crossing one another.

I have also read about this idea of using galvanized mesh in place of a
traditional radial field. In a mesh, the conductors not only cross, but are
bonded together at every crossing.

So, is there actually an issue if a couple radials happen to cross each
other?

Not that one would do so on purpose, but when adding radials to a system
where the existing ones are no longer visible, it could easily happen…

Curious minds want to know.


On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 2:55 PM Jim Brown  wrote:

> On 1/16/2022 12:19 PM, Mike Markowski wrote:
> > A construction site had left over galvanized mesh rolls that I bought at
> > great discount.  I unrolled them symmetrically about my then soon-to-be
> > installed vertical.  Easier than individual for lazy hams like me:-)  and
> > 2nd qso at 100W from Pennsylvania was Cambodia!  That qso made my day and
> > then some.
>
> Rob Sherwood, KC0B, published on this in the May 1977 edition of "Ham
> Radio," and I included his ideas in this talk.
>
> http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[jerry]

Well,

   The concrete pad had to go in, for other reasons.  Specifically, that 
solar
field saves me thousands of dollars per year in natural gas heating for 
the swimming pool.


   I would have been a fool not to put that wire in it, while the forms 
were

open.

   By "work" I mean that the bands sound lively - people hear me and 
give me similar reports to what I give them.  Can't put it any more 
precise than that - and hams are often polite :).


   The concrete pad is roughly oriented north-south.  It's on the west 
side of a hill.  It works really well to the southwest - LA, south 
pacific, Japan - as one
would expect.  It actually works better to the west than I thought it 
would - being that the top of the hill is higher than the top of the 
antenna... and yes, I do know most of the radiation is from the 
high-current part near the bottom.


  I suspect that not having radials to the East causes the radiation 
pattern to be
higher than it might otherwise be...which might be just what it needs to 
hop over that hill.


  Still, it might be fun to try laying out some radials and see if it 
makes a difference.  Maybe with some sort of remote controlled switch to 
connect and disconnect them for A-B comparison :).


   - Jerry KF6VB











On 2022-01-16 10:41, Jim Brown wrote:

On 1/16/2022 10:21 AM, jerry wrote:

Have you actually tried one?  Mine seems to work.


Define "work." N6BT famously said many years ago that everything
"works" by quickly working all continents on a light bulb.

I was ready to put

out radials
also, but doesn't seem to be necessary.


The earth is a big resistor. A connection to it does NOT make a
transmit antenna work better -- indeed, using earth as a return adds a
resistor in series with the antenna that burns TX power, making our
signal weaker! Radials serve as both a counterpoise -- a low
resistance return for antenna current -- AND to shield the antenna's
field from the lossy earth beneath it, also minimizing the loss of TX
power.

There's a conceptual discussion of this in slides for a talk I've done
at Pacificon, Visalia, and to several large clubs.

http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf

73, Jim K9YC





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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Jim Brown]

On 1/16/2022 12:19 PM, Mike Markowski wrote:

A construction site had left over galvanized mesh rolls that I bought at
great discount.  I unrolled them symmetrically about my then soon-to-be
installed vertical.  Easier than individual for lazy hams like me:-)  and
2nd qso at 100W from Pennsylvania was Cambodia!  That qso made my day and
then some.


Rob Sherwood, KC0B, published on this in the May 1977 edition of "Ham 
Radio," and I included his ideas in this talk.


http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Bob McGraw]

I made a handful of staples using some scrap solid wire.  #10, #12, #14 
works great and no need to remove the insulation.   Make them about 4" 
long per side, and place them over the radial, pushing them into the 
ground.  I agree, cut the grass short, pull the radial tight and "staple 
it to the ground".


I don't care for nails, or the likely hood of such,  in my lawn tractor 
tires.


73

Bob, K4TAX



On 1/16/2022 11:40 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 11:20:11 -0500
From: Tom & Barb Valosin
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials
Message-ID:<8d6b4b1b-cd91-59ba-c485-0f49b0d5a...@midtel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Now in my mid seventies I have embraced the idea of conservation of
energy. Digging in radials does not interest me. Likewise, catching them
in lawn equipment is also a PIA. So, here is what I have done and it has
worked well. I trim the grass.? Then I use a length of string and
stretch it out along the path of the future radial. Next I take a
"weed-wacker" and shorten the grass a bit more. Now I use any old
available can of spray paint and spray a few marks along the length of
the string. Remember to roll up the string now - no longer needed. Then
I take my radial wire, make the connection at the antenna base and
stretch the wire out along the marked path. Depending of the
levelness/evenness of the surface I then take a nail and make one wrap
of the radial around the nail, tighten the wire so it is straight with
no loops and insert the nail into the dirt. Do this along the length of
the radial. Typically I do it about every 10 to 15 feet. In a couple of
days the grass grows and the wire is so low (deeply embedded) in the
grass that mowing will not be an issue. The entire radial system need
not be done at one time and it is easy to add radials if you wish. HINT
- get a grandchild to help, or a neighborhood youngster or a person
working toward their license or one of the younger club members or .
anyone but yourself. Remember however to compensate them for their time
and effort!

Tom, WB2KLD


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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Mike Markowski]

A construction site had left over galvanized mesh rolls that I bought at
great discount.  I unrolled them symmetrically about my then soon-to-be
installed vertical.  Easier than individual for lazy hams like me :-) and
2nd qso at 100W from Pennsylvania was Cambodia!  That qso made my day and
then some.

73,
Mike ab3ap

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11:22 AM Tom & Barb Valosin 
wrote:

> ...Digging in radials does not interest me.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Fred Jensen]

Indeed! and I've seen Tom Shiller's presentation of his "Illuminator."  
My HOA antenna at home is a 41 m end-fed wire on the top of a 2 m high 
wooden fence.  It "works" surprisingly well considering what we all know 
about antennas.  It also "works" for the HOA.  Tom even came up with a 
3-lamp "phased V-array" that also "worked" although I doubt that it 
"worked" much better than the single-lamp model that gave him WAC.


Ufer grounds were developed by Herbert Ufer [you thought it was an 
acronym? [:=)] during WW2 for lightning protection for ammunition and 
bomb storage vaults in S. AZ.  He found that encasing the earth 
electrode in concrete provided better conductivity in the bone dry soil 
than just a rod driven in. They are safety grounds.  I'm pretty sure 
they aren't very effective for antennas and RF however.


Radials follow the diminishing returns rule:  None will "work" although 
getting RF current into the antenna may be hard with none.  Going to 1 
will make a BIG difference, and 2 a not-as-big difference ... the 
contribution of the 2nd isn't as big as the 1st.  Likewise for 3, 4, and 
beyond.  Most AM broadcast stations with bottom-fed ungrounded monopoles 
use a radial field with as many as 1 per degree.  Or, you can follow the 
plan of KFBK [1530 kHz] in Sacramento CA and erect a Franklin antenna in 
a rice field.  No radials required and it's sometimes referred to as 
"The Flame Thrower of the S. Sacramento Valley."


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Jim Brown wrote on 1/16/2022 10:41 AM:

On 1/16/2022 10:21 AM, jerry wrote:
Have you actually tried one?  Mine seems to work. 


Define "work." N6BT famously said many years ago that everything 
"works" by quickly working all continents on a light bulb.


I was ready to put

out radials
also, but doesn't seem to be necessary.


The earth is a big resistor. A connection to it does NOT make a 
transmit antenna work better -- indeed, using earth as a return adds a 
resistor in series with the antenna that burns TX power, making our 
signal weaker! Radials serve as both a counterpoise -- a low 
resistance return for antenna current -- AND to shield the antenna's 
field from the lossy earth beneath it, also minimizing the loss of TX 
power.


There's a conceptual discussion of this in slides for a talk I've done 
at Pacificon, Visalia, and to several large clubs.


http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf

73, Jim K9YC





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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Jim Brown]

On 1/16/2022 10:21 AM, jerry wrote:
Have you actually tried one?  Mine seems to work.  


Define "work." N6BT famously said many years ago that everything "works" 
by quickly working all continents on a light bulb.


I was ready to put

out radials
also, but doesn't seem to be necessary.


The earth is a big resistor. A connection to it does NOT make a transmit 
antenna work better -- indeed, using earth as a return adds a resistor 
in series with the antenna that burns TX power, making our signal 
weaker! Radials serve as both a counterpoise -- a low resistance return 
for antenna current -- AND to shield the antenna's field from the lossy 
earth beneath it, also minimizing the loss of TX power.


There's a conceptual discussion of this in slides for a talk I've done 
at Pacificon, Visalia, and to several large clubs.


http://k9yc.com/160MPacificon.pdf

73, Jim K9YC





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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[David Gilbert]

"Seems to work".  Sorry, but I don't know what that means. Everything 
works to some degree or other, and unless you are able to do A vs B 
testing, or can take reasonably accurate field strength measurements, 
you don't know what you actually have any more than I know what you have.


I do know that what you have is the equivalent of a single wide buried 
radial.  The whole idea of radials is to act as a near field current 
return to avoid ground losses, and your setup does that in one direction 
only.


I don't mean to make this more than it is, but a Ufer ground is a low 
impedance path for lightning to reduce the chance for lightning to take 
other unwanted paths (such as through equipment or people), and radials 
around a vertical antenna act as an RF shield (or at least alternative) 
to reduce near field ground current return losses.  As I said, they are 
not the same thing.


Dave   AB7E



On 1/16/2022 11:21 AM, jerry wrote:

Hi Dave,


Have you actually tried one?  Mine seems to work.  I was ready to put 
out radials

also, but doesn't seem to be necessary.

 - Jerry KF6VB


On 2022-01-16 10:07, David Gilbert wrote:

That post illustrates the mistake in thinking that a lightning ground
(Ufer) is the same as an RF shield (radials) to avoid ground return
losses.  They are NOT the same and they perform completely different
functions.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 1/16/2022 9:35 AM, jerry wrote:

All,

   I had a similar situation.  The 4BTV was mounted on a pole 
pounded into
my wildland hill behind the house.  It had about 50 radials, and 
every year
when we whacked the weeds, one or two of the radials would get 
tangled in the

whacker.

   In the fullness of time, we put in a swimming pool a bit down the 
hill, and
the antenna site became a solar heating field for the pool. The 
concrete guy

poured a 70' by 10' pad for the solar heating array.

   After he built the forms, I came out with a roll of 8AWG copper 
wire.  I
laid 80 feet of it along the rebar.  I pounded my pipe into the 
earth and had

the wire come out next to it.

   He poured the concrete, and I had an "Ufer" ground.  I installed 
a brand new
6BTV, and DX Engineering's tilt base on the pole.  No radials. Works 
great!
I carefully tuned it, and then installed an MFJ998RT KW autotuner at 
the base of the antenna.


  - Jerry KF6VB


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On 2022-01-16 10:07, David Gilbert wrote:

That post illustrates the mistake in thinking that a lightning ground
(Ufer) is the same as an RF shield (radials) to avoid ground return
losses.  They are NOT the same and they perform completely different
functions.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 1/16/2022 9:35 AM, jerry wrote:

All,

   I had a similar situation.  The 4BTV was mounted on a pole 
pounded into
my wildland hill behind the house.  It had about 50 radials, and 
every year
when we whacked the weeds, one or two of the radials would get 
tangled in the

whacker.

   In the fullness of time, we put in a swimming pool a bit down the 
hill, and
the antenna site became a solar heating field for the pool. The 
concrete guy

poured a 70' by 10' pad for the solar heating array.

   After he built the forms, I came out with a roll of 8AWG copper 
wire.  I
laid 80 feet of it along the rebar.  I pounded my pipe into the 
earth and had

the wire come out next to it.

   He poured the concrete, and I had an "Ufer" ground.  I installed 
a brand new
6BTV, and DX Engineering's tilt base on the pole.  No radials. Works 
great!
I carefully tuned it, and then installed an MFJ998RT KW autotuner at 
the base of the antenna.


  - Jerry KF6VB


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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[jerry]

Hi Dave,


Have you actually tried one?  Mine seems to work.  I was ready to put 
out radials

also, but doesn't seem to be necessary.

 - Jerry KF6VB


On 2022-01-16 10:07, David Gilbert wrote:

That post illustrates the mistake in thinking that a lightning ground
(Ufer) is the same as an RF shield (radials) to avoid ground return
losses.  They are NOT the same and they perform completely different
functions.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 1/16/2022 9:35 AM, jerry wrote:

All,

   I had a similar situation.  The 4BTV was mounted on a pole pounded 
into
my wildland hill behind the house.  It had about 50 radials, and every 
year
when we whacked the weeds, one or two of the radials would get tangled 
in the

whacker.

   In the fullness of time, we put in a swimming pool a bit down the 
hill, and
the antenna site became a solar heating field for the pool.  The 
concrete guy

poured a 70' by 10' pad for the solar heating array.

   After he built the forms, I came out with a roll of 8AWG copper 
wire.  I
laid 80 feet of it along the rebar.  I pounded my pipe into the earth 
and had

the wire come out next to it.

   He poured the concrete, and I had an "Ufer" ground.  I installed a 
brand new
6BTV, and DX Engineering's tilt base on the pole.  No radials. Works 
great!
I carefully tuned it, and then installed an MFJ998RT KW autotuner at 
the base of the antenna.


  - Jerry KF6VB


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On 2022-01-16 10:07, David Gilbert wrote:

That post illustrates the mistake in thinking that a lightning ground
(Ufer) is the same as an RF shield (radials) to avoid ground return
losses.  They are NOT the same and they perform completely different
functions.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 1/16/2022 9:35 AM, jerry wrote:

All,

   I had a similar situation.  The 4BTV was mounted on a pole pounded 
into
my wildland hill behind the house.  It had about 50 radials, and every 
year
when we whacked the weeds, one or two of the radials would get tangled 
in the

whacker.

   In the fullness of time, we put in a swimming pool a bit down the 
hill, and
the antenna site became a solar heating field for the pool.  The 
concrete guy

poured a 70' by 10' pad for the solar heating array.

   After he built the forms, I came out with a roll of 8AWG copper 
wire.  I
laid 80 feet of it along the rebar.  I pounded my pipe into the earth 
and had

the wire come out next to it.

   He poured the concrete, and I had an "Ufer" ground.  I installed a 
brand new
6BTV, and DX Engineering's tilt base on the pole.  No radials. Works 
great!
I carefully tuned it, and then installed an MFJ998RT KW autotuner at 
the base of the antenna.


  - Jerry KF6VB


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Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[David Gilbert]

That post illustrates the mistake in thinking that a lightning ground 
(Ufer) is the same as an RF shield (radials) to avoid ground return 
losses.  They are NOT the same and they perform completely different 
functions.


73,
Dave   AB7E


On 1/16/2022 9:35 AM, jerry wrote:

All,

   I had a similar situation.  The 4BTV was mounted on a pole pounded 
into
my wildland hill behind the house.  It had about 50 radials, and every 
year
when we whacked the weeds, one or two of the radials would get tangled 
in the

whacker.

   In the fullness of time, we put in a swimming pool a bit down the 
hill, and
the antenna site became a solar heating field for the pool.  The 
concrete guy

poured a 70' by 10' pad for the solar heating array.

   After he built the forms, I came out with a roll of 8AWG copper 
wire.  I
laid 80 feet of it along the rebar.  I pounded my pipe into the earth 
and had

the wire come out next to it.

   He poured the concrete, and I had an "Ufer" ground.  I installed a 
brand new
6BTV, and DX Engineering's tilt base on the pole.  No radials. Works 
great!
I carefully tuned it, and then installed an MFJ998RT KW autotuner at 
the base of the antenna.


  - Jerry KF6VB


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com 

Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[jerry]

All,

   I had a similar situation.  The 4BTV was mounted on a pole pounded 
into
my wildland hill behind the house.  It had about 50 radials, and every 
year
when we whacked the weeds, one or two of the radials would get tangled 
in the

whacker.

   In the fullness of time, we put in a swimming pool a bit down the 
hill, and
the antenna site became a solar heating field for the pool.  The 
concrete guy

poured a 70' by 10' pad for the solar heating array.

   After he built the forms, I came out with a roll of 8AWG copper wire. 
 I
laid 80 feet of it along the rebar.  I pounded my pipe into the earth 
and had

the wire come out next to it.

   He poured the concrete, and I had an "Ufer" ground.  I installed a 
brand new
6BTV, and DX Engineering's tilt base on the pole.  No radials.  Works 
great!
I carefully tuned it, and then installed an MFJ998RT KW autotuner at the 
base of the antenna.


  - Jerry KF6VB


On 2022-01-16 08:20, Tom & Barb Valosin wrote:

Now in my mid seventies I have embraced the idea of conservation of
energy. Digging in radials does not interest me. Likewise, catching
them in lawn equipment is also a PIA. So, here is what I have done and
it has worked well. I trim the grass.  Then I use a length of string
and stretch it out along the path of the future radial. Next I take a
"weed-wacker" and shorten the grass a bit more. Now I use any old
available can of spray paint and spray a few marks along the length of
the string. Remember to roll up the string now - no longer needed.
Then I take my radial wire, make the connection at the antenna base
and stretch the wire out along the marked path. Depending of the
levelness/evenness of the surface I then take a nail and make one wrap
of the radial around the nail, tighten the wire so it is straight with
no loops and insert the nail into the dirt. Do this along the length
of the radial. Typically I do it about every 10 to 15 feet. In a
couple of days the grass grows and the wire is so low (deeply
embedded) in the grass that mowing will not be an issue. The entire
radial system need not be done at one time and it is easy to add
radials if you wish. HINT - get a grandchild to help, or a
neighborhood youngster or a person working toward their license or one
of the younger club members or . anyone but yourself. Remember
however to compensate them for their time and effort!

Tom, WB2KLD

On 1/16/2022 9:01 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Send Elecraft mailing list submissions to
elecraft@mailman.qth.net

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Elecraft digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Loss in window line (Paul Gordon N6LL)
2. Re: [OT] Loss in window line [OPINION] [LONG] (Ed Cole)
3. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Steve Masticola)
4. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Dan Brown)
5. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Michael Walker)
6. K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (rikoski)
7. K3 Utility vs macOS Monterey? (Don Putnick)
8. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave)
9. Re: K3 Utility vs macOS Monterey? (Bayard Coolidge, N1HO)
   10. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Linda M)
   11. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Linda M)
   12.  New wattmeter plans? (Chuck Guenther)
   13. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Ronnie Hull)
   14. Elecraft KPA500 sn 1910 dead. (Sam Sargent)
   15. Re: K2 Menu and Tune Buttons (Don Wilhelm)
   16. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (KE8G)
   17. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave (NK7Z))
   18. Elecraft CW Net Announcement (kevin)
   19. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (KE8G)
   20. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave (NK7Z))
   21. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Steve Masticola)
   22. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (j...@kk9a.com)
   23. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave (NK7Z))


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:07:54 -0800
From: Paul Gordon N6LL 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Loss in window line
Message-ID: <70f2854a-8d7b-b9ef-d21f-f3890dfc0...@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Waxing about old ham lore, a "Strays" item on page 132 of the December
1946 QST has W6KA repeating advice from W3LPY and W1MJH that
"Simonizing" 300 ohm line (or using floor wax) will "eliminate the
impedance change during rainy weather."

Paul, N6LL - current Trustee of W6KA

p.s.- That would be the impedance presented to the transmitter which
changes, not the characteristic impedance of the line.

On 1/14/2022 1:22 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
Based on my measurements and method I used to 

Re: [Elecraft] On ground - in ground radials

[Tom & Barb Valosin]

Now in my mid seventies I have embraced the idea of conservation of 
energy. Digging in radials does not interest me. Likewise, catching them 
in lawn equipment is also a PIA. So, here is what I have done and it has 
worked well. I trim the grass.  Then I use a length of string and 
stretch it out along the path of the future radial. Next I take a 
"weed-wacker" and shorten the grass a bit more. Now I use any old 
available can of spray paint and spray a few marks along the length of 
the string. Remember to roll up the string now - no longer needed. Then 
I take my radial wire, make the connection at the antenna base and 
stretch the wire out along the marked path. Depending of the 
levelness/evenness of the surface I then take a nail and make one wrap 
of the radial around the nail, tighten the wire so it is straight with 
no loops and insert the nail into the dirt. Do this along the length of 
the radial. Typically I do it about every 10 to 15 feet. In a couple of 
days the grass grows and the wire is so low (deeply embedded) in the 
grass that mowing will not be an issue. The entire radial system need 
not be done at one time and it is easy to add radials if you wish. HINT 
- get a grandchild to help, or a neighborhood youngster or a person 
working toward their license or one of the younger club members or . 
anyone but yourself. Remember however to compensate them for their time 
and effort!


Tom, WB2KLD

On 1/16/2022 9:01 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Send Elecraft mailing list submissions to
elecraft@mailman.qth.net

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net

You can reach the person managing the list at
elecraft-ow...@mailman.qth.net

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Elecraft digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Loss in window line (Paul Gordon N6LL)
2. Re: [OT] Loss in window line [OPINION] [LONG] (Ed Cole)
3. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Steve Masticola)
4. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Dan Brown)
5. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Michael Walker)
6. K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (rikoski)
7. K3 Utility vs macOS Monterey? (Don Putnick)
8. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave)
9. Re: K3 Utility vs macOS Monterey? (Bayard Coolidge, N1HO)
   10. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Linda M)
   11. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Linda M)
   12.  New wattmeter plans? (Chuck Guenther)
   13. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Ronnie Hull)
   14. Elecraft KPA500 sn 1910 dead. (Sam Sargent)
   15. Re: K2 Menu and Tune Buttons (Don Wilhelm)
   16. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (KE8G)
   17. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave (NK7Z))
   18. Elecraft CW Net Announcement (kevin)
   19. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (KE8G)
   20. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave (NK7Z))
   21. Re: New wattmeter plans? (Steve Masticola)
   22. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (j...@kk9a.com)
   23. Re: K Line: Signal loss in a QSO (Dave (NK7Z))


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:07:54 -0800
From: Paul Gordon N6LL 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Loss in window line
Message-ID: <70f2854a-8d7b-b9ef-d21f-f3890dfc0...@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Waxing about old ham lore, a "Strays" item on page 132 of the December
1946 QST has W6KA repeating advice from W3LPY and W1MJH that
"Simonizing" 300 ohm line (or using floor wax) will "eliminate the
impedance change during rainy weather."

Paul, N6LL - current Trustee of W6KA

p.s.- That would be the impedance presented to the transmitter which
changes, not the characteristic impedance of the line.

On 1/14/2022 1:22 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Based on my measurements and method I used to measure 100 ft of window
line, the loss in the line from dry to wet is frankly nil. However,
the wet line does show a velocity factory change, in effect an
electrical change in line length, and thus when connected to an
antenna, will have a small effect on the impedance at the station end
of the line.

I really think and believe many comments and opinions regarding window
line, are more "old ham lore" not based on true and complete facts.

73

Bob, K4TAX


--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:09:39 -0900
From: Ed Cole 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Loss in window line [OPINION] [LONG]
Message-ID: <39843952-a667-27e3-e7d8-b3b1673c4...@acsalaska.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Good discussion as I was thinking to use window line in my new 630m -
40m antenna.

Maybe revert to running parallel lines spaced 1-foot with spreaders only
at top and bottom of 40-foot verti