RE: [Elecraft] TS870
Not sure its just the finals that are responsible, but maybe the analog discrete low gain stuff in the rest of the radio? I do notice some of the modern radios have a class A setting for the output stages, to clean things up? At $12,000.00 I am not going to get one and find out... Brett N2DTS As far as amateur communications go I think the quality of the transmitted audio makes more difference than the quality of the receiver. Some of the cleanest sounding SSB I have ever heard came from the Kenwood TS-520 / TS-820 / TS-830 transceivers with their tube finals. Then solid state PAs came along. I doubt if even the K3 output stages will have better linearity and IMD than a pair of 6146Bs in push-pull, but Elecraft is always capable of surprising us. ;) -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] TS870
TS870 has best RX audio I ever heard. This is often neglected area in RX design, but stays in line from antenna to our brains. My experience of many RX building is to keep amplifier naturally linear without almost any feedback. Pass-band may be 20Hz30kHz. I hope K3 has the same quality in audio part. TS870 can be modified with Inrad filters, but the real problem is still broad up-conversion band. Even the canadian gain-modification is just a partial help. To replace 0603 and 0805 SMD resistors was just on the limit for my eyes. TS870 has a genuine RF-clipper with real monitoring. But K3 seems to have these and much more. I wait for mine and look forward for manual published here. Benny OH9NB ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] TS870
Sadly, the 870 was Kenwood's last real ham radio effort. And it came up short with anyone who had another good rig to compare it to like the MP, etc. Too bad Kenwood is now out of the high end rig game The other 2 from JA soon to follow? Charles Harpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ See what youre getting into before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] TS870
I don't know anything about the 870, but most other modern rigs really seem to fall down in the audio department. The ratings typically are 2.5 watts or less at 10% distortion, no frequency response range or noise figures... But even using the line out into a hifi amp and good speaker does not improve things much, as a lot of noise and distortion is in earlier stages. Add in the off frequency overload and you have a really poor sounding radio. You can get an audio chip that puts out 20 watts times 2 and runs off 12 volts, with close to true hifi specs for about $3.00 (car radio amps). I just cant understand how they can make boxes that cost $5000.00 and up with every feature you can think of and put in a 1.5 watt 10% distortion amp and a 2 inch no fi speaker! Brett N2DTS TS870 has best RX audio I ever heard. This is often neglected area in RX design, but stays in line from antenna to our brains. My experience of many RX building is to keep amplifier naturally linear without almost any feedback. Pass-band may be 20Hz30kHz. I hope K3 has the same quality in audio part. TS870 can be modified with Inrad filters, but the real problem is still broad up-conversion band. Even the canadian gain-modification is just a partial help. To replace 0603 and 0805 SMD resistors was just on the limit for my eyes. TS870 has a genuine RF-clipper with real monitoring. But K3 seems to have these and much more. I wait for mine and look forward for manual published here. Benny OH9NB ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
Agreed - as I get older I need more audio - my IC-7800 was very good in this department, hoping the K3 will be! Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Brett gazdzinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] The ratings typically are 2.5 watts or less at 10% distortion, no frequency response range or noise figures... ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] TS870
I looked up the specs on the TS-870, and its 1.5 watts of audio out at 10% distortion. People say it sounds great?? Brett N2DTS ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
I plan to put an external amplifier and speaker on my K3. The K2 was designed with audio 'just strong enough' so that the the receiver current drain would be low, and the K3 does not draw a huge amount of receive current either - which tells me that there is not a BIG audio amplifier in it either - but it will be adequate, the bare K2 *is* adequate in most situations, just not powerful and not 'hi-fi'. To expect great sound from a tiny speaker and an LM380 amplifier is simply unrealistic IMHO. I run all my shack receivers into an external audio amplifier. I have a dedicated 'communications quality' amplifier/speaker combination with a homebrew audio mixer as the front end. There is a good quality stereo system here in the shack/office that I can feed the receivers into if I want the best fidelity audio, but that is not usually the case for ham receivers. Bottom line is that I have never encountered a modern ham receiver with an internal speaker that has what I would call good audio - that went away when the big vacuum tube behemoths with their big external speakers and big transformers went out of production, so I provide my own. 73, Don W3FPR Simon Brown (HB9DRV) wrote: Agreed - as I get older I need more audio - my IC-7800 was very good in this department, hoping the K3 will be! Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Brett gazdzinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] The ratings typically are 2.5 watts or less at 10% distortion, no frequency response range or noise figures... ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] TS870
I do the exact same thing, I use an old Marantz amplifier into a big floor standing hifi speaker. The Marantz has bass, mid and treble controls, plus low and high filters, which allows me to select any sort of audio bandpass I want. I can select various receivers and have one speaker in the shack, plus the tape out if I want to record something. My K2 audio sounds fine on cw. Not a huge amount of background hiss from the chips and there seems to be plenty for me. I don't have the ssb board, so cant say how it sounds on ssb, but that is somewhat pointless to me anyway. Funny, but there are good sounding modern swl receivers, with nice speakers, adequate audio power, bass and treble controls, etc. The very expensive ham gear has general coverage, but what for? Maybe the manufacturers limit the fidelity to reduce the noise, but that should/could be an adjustable option... Brett N2DTS I plan to put an external amplifier and speaker on my K3. The K2 was designed with audio 'just strong enough' so that the the receiver current drain would be low, and the K3 does not draw a huge amount of receive current either - which tells me that there is not a BIG audio amplifier in it either - but it will be adequate, the bare K2 *is* adequate in most situations, just not powerful and not 'hi-fi'. To expect great sound from a tiny speaker and an LM380 amplifier is simply unrealistic IMHO. I run all my shack receivers into an external audio amplifier. I have a dedicated 'communications quality' amplifier/speaker combination with a homebrew audio mixer as the front end. There is a good quality stereo system here in the shack/office that I can feed the receivers into if I want the best fidelity audio, but that is not usually the case for ham receivers. Bottom line is that I have never encountered a modern ham receiver with an internal speaker that has what I would call good audio - that went away when the big vacuum tube behemoths with their big external speakers and big transformers went out of production, so I provide my own. 73, Don W3FPR ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
Hello Don, I have finished my K2 a couple of weeks ago and did not expect much from the speaker. One can be wrong. The audio from the speaker is really excellent, at least on CW. I can't follow the remarks on low audio volume, because my unit has ample of it. Over the years I have used a LM380 in all my home made projects and been very pleased with the results. On an other note, I have also found that for weak signal work my brain seems to work best with a low audio volume. Thus a quiet room has proved to be more important than strong audio. When the going gets tough I even switch off my quiet PC. 73, Roelof, pa0rdt -- Mijn Postvak In wordt beschermd door SPAMfighter. 253 spam-mails zijn er tot op heden geblokkeerd. Download de gratis SPAMfighter via deze link: http://www.spamfighter.com/lnl ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
Roelof, Your experience substantiates my idea that everyone's ears and perceptions are a bit different. I did say the K2 is adequate, and that small speaker is good and very efficient, but not really to my liking. IMHO, as a society, we may declining rapidly in audio perception when I hear advertising statements which hint that MP3 recordings are better quality than CD recordings! We have finally achieved good quality digital preservation of sound waves, and now the iPod crowd and its popularity may be diminishing the easy availability of high quality recordings for the consumer - that trend concerns me. 73, Don W3FPR Roelof Bakker wrote: Hello Don, I have finished my K2 a couple of weeks ago and did not expect much from the speaker. One can be wrong. The audio from the speaker is really excellent, at least on CW. I can't follow the remarks on low audio volume, because my unit has ample of it. Over the years I have used a LM380 in all my home made projects and been very pleased with the results. On an other note, I have also found that for weak signal work my brain seems to work best with a low audio volume. Thus a quiet room has proved to be more important than strong audio. When the going gets tough I even switch off my quiet PC. 73, Roelof, pa0rdt ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
When you listen to the music most people listen to, the quality hardly matters. :) However, there are lossless audio compression formats, and formats that can support higher bit-rates (and therefore presumably higher fidelity) than standard CDs, so I guess the advertising is true. It's just that most people are happy to trade quality for small file size. As far as amateur communications go I think the quality of the transmitted audio makes more difference than the quality of the receiver. Some of the cleanest sounding SSB I have ever heard came from the Kenwood TS-520 / TS-820 / TS-830 transceivers with their tube finals. Then solid state PAs came along. I doubt if even the K3 output stages will have better linearity and IMD than a pair of 6146Bs in push-pull, but Elecraft is always capable of surprising us. ;) -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com On 8/24/07, Don Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, as a society, we may declining rapidly in audio perception when I hear advertising statements which hint that MP3 recordings are better quality than CD recordings! We have finally achieved good quality digital preservation of sound waves, and now the iPod crowd and its popularity may be diminishing the easy availability of high quality recordings for the consumer - that trend concerns me. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
It would be nice if the K3 has a perfectly designed ALC which results in all IMD products being down 40 db at 5khz and 80db down at 20khz. For the needs of VHF contesting IMD products should ideally be down 100 db down at 20 khz. However expecting this level of IMD performance from any modern ham radio is truly a dream. However older radios like the TS520S and TS830s could achieve or come close to this level of performance. I don't know if the K3 has a perfectly designed ALC, or if it has a some way of controlling the drive level without activating the ALC like the FT1000D and IC7800 radios. A drive control is a great way of driving the PA even when the ALC has a tendency too overshoot which causes much of the horrendous IMD that we hear so much of on the bands. Unfortunately 2 tone numbers don't tell us much about how the transmitter performs under real world voice conditions. Lets hope that the K3 has got it right. Craig VK3HE --- Julian G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you listen to the music most people listen to, the quality hardly matters. :) However, there are lossless audio compression formats, and formats that can support higher bit-rates (and therefore presumably higher fidelity) than standard CDs, so I guess the advertising is true. It's just that most people are happy to trade quality for small file size. As far as amateur communications go I think the quality of the transmitted audio makes more difference than the quality of the receiver. Some of the cleanest sounding SSB I have ever heard came from the Kenwood TS-520 / TS-820 / TS-830 transceivers with their tube finals. Then solid state PAs came along. I doubt if even the K3 output stages will have better linearity and IMD than a pair of 6146Bs in push-pull, but Elecraft is always capable of surprising us. ;) -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com On 8/24/07, Don Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, as a society, we may declining rapidly in audio perception when I hear advertising statements which hint that MP3 recordings are better quality than CD recordings! We have finally achieved good quality digital preservation of sound waves, and now the iPod crowd and its popularity may be diminishing the easy availability of high quality recordings for the consumer - that trend concerns me. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] TS870
Good sounding speakers need good cabinets - usually big enough to support the speaker and it's bass response. They used to sell matching speakers for this reason, but they didn't sell enough of them to justify the cost. In either case - headphones are superior but tiring and large speakers challenge the need for smaller stations, the cheap small speakers allowed portability and economy. Bottom line, just consider the cheapy a freeby and get the speaker in a box to go with the big rig. BTW ever try listening to an FT-100? Whew!! I like the K2 and it's good speaker even if the space is cramped. AL WA6VNN ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
