RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
Joe, W4TV wrote: This is key and should be enforced. Many years ago Bell Labs (and others) proved rather thoroughly that 2.4 to 2.6 KHz was more than adequately for "communications" purposes. Their tests were specifically in relation to "toll grade" audio for long distance telephony. The FCC rules specifically required a maximum bandwidth of 2.6 KHz on the US 60 meter channels. That should provide a strong example of what FCC and NTIA consider to be the "maximum bandwidth necessary" for single sideband operation in amateur allocations. -- Absolutely right Joe! But "communications" is only one part of the purpose for the Amateur service. Amateur Radio is basically an experimenters medium and, the "Amateur" part means that the experimentation is not necessarily with a stated purpose. The purpose for putting a signal on the air is whatever interests the individual that falls within the rules. That's why the rules are very, very broad. The idea is to allow the greatest possible range of activities on the bands. 60 meters is *not* a "Ham Band". They are non-Amateur frequencies controlled by a whole different set of rules. Amateurs are allowed to use those frequencies only if they comply with those rules. That does not suggest that those rules should apply to the Amateur bands. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
You meant to say "affect other modes" Joe, not effect. Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote: > > >> Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they >> need do is adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice. > > No, adjusting the EQ messes up digital modes. In addition, > additional bandwidth below 200 Hz makes the signal illegal > on 60 meters where the occupied bandwidth is specified at > 2800 Hz maximum. Good engineering practice calls for a > default transmitted audio spectrum of 200 Hz to 2800 Hz: > http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/faq-60.html > > If you want to act like a spoiled child and be a bandwidth > pig, use your EQ to mess up your own signal. Allow the others > to occupy 200 - 2800 Hz and be legal on 60 meters without any > need to screw around with the EQ and effect other modes. > > 73, > >... Joe, W4TV > > > > >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of n4lq >> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:14 PM >> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good >> >> >> Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they >> need do is >> adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice. >> >> Steve Ellington >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> - Original Message - >> From: "Mike Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:25 PM >> Subject: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good >> >> >> >I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra >> bandwidth in the >> > audio response in the K3. >> > >> > For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag >> chew net until I >> > could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that >> the K3 wouldn't >> > measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light. >> > >> > Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good >> dx performance >> > but >> > these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable >> > listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag >> chew when I >> > want >> > it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also. >> > >> > >> > >> > I wouldn't want it any other way. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Mike Scott >> > >> > AE6WA Tarzana, CA >> > >> > K3/100 SN508 >> > >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Elecraft mailing list >> > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> > >> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> > >> > >> > -- >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG. >> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release >> Date: 5/3/2008 >> > 11:22 AM >> > >> > >> >> ___ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17071544.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
In a message dated 5/5/08 5:14:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Many years ago Bell Labs > (and others) proved rather thoroughly that 2.4 to 2.6 KHz > was more than adequately for "communications" purposes. Their > tests were specifically in relation to "toll grade" audio for > long distance telephony. Which is *not* amateur radio communication! Things like QRM, QRN and selective fading are not usually encountered in landline telephones. Note also that despite the quality standards, people often have to repeat themselves on the telephone, spell out words and names, etc. > > The FCC rules specifically required a maximum bandwidth of 2.6 > KHz on the US 60 meter channels. That should provide a strong > example of what FCC and NTIA consider to be the "maximum > bandwidth necessary" for single sideband operation in amateur > allocations. No, they shouldn't. The 60 meter channels are shared with other services. Amateurs are secondary users there, and must conform to the primary user's standards. > > Most amateur transceivers use 2.4 KHz bandwidth filters for > SSB generation - even cascaded 2.4 KHz filters with an effective > bandwidth in the 2.2 KHz range. The default SSB transmit bandwidth > for the K3 should be 300 - 2900 Hz or 200 - 2800 Hz in order to > not be excessively wide and meet the FCC regulations for use on > the US 60 meter allocation. Agreed! But that's only on 60 meters. Should we stop using LSB because other services don't generally use it? Should we channelize our bands because that's what other services do? I say there's room for all. 73 de Jim, N2EY ** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod000301) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
More Bass on my fish stringer, is better. John k7up ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
> 'Information rate' is I suppose the let-out. Information rate is not a "let out" in analog voice. > I would have thought that the use of ESSB would come close to > breaking the rules on Emission Standards as imposed by some > regulators, e.g. FCC Amateur Rules section 97.307 which says > in part 'No amateur station transmission shall occupy more > bandwidth than necessary for the information rate and > emission type being transmitted, in accordance with good > amateur practice'. This is key and should be enforced. Many years ago Bell Labs (and others) proved rather thoroughly that 2.4 to 2.6 KHz was more than adequately for "communications" purposes. Their tests were specifically in relation to "toll grade" audio for long distance telephony. The FCC rules specifically required a maximum bandwidth of 2.6 KHz on the US 60 meter channels. That should provide a strong example of what FCC and NTIA consider to be the "maximum bandwidth necessary" for single sideband operation in amateur allocations. Most amateur transceivers use 2.4 KHz bandwidth filters for SSB generation - even cascaded 2.4 KHz filters with an effective bandwidth in the 2.2 KHz range. The default SSB transmit bandwidth for the K3 should be 300 - 2900 Hz or 200 - 2800 Hz in order to not be excessively wide and meet the FCC regulations for use on the US 60 meter allocation. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 2:37 PM > To: Elecraft Discussion List > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good > > > Ian J Maude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Good idea, give them 5kHz :-) > > > > Sorry, I could not resist! > > I would have thought that the use of ESSB would come close to > breaking the > rules on Emission Standards as imposed by some regulators, > e.g. FCC Amateur > Rules section 97.307 which says in part 'No amateur station > transmission > shall occupy more bandwidth than necessary for the > information rate and > emission type being transmitted, in accordance with good > amateur practice'. > 'Information rate' is I suppose the let-out. > > 73, > Geoff > GM4ESD > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
>I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the >audio response in the K3. >For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I >could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't >measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light. >Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance but >these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable >listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I want >it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also. >I wouldn't want it any other way. >Mike Scott >AE6WA Tarzana, CA >K3/100 SN508 - Hi Mike! I agree with you. I also like the more "full" audio and I really would hate to see the K3 restricted in hardware or software. Adding a SSB TX bandwidth menu for adjusting this to each users preferences would be fine: 2400 Hz : 300 - 2700 Hz 2600 Hz : 200 - 2800 Hz (default ?) 2800 Hz : 200 - 3000 Hz 3000 Hz : 100 - 3100 Hz (requires 6kHz IF-filter) 3500 Hz : 70 - 3570 Hz (requires 6kHz IF-filter) 4000 Hz : 50 - 4050 Hz (requires 6kHz IF-filter) One can also use a microphone with low cut (the Kenwood MC-90 is great and fits directly on the K3 without re-soldering the 8-pin connector). This one has a low cut with 2 positions, and it has a great audio response for SSB. It is a 250 ohm dynamic microphone with two replaceable microphone heads. For ragchew on a quiet band it is nice to have some more low end and bandwidth. Best regards LA4AMA Roar -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17053999.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
Ian J Maude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good idea, give them 5kHz :-) Sorry, I could not resist! I would have thought that the use of ESSB would come close to breaking the rules on Emission Standards as imposed by some regulators, e.g. FCC Amateur Rules section 97.307 which says in part 'No amateur station transmission shall occupy more bandwidth than necessary for the information rate and emission type being transmitted, in accordance with good amateur practice'. 'Information rate' is I suppose the let-out. 73, Geoff GM4ESD ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
> Most HF users want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required > for > communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned. Unfortunately, > certain special interest groups continue to drive the debate. Hi. There are also a lot of radio amateurs that are concerned about the fact that such restrictions in bandwidth will harm the experimenting part and freedom within amateur radio. Radio amateurs has always been experimenting with different microphones etc. trying to make it sound as good as possible. That is a part of what amateur radio is all about (for some). Implementing strict commercial bandwidth limitations within amateur radio is not a good idea. My view is that as long as we try to make our transmitted signals as "clean" and splatter-free as possible there should be no problems. When i tune across the bands I see a lot of distorted splatter stations on the spectrum scope on my IC-756pro3, especially on 20m. This is because a lot of radio amateurs use way too much microphone gain (high ALC-action) and/or compression/processing resulting in very wide occupied transmitter bandwidth. This is also consistent with the findings of SM5BSZ, Leif Asbrink. Check his articles here: http://www.nitehawk.com/sm5bsz/dynrange/alc.htm http://www.nabble.com/file/p17066871/russian%2Bstation%2Bsplatter%2B1.jpg wide splatter station on 20m My experience is that all these splatter stations are a lot bigger problem than if someone transmits with 3,0kHz or 4,0kHz in SSB. If one shall focus on bandwidth, one must go for the area where something should be done. Maybe a lot more education is needed for new radio amateurs (during licensing) regarding ALC-settings and checking transmitted signals on a spectrum scope to avoid splatter. Some improvements has been done in recent years since many radios now uses Digital Phase Shift Network modulation in SSB (DPSN). This also gives better opposite sideband suppression. The transmitted signals are more "brick wall" than on some older equiptment I think. Going from 2,8kHz to 4,0kHz TX bandwidth on the Omni VII does not create a very wide signal as long as it is clean and not distorted. Too much ALC-action will create splatter regardless of IF-filter bandwidth. http://www.nabble.com/file/p17066871/Omni%2BVII%2Bwith%2B4kHz.jpg the Omni VII with 4kHz SSB TX There are also facts like some radio amateurs have problems with hearing loss, cutting away the audio to a narrow range (200-2800Hz) will make it difficult to read for some people. The area between 100Hz and 4kHz are the most important for the human ear. This can be confirmed by several scientists working with speech intelligibility research : http://www.polycom.com/common/documents/whitepapers/effect_of_bandwidth_on_speech_intelligibility_2.pdf That is why I hope such bandwidth limitations within amateur radio never will be implemented. Best regards LA4AMA Roar -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17066871.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
On May 5, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote: I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here. Just different wavelengths of the same thing, Brian. Well, not quite. It doesn't get to be the same thing until AFTER the vibrational energy in the bonds is reemitted as photons. And while we are on the subject, remember: 1. You can't win; 2. you can't break even; 3. you can't even get out of the game. And if you are fast enough and in the right direction, you can shift either to the other, can't you? All the time. It is how I retain my equilibrium. Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such thing as analog. ;-) But are the little quanta-thingies particles or waves? Yes. Richard Feynman for President, Claude Shannon for Vice President. Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori School 9330 Sierra College Bl brian AT gbmontessori DOT com Roseville, CA 95661 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)+1.791.912.8170 (fax) PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
I don't think there is any doubt that Elecraft will not satisfy everybody until the transmit bandwidth is made fully customizable, just like the receiver. I understand that this is also Elecraft's intention. It would seem to make sense to have a CONFIG option that works just like the hi/lo cut for the receiver. With suitable limits for the settings there would be no need for a special ESSB "mode". In my book this ought to be relatively high on the priority list, just following straightening out the peak power issues. We already have a "world class" receiver here, but a little distance to go for a "world class" clean, powerful transmitter. Knut - AB2TC Lyle KK7P wrote: > >> I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here. > > Just different wavelengths of the same thing, Brian. And if you are > fast enough and in the right direction, you can shift either to the > other, can't you? > >> Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such >> thing as analog. ;-) > > But are the little quanta-thingies particles or waves? > > 73, > > Lyle KK7P > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17066411.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
I do not transmit AM or ESSB and I do not want it baned. Bob Serwy - N9RS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good -Original Message- From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Most HF users >want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for >communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned. On what information do you make this claim? 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here. Just different wavelengths of the same thing, Brian. And if you are fast enough and in the right direction, you can shift either to the other, can't you? Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such thing as analog. ;-) But are the little quanta-thingies particles or waves? 73, Lyle KK7P ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
On May 5, 2008, at 1:35 AM, G4ILO wrote: Mike Scott-7 wrote: I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the audio response in the K3. Because people use their radios in different ways. Some of us don't want to waste energy generating frequencies that add nothing to the ability to be heard when signals are weak. We don't use SSB to have "armchair copy" chats using hi-fi speakers. Nobody is asking that improved low frequency response should be taken away, just that it should be made an option. I'm not sure that the range of adjustment provided by TX EQ is great enough to restore the audio to the way it was before. I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here. There really is no problem. A SSB transmitter is just a linear translator that moves your baseband signal (audio in this case) up into the RF spectrum where you want it. When you mix to translate the signal somehow you need to get rid of the image. That means either filtering it out (filter-type SSB generator) or cancel it out (I/Q type SSB generator). Regardless, it doesn't matter whether you provide the bandwidth shaping at baseband or after your first mixer. DSP at baseband, DSP at the first IF, or a crystal filter at first IF or second IF doesn't matter. Any will solve the problem for you. I think Elecraft has already thought this out. Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such thing as analog. ;-) Claude Shannon for President. Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori School 9330 Sierra College Bl brian AT gbmontessori DOT com Roseville, CA 95661 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)+1.791.912.8170 (fax) PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
Darwin, Keith wrote: I think it makes a lot of sense (a LOT) to say narrow bandwidth signals at the low end of the band, wide signals at the top, mids in the middle. If someone wants to run ESSB at 5 KHz, that's fine, we'll allocate some space at the high end of the band so they can play & have fun. Good idea, give them 5kHz :-) Sorry, I could not resist! 73 Ian -- Ian J Maude, G0VGS SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster Member RSGB, GQRP K2 #4044 |K3 #455 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
-Original Message- From: Joe Subich, W4TV Most HF users want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned. -- Oh really? Well, I guess I'm not part of "most" then. I'm a CW op but I'm thrilled these other modes exist to add variety and spice to the hobby. I think it makes a lot of sense (a LOT) to say narrow bandwidth signals at the low end of the band, wide signals at the top, mids in the middle. If someone wants to run ESSB at 5 KHz, that's fine, we'll allocate some space at the high end of the band so they can play & have fun. - Keith N1AS - - K3 711 - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 12:00:51 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Most HF users >want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for >communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned. On what information do you make this claim? I suspect the truth is most amateur HF users don't care. We have freedom of religion, so you can use emacs or vi, wide bandwidth 'phone or narrow, RTTY or PSK31, Windows or Linux, etc. 73, doug ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
-Original Message- From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Most HF users want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned. On what information do you make this claim? 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
> 2) No one has come up with a proposal to ban it that hasn't > generated overwhelming opposition from the amateur community. Not true ... nobody has been able to make a proposal without being shouted down by a bunch of AM and ESSB zealots. Most HF users want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned. Unfortunately, certain special interest groups continue to drive the debate. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:32 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good > > > -Original Message- > From: S Sacco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >We're not broadcasters, we're communicators. > > That's true. But there are all sorts of communication! > > >That extra frequency response takes away from the spectrum available > >for our fellow Amateurs. > > Hold that thought > > >Don't even get me started on that "ESSB" stuff...and why is AM even > >LEGAL anymore, anyway? > > It's legal for two reasons: > > 1) A considerable number of hams like it and use it. > > 2) No one has come up with a proposal to ban it that hasn't generated > overwhelming opposition from the amateur community. > > "Ban AM" (particularly from the HF amateur bands) proposals > have popped > up from time to time since before I became a ham 40 years ago. Always > the same basic reason: AM is too wide. > > Now about "tak[ing] away from the spectrum available for our fellow > Amateurs" - if using the minimum amount of spectrum is the issue, why > are any modes wider than a few hundred Hz allowed? Ten CW or > PSK31 QSOs > can fit in the space of one SSB QSO, so why is SSB still allowed? > > 73 de Jim, N2EY > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
-Original Message- From: S Sacco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We're not broadcasters, we're communicators. That's true. But there are all sorts of communication! That extra frequency response takes away from the spectrum available for our fellow Amateurs. Hold that thought Don't even get me started on that "ESSB" stuff...and why is AM even LEGAL anymore, anyway? It's legal for two reasons: 1) A considerable number of hams like it and use it. 2) No one has come up with a proposal to ban it that hasn't generated overwhelming opposition from the amateur community. "Ban AM" (particularly from the HF amateur bands) proposals have popped up from time to time since before I became a ham 40 years ago. Always the same basic reason: AM is too wide. Now about "tak[ing] away from the spectrum available for our fellow Amateurs" - if using the minimum amount of spectrum is the issue, why are any modes wider than a few hundred Hz allowed? Ten CW or PSK31 QSOs can fit in the space of one SSB QSO, so why is SSB still allowed? 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
If I could make my K3 sound like its using a Heil HC4 cartridge I would be happy. The Heil HC4 audio sound is ESSB for me! Maybe at sometime in the future transmitting through the 2.1khz filter on SSB will be made possible. A further refinement of carrier point adjustment combined with an adjustable bandpass filter for the TX audio might be another option. It always strikes me how good commercial SSB operators on the marine and aeronautical HF bands sound. Their radios have a precise frequency roll off thats defined in their standards. This standardization produces good outcomes. Regardless of what brand of Aircraft headset you use, you always end up sounding the same on any aircraft HF radio. I think its an ideal that we hams should strive for, this plus clear communications quality audio. 73 Craig VK3HE --- G4ILO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Mike Scott-7 wrote: > > > > I am surprised to hear that people don't like the > extra bandwidth in the > > audio response in the K3. > > > Because people use their radios in different ways. > Some of us don't want to > waste energy generating frequencies that add nothing > to the ability to be > heard when signals are weak. We don't use SSB to > have "armchair copy" chats > using hi-fi speakers. > > Nobody is asking that improved low frequency > response should be taken away, > just that it should be made an option. I'm not sure > that the range of > adjustment provided by TX EQ is great enough to > restore the audio to the way > it was before. > > - > Julian, G4ILO K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392 > G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com > Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf > -- > View this message in context: > http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17053981.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
Mike Scott-7 wrote: > > I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the > audio response in the K3. > Because people use their radios in different ways. Some of us don't want to waste energy generating frequencies that add nothing to the ability to be heard when signals are weak. We don't use SSB to have "armchair copy" chats using hi-fi speakers. Nobody is asking that improved low frequency response should be taken away, just that it should be made an option. I'm not sure that the range of adjustment provided by TX EQ is great enough to restore the audio to the way it was before. - Julian, G4ILO K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392 G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17053981.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
> Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they > need do is adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice. No, adjusting the EQ messes up digital modes. In addition, additional bandwidth below 200 Hz makes the signal illegal on 60 meters where the occupied bandwidth is specified at 2800 Hz maximum. Good engineering practice calls for a default transmitted audio spectrum of 200 Hz to 2800 Hz: http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/faq-60.html If you want to act like a spoiled child and be a bandwidth pig, use your EQ to mess up your own signal. Allow the others to occupy 200 - 2800 Hz and be legal on 60 meters without any need to screw around with the EQ and effect other modes. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of n4lq > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:14 PM > To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good > > > Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they > need do is > adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice. > > Steve Ellington > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - Original Message - > From: "Mike Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:25 PM > Subject: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good > > > >I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra > bandwidth in the > > audio response in the K3. > > > > For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag > chew net until I > > could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that > the K3 wouldn't > > measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light. > > > > Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good > dx performance > > but > > these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable > > listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag > chew when I > > want > > it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't want it any other way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Scott > > > > AE6WA Tarzana, CA > > > > K3/100 SN508 > > > > > > > > ___ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release > Date: 5/3/2008 > > 11:22 AM > > > > > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they need do is adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice. Steve Ellington [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Mike Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:25 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the audio response in the K3. For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light. Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance but these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I want it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also. I wouldn't want it any other way. Mike Scott AE6WA Tarzana, CA K3/100 SN508 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 11:22 AM ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
We're not broadcasters, we're communicators. That extra frequency response takes away from the spectrum available for our fellow Amateurs. Don't even get me started on that "ESSB" stuff...and why is AM even LEGAL anymore, anyway? 73, Steve NN4X On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Mike Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the > audio response in the K3. > > For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I > could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't > measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light. > > Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance but > these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable > listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I want > it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also. > > > > I wouldn't want it any other way. > > > > > > Mike Scott > > AE6WA Tarzana, CA > > K3/100 SN508 > > > > ___ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
