Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Thanks Guy and Don. Don, I apologize for my muddled email. My fault, not yours. I will look closer at the system schematics so as to discover the flow of the process when I have some time.Thanks for pointing out some of the nuances from your perspectives. What I call punching holes in the audio is exactly that... If you have a short loud sound followed by a soft one, part of the soft one goes away due to the attack/decay ratio of whatever magic waveform modification process is at work in this rig. Analog monolithic compressors do this when the attack is set faster than the decay on short duration spikes. I have adapted to the way this process thinks. I was just curious to the way it was programmed to think and looking for a way, other than hang a AGC at the mic input, to manage the process better. However it works, it works quite well. But the smoother the waveform going in, the smoother the waveform is going out. May we live in interesting digital times indeed! -lu-w4lt- -Original Message- From: guyk...@gmail.com [mailto:guyk...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger K2AV Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:30 PM To: lrom...@ij.net Cc: d...@w3fpr.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus Hi Lu. Schematics for the K3 are downloadable PDF on the Elecraft website. Many questions can be answered right off just digging into the drawings. I find the ability in Adobe Reader to search in the PDF text very useful for finding stuff. Device specifics are in the schematic, so I guess you could go looking for a manufacturers technical writeup and figure out the granularity from that. I think that some of what you are calling punching really is just the K3 dealing with sudden power spikes. Professional microphone technique would not include very soft followed by very loud. The K3 is interpreting the loudest audio as being the intentional top of your speaking pattern and is setting power management to NOT punch out the amp and cause ALC spikes coming back from the amp. This effect would be further exacerbated if all of the various TX power calibrations had not been done correctly, as it will be further exacerbated if the users manual MIC/CMP/PWR setting procedure is not used. The terms you are using to describe the K3's internal functioning will remain speculative unless Wayne publishes stuff, and our thought patterns still have have that analog, sequential function sound to them : ) K3 has a digital transmit envelope management function that should be preceded by proper TX gain calibrations, and the user manual MIC/CMP/PWR setting. 73, Guy. On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Luis V. Romero lrom...@ij.net wrote: Some quick questions (yeah, I know I said I would stop, but I cant help it, I want to understand!) ...a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. That is, prior to Digital Signal Processing, or before analog is converted to digital. Where exactly does the input to the TX DSP section (OK, IF section) hit an ADC? Where do we move from the Analog domain to the Digital domain? Where is the quantizer for the mic input? Would make sense if it was before the Clipper, right? In your headroom explanation, is there a common instance of microphone ADC saturation that needs to be reported? That's a pretty seventh-grade mistake on Wayne's part if it's true. (Yeah, I know, the first Hubble lenses, and the unit snafu on the Mars landers, also very seventh-grade.) I don't believe that's it at all. I can punch holes into the audio if I speak softly then speak loudly. Sounds to me like there is some kind of compression happening (that is why I first incorrectly assumed that this thing used a compressor not a kind of IF/RF Clipper). What happens is that the radio grabs the loud syllable and holds off from releasing the gain reduction for a bit, then recovers. If you hit it with something loud, then something soft, you hear the hole. The decay of whatever is grabbing the peak is slower than the attack. There is no overshoot that I can discern with my ears, as the firmware must be dropping audio into a buffer and setting the response in kind. I once heard people complain about delay in the monitor, I do hear a very slight one. So there must be a look ahead buffer that computes the response to the peak. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have a handle on at least the decay, so it can more match the attack. Probably cant do that as it would create more delay in the monitor. It's a fine line. What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. Elecraft is already accomplishing
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 02:22:40 -0400, Luis V. Romero wrote: What I call punching holes in the audio is exactly that... If you have a short loud sound followed by a soft one, part of the soft one goes away due to the attack/decay ratio YES! This is a very common problem generated by low frequency sounds like P-popping (which is really a blast of air from your mouth hitting mic diaphram when you pronounce a P-sound), and is a major reason why it's important to roll off the low end before it hits the compressor. It's also a big reason why multi-band compression is such a good idea, as Tom was talking about. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
The terms you are using to describe the K3's internal functioning will remain speculative unless Wayne publishes stuff,... The K3 Mic algorithm applies a fast attack, slow decay gain control loop after the Tx Equalizer. The peak detector in this loop is displayed on the ALC bargraph. The fifth bar indicates the threshold beyond which the loop reduces gain. Currently, the 6th bar shows about 3 dB of loop gain reduction and the 7th bar's threshold is about 6 dB of loop gain reduction. Fast and slow are relative terms, and not user adjustable. Consider them part of the rig's personality... 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 05:57:26 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: The K3 Mic algorithm applies a fast attack, slow decay gain control loop after the Tx Equalizer. AFTER the TX Eq is critical, and you've done it right. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Lyle, The K3 Mic algorithm applies a fast attack, slow decay gain control loop after the Tx Equalizer. The peak detector in this loop is displayed on the ALC bargraph. Does this gain control occur before or after the compressor if it is engaged? Fast and slow are relative terms, and not user adjustable. Consider them part of the rig's personality... If the gain control is prior to the compressor, a fast decay might be more appropriate and reduce the punch out effect. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/30/2010 8:57 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote: The terms you are using to describe the K3's internal functioning will remain speculative unless Wayne publishes stuff,... The K3 Mic algorithm applies a fast attack, slow decay gain control loop after the Tx Equalizer. The peak detector in this loop is displayed on the ALC bargraph. The fifth bar indicates the threshold beyond which the loop reduces gain. Currently, the 6th bar shows about 3 dB of loop gain reduction and the 7th bar's threshold is about 6 dB of loop gain reduction. Fast and slow are relative terms, and not user adjustable. Consider them part of the rig's personality... 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
The K3 Mic algorithm applies a fast attack, slow decay gain control loop after the Tx Equalizer. The peak detector in this loop is displayed on the ALC bargraph. Does this gain control occur before or after the compressor if it is engaged? Before. Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Does this gain control occur before or after the compressor if it is engaged? Before. Might be more appropriate for a long decay gain control loop to FOLLOW the compressor (clipper). IIRC, that is the order in most broadcast (talk formatted) use ... the clipper prevents unusual peaks from causing distortion and the longer recovery compressor smooths out the level (rides gain). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/30/2010 1:25 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote: The K3 Mic algorithm applies a fast attack, slow decay gain control loop after the Tx Equalizer. The peak detector in this loop is displayed on the ALC bargraph. Does this gain control occur before or after the compressor if it is engaged? Before. Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Does this gain control occur before or after the compressor if it is engaged? Before. Might be more appropriate for a long decay gain control loop to FOLLOW the compressor (clipper). That loop is handled by the ALC circuitry/logic in the K3. The K3's Tx gain system in voice modes is the mic gain loop I described, then the clipper if engaged by the operator, then the power control/ALC loop. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Sounds sweet to me, even if it is just number soup. As some have said, try it, you might like it. 73, Guy. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Lyle Johnson k...@wavecable.com wrote: Does this gain control occur before or after the compressor if it is engaged? Before. Might be more appropriate for a long decay gain control loop to FOLLOW the compressor (clipper). That loop is handled by the ALC circuitry/logic in the K3. The K3's Tx gain system in voice modes is the mic gain loop I described, then the clipper if engaged by the operator, then the power control/ALC loop. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
By the same reasoning, we might obtain improvement to our analog solid state transceivers by adding some front end vacuum tube gear! :-) Sweet! Now we are talking about real radios! Mike Scott - AE6WA Tarzana, CA (DM04 / near LA) NAQCC 3535 K3-100 #508 / KX1 #1311 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Hi Lu. Schematics for the K3 are downloadable PDF on the Elecraft website. Many questions can be answered right off just digging into the drawings. I find the ability in Adobe Reader to search in the PDF text very useful for finding stuff. Device specifics are in the schematic, so I guess you could go looking for a manufacturers technical writeup and figure out the granularity from that. I think that some of what you are calling punching really is just the K3 dealing with sudden power spikes. Professional microphone technique would not include very soft followed by very loud. The K3 is interpreting the loudest audio as being the intentional top of your speaking pattern and is setting power management to NOT punch out the amp and cause ALC spikes coming back from the amp. This effect would be further exacerbated if all of the various TX power calibrations had not been done correctly, as it will be further exacerbated if the users manual MIC/CMP/PWR setting procedure is not used. The terms you are using to describe the K3's internal functioning will remain speculative unless Wayne publishes stuff, and our thought patterns still have have that analog, sequential function sound to them : ) K3 has a digital transmit envelope management function that should be preceded by proper TX gain calibrations, and the user manual MIC/CMP/PWR setting. 73, Guy. On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Luis V. Romero lrom...@ij.net wrote: Some quick questions (yeah, I know I said I would stop, but I cant help it, I want to understand!) ...a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. That is, prior to Digital Signal Processing, or before analog is converted to digital. Where exactly does the input to the TX DSP section (OK, IF section) hit an ADC? Where do we move from the Analog domain to the Digital domain? Where is the quantizer for the mic input? Would make sense if it was before the Clipper, right? In your headroom explanation, is there a common instance of microphone ADC saturation that needs to be reported? That's a pretty seventh-grade mistake on Wayne's part if it's true. (Yeah, I know, the first Hubble lenses, and the unit snafu on the Mars landers, also very seventh-grade.) I don't believe that's it at all. I can punch holes into the audio if I speak softly then speak loudly. Sounds to me like there is some kind of compression happening (that is why I first incorrectly assumed that this thing used a compressor not a kind of IF/RF Clipper). What happens is that the radio grabs the loud syllable and holds off from releasing the gain reduction for a bit, then recovers. If you hit it with something loud, then something soft, you hear the hole. The decay of whatever is grabbing the peak is slower than the attack. There is no overshoot that I can discern with my ears, as the firmware must be dropping audio into a buffer and setting the response in kind. I once heard people complain about delay in the monitor, I do hear a very slight one. So there must be a look ahead buffer that computes the response to the peak. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have a handle on at least the decay, so it can more match the attack. Probably cant do that as it would create more delay in the monitor. It's a fine line. What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. Elecraft is already accomplishing envelope leveling and shaping with digital functions that don't appear to resemble the sledge and wedge of RF clipping and AF variable band amplifiers. SOME folks get excellent results using the K3's leveling and shaping processes for TX audio. I would hate to bring up RTFM on setting up K3 mic gain and compression, but the manual procedure does seem to work. I would like to get a better understanding of the process that is used here. I do use the manual settings, It does work well, and does sound good, but I would like to understand what is happening under the hood better so I can better adapt to what this rig likes to hear, which, to me, is consistent levels. My old admittedly analog rig was less picky and had much more room to play with (when I let it). Hopefully that is not Elecraft Secret Sauce. AND, since there is NO analog audio band circuitry in there anywhere, BUT there ARE banded TX and RX equalizer functions being done in the number soup, whose gains are being set by NUMBERS we enter in the menu, what makes us think he hasn't already done something proprietary about banded gain which he is developing further and is not about to reveal so the competition can't copy it for free? This is probably the Secret Sauce I'm talking about. Are you implying 8-band
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
It is VERY well known that the most important octave bands for speech intelligibilty are the octave bands centered on 1,000 Hz and 2,000 Hz. Those bands range means from about 720 Hz to about 2.8 kHz. The 500 Hz is next most important (extending down to about 350 Hz), followed by the 4000 Hz octave band. Case in point? Just yesterday on 40 meters an S9 station with all that wonderful bass called me, and I had to adjust the shift lower (to cut bass response with the K3) and narrow the filter to be able to understand him through background noise that was several S units weaker than him. A friend in Australia with normal communications audio was a bit weaker, but much better copy. All that bass power wasted, being transmitted just to be filtered and discarded at the receiver. :-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
It is also interesting that human hearing is most sensitive in the very area that the human voice has no energy. Some have speculated that to be an evolutionary defense which allowed early man to hear danger in the middle of a crowd of voices. There's actually quite a bit of short duration energy of the human voice at or near 3 kHz. Interestingly, the classic Fletcher-Munson (FM) family of curves shows peak sensitivity to sound pressure level also at or near 3 kHz. The speculation by many speech pathologists, audiologists and researchers is that the presence band near 3 kHz evolved over time, matching an important part of human speech for maximum intelligibility near the 3 kHz octave-band region. The 3 kHz peak is a function of the ear canal length. As I recall from my psychacoustics studies at NIU, the ear canal length does not change significantly from the time birth to adulthood. The resonance point on the FM curves is calculated as anyone would calculate the resonance point of a closed pipe. The tympanic membrane forms the closure on one end of the pipe. I would say that maximum articulation occurs at an upper audio cut-off near 3 kHz, with diminishing returns above that point. On the low end, it's easy to plot the lowest frequency generated by any voice. Using FFT software and a sound card, I've measured the fundamental point of most male voices between 80-95 Hz. That 15 Hz of difference may not seem like much, but the difference is significant. I've measured only a few voices on the air that reach slightly below 80 Hz and when they do, they're the ones that could do well with commercial voice-over work. Certainly any attempt to achieve a response in low-end audio below about 90 Hz is a wasted effort. Folks who adjust their low-end EQ to compensate for a lack of deep bass in their voices can do nothing to sound the way they really want to. Either we were born with the gift or we weren't and no amount of EQ will change that -- excessive boost just makes it sound like we're trying to compensate for something we don't have and can easily create a phantom carrier when speaking in ESSB mode. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Why pre-DSP? He can do that in firmware. You can forget about a hardware mod. Why do we keep trying to remake a digital radio into an analog radio? A DSP version can have options. Just has to get in line with all the other things taking resources in a small business. How do you define headroom? 73, Guy. The only things that I would add to the K3 transmitter processing chain would be a bit more headroom, a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. If Lyle could do this I would kiss the ring! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Guy, You are absolutely right. While much of the pro-audio equipment is going digital to be able to more precisely control parameters without the expensive of many analog stages, we are seeing requests for adding an analog front end to the K3 digital audio processing as though that would accomplish some sort of magic. By the same reasoning, we might obtain improvement to our analog solid state transceivers by adding some front end vacuum tube gear! :-) 73, Don W3FPR Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Why pre-DSP? He can do that in firmware. You can forget about a hardware mod. Why do we keep trying to remake a digital radio into an analog radio? A DSP version can have options. Just has to get in line with all the other things taking resources in a small business. How do you define headroom? 73, Guy. The only things that I would add to the K3 transmitter processing chain would be a bit more headroom, a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. If Lyle could do this I would kiss the ring! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Guys... Hold on... I have my reasons... Hear me out... Why pre-DSP? Maybe I should have said Before the input of the active audio processing area in the DSP section of the radio. That is, a way to control analog dynamic range at the input of the RF Clipper section of the DSP audio chain. What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. The K3's DSP audio management software understands the Nyquist Limit of its ADC, and it plays a very conservative game :) The RF Clipper does a good job of controlling these, always keeping them within the ADC's non distorting range, but nothing is perfect. If you hit the input stage too hard (ever get excited calling a DX Station or a Multiplier?) the clipper grabs the peak, which then reduces the overall audio level. Since the decay value is somewhat slower than the attack, you end up punching a hole in the audio. Im really nitpicking here... Its really minor, but I notice it and have learned to live with it. But it *IS* there. He can do that in firmware. Thats just fine with me. I dont care if he does it with Squirrels on a treadmill, if it can be done, Im all for it! You can forget about a hardware mod. I was not aware that I was requesting a hardware mod. Where did you get that idea? I dont care how its done. I just hope that it *CAN* be done. Why do we keep trying to remake a digital radio into an analog radio? I was not aware that only *analog* radios had an AGC ahead of a limiter. I know many broadcast digital processors that have these features incorporated in software. You can always go to the nearest pawn shop and buy a Aphex Compellor and a mic preamp and do the same thing. Just would be nice to have it all in one box. A DSP version can have options. Exactly! This is just one more option! Just has to get in line with all the other things taking resources in a small business. I have no problem with that. K3 is not broken, Im not trying to fix it. Just in my opinion this would be a very useful feature. Its up to Wayne and his staff to make the ultimate decision. If I want to fix it, I have to dust off my Compellor and add some complexity to my station. I dont want to do that. How do you define headroom? The difference between when the input to the DSP is at its highest point (100% signal saturation) and the point where the input waveform clips appreciably (usually 10% above full modulation is a standard measurement) in an RMS waveform. Remember we are using a ADC here. It QUANTIZES the analog waveform in finite steps (254? 1024? Only Lyle knows what he has implemented). If its, for example, 0 to 254, then 255 is distortion because the value is undefined and is truncated in the quantization matrix. You have hit the Nyquist wall! For instance, in professional digital videotape machines, maximum level is defined as -20dB (-20dB = 0VU in analog) and saturation is defined as 0dB (the clip point in analog). The difference between these levels is defined as headroom (the Nyquist limit) for those RMS peaks that happen in wide dynamic range material. Back in the analog days we would use 0VU as the RMS reference level, but the peaks could go all the way into the red without distorting... But then analog systems went into distortion gracefully a lot higher than 0VU; they never run out of numbers (reach the Nyquist limit), but they do run out of the linear curve of the active devices in the circuit. Digital systems just clip when they run out of numbers, so there is no margin for error, hence the digital overhead to account for analog dynamic range built in to digital audio recorders. What Im saying is that since the difference in the K3 is somewhat narrow, because we are playing conservatively, in my opinion (I have not done quantitative testing, Its just my by ear opinion), if there were some dynamic range leveling before the ADC, it would be helpful to the overall system efficiency. I will shut up now, learn not to yell into the mic or go plug in my Compellor :) -lu-w4lt- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Don, I never suggested that this be implemented by an analog stage or in an analog fashion. I dont know where you guys are getting that idea! AGC can be perfectly implemented in a digital environment. It would quantize the waveform and bring the valleys up to the peaks, then hand them off to the clipper where the real fun begins. That's all Im describing! It has nothing to do with a 12AX7 at all! We have beat this to death enough, so as not to rase the ire of Eric the Mighty Moderator, I now terminate my comments on this thread. If we want to kibbitz, we can do it off the list. -lu-w4lt- - Original Message Follows - From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com To: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net Cc: lrom...@ij.net, elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:14:44 -0400 Guy, You are absolutely right. While much of the pro-audio equipment is going digital to be able to more precisely control parameters without the expensive of many analog stages, we are seeing requests for adding an analog front end to the K3 digital audio processing as though that would accomplish some sort of magic. By the same reasoning, we might obtain improvement to our analog solid state transceivers by adding some front end vacuum tube gear! :-) 73, Don W3FPR Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Why pre-DSP? He can do that in firmware. You can forget about a hardware mod. Why do we keep trying to remake a digital radio into an analog radio? A DSP version can have options. Just has to get in line with all the other things taking resources in a small business. How do you define headroom? 73, Guy. The only things that I would add to the K3 transmitter processing chain would be a bit more headroom, a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. If Lyle could do this I would kiss the ring! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Maybe I should have said Before the input of the active audio processing area in the DSP section of the radio. That is, a way to control analog dynamic range at the input of the RF Clipper section of the DSP audio chain We should not be clipping at RF anyway. RF clipping, or clipping an entire band, is an old method that should have been retired years ago. What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. The proper way to process speech is to split the speech into bands that are less than one octave wide. Then we clip and process each frequency band. The output is filtered in a filter to clean it up, and the results are remixed in the ratio the user wants. Take 300-500 and clip it, the closest harmonic is 600. Filter it at 300-500. 500-900 and clip it, the closest harmonic is 1000. Filter it at 500-900. 900-1700 and clip it, the closest harmonic is 1800. Filter it at 900-1700. 1700-3300 and clip. Filter it at 1700-3300. In a DSP algorithm this idea would be fantastic, instead of emulating something that was never that good to start with. Vomax did something like this in the 70's when op-amps first came out. I had a homebrew system with slow input AGC, gating, and split processing. Why turn back the clock to a compressor preceding an RF processor? Contest stations already waste too much energy in distortion and by transmitting useless frequencies. 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
I personally have just as much trouble as anyone else remembering to think of the K3 as digital. On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Lu Romero lrom...@ij.net wrote: Don, I never suggested that this be implemented by an analog stage or in an analog fashion. I dont know where you guys are getting that idea! Other than taking what you said as what you meant? Tough reading your mind at this distance. You said: ...a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. That is, prior to Digital Signal Processing, or before analog is converted to digital. In your headroom explanation, is there a common instance of microphone ADC saturation that needs to be reported? That's a pretty seventh-grade mistake on Wayne's part if it's true. (Yeah, I know, the first Hubble lenses, and the unit snafu on the Mars landers, also very seventh-grade.) You also said: What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. Elecraft is already accomplishing envelope leveling and shaping with digital functions that don't appear to resemble the sledge and wedge of RF clipping and AF variable band amplifiers. SOME folks get excellent results using the K3's leveling and shaping processes for TX audio. I would hate to bring up RTFM on setting up K3 mic gain and compression, but the manual procedure does seem to work. AND, since there is NO analog audio band circuitry in there anywhere, BUT there ARE banded TX and RX equalizer functions being done in the number soup, whose gains are being set by NUMBERS we enter in the menu, what makes us think he hasn't already done something proprietary about banded gain which he is developing further and is not about to reveal so the competition can't copy it for free? My grandchildren are growing up digital. My having my brain trained on analog is my problem, certainly not theirs. Grandkids think number soup and audio that turns analog as close as possible to the speakers is the good stuff, especially if the last stage is a big tube followed by a transformer (go figure). You should have seen the look I got from the oldest one when I asked him if the audio actually went through all the slide pots on one of those big digital mixers he was running, the look that says Please don't talk like that when my friends are around. Just a couple of the plentiful opportunities for mental disconnects, there is no K3 RX AF analog circuit controlled by AF gain. There is no K3 RX RF analog circuit controlled by RF gain. The AF and RF pot settings are immediately turned into advice numbers and passed along to the MCU. There is a lot of misadventure to be had thinking of the K3 in analog terms. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Some quick questions (yeah, I know I said I would stop, but I cant help it, I want to understand!) ...a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. That is, prior to Digital Signal Processing, or before analog is converted to digital. Where exactly does the input to the TX DSP section (OK, IF section) hit an ADC? Where do we move from the Analog domain to the Digital domain? Where is the quantizer for the mic input? Would make sense if it was before the Clipper, right? In your headroom explanation, is there a common instance of microphone ADC saturation that needs to be reported? That's a pretty seventh-grade mistake on Wayne's part if it's true. (Yeah, I know, the first Hubble lenses, and the unit snafu on the Mars landers, also very seventh-grade.) I don't believe that's it at all. I can punch holes into the audio if I speak softly then speak loudly. Sounds to me like there is some kind of compression happening (that is why I first incorrectly assumed that this thing used a compressor not a kind of IF/RF Clipper). What happens is that the radio grabs the loud syllable and holds off from releasing the gain reduction for a bit, then recovers. If you hit it with something loud, then something soft, you hear the hole. The decay of whatever is grabbing the peak is slower than the attack. There is no overshoot that I can discern with my ears, as the firmware must be dropping audio into a buffer and setting the response in kind. I once heard people complain about delay in the monitor, I do hear a very slight one. So there must be a look ahead buffer that computes the response to the peak. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have a handle on at least the decay, so it can more match the attack. Probably cant do that as it would create more delay in the monitor. It's a fine line. What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. Elecraft is already accomplishing envelope leveling and shaping with digital functions that don't appear to resemble the sledge and wedge of RF clipping and AF variable band amplifiers. SOME folks get excellent results using the K3's leveling and shaping processes for TX audio. I would hate to bring up RTFM on setting up K3 mic gain and compression, but the manual procedure does seem to work. I would like to get a better understanding of the process that is used here. I do use the manual settings, It does work well, and does sound good, but I would like to understand what is happening under the hood better so I can better adapt to what this rig likes to hear, which, to me, is consistent levels. My old admittedly analog rig was less picky and had much more room to play with (when I let it). Hopefully that is not Elecraft Secret Sauce. AND, since there is NO analog audio band circuitry in there anywhere, BUT there ARE banded TX and RX equalizer functions being done in the number soup, whose gains are being set by NUMBERS we enter in the menu, what makes us think he hasn't already done something proprietary about banded gain which he is developing further and is not about to reveal so the competition can't copy it for free? This is probably the Secret Sauce I'm talking about. Are you implying 8-band digital split band processing? You should have seen the look I got from the oldest one when I asked him if the audio actually went through all the slide pots on one of those big digital mixers he was running, the look that says Please don't talk like that when my friends are around. That's pretty funny. On my side, the video side, I was explaining to a pretty hot non linear editor how we did non-b-roll match frame editing with timecode on helical composite VTR's and the importance of the color frame sequence across 4 fields (360 degrees of subcarrier and matching subcarrier to horizontal sync) so that the picture wouldn't jump at the match frame in NTSC. Couldn't understand the process! Couldn't even begin to understand true A/B rolls either. So I know what you mean. there is no K3 RX AF analog circuit controlled by AF gain. There is no K3 RX RF analog circuit controlled by RF gain. The AF and RF pot settings are immediately turned into advice numbers and passed along to the MCU. Advice in the way of a VCA setting? Wonder what the granularity is. It is an analog pot, so logically we read a voltage and digitize it, then report it to the MCU. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, Guy. Now I know the probable true reason for the annoying cant talk to the RX controls while in TX behavior. A hybrid Parallel/Serial signal bus. I'm afraid I pushed paper from the left side to the right side of a desk for way too long. -lu- No virus found in
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Lu, I don't know if it is my email client or your responses, but I cannot make much sense of your in-line questions/comments. Please ask your questions in plain English in a single coherent statement. combing through a bunch of things trunchated by blue bars on my email client is totally confusing. Sorry if I am being an old 'fuddy-duddy', but I simply cannot readily see which are your questions and which are the things you are referring to. Concise questions please. 73, Don W3FPR Luis V. Romero wrote: Some quick questions (yeah, I know I said I would stop, but I cant help it, I want to understand!) ...a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. That is, prior to Digital Signal Processing, or before analog is converted to digital. Where exactly does the input to the TX DSP section (OK, IF section) hit an ADC? Where do we move from the Analog domain to the Digital domain? Where is the quantizer for the mic input? Would make sense if it was before the Clipper, right? In your headroom explanation, is there a common instance of microphone ADC saturation that needs to be reported? That's a pretty seventh-grade mistake on Wayne's part if it's true. (Yeah, I know, the first Hubble lenses, and the unit snafu on the Mars landers, also very seventh-grade.) I don't believe that's it at all. I can punch holes into the audio if I speak softly then speak loudly. Sounds to me like there is some kind of compression happening (that is why I first incorrectly assumed that this thing used a compressor not a kind of IF/RF Clipper). What happens is that the radio grabs the loud syllable and holds off from releasing the gain reduction for a bit, then recovers. If you hit it with something loud, then something soft, you hear the hole. The decay of whatever is grabbing the peak is slower than the attack. There is no overshoot that I can discern with my ears, as the firmware must be dropping audio into a buffer and setting the response in kind. I once heard people complain about delay in the monitor, I do hear a very slight one. So there must be a look ahead buffer that computes the response to the peak. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have a handle on at least the decay, so it can more match the attack. Probably cant do that as it would create more delay in the monitor. It's a fine line. What I was suggesting is an AGC funtion before the RF Clipping section touches the audio waveform. Something to smooth out the dynamic range of the audio input so that the DSP processing engine would not have to work so hard dealing with peaks and valleys and can be let loose some. Elecraft is already accomplishing envelope leveling and shaping with digital functions that don't appear to resemble the sledge and wedge of RF clipping and AF variable band amplifiers. SOME folks get excellent results using the K3's leveling and shaping processes for TX audio. I would hate to bring up RTFM on setting up K3 mic gain and compression, but the manual procedure does seem to work. I would like to get a better understanding of the process that is used here. I do use the manual settings, It does work well, and does sound good, but I would like to understand what is happening under the hood better so I can better adapt to what this rig likes to hear, which, to me, is consistent levels. My old admittedly analog rig was less picky and had much more room to play with (when I let it). Hopefully that is not Elecraft Secret Sauce. AND, since there is NO analog audio band circuitry in there anywhere, BUT there ARE banded TX and RX equalizer functions being done in the number soup, whose gains are being set by NUMBERS we enter in the menu, what makes us think he hasn't already done something proprietary about banded gain which he is developing further and is not about to reveal so the competition can't copy it for free? This is probably the Secret Sauce I'm talking about. Are you implying 8-band digital split band processing? You should have seen the look I got from the oldest one when I asked him if the audio actually went through all the slide pots on one of those big digital mixers he was running, the look that says Please don't talk like that when my friends are around. That's pretty funny. On my side, the video side, I was explaining to a pretty hot non linear editor how we did non-b-roll match frame editing with timecode on helical composite VTR's and the importance of the color frame sequence across 4 fields (360 degrees of subcarrier and matching subcarrier to horizontal sync) so that the picture wouldn't jump at the match frame in NTSC. Couldn't understand the process! Couldn't even begin to understand true A/B rolls either. So I know what you mean. there is no K3 RX AF analog circuit controlled by AF gain. There is
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Here Here! (or Hear Hear): Jim, are you a disciple of Frank Foti? :) I like Julius' gear, and I have worked with the EQPlus device at the NQ4I Multi Multi station on Rick's Orions. This box does make those radios sound quite good, especially with just a hint of Delay dialed in. I do find that the noise gate on the K3 has a crackling sound when muting and unmuting, making somewhat useless to me (if you pay attention to that nuance... I do. Otherwise, it works just fine) Lyle has done a great job with the TX chain on the K3... I would like to see some handles on Attack and Release as well as ratio, but then that could be painful to use if you dont know what youre doing. RF Clipper's attack and decay characteristics are rather generalised. The best way to fix audio ambient noise issues is through your environment's acoustics instead of fixing it in the mix with processing and gating. Folks shouldnt forget that we are transmitting into a very noisy medium. High dynamic range defeats intelligibility. SENSIBLE compression (RF Clipping) settings are your friends, as you then reduce the dynamic range (the difference between the loudest and the softest sounds in a given audio waveform) and have more modulation density to rise above the ambient noise on the band. Tailoring your frequency response to concentrate power in a given voice range will go a long way to making your signal pop out of the noise. Close talk the mic as much as possible and reduce the mic gain as Jim describes. A good example on how all these parameters work together to make your signal stand out can be gleaned by downloading VE3NEA's excellent Voice Shaper simulator program (its free). Use your favorite air mic and play with it for a while to get an understanding of how gates, compressor/limiters and EQ affect your signal in QRM and QRN conditions. Try to pay attention to the natural acoustics in your operating position, if you can. Curtains help, hard walls hurt. Carpet helps, Terrazo floors hurt. Try to set your operating position and/or microphone somewhat at an angle between hard reflecting walls to reduce phase cancelling or adding from the reflecting walls/surfaces. Personally, I am not a believer in ESSB. But different strokes for different folks, and I wont criticise folks who practice this voodoo until they become 8kHz wide and QRM me or I am able to understand them when listening to their SSB signal in AM mode (all that bass often creates a pseudo carrier). You would be surprised how well you can be heard using the built in features provided by Elecraft in the K3. It takes practice and a commitment to resist the temptation to turn it up to eleven. -lu-W4LT- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:57:04 -0700 From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus To: Elecraft List elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 20100426175705.d90c957...@gw1.nlenet.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:18:01 +, Lance Collister wrote: It very effectively cuts out the background blower noise Some of the major causes of audible background noise are 1) working too far from the mic; 2) running the mic gain too high; 3) using too much compression/processing; and 4) not rolling off the low frequencies. In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. Indeed, the only difference between what's right for broadcasting and for ham radio is WHERE to cut the low end and HOW MUCH money to spend on compression/processing. Many years ago, I sold processing systems for broadcast stations that cost upwards of $10K in today's dollars, and I helped the chief engineers of those stations adjust them. I suspect that W8JI and K4TAX have similar experience. Before I spent ANY money on an outboard box for a ham rig, I would first follow all of those elements of good engineering practice. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:56:31 -0400, Lu Romero wrote: Here Here! (or Hear Hear): Jim, are you a disciple of Frank Foti? :) Never heard of him. The best way to fix audio ambient noise issues is through your environment's acoustics instead of fixing it in the mix with processing and gating. Yes. The noise sources in my shack are the fans in my Ten Tec Titan power amps, and a few outboard fans I've added to cool their power supplies for high duty-cycle contesting. The Titan fans can get pretty noisy, and their case/chassis can amplify their vibrations, making them louder. I keep the screws tightened so the lids don't vibrate, and I've got both amps (I do SO2R) sitting on soft acoustic foam to decouple them from the desktop that they're sitting on. I've also placed some absorption on the walls behind the amps. Although I haven't measured it, I'd estimate that I've attenuated it by 6dB or so. Folks shouldnt forget that we are transmitting into a very noisy medium. High dynamic range defeats intelligibility. SENSIBLE compression (RF Clipping) settings are your friends, as you then reduce the dynamic range (the difference between the loudest and the softest sounds in a given audio waveform) and have more modulation density to rise above the ambient noise on the band. EXACTLY! Try to pay attention to the natural acoustics in your operating position, if you can. Curtains help, hard walls hurt. Carpet helps, Terrazo floors hurt. More very good advice. The key benefit of this is to reduce the wild sound (both noise and wall reflections) that the mic hears. In addition to funky carpet on the floor, more absorption is provided by walls holding books on shelves. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Bob: This is becoming somewhat off topic... While I agree in principle, in practice, there are some high frequency sibilance formants that need bandwidth up to and including 2.8kHz to almost 3kHz to be well understood. There are also some harmonics, especially in male voices, that go down below 300-400 Hz. This is all variable with each person's individual voice, so YMMV. Joe, W4TV, clued me in to a small nuance that I had completely neglected a few months back. He listened to my EQ settings and mentioned that my audio was punchy but thin as he put it. I listened to a recording that AD4C made of me and I realized that I was clipping off some low harmonics by completely dropping everything below 400Hz. I now add a little +3dB bump to my EQ settings around 200Hz. It gives me some added presence. That little hump sort of fattens my voice and helps lift it over hissy band noise a bit. Im setting up the NQ4I Orions the same way, too, and its made quite a difference. I also like a little hint of Harmonic Distortion in my audio, especially in the DVK. Just my personal preference, it adds what I call edge to the a CQ Message Loop. My TS850 did this with high boost on by itself, and I can duplicate it with the MicroKeyer's recording path. I record ALL DVK through the MicroKeyer's recording facility now, with consistently repeatable results. I play out through N1MM's DVK through the MicroKeyer2's soundcard. I have almost gotten used to the different EQ band center frequencies in the K3 Equalizer, too :) I have owned K3 #3192 for almost 6 months now. It has taken me almost all that time to feel comfortable with the audio chain to the extent that I was comfortable with my former TS850S equipped with a slew of Behringer and Radio Design Labs outboard processing toys. The only things that I would add to the K3 transmitter processing chain would be a bit more headroom, a Pre-DSP two band audio leveler/AGC and handles for Attack, Decay and Ratio on the RF Clipper. If Lyle could do this I would kiss the ring! They should hold a seminar on this at Elecraft and not let anybody access the last three adjustments until they passed a certification test, however! It would be like giving Nuclear Missiles to Mohmar Khadaffi in the hands of the uninitiated :) -lu-w4lt- - Original Message Follows - From: Bob McGraw - K4TAX rmcg...@blomand.net To: lrom...@ij.net, Elecraft List elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:40:25 -0500 One of the things we often fail to implement is the transmit bandwidth being adjusted much like the receiving bandwidth on the other end. In a contest situation likely the receiving station is using a 1500 to 1800 Hz receiver bandwidth with likely band pass tuning such that the lower 300 to 500 Hz of that is attenuated. This makes for an effective receive bandwidth of some 1300 Hz or so. Now then with our transmitter setting for a full width normal SSB bandwidth of say 2.6 or 2.8 KHz and a low end roll off of say 120 Hz this make for an effective bandwidth of some 2600 Hz. Yes our transmitter power is spread over that bandwidth. Wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate the transmitter power over say 1300 Hz rather than 2600 Hz? In doing so one gains almost 3 dB of effective power increase with actually no increase in PEP. Plus the other folks on the band will appreciate the narrow signals. Yes of course it will sound pinched up but in reality there is little information in the male voice spoken range below 400 Hz and little above 1500 to 1800 Hz. But hey, some of the compressed and processed signals only serve to occupy the full 2600 Hz of bandwidth, with what? It's not pretty for sure. So if you want a screaming DX pileup busting signal, squeeze in the bandwidth and don't worry about the EQ or the special purpose mike. Your good sounding SSB mike into that transmitter bandwidth will do the job just fine and the neighbors on either side of your frequency will appreciate your efforts. 73 Bob, K4TAX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:49:14 -0400, Lu Romero wrote: While I agree in principle, in practice, there are some high frequency sibilance formants that need bandwidth up to and including 2.8kHz to almost 3kHz to be well understood. There are also some harmonics, especially in male voices, that go down below 300-400 Hz. YES. Because I've made my living designing sound systems for highly reverberant churches, this is something that I've had to carefully study. It is VERY well known that the most important octave bands for speech intelligibilty are the octave bands centered on 1,000 Hz and 2,000 Hz. Those bands range means from about 720 Hz to about 2.8 kHz. The 500 Hz is next most important (extending down to about 350 Hz), followed by the 4000 Hz octave band. Human knowledge about this is VERY well established, and dates back to the earliest days of telephony. That's why it's so important to boost the mic response to compensate for the rolloff by crystal filters between 2 and 3kHz! 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
It is VERY well known that the most important octave bands for speech intelligibilty are the octave bands centered on 1,000 Hz and 2,000 Hz. Those bands range means from about 720 Hz to about 2.8 kHz. The 500 Hz is next most important (extending down to about 350 Hz), followed by the 4000 Hz octave band. And in the 1000 Hz band, the important part is almost entirely the upper third. Human voice has almost no energy and nothing that contributes to intelligibility between approximately 700 and 1100 Hz (with some variation in the beginning/end of that dead band). One can do extremely effective communications audio with 300 - 600 Hz and 1200 Hz to 2400 Hz only. Extend that just slightly (200 - 600 Hz and 1200 Hz - 2800 Hz) and one gets audio with very good presence (the low format) and excellent articulation (the high format). It is also interesting that human hearing is most sensitive in the very area that the human voice has no energy. Some have speculated that to be an evolutionary defense which allowed early man to hear danger in the middle of a crowd of voices. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/28/2010 12:29 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:49:14 -0400, Lu Romero wrote: While I agree in principle, in practice, there are some high frequency sibilance formants that need bandwidth up to and including 2.8kHz to almost 3kHz to be well understood. There are also some harmonics, especially in male voices, that go down below 300-400 Hz. YES. Because I've made my living designing sound systems for highly reverberant churches, this is something that I've had to carefully study. It is VERY well known that the most important octave bands for speech intelligibilty are the octave bands centered on 1,000 Hz and 2,000 Hz. Those bands range means from about 720 Hz to about 2.8 kHz. The 500 Hz is next most important (extending down to about 350 Hz), followed by the 4000 Hz octave band. Human knowledge about this is VERY well established, and dates back to the earliest days of telephony. That's why it's so important to boost the mic response to compensate for the rolloff by crystal filters between 2 and 3kHz! 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Hello Ron, I use a W2IHY 2 band equalizer and noise gate with my K3 and am VERY PLEASED with the performance. I highly recommend it! I don't use it for trying to customize my transmit audio fidelity or anything - I think you could do that very successfully with the K3 adjustments, if you wanted to. As a point in fact, I have never changed my K3 audio output settings at all. The reason I use the W2IHY unit is for the excellent noise gate that it provides. It very effectively cuts out the background blower noise, and I get excellent on the air reports with it. When I acquired my K3, I tried to use the noise gate built into the K3 so I could keep the W2IHY unit connected to my old IC746. However, I could not seem to adjust the K3 noise gate to avoid getting reports of audio distortion :-( So, reluctantly, I had to disable the noise gate in the K3 and return to the external W2IHY unit. Best wishes for success! GL and VY 73, Lance On 4/25/2010 8:59 PM, Ron Gould wrote: Has anyone tried either of these products out on a K3 and care to share their results compared to using the built in 8 band equalizer built into the K3. I am not interested in any comments by others who have not actually tried these out. If you would like to take this discussion off list please contact me directly. If someone has these products and is willing to set up a schedule on the air all the better. Thanks __ -- Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX) P.O. Box 73 Frenchtown, MT 59834 USA QTH: DN27UB TEL: (406) 626-5728 URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj LIVE MESSENGER CHAT: w...@hotmail.com 2m DXCC #11, 6m DXCC #815 Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME email! http://6meme.com/mailman/listinfo/magic_6meme.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:18:01 +, Lance Collister wrote: It very effectively cuts out the background blower noise Some of the major causes of audible background noise are 1) working too far from the mic; 2) running the mic gain too high; 3) using too much compression/processing; and 4) not rolling off the low frequencies. In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. Indeed, the only difference between what's right for broadcasting and for ham radio is WHERE to cut the low end and HOW MUCH money to spend on compression/processing. Many years ago, I sold processing systems for broadcast stations that cost upwards of $10K in today's dollars, and I helped the chief engineers of those stations adjust them. I suspect that W8JI and K4TAX have similar experience. Before I spent ANY money on an outboard box for a ham rig, I would first follow all of those elements of good engineering practice. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On the K3 what would be the approximate setting for 10dB compression? AB2TC - Knut Jim Brown-10 wrote: snip In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. snip again -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/W2IHY-8-band-equalizer-and-EQ-Plus-tp4959845p4964331.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Page 26 of D6 owner's manual, text states that the number displayed is the approximate compression in dB. Or 10 is 10. 73, Guy. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:56 PM, ab2tc ab...@arrl.net wrote: On the K3 what would be the approximate setting for 10dB compression? AB2TC - Knut Jim Brown-10 wrote: snip In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. snip again -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/W2IHY-8-band-equalizer-and-EQ-Plus-tp4959845p4964331.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
I have to agree strongly with Jim - for me, the K3 does not need any form of external processing or extras. I receive an unusually high number of unsolicited comments about the quality of my audio. In fact, here is the latest email I have received about it after working a few NA contacts on the 75/80m DX window: Hi Andy, I was talking to David, W6ANR today he informed me you are running K3 transceiver and you had the best audio he has ever heard from any K3. So I am asking if you could give a run down on all your setting as you have them on your radio that pertains to Audio so I can help my neighbor Bob, W9KNI get his dialed in. His sounds lousy and he has always been a CW man but has now been enjoying using the mic instead of the paddle. He has had comments that he need to dial in his audio so I told him I would help. SO maybe with all your setting etc I can have a good place to start as I am not to familiar with that radio. I hope your summer was a good for you? Here we are anxious for spring to arrive so I can get out and do some real work out in the yard and get the veggie garden started. Best 73, Rich K7ZV Here is my reply to Rich: Hi Rich, Great to hear from you - it has been a long time since we have worked on 80/75m. I haven't been very active lately, due to work and family commitments. I hope I am not going to disappoint anyone when I reveal my audio setup on the K3 as it is far from spectacular..hi hi. The fist mic I was using is a five dollar CB type that you could find at any hamfest (no kidding!). I have not adjusted the TX equalizer so it is still at the factory default (all flat). I do use the compressor, but only allow it to indicate between about 5-10dB on the meter. I also always make sure the ALC bargraph indication is well below the upper limit. For what it's worth, my mic gain is set to 23 and the compression setting is at 19. Not very fancy is it? I found the K3 to work well out of the box. As the old saying goes if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think this speaks for itself - nothing else required! Andy VK4KY -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/W2IHY-8-band-equalizer-and-EQ-Plus-tp4959845p4964917.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT), ab2tc wrote: On the K3 what would be the approximate setting for 10dB compression? Follow instructions in the K3 manual to set the meter to read compression. Then follow the instructions in the manual for first setting the mic gain without any compression, and then set the compression with the compression control. When you talk, you'll see the compression bouncing around as you talk. It will start sounding bad when it goes above 10dB on the hottest voice peaks. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Yes, and watch the ALC level while you are doing it. I found that you can increase the compression and not trip the 5-7 bars of ALC, but it will sound terrible. Stay below 10 dB of compression and under 5 bars of ALC for the smoothest sound and lack of splatter. FWIW. Mel, K6KBE --- On Mon, 4/26/10, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, April 26, 2010, 3:02 PM On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT), ab2tc wrote: On the K3 what would be the approximate setting for 10dB compression? Follow instructions in the K3 manual to set the meter to read compression. Then follow the instructions in the manual for first setting the mic gain without any compression, and then set the compression with the compression control. When you talk, you'll see the compression bouncing around as you talk. It will start sounding bad when it goes above 10dB on the hottest voice peaks. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
I am using a Heil Proset, IC element, Mic gain to LO, setting 35 and compression set at 20. With this I can not talk the CMP reading above 10 or the ALC reading above 7. I get good audio reports and just as importantly I get heard remarkably well by DX stations. AB2TC - Knut Jim Brown-10 wrote: On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT), ab2tc wrote: On the K3 what would be the approximate setting for 10dB compression? Follow instructions in the K3 manual to set the meter to read compression. Then follow the instructions in the manual for first setting the mic gain without any compression, and then set the compression with the compression control. When you talk, you'll see the compression bouncing around as you talk. It will start sounding bad when it goes above 10dB on the hottest voice peaks. 73, Jim Brown K9YC snip -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/W2IHY-8-band-equalizer-and-EQ-Plus-tp4959845p4965456.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Case in point. Just broke a huge pileup for 8R1AK/P. I am barefoot with a G5RV. AB2TC - Knut ab2tc wrote: I am using a Heil Proset, IC element, Mic gain to LO, setting 35 and compression set at 20. With this I can not talk the CMP reading above 10 or the ALC reading above 7. I get good audio reports and just as importantly I get heard remarkably well by DX stations. AB2TC - Knut -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/W2IHY-8-band-equalizer-and-EQ-Plus-tp4959845p4965602.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
I said it before and written it before, good audio has to do with a good mike and GOOD MIKE TECHNIQUE. The best mike money will buy and poor mike technique will result in poor audio. We use noise gates in the professional audio studio to create special effects. The noise gate used on ham radio to eliminate blower noise is a false since of secuirty for when the gate opens, along comes the noise with the voice. It only chops the noise in between words. It is still there with the voice. 73 Bob, K4TAX On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:18:01 +, Lance Collister wrote: It very effectively cuts out the background blower noise Some of the major causes of audible background noise are 1) working too far from the mic; 2) running the mic gain too high; 3) using too much compression/processing; and 4) not rolling off the low frequencies. In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. Indeed, the only difference between what's right for broadcasting and for ham radio is WHERE to cut the low end and HOW MUCH money to spend on compression/processing. Many years ago, I sold processing systems for broadcast stations that cost upwards of $10K in today's dollars, and I helped the chief engineers of those stations adjust them. I suspect that W8JI and K4TAX have similar experience. Before I spent ANY money on an outboard box for a ham rig, I would first follow all of those elements of good engineering practice. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Very well said Jim. 73 Bob, K4TAX On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:18:01 +, Lance Collister wrote: It very effectively cuts out the background blower noise Some of the major causes of audible background noise are 1) working too far from the mic; 2) running the mic gain too high; 3) using too much compression/processing; and 4) not rolling off the low frequencies. In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. Indeed, the only difference between what's right for broadcasting and for ham radio is WHERE to cut the low end and HOW MUCH money to spend on compression/processing. Many years ago, I sold processing systems for broadcast stations that cost upwards of $10K in today's dollars, and I helped the chief engineers of those stations adjust them. I suspect that W8JI and K4TAX have similar experience. Before I spent ANY money on an outboard box for a ham rig, I would first follow all of those elements of good engineering practice. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
And do remember, more compression brings up background noise between words by the amount of the compression value. Hence with 10 dB of compression, a background noise level that would normally produce and output of 1 watt will then sound like 10 watts of noise. 73 Bob, K4TAX On the K3 what would be the approximate setting for 10dB compression? AB2TC - Knut Jim Brown-10 wrote: snip In a noisy environment, it always helps to work close to the mic. It is ALWAYS good practice to use the minimum mic gain needed to get good modulation, use no more than about 10dB of compression/processing, and roll off the low frequency content. It's good engineering practice for the highest quality broadcast stations, and it's good practice for ham radio. snip again -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/W2IHY-8-band-equalizer-and-EQ-Plus-tp4959845p4964331.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:59:58 -0700, Ron Gould wrote: Has anyone tried either of these products out on a K3 and care to share their results compared to using the built in 8 band equalizer built into the K3. As a pro audio guy who has used hundreds of equalizers, I can tell you that the TX and RX in the K3 are all you need, and that adding anything outboard would be a waste of money. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
Has anyone tried either of these products out on a K3 and care to share their results compared to using the built in 8 band equalizer built into the K3. Even I don't have those boxes anymore I can tell that about a year and a half ago when I sold my ProIII to replace it for my actual K3,I kept the W2IHY 8 bands EQ and the companion EQ Plus which I used together with the ProIII. When I received the K3 having its builtin EQ flat I tried those two W2IHY boxes and had no sucess at all,only noise and distorsion was what I got,I ended up selling them up. As Jim said,the K3 has an excellent 8 bands TX EQ that will allow you to EQ any mic,also it has a builtin noise gate that works great,save your money and don't buy them. AD4C For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3 --- On Mon, 4/26/10, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, April 26, 2010, 1:28 AM On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:59:58 -0700, Ron Gould wrote: Has anyone tried either of these products out on a K3 and care to share their results compared to using the built in 8 band equalizer built into the K3. As a pro audio guy who has used hundreds of equalizers, I can tell you that the TX and RX in the K3 are all you need, and that adding anything outboard would be a waste of money. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
I too agree with Jim on this point. Myself, being a retired pro audio guy and used lots of microphones and EQ's and processors, I've not seen the need for EQ on any current production or model ham radios. Take something made back in the 50's or 60's or 70's and they likley could stand some help. Even today should one use a lousy mike on a new radio and then add compression, gating and EQ and you'll have a lousy sounding signal with lots of compression, gating and EQ. No amount of EQ will make the average hams' voice sound like Don Pardo. Microphone and microphone technique is the real secret to good sounding audio. Of course one must have the radio adjusted properly and thus not all knobs to the right to make the meter move higher. 73 Bob, K4TAX - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:59:58 -0700, Ron Gould wrote: Has anyone tried either of these products out on a K3 and care to share their results compared to using the built in 8 band equalizer built into the K3. As a pro audio guy who has used hundreds of equalizers, I can tell you that the TX and RX in the K3 are all you need, and that adding anything outboard would be a waste of money. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus
The only EQ Plus and W2IHY equipment I have heard on air to date have been little short of dreadful to my earsBut that's MY ears, and they are the only ones I have and the brains DSP is most likely not that crash hot either at my age. Having said that, Jim has hit the nail on the head, and he should know, of all people. I listened to a guy with an old Collins and the W2IHY etc...yep it sounded good..but it sure was wide let me tell you. Oh well, YMMV but I agree with Jim and Hactor et al, save your money, if you have the gear, then sell it off I guess. 73's Gary - VK4FD On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX rmcg...@blomand.netwrote: I too agree with Jim on this point. Myself, being a retired pro audio guy and used lots of microphones and EQ's and processors, I've not seen the need for EQ on any current production or model ham radios. Take something made back in the 50's or 60's or 70's and they likley could stand some help. Even today should one use a lousy mike on a new radio and then add compression, gating and EQ and you'll have a lousy sounding signal with lots of compression, gating and EQ. No amount of EQ will make the average hams' voice sound like Don Pardo. Microphone and microphone technique is the real secret to good sounding audio. Of course one must have the radio adjusted properly and thus not all knobs to the right to make the meter move higher. 73 Bob, K4TAX - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] W2IHY 8 band equalizer and EQ Plus On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:59:58 -0700, Ron Gould wrote: Has anyone tried either of these products out on a K3 and care to share their results compared to using the built in 8 band equalizer built into the K3. As a pro audio guy who has used hundreds of equalizers, I can tell you that the TX and RX in the K3 are all you need, and that adding anything outboard would be a waste of money. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Gary VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/ K3 #679 For everything else there's Mastercard!!! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
