Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:


Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:21:54 -0500
From: Gene Heskett 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 22:22:25 Peter C. Wallace wrote:


On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Jon Elson wrote:

Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:54:55 -0600
From: Jon Elson 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

On 03/03/2020 10:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson 

wrote:

Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?


https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-
15?start=0


So, the pid command-deriv was not used in the past?  Geez, that
could explain a LOT of issues with
servo tuning before the change.

I use feedback-deriv in my servo systems, would a non-functioning
command-deriv make that not
work right?

Jon



No, command-deriv is only used for the FF1 feedforward calculation


Humm, Peter, none of my stuff uses that pid.n.command-deriv input now,
but I have used FF1 in my stepper configs, so how about some examples of
correct net useage statements to set that up right, once and for all?



If its working for you I would just leave the PIDs command derivative 
pin unconnected so its calculated internally.




Thanks Peter.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 22:22:25 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Jon Elson wrote:
> > Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:54:55 -0600
> > From: Jon Elson 
> > Reply-To: EMC developers 
> > To: EMC developers 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix
> >
> > On 03/03/2020 10:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> >> On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson  
wrote:
> >>> Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?
> >>
> >> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-
> >>15?start=0
> >
> > So, the pid command-deriv was not used in the past?  Geez, that
> > could explain a LOT of issues with
> > servo tuning before the change.
> >
> > I use feedback-deriv in my servo systems, would a non-functioning
> > command-deriv make that not
> > work right?
> >
> > Jon

> No, command-deriv is only used for the FF1 feedforward calculation

Humm, Peter, none of my stuff uses that pid.n.command-deriv input now, 
but I have used FF1 in my stepper configs, so how about some examples of 
correct net useage statements to set that up right, once and for all?

Thanks Peter.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 21:54:55 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 03/03/2020 10:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson  
wrote:
> >> Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?
> >
> > https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-1
> >5?start=0
>
> So, the pid command-deriv was not used in the past?  Geez,
> that could explain a LOT of issues with
> servo tuning before the change.
>
> I use feedback-deriv in my servo systems, would a
> non-functioning command-deriv make that not
> work right?
>
> Jon
>
It sure screwed up my stepper systems that used it, following errors 
galore. From my TLM's *.hal file:

net x-vel-cmd  <=  joint.0.vel-cmd # => pid.x.command-deriv
It turns out there is no such signal source as a joint.n.vel-cmd from 
motion.

So one could break the noise injection path as above or put a # in front 
of the net command that constructs it, either way fixes it.

The symptoms were needing to use 1/2" or more FERROR settings. I have one 
axis still set at .5 for FERROR, but it is NOT even present in the 
hal file so its not even used!

Obviously I need to fix that before I do anything critical on TLM. And on 
the GO704 too probably. But that can wait till I have working spindle 
encoders on both the GO704, and the Sheldon. The GO704 should be done 
tomorrow as I've about got it converted from opto indexing to ATS-667 
watching a short piece of nail glued to the spindle for an index pulse. 
Major delay is waiting for jbkwik to set, which takes about a day. The 
optical I had built years ago, the disk came unbolted and sawed the 
opto's in 2. Since all I needed was the index to trigger rigid tapping, 
that is all I'm putting back in.  The A/B stuff is on the rear of the 
motor, and around 100x more accurate.

Based on what I found in my configs just now, I am guessing several we's 
have work to do to optimize that again.

Is there a procedure to do that?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Jon Elson wrote:


Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:54:55 -0600
From: Jon Elson 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

On 03/03/2020 10:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson  wrote:


Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-15?start=0

So, the pid command-deriv was not used in the past?  Geez, that could explain 
a LOT of issues with

servo tuning before the change.

I use feedback-deriv in my servo systems, would a non-functioning 
command-deriv make that not

work right?

Jon



No, command-deriv is only used for the FF1 feedforward calculation




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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Jon Elson]

Looking at the 2.7 docs for the PID component, there is no 
mention of a pid.n.command-deriv
pin.  There is a commandD and a commandDD which seem to be 
outputs available when the

debug mode is turned on.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Jon Elson]

On 03/03/2020 10:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson  wrote:


Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-15?start=0

So, the pid command-deriv was not used in the past?  Geez, 
that could explain a LOT of issues with

servo tuning before the change.

I use feedback-deriv in my servo systems, would a 
non-functioning command-deriv make that not

work right?

Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] Runtests

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 17:36:57 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 02:54, Bari  wrote:
> > Can you setup a serial console and let us know the output?
>
> As an easy half-way step I set up a terminal window showing tail -f
> /var/log/kern.log
>
> That doesn't show anything odd.
>
> 2.8 runs the linuxcnc script and all tests fine.
>
> Master runs halrun and hal-only tests fine, but the linuxcnc script,
> and any tests that run the linuxcnc script cause a hard lock.
>
> So I am a bit baffled.

I am too, wondering why you are watching kern.log. when far more data is 
output to syslog. The only problem with that is that by the time 
something important is spit out to syslog, its been logrotated away from 
tail by two or more days.  So rather than having the event on screen, 
you have to go hunting thru all the syslogs to find it. And by the .2 
version, its been compressed by logrotate. Either way its far less 
useful than it should be. We used to have a log called messages that 
told us what was going on, but we sure as hell don't have that now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] Runtests

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 02:54, Bari  wrote:

> Can you setup a serial console and let us know the output?


As an easy half-way step I set up a terminal window showing tail -f
/var/log/kern.log

That doesn't show anything odd.

2.8 runs the linuxcnc script and all tests fine.

Master runs halrun and hal-only tests fine, but the linuxcnc script, and
any tests that run the linuxcnc script cause a hard lock.

So I am a bit baffled.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Chris Morley]

reverting seems reasonable. In the long run why don't we change it from 'magic' 
to a switch - like a parameter to change the behavior?

Chris


From: andy pugh 
Sent: March 3, 2020 4:13 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

We are seeing a number of issues reported to the forum where the fix
to the PID command-deriv input is causing problems with existing
configurations that net that pin to a signal that is not otherwise
connected to a source.

Should we consider a 2.7.16 that reverts this fix, and push the actual
fix to 2.8? (where the config updater script would, maybe, be able to
do something clever with it.)


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 11:54:09 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson  wrote:
> > Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?
>
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-15?
>start=0

This thread is at least 2 years newer than the previous disconnect it fix 
I had to do in master.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 11:13:17 andy pugh wrote:

> We are seeing a number of issues reported to the forum where the fix
> to the PID command-deriv input is causing problems with existing
> configurations that net that pin to a signal that is not otherwise
> connected to a source.
>
> Should we consider a 2.7.16 that reverts this fix, and push the actual
> fix to 2.8? (where the config updater script would, maybe, be able to
> do something clever with it.)

Its been what, 2 years since you recommended we disconnect that, which I 
did like this, fixing my problems with something related to following 
errors. From TLM's .hal file:

net x-vel-cmd  <=  joint.0.vel-cmd # => pid.x.command-deriv
and
net z-vel-cmd  <=  joint.1.vel-cmd # => pid.z.command-deriv

I found those nets commented out in the GO704 configs

No pid's are used in the sheldon or 6040.  Should I be now?

Is there now a better way or was that an original stepconfig bug?

Their has been quite a bit of water under the bridge since then.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 16:50, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/38367-2-7-15?start=0

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Rene Hopf via Emc-developers]

> On 3. Mar 2020, at 17:49, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> On 03/03/2020 10:13 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> We are seeing a number of issues reported to the forum where the fix
>> to the PID command-deriv input is causing problems with existing
>> configurations that net that pin to a signal that is not otherwise
>> connected to a source.
>> 
>> Should we consider a 2.7.16 that reverts this fix, and push the actual
>> fix to 2.8? (where the config updater script would, maybe, be able to
>> do something clever with it.)
>> 
> I've had some reports of odd behavior of PID in very late builds, but didn't 
> have enough info
> to track it down.
> 
> Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?
> 
> (Hmm, why would somebody create a net for the command-deriv with no source?  
> Seems kind of
> odd.)

Pncconf and some default configs do that.

> 
> Jon
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Jon Elson]

On 03/03/2020 10:13 AM, andy pugh wrote:

We are seeing a number of issues reported to the forum where the fix
to the PID command-deriv input is causing problems with existing
configurations that net that pin to a signal that is not otherwise
connected to a source.

Should we consider a 2.7.16 that reverts this fix, and push the actual
fix to 2.8? (where the config updater script would, maybe, be able to
do something clever with it.)

I've had some reports of odd behavior of PID in very late 
builds, but didn't have enough info

to track it down.

Does anybody have a more specific case of how it is failing?

(Hmm, why would somebody create a net for the command-deriv 
with no source?  Seems kind of

odd.)

Jon


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[Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[andy pugh]

We are seeing a number of issues reported to the forum where the fix
to the PID command-deriv input is causing problems with existing
configurations that net that pin to a signal that is not otherwise
connected to a source.

Should we consider a 2.7.16 that reverts this fix, and push the actual
fix to 2.8? (where the config updater script would, maybe, be able to
do something clever with it.)


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] translate linuxcnc documentation into Chinese

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 03 March 2020 08:35:14 0x fff wrote:

> cool, So LinuxCNC can also run on Raspberry Pi 4?
>
Yes, I've been doing it for several months. Before that, an rpi3b for 
about 3 years.

click on the link in my sig, then add "lathe-stf" to the address  bar and 
hit return, then click on "linuxcnc4rpi4". There  you will find a README 
that should tell you how to install the preempt-rt kernel thats also 
there, and the debs for LinuxCNC, a sample jpeg screenshot showing what 
it looks like on my screen, and the config that runs a cnc converted 
Sheldon 11x54 lathe here. I started out with an rpi3b for about 3 years 
but it was a wee bit overworked, but the rpi4b only has to be pushed to 
800 MHz to do it very well. Because the interface card I used had gpio 
to throw away, quite a bit of control gingerbread has been added, like a 
pair of 100 ppr hand dials replacing the original hand cranks, and all 
the lathes power is controlled by LinuxCNC, so when I walk away it draws 
about 15 watts. Since LCNC is a better compound that a real one, there 
isn't one on the lathe. Bed wear on a 70 yo machine has been measured 
and compensated for by LinuxCNC, and for rigid tapping, the turn around 
overshoot at the bottom of a hole is measured and displayed so you can 
cut air for a reading, then substract that in your code, thereby 
stopping short of running into the bottom of a hole and breaking a $30 
tap off in the hole, and that not only costs money but takes a day to 
remove the broken tap (w/o damaging the threads) with an EDM setup.

My upload bandwidth is slow, but be me  guest.

> Bari  于2020年3月3日周二 下午3:41写道：
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I spent some time in China setting up a new business to make 3D
> > printers and other CNC machines. We actually had LinuxCNC running on
> > the Cubieboard2 and Cubieboard4
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubieboard back in 2014.
> >
> > On 3/2/20 8:07 AM, 0x fff wrote:
> > > hello, everyone.
> > >  I am a newcomer from China
> > >  I am very interested in this project, I now plan to translate
> > > its documentation into Chinese, I will start with "getting
> > > started" If I encounter difficulties in the translation process,
> > > hope to get everyone's help
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> > ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] translate linuxcnc documentation into Chinese

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 13:37, 0x fff  wrote:
>
> cool, So LinuxCNC can also run on Raspberry Pi 4?

Yes. The Pi4 has the ethernet port  in the PCI bus not the USB bus, so
ethernet-connected hardware works.
There is also the choice of using SPI-connected hardware (Mesa 7c80
for example) or using the GPIO directly (hal_pi_gpio driver)


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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