Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 May 2020 19:41:18 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 17 May 2020 at 00:07, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > It, when free, also has half a degree of backlash. The adjuster
> > screw Andy told me about is locked by a screw thru the front face
> > that can only be accessed thru an index hole in the plate behind
> > this dummy faceplate, so...
>
> Doesn't it screw on to the spindle nose?

Looks like it does, but its locked on tighter than ?
 
> Anyway, unless the backlash is visible axial float in the worm shaft,
> it probably isn't that.

Feels like worm to worm gear clearance, probably because it was adjusted 
while sitting on some swarf. I can move the handle about 3/4" before the 
spindle moves.  It should adjust out, once I clean it out. 

Right now that plate is 5 lbs of useless weight and its hiding the 
endplay screws lock screw.  And sort of drilling a dimple in the edge, 
to place a rod into, the whack the side of the rod to loosen it, there 
appears to be no wrench flats on the hub or any other way to get a 
really thin pair of channel locks on the hub. It ought to have spanner 
pin sockets in its face or some more obvious way to remove it.

For over $600 brand new, I am less than impressed. I've got 2 needles of 
swarf in my left hand now from trying to handle the thing. 

Thanks Andy

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 at 00:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> It, when free, also has half a degree of backlash. The adjuster screw
> Andy told me about is locked by a screw thru the front face that can
> only be accessed thru an index hole in the plate behind this dummy
> faceplate, so...

Doesn't it screw on to the spindle nose?

Anyway, unless the backlash is visible axial float in the worm shaft,
it probably isn't that.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 15 May 2020 16:43:50 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Friday 15 May 2020 14:39:12 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > > On Thursday 14 May 2020 14:57:59 Chris Morley wrote:
> > > > Well I dare say that a VFD counts as hardware.
> > > > I use serial data from my VFD for spindle RPM display.
> > > >
> > > > My point was though that to get actual RPM back to a gui you
> > > > pretty much use HAL and can't use NML (currently anyways).
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the vfd's I have bought are totally w/o even the
> > > footprint for a serial port on the pcb's.  And yes, I've looked.
> >
> > The motor have encoder or some other kind of rotational sensor?
>
> Not that I have been able to find, so I have a fudged up drive to the
> tach, calibrated so wide open at 400 hertz is 24k. I think the motor
> is a hard armature version meaning that up till it slips and stops,
> its running synchronous. I finally found the low speed current
> controls, difficult in the poor chinglish manual and set them up for
> nameplate FLA at low speed and it now has phenomenal torque at 500
> rpms and less.  I'm more than happy with that.
>
> And just now I got a refund from the German motor mount maker that I
> was going use as a nema23 mount on the back of my BS-1 indexer, seems
> they can't ship to the US because of Covid19.  And thats the most
> compact mount I could find. Might have to make my own.  I did manage
> to get that BS-1 up onto the mills table today, but once I had done
> that, and verified my mill had power enough to move with that 80kg on
> its table, I found I can't rotate it but about 5 degrees with the
> cranks despite loosening the lock levers. No idea whats wrong. But
> I've finally got it up off the floor where I can work with it.
>
And after dinner I had an excuse to go get the mail and then play with 
it, and its obviously full of swarf, so I'm going to have to take it 
apart and see if I can get it cleaned out.

It, when free, also has half a degree of backlash. The adjuster screw 
Andy told me about is locked by a screw thru the front face that can 
only be accessed thru an index hole in the plate behind this dummy 
faceplate, so...

I've skid blowed the edge of that dummy faceplate several dozen whacks 
with an 8oz deadblow hammer, w/o loosening it so the chuck can be 
mounted, does anybody have a magic incantation that will loosen that 
puppy?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 15 May 2020 14:39:12 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> > On Thursday 14 May 2020 14:57:59 Chris Morley wrote:
> > > Well I dare say that a VFD counts as hardware.
> > > I use serial data from my VFD for spindle RPM display.
> > >
> > > My point was though that to get actual RPM back to a gui you
> > > pretty much use HAL and can't use NML (currently anyways).
> > >
> > > Chris
> >
> > Unfortunately, the vfd's I have bought are totally w/o even the
> > footprint for a serial port on the pcb's.  And yes, I've looked.
>
> The motor have encoder or some other kind of rotational sensor?
>
Not that I have been able to find, so I have a fudged up drive to the 
tach, calibrated so wide open at 400 hertz is 24k. I think the motor is 
a hard armature version meaning that up till it slips and stops, its 
running synchronous. I finally found the low speed current controls, 
difficult in the poor chinglish manual and set them up for nameplate FLA 
at low speed and it now has phenomenal torque at 500 rpms and less.  I'm 
more than happy with that.

And just now I got a refund from the German motor mount maker that I was 
going use as a nema23 mount on the back of my BS-1 indexer, seems they 
can't ship to the US because of Covid19.  And thats the most compact 
mount I could find. Might have to make my own.  I did manage to get that 
BS-1 up onto the mills table today, but once I had done that, and 
verified my mill had power enough to move with that 80kg on its table, I 
found I can't rotate it but about 5 degrees with the cranks despite 
loosening the lock levers. No idea whats wrong. But I've finally got it 
up off the floor where I can work with it.


>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On Thursday 14 May 2020 14:57:59 Chris Morley wrote:
> 
> > Well I dare say that a VFD counts as hardware.
> > I use serial data from my VFD for spindle RPM display.
> >
> > My point was though that to get actual RPM back to a gui you pretty
> > much use HAL and can't use NML (currently anyways).
> >
> > Chris
> 
> Unfortunately, the vfd's I have bought are totally w/o even the footprint 
> for a serial port on the pcb's.  And yes, I've looked.

The motor have encoder or some other kind of rotational sensor?


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Reinhard]

Hi Chris,

thanks again for the trigger. I don't know, what happened ...

> As soon as I start a program with halaccess without the help of halcmd, it
> crashes. And I have no idea why. 

I stil don't have any idea - but same crashing code now works without 
problems. Just recompiled it. What Surprise!
May be I was trapped by my dying pc?

Any way - whoohoo - hal: here I come ;)


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Reinhard]

Hi Chris,

thanks a lot for your hints.
I'll follow your advices asap.

Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 14 May 2020 14:57:59 Chris Morley wrote:

> Well I dare say that a VFD counts as hardware.
> I use serial data from my VFD for spindle RPM display.
>
> My point was though that to get actual RPM back to a gui you pretty
> much use HAL and can't use NML (currently anyways).
>
> Chris

Unfortunately, the vfd's I have bought are totally w/o even the footprint 
for a serial port on the pcb's.  And yes, I've looked.
> 
> From: Gene Heskett 
> Sent: May 14, 2020 5:55 PM
> To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
>  Subject: Re: [Emc-developers]
> spindle status
>
> On Thursday 14 May 2020 13:22:18 Chris Morley wrote:
> > There is no 'actual spindle RPM' in a NML message.
> > You must use HAL for that and in fact it's possible that that is not
> > available if there is no spindle feedback in hardware.
>
> There is, and their isn't if you don't have an encoder. My vfd claims
> to have an output that represents speed, but its an analog value I've
> not found on the term strip.  And, the 7i76D has only logic inputs
> except for the first 4 which are about 36 volts full scale.  So I
> fudge in hal to drive the tach. But I also believe that this spindle
> motor is a hard armature model, meaning its synchronous as the revs
> don't sag even when cutting heavily. So one could cobble up something
> with more hardware but this worked well enough to tell the thing is
> supposed to be running as its very quiet.
>
> I'd be interested if seeing what someone else has done that solved the
> spindle revs display problem a different way when there isn't an
> encoder.
>
> > Chris
> >
> > 
> > From: Reinhard 
> > Sent: May 14, 2020 7:34 AM
> > To: myd...@gmx.de ; EMC developers
> >  Subject: Re: [Emc-developers]
> > spindle status
> >
> > Hi Daniel,
> >
> > thanks for the info.
> >
> > On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:28:57 CEST mydani wrote:
> > > if you have an encoder installed, in the encoder you should find a
> > > velocity / velocity-rpm pin with the raw encoder values.
> > > They should be linked to spindle.0.speed-in.
> >
> > That will be useful for hardware setup, but where can I read the
> > current rpm from nml-status?
> >
> > cheers Reinhard
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Chris Morley]

python embedded in linuxcnc isn't directly connected to the HAL module library.
The embedded python is for remap and is optional.
I suggested the HAL module because it's written in C++ which I assume you do 
know.
It's a stand alone module for communicating with HAL's shared memory.

There are also many components that connect to HAL's shared memory I'd suggest 
the C based drivers as comp hides the details. these can be used as reference 
for the basic premise - some are well commented.

Chris

From: Reinhard 
Sent: May 14, 2020 7:22 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

Hi Chris,

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 21:01:50 CEST Chris Morley wrote:
> reading and writing HAL is super useful for GUIs. python's HAL module would
> be a good source for ideas. it's C++ based. halcmd is C and might  be a
> little easier to digest.

My problem is, that I was able to build a hal-component. I did a dummy
toolchanger, that was pretty easy. And it worked, as long as I started it with
halcmd.
As soon as I start a program with halaccess without the help of halcmd, it
crashes. And I have no idea why. All dev-tools I know don't really help on it.

I would like to access hal from a library, that is not in the halcmd
environment, like I did for nml-layer. But I don't know, how to do that.
Python isn't any help for me, as I don't know Python and python is embedded in
Linuxcnc, so I don't know the startup environment too.

May be I have to dive into halcmd.

Next timeslot will be reserved for research :)


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status --> spindle revs display

[N]

> ...
> I'd be interested if seeing what someone else has done that solved the 
> spindle revs display problem a different way when there isn't an 
> encoder.

Looking into my configuration file I see gladevcp pins. Used glade, the old 
version must be used to draw the panels and imported them in the .ini file, may 
provide example if needed.

It visualize among others analog values so there should be no problem to show 
spindle revs if you have encoder or other position or revolution sensor which 
you are able to access from the .hal file.

Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Reinhard]

Hi Chris,

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 21:01:50 CEST Chris Morley wrote:
> reading and writing HAL is super useful for GUIs. python's HAL module would
> be a good source for ideas. it's C++ based. halcmd is C and might  be a
> little easier to digest.

My problem is, that I was able to build a hal-component. I did a dummy 
toolchanger, that was pretty easy. And it worked, as long as I started it with 
halcmd.
As soon as I start a program with halaccess without the help of halcmd, it 
crashes. And I have no idea why. All dev-tools I know don't really help on it.

I would like to access hal from a library, that is not in the halcmd 
environment, like I did for nml-layer. But I don't know, how to do that.
Python isn't any help for me, as I don't know Python and python is embedded in 
Linuxcnc, so I don't know the startup environment too.

May be I have to dive into halcmd. 

Next timeslot will be reserved for research :)


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Chris Morley]

reading and writing HAL is super useful for GUIs. python's HAL module would be 
a good source for ideas.
it's C++ based. halcmd is C and might  be a little easier to digest.

Chris


From: Reinhard 
Sent: May 14, 2020 6:19 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

Hi Chris,

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 19:22:18 CEST Chris Morley wrote:
> There is no 'actual spindle RPM' in a NML message.
> You must use HAL for that ...

Yes, that's what I was afraid about.

Currently I'm not able to use hal in my app.
Have to do some research first, to find out, whether I'm willing to head that
challenge.

cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Chris Morley]

Well I dare say that a VFD counts as hardware.
I use serial data from my VFD for spindle RPM display.

My point was though that to get actual RPM back to a gui you pretty much use 
HAL and can't use NML (currently anyways).

Chris

From: Gene Heskett 
Sent: May 14, 2020 5:55 PM
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

On Thursday 14 May 2020 13:22:18 Chris Morley wrote:

> There is no 'actual spindle RPM' in a NML message.
> You must use HAL for that and in fact it's possible that that is not
> available if there is no spindle feedback in hardware.
>
There is, and their isn't if you don't have an encoder. My vfd claims to
have an output that represents speed, but its an analog value I've not
found on the term strip.  And, the 7i76D has only logic inputs except
for the first 4 which are about 36 volts full scale.  So I fudge in hal
to drive the tach. But I also believe that this spindle motor is a hard
armature model, meaning its synchronous as the revs don't sag even when
cutting heavily. So one could cobble up something with more hardware but
this worked well enough to tell the thing is supposed to be running as
its very quiet.

I'd be interested if seeing what someone else has done that solved the
spindle revs display problem a different way when there isn't an
encoder.

> Chris
>
> 
> From: Reinhard 
> Sent: May 14, 2020 7:34 AM
> To: myd...@gmx.de ; EMC developers
>  Subject: Re: [Emc-developers]
> spindle status
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> thanks for the info.
>
> On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:28:57 CEST mydani wrote:
> > if you have an encoder installed, in the encoder you should find a
> > velocity / velocity-rpm pin with the raw encoder values.
> > They should be linked to spindle.0.speed-in.
>
> That will be useful for hardware setup, but where can I read the
> current rpm from nml-status?
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Reinhard]

Hi Chris,

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 19:22:18 CEST Chris Morley wrote:
> There is no 'actual spindle RPM' in a NML message.
> You must use HAL for that ...

Yes, that's what I was afraid about.

Currently I'm not able to use hal in my app.
Have to do some research first, to find out, whether I'm willing to head that 
challenge.

cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 14 May 2020 13:22:18 Chris Morley wrote:

> There is no 'actual spindle RPM' in a NML message.
> You must use HAL for that and in fact it's possible that that is not
> available if there is no spindle feedback in hardware.
>
There is, and their isn't if you don't have an encoder. My vfd claims to 
have an output that represents speed, but its an analog value I've not 
found on the term strip.  And, the 7i76D has only logic inputs except 
for the first 4 which are about 36 volts full scale.  So I fudge in hal 
to drive the tach. But I also believe that this spindle motor is a hard 
armature model, meaning its synchronous as the revs don't sag even when 
cutting heavily. So one could cobble up something with more hardware but 
this worked well enough to tell the thing is supposed to be running as 
its very quiet.

I'd be interested if seeing what someone else has done that solved the 
spindle revs display problem a different way when there isn't an 
encoder.

> Chris
>
> 
> From: Reinhard 
> Sent: May 14, 2020 7:34 AM
> To: myd...@gmx.de ; EMC developers
>  Subject: Re: [Emc-developers]
> spindle status
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> thanks for the info.
>
> On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:28:57 CEST mydani wrote:
> > if you have an encoder installed, in the encoder you should find a
> > velocity / velocity-rpm pin with the raw encoder values.
> > They should be linked to spindle.0.speed-in.
>
> That will be useful for hardware setup, but where can I read the
> current rpm from nml-status?
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Chris Morley]

There is no 'actual spindle RPM' in a NML message.
You must use HAL for that and in fact it's possible that that is not available 
if there is no spindle feedback in hardware.

Chris


From: Reinhard 
Sent: May 14, 2020 7:34 AM
To: myd...@gmx.de ; EMC developers 

Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

Hi Daniel,

thanks for the info.

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:28:57 CEST mydani wrote:
> if you have an encoder installed, in the encoder you should find a velocity
> / velocity-rpm pin with the raw encoder values.
> They should be linked to spindle.0.speed-in.

That will be useful for hardware setup, but where can I read the current rpm
from nml-status?

cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 14 May 2020 04:07:25 Reinhard wrote:

> Hi Gene,
>
> On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:47:01 CEST Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 14 May 2020 03:06:41 Reinhard wrote:
> > > P.S.: by the way - what does the css in spindlestatus mean?
> >
> > Constant Surface Speed, where the rpms are modified upwards as the
> > radius gets smaller.
>
> Oh, thanks a lot!
>
> Didn't know the shortcut in english. With full words its clear.
> So it is G96 on lathe?
>
I think so. See the Documentation pdf for sure, and for how to issue the 
command as it takes several arguments. Its in the programming chapter.

Proper operation of coarse demands that 0.000 radius occurs at exactly 
the center of the work. But while I have used it, I can't say as to 
whether this 0.000 can be set by a touch off, or if the homeing settings 
rule. 

Since tooling offsets vary with the tool and post settings, I've always 
assumed the DRO offset shown in the axis backplot window, subject to 
touch-off corrections was the controlling variable, so YMMV.

> cheers Reinhard

Stay safe and well. As one sig I saw recently says, someday the world 
might need a hero and it might be you.  Be ready.
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Reinhard]

Hi Gene,

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:47:01 CEST Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 14 May 2020 03:06:41 Reinhard wrote:
> > P.S.: by the way - what does the css in spindlestatus mean?
> 
> Constant Surface Speed, where the rpms are modified upwards as the radius
> gets smaller.

Oh, thanks a lot! 

Didn't know the shortcut in english. With full words its clear.
So it is G96 on lathe?

cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 14 May 2020 03:06:41 Reinhard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I played with the override controls and wonder, if the override scale
> is used at spindle rotation?
> The speed value does not change on altering scale value. Is the
> current spindle speed available as for feed or rapid feed values?
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
> P.S.: by the way - what does the css in spindlestatus mean?
>
Constant Surface Speed, where the rpms are modified upwards as the radius  
gets smaller.
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[Reinhard]

Hi Daniel,

thanks for the info.

On Donnerstag, 14. Mai 2020, 09:28:57 CEST mydani wrote:
> if you have an encoder installed, in the encoder you should find a velocity
> / velocity-rpm pin with the raw encoder values.
> They should be linked to spindle.0.speed-in.

That will be useful for hardware setup, but where can I read the current rpm 
from nml-status?

cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] spindle status

[mydani]

Hi Reinhard,

if you have an encoder installed, in the encoder you should find a velocity
/ velocity-rpm pin with the raw encoder values.
They should be linked to spindle.0.speed-in.

Regards,
Daniel





Am Do., 14. Mai 2020 um 09:07 Uhr schrieb Reinhard <
reinha...@schwarzrot-design.de>:

> Hi,
>
> I played with the override controls and wonder, if the override scale is
> used
> at spindle rotation?
> The speed value does not change on altering scale value. Is the current
> spindle speed available as for feed or rapid feed values?
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
> P.S.: by the way - what does the css in spindlestatus mean?
>
>
>
>
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>

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