EMC Directives and Norway
Compliance colleagues: I am working with a Canadian customer who is exporting satellite equipment to Europe. In reviewing the Mutual Recognition Agreement (MRA) between Canada and the EC, I noted Norway, along with a couple of other European countries do not indicate a designated authority for the designation of Conformity Assessment Bodies (CAB) in their countries. With other countries (Italy, France, UK etc..) in the EC, it is my understanding we can test for conformity using an approved CAB in Canada in accordance to the MRA, then the equipment can be CE marked. Would this mean compliance to the EMC Directive demonstrated by testing by a CAB located in Canada does not give presumption of conformity for Norway? I also understand the Canadian CAB may also issue type-examination certificates for radio transmitters to be placed in the European Community. Is there a different set of rules for placing radio transmitters in Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland? Any insights on this would be greatly appreciated. Dan Kwok Intetron Consulting Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic
Just to further muddy the waters: During a previous life running a test house, we used yet another interpretation. The highest fundamental was the highest frequency brought out of any chip. If a separate VCO distributed 10x of the crystal to other chips, 10x was the number. If the multiplier was purely internal to a part like a lot of CPUs and display chips, the crystal frequency was the highest. Brent DeWitt Datex-Ohmeda Louisville, CO John Harrington jharring...@ktlcanada.com@majordomo.ieee.org on 08/02/2001 01:42:25 PM Please respond to John Harrington jharring...@ktlcanada.com Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Gary, Amund We have always chosen the highest fundamental frequency as the highest original frequency generated, normally a crystal or other oscillator. Frequencies derived from the fundamental, via multipliers etc, are not considered as fundamental. John Harrington RF Group Manager Nemko Canada -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com To: 'am...@westin.org' am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:59 AM Subject: RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Interesting question and there is a corollary to it. If a crystal oscillator is stepped up in frequency, with PLL circuitry for example, now what is the highest frequency. My current opinion is that for Amund's question it is the crystal frequency, and to mine, it is the PLL frequency. IN both cases they represent the highest repetitive clock speed or digitally generated frequency. Interested in seeing the other responses. Gary -Original Message- From: am...@westin.org [mailto:am...@westin.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:19 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Dear members, FCC 2.1057 is about radiated emission. They say :If the equipment operates below 10GHz: to the tenth harmonic of the highest fundamental frequency or to 40 GHz, whichever is lower. I ask: Highest fundamental frequency, is it the crystall oscillator with highest frequency or is it the highest operating frequency within the EUT (after mixing, muliplier, etc..) ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at:
RE: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
Ah, you guys have about 10/15 years on me... I remember the Motorola Quasar 'works in a drawer'. When they didnt work, they were hard to fix.. Zenith had the motto 'the quality goes in before the name goes on'. They really were pretty good. RCA had the best chassis, but the grounds always rattled loose on the corners of the pcb's. I was a genius at fixing these with a soldering gun -customers loved me, much to the disdain of the shop's $39.95 bench fee... ROUND CRT's (kinescope) 'nuff said. Curtis Mathis was a rebadged RCA chassis in a nice, expensive wood box (I cant recall the RCA chassis #...'105'?) I really hated those 'combo' sets with stereo --500lbs!! eight feet long and always in the basement w/fried flyback.. The worst TV's in North America were the 'packard-bell' ilk...that great tradition carried on in their pc's.. Admiral's were ok -as long as you didnt twiddle out the ferrite core thingy's... dog hair + vacuum tubes = fuzz w/glass bumps. dim bulbs..stinky tv..pops and snaps. crt 'brighteners' -sorry, but your pix toob is kaput, now..its just a BIG radio w/4 channels.. Globar resistor, or at least a shadow of where it WAS.. Ah yes, the blissful aroma of hot tubes, ozone and fried flybacks..those were the days.. I was sooo good that I retired after 10 months.. -kyle =:) -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:45 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ? Hi Terry: I don't recall the Sony but do recall the Philco and that Zenith held out with the `hand wired' chassis. Now that you mention it... I do indeed recall that campaign. But, I did not -- then -- realize the context. Today, looking back, that campaign was really quite absurd! But it worked! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic
Thanks, Jack. This was my opinion as well, but I've heard and seen others claiming just the opposite, In the case of my equipment we have a 125 MHz clock that is PLL'd up to 1.25Ghz for some optics. I have always tested to 6.5 GHz, but even though it seems clear I've had dissenting discussions. Thanks Gary -Original Message- From: Cook, Jack [mailto:jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 1:27 PM To: 'John Harrington'; Gary McInturff Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic So far, I haven't seen anyone quote the actual wording in FCC Part 15. Here it is, from the table in para. 15.33 (4). Highest frequency generated or used in the device or on which the device operates or tunes (MHz) It doesn't appear to concern itself with *how* the signal is generated (ocillator, PLL, etc.) or whether it's a fundamental or not. So, it seems clear enough to me. Or maybe I'm missing something. Regards, Jack Xerox EMC --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic
So far, I haven't seen anyone quote the actual wording in FCC Part 15. Here it is, from the table in para. 15.33 (4). Highest frequency generated or used in the device or on which the device operates or tunes (MHz) It doesn't appear to concern itself with *how* the signal is generated (ocillator, PLL, etc.) or whether it's a fundamental or not. So, it seems clear enough to me. Or maybe I'm missing something. Regards, Jack Xerox EMC --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic
In my experience, I have always used the highest clock generated within the device!! i.e. if a 66MHz (external) clock is taken in to a processor and a PLL then multiplies up by 8 the highest fundamental is 528MHz. The PLL circuitry is generating a free running clock [with fast rise/fall edges] albeit within the processor and the higher clock (and harmonics thereof) can couple on to the other IO entering/exiting the processor. The possibility of the processor itself being resonant at the higher harmonics also increases. Andy White, Senior EMC Engineer, Ericsson Wireless Communications Inc. San Diego, CA 92121 Tel 858 332 6214 / 877 877 7799 ext 26214 Fax 858 332 7311 e-mail andy.wh...@ericsson.com -Original Message- From: John Harrington [mailto:jharring...@ktlcanada.com] Sent: 02 August 2001 12:42 To: Gary McInturff Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Gary, Amund We have always chosen the highest fundamental frequency as the highest original frequency generated, normally a crystal or other oscillator. Frequencies derived from the fundamental, via multipliers etc, are not considered as fundamental. John Harrington RF Group Manager Nemko Canada -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com To: 'am...@westin.org' am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:59 AM Subject: RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Interesting question and there is a corollary to it. If a crystal oscillator is stepped up in frequency, with PLL circuitry for example, now what is the highest frequency. My current opinion is that for Amund's question it is the crystal frequency, and to mine, it is the PLL frequency. IN both cases they represent the highest repetitive clock speed or digitally generated frequency. Interested in seeing the other responses. Gary -Original Message- From: am...@westin.org [mailto:am...@westin.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:19 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Dear members, FCC 2.1057 is about radiated emission. They say :If the equipment operates below 10GHz: to the tenth harmonic of the highest fundamental frequency or to 40 GHz, whichever is lower. I ask: Highest fundamental frequency, is it the crystall oscillator with highest frequency or is it the highest operating frequency within the EUT (after mixing, muliplier, etc..) ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual
RE: Mains fusing
Thank You so much Rich, Patricia, Mike, Jim, Ed, et al; Please do continue to contribute your wisdom to this forum. I spoke with my LES engineer and good friend at UL. [a good friend at UL is a handy thing!] Someday I should expound on the usefulness of proper care and feeding of your agency engineer.. In our discussions, I pointed out the grey area in 1950 2.6.2 2.7.4 [B] related to the conditions of applicability (PAG), and that this modular product is deployed in a rack mount environment where the mains cord is terminated in a polarized coupler (and disconnect device) making it nearly impossible to reverse the mains. In addition, the rack mount cabinet provides mains distribution to this module through double side breakers. I built my case on these two items and believe I can get an approval upon review. I'm told the remaining problem with this UPS is it fails 61000-4-5 in our lab, although it passes 801-5, and that it also fails conducted emissions when using QP-Avg techniques. I could be in for engineering a fire enclosure to contain wiring, coupler, filter, suppressor, and while in the area, a double side breaker -and of course, the attendant investigative redo. Normally, this would be good reason for vendor rejection, or at least a public drubbing in this forum, but we are committed for the short term to use this vendor's product and I cannot afford to risk any relationships -for now. The decision was never mine to make. And now we are in a familiar loop where the lab is used to re-engineer a vendor's product that is CE marked. Doh!! Statue today, pigeon yesterday... Thanks again, kyle my words, my opinions/mania...etc. -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:30 PM To: keh...@lsil.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Mains fusing Hi Kyle: I have a new product that includes an off the shelf UPS that is rated for 230V ac operation and has an internal single pole circuit breaker on the mains inlet. We want to target this product world-wide. The UPS presently is CB and certified to EN60950 european only. For North America we want it to have UL1950, and to obtain this, UL is demanding the breaker be double pole. This is an unusual situation. On the one hand, the UPS, with single-pole overcurrent protection, has a CB to EN 60950 for use in Europe where most mains supply plug configurations are non-polar. There is no control that the overcurrent protection will be in the live conductor. On the other hand, the UPS, with single-pole overcurrent protection, is denied UL certification for use in the North America where UL requires polarization of both the UPS overcurrent protection and the mains supply plug configuration. There is a reasonable control that the overcurrent protection will be in the live conductor. There is indeed something wrong with this picture. My guess is that the certification engineer is invoking Table 1, Case B (UL 1950, 3rd). (As someone had already suggested, you should verify this with your certification engineer.) Probably, this is because he knows that you are marketing your product worldwide. Since you have a CB, you are qualified for Case B independent of your UL certification. You should point this out to your certification engineer. I would ask UL to investigate the product under Case A. UL can, at its discretion, investigate products to specific provisions of their standard. UL can invoke paragraph D of the UL foreword to the standard. You can even ask UL to so note this construction in the UL report. In my experience, these proposals should get you around this situation. If you are still unable to use the single-pole overcurrent protection, I would go to another NRTL. Good luck, and best regards, Rich
RE: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
Rich, Not really absurd given the quality of some of the board construction materials I saw in those early days. For one thing, the materials did not suffer heat well for very long (paper/phenolic?) - remember they were still using tubes or later a mix of tubes semi's. I also worked in TV shops during school and can remember thoroughly cooked PCB materials. Regards, Jack Xerox EMC -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:45 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ? Hi Terry: I don't recall the Sony but do recall the Philco and that Zenith held out with the `hand wired' chassis. Now that you mention it... I do indeed recall that campaign. But, I did not -- then -- realize the context. Today, looking back, that campaign was really quite absurd! But it worked! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic
Gary, Amund We have always chosen the highest fundamental frequency as the highest original frequency generated, normally a crystal or other oscillator. Frequencies derived from the fundamental, via multipliers etc, are not considered as fundamental. John Harrington RF Group Manager Nemko Canada -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com To: 'am...@westin.org' am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:59 AM Subject: RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Interesting question and there is a corollary to it. If a crystal oscillator is stepped up in frequency, with PLL circuitry for example, now what is the highest frequency. My current opinion is that for Amund's question it is the crystal frequency, and to mine, it is the PLL frequency. IN both cases they represent the highest repetitive clock speed or digitally generated frequency. Interested in seeing the other responses. Gary -Original Message- From: am...@westin.org [mailto:am...@westin.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:19 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Dear members, FCC 2.1057 is about radiated emission. They say :If the equipment operates below 10GHz: to the tenth harmonic of the highest fundamental frequency or to 40 GHz, whichever is lower. I ask: Highest fundamental frequency, is it the crystall oscillator with highest frequency or is it the highest operating frequency within the EUT (after mixing, muliplier, etc..) ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ESD - time between successive discharges
If the product contains mechanical devices such as disk, floppy, DVD etc and has s/w that has operation cycle times in the neighborhood of 1s or so then the 0.1 to 10 s may have very different results at different points in that timing range. --- Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com wrote: ESD susceptibility has a couple of components. Simplistically, don't let it happen or try to direct the energy where you want it, and does the event happen at just the right (wrong?) time. Just as a critical gate is changing states for example. Given the relative rate that modern processors are running 800 Mhz - 1 Ghz, I don't know that increasing the discharge rate from a second to 20 or even 50 times a second really increases your ability to capture one of these states. Having said that, I don't really have a quarrel with increasing the rates for investigative purposes, I have done it myself. However, I think you should keep in mind the heating of silicon junctions etc, from the rapid discharge rates. Even non-critical gates can be artificially damaged by rapid pulses. I can't think of a case when an ESD discharge (not lightning etc) naturally occurs at very high rates. I'd be interested in examples if it does occur. Not a bad diagnostic tool but I wouldn't care to see higher rates implemented in standards. Gary (You can't expect much for two cents these days) -Original Message- From: HALL,KEN (HP-Roseville,ex1) [mailto:ken_h...@hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:53 AM To: 'Michael Hopkins'; am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: AGUILAR,LONNIE (HP-Roseville,ex1); 'Pommerenke, David' Subject: RE: ESD - time between successive discharges Hello all, If I remember correctly the one shot/second was to allow older simulators time to recharge. We believe that the probability of identifying an ESD susceptible product is increased dramatically when subjecting the product to continuous discharges. Ken Hall Lonnie please file. Thanks, Ken -Original Message- From: Michael Hopkins [mailto:mhopk...@thermokeytek.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:48 AM To: am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ESD - time between successive discharges Seems to me the time between discharges is the same as the time between pulses (I believe that was the intent). I don't have the standard in front of me, but I think the max rate was 1/second, which means you could go slower. In most tests I've seen, the several discharges at one point are run at the 1/second rate, but then there could be several seconds or more between the discharges at that point and the discharges at the next point. At least one company actually runs tests at much higher discharge rates and with many more shots/point than IEC recommends (the new draft of ANSI C63.16 goes to 50 shots/per point). Michael Hopkins Thermo KeyTek - Original Message - From: am...@westin.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: ESD - time between successive discharges Dear members, From IEC61000-4-2 and several EN-product standards, they specify the time between successive discharges to be at least 1 second. But what is the maximum time between each pulse ? I can not see that it is stated in any standards. I guess the test labs use 1 pulse pr second. I feel that the pulse rate can have influences on the EUT performance, so 1 second compared to 3-5 seconds might be the difference between PASS and FAIL. Any suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael
Re: EM-Field Head Protection
Too bad they don't give the resonant frequency of such a device. It could have interesting applications for university lectures. ( in the near field ). Ralph Cameron EMC Consulting and Suppression of Consumer Electronics (After sale) - Original Message - From: Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: EM-Field Head Protection Finally, there's a site with construction details and usage suggestions, for aluminum foil EM-field head protectors. Design, metallurgy and history of the subject are also covered. http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
Rich: The reason Zenith was using the `hand wired' promo was the `cold' and overheated PC boards especially the tube sockets that unsoldered themselves or when the trace separated from the board. This takes me back to the creapage point. I remember cutting away base board material, actually the carbon results, when that was the only solution other then scrapping the product. I also remember `hand wiring' repairs to PCAs and the customer wishing they had purchased a `hand wired' set. Growing pains of an industry that has been taken for granted for many years. But those experiences come in handy when I recommend to the system designer `remember to read the conditions of acceptability of the power supplies! What is the pollution Degree?' Terry Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com 08/02/01 01:45PM Hi Terry: I don't recall the Sony but do recall the Philco and that Zenith held out with the `hand wired' chassis. Now that you mention it... I do indeed recall that campaign. But, I did not -- then -- realize the context. Today, looking back, that campaign was really quite absurd! But it worked! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ESD - time between successive discharges
ESD susceptibility has a couple of components. Simplistically, don't let it happen or try to direct the energy where you want it, and does the event happen at just the right (wrong?) time. Just as a critical gate is changing states for example. Given the relative rate that modern processors are running 800 Mhz - 1 Ghz, I don't know that increasing the discharge rate from a second to 20 or even 50 times a second really increases your ability to capture one of these states. Having said that, I don't really have a quarrel with increasing the rates for investigative purposes, I have done it myself. However, I think you should keep in mind the heating of silicon junctions etc, from the rapid discharge rates. Even non-critical gates can be artificially damaged by rapid pulses. I can't think of a case when an ESD discharge (not lightning etc) naturally occurs at very high rates. I'd be interested in examples if it does occur. Not a bad diagnostic tool but I wouldn't care to see higher rates implemented in standards. Gary (You can't expect much for two cents these days) -Original Message- From: HALL,KEN (HP-Roseville,ex1) [mailto:ken_h...@hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:53 AM To: 'Michael Hopkins'; am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: AGUILAR,LONNIE (HP-Roseville,ex1); 'Pommerenke, David' Subject: RE: ESD - time between successive discharges Hello all, If I remember correctly the one shot/second was to allow older simulators time to recharge. We believe that the probability of identifying an ESD susceptible product is increased dramatically when subjecting the product to continuous discharges. Ken Hall Lonnie please file. Thanks, Ken -Original Message- From: Michael Hopkins [mailto:mhopk...@thermokeytek.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:48 AM To: am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ESD - time between successive discharges Seems to me the time between discharges is the same as the time between pulses (I believe that was the intent). I don't have the standard in front of me, but I think the max rate was 1/second, which means you could go slower. In most tests I've seen, the several discharges at one point are run at the 1/second rate, but then there could be several seconds or more between the discharges at that point and the discharges at the next point. At least one company actually runs tests at much higher discharge rates and with many more shots/point than IEC recommends (the new draft of ANSI C63.16 goes to 50 shots/per point). Michael Hopkins Thermo KeyTek - Original Message - From: am...@westin.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: ESD - time between successive discharges Dear members, From IEC61000-4-2 and several EN-product standards, they specify the time between successive discharges to be at least 1 second. But what is the maximum time between each pulse ? I can not see that it is stated in any standards. I guess the test labs use 1 pulse pr second. I feel that the pulse rate can have influences on the EUT performance, so 1 second compared to 3-5 seconds might be the difference between PASS and FAIL. Any suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC
RE: ESD - time between successive discharges
Amund, My experience has been that the labs would prefer to perform the ESD tests at a rate of 1 pulse/second (pps) for the sake of efficiency. If the product passes then it was completed in the least amount of time and everyone's happy. If the product fails at 1 pps, then you are allowed to decrease the pulse rate until the product passes. If it still fails at lower rates (say 0.1 pps - one ESD event every 10 seconds), then you probably have problems. I've had products fail at 1 pps and pass at 0.5 pps. It took longer to run the test, but it passed and met the requirements of the standard(s). My interpretation of the requirements is that there is no maximum limit between ESD discharges. Thx, Joe -Original Message- From: am...@westin.org [mailto:am...@westin.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:07 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: ESD - time between successive discharges Dear members, From IEC61000-4-2 and several EN-product standards, they specify the time between successive discharges to be at least 1 second. But what is the maximum time between each pulse ? I can not see that it is stated in any standards. I guess the test labs use 1 pulse pr second. I feel that the pulse rate can have influences on the EUT performance, so 1 second compared to 3-5 seconds might be the difference between PASS and FAIL. Any suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: article 27.4 of IEC 61558-1
Does anyone have the text of article 27.4 of IEC 61558-1? That is the only portion I beed. Its a transformer standard and about a hot filament test? Thanks in advance = Best Regards Hans Mellberg Regulatory Compliance EMC Design Services Consultant By the Pacific Coast next to Silicon Valley, Santa Cruz, CA, USA 408-507-9694 __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Does anyone have any information on Rendar in England?
Check in the Thomas Global Register. http://www.tgrnet.com/ http://www.tgrnet.com/ Richard Woods -- From: mkel...@es.com [SMTP:mkel...@es.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:12 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Does anyone have any information on Rendar in England? I'm looking for contact information for a company named Rendar in England or for their rep or distributor in the U.S. Thanks in Advance, Max Kelson Evans Sutherland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
Hi Terry: I don't recall the Sony but do recall the Philco and that Zenith held out with the `hand wired' chassis. Now that you mention it... I do indeed recall that campaign. But, I did not -- then -- realize the context. Today, looking back, that campaign was really quite absurd! But it worked! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
Rich: My resolution when we go that far back is +/- 5 years minimum :-) :-) I don't recall the Sony but do recall the Philco and that Zenith held out with the `hand wired' chassis. Terry Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com 08/02/01 12:38PM I saw the first PCB show up in TVs, Would you care to put a date on that? You can't change the facts. So yes! In the Middle to late 50's. :-) Having been a TV serviceman until 1960 (end of my college days), I saw no PCBs in USA TVs. I do recall PCBs in circa 1963 TVs. (Anyone remember the Sony tummy TV of the time?) :-) Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
I saw the first PCB show up in TVs, Would you care to put a date on that? You can't change the facts. So yes! In the Middle to late 50's. :-) Having been a TV serviceman until 1960 (end of my college days), I saw no PCBs in USA TVs. I do recall PCBs in circa 1963 TVs. (Anyone remember the Sony tummy TV of the time?) :-) Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
EN 61000-6-2:1999 Immunity DC power Port Table 3 Note 3
Group: Check my interpretation of EN 61000-6-2:1999 Immunity DC power Port Table 3 Note 3. This is with reference to an industrial application with a DC power input. Intended to be either supplied with an AC-DC power supply (`power adapter') or a distributed DC power from a distant AC-DC source located in the building. The way I read the chart is you test through the AC-DC power supply (`power adapter') +/- 500 volts surge and +/- 2000 EFT and only if you connect to cables =10 meters between the AC-DC supply and the DC input. IF I AM READING THIS RIGHT: 1. When 10 meters, are they expecting the surge and EFT tests defined for the AC port will be imposed in the course of EMC testing anyway ? I would be doing this test. Although, you could be using a supply with all the testing and CE mark certs available encouraging some to conclude this is already covered so no need to retest. 2. Are they expecting you to connect 10 meters of cable for the test? This would not be real. 3. The remaining question, IF I AM INTERPRETING IT CORRECTLY, why only +/- 500 volts surge on the AC input ? On the AC Power: ±2-kV line-to-earth; ±1-kV line-to-line surge is required. Your input will be appreciated! Best regards, Terry J. Meck Senior Compliance/Test Engineer tjm...@accusort.com Accu-Sort Systems Inc. 511 School House Rd. Telford, PA 18969-1196 USA --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ESD - time between successive discharges
Just to give you an idea of how we handled this in 60601-1-2, we said: The time between discharges shall have an initial value of 1 s. Longer time between discharges may be required in order to be able to distinguish between a response caused by a single discharge and a response caused by a number of discharges. That is, each discharge should be evaluated independently. The time between them must be considered based the type of equipment being tested. Hope this helps and is WG13's implementation of this problem. Jim -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Michael Hopkins Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:48 AM To: am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ESD - time between successive discharges Seems to me the time between discharges is the same as the time between pulses (I believe that was the intent). I don't have the standard in front of me, but I think the max rate was 1/second, which means you could go slower. In most tests I've seen, the several discharges at one point are run at the 1/second rate, but then there could be several seconds or more between the discharges at that point and the discharges at the next point. At least one company actually runs tests at much higher discharge rates and with many more shots/point than IEC recommends (the new draft of ANSI C63.16 goes to 50 shots/per point). Michael Hopkins Thermo KeyTek - Original Message - From: am...@westin.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: ESD - time between successive discharges Dear members, From IEC61000-4-2 and several EN-product standards, they specify the time between successive discharges to be at least 1 second. But what is the maximum time between each pulse ? I can not see that it is stated in any standards. I guess the test labs use 1 pulse pr second. I feel that the pulse rate can have influences on the EUT performance, so 1 second compared to 3-5 seconds might be the difference between PASS and FAIL. Any suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?
You can't change the facts. So yes! In the Middle to late 50's. :-) John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk 08/01/01 03:16PM sb67c5fe@accusort.com, Terry Meck tjm...@accusort.com inimitably wrote: I saw the first PCB show up in TVs, Would you care to put a date on that? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Does anyone have any information on Rendar in England?
I'm looking for contact information for a company named Rendar in England or for their rep or distributor in the U.S. Thanks in Advance, Max Kelson Evans Sutherland --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ESD - time between successive discharges
Hello all, If I remember correctly the one shot/second was to allow older simulators time to recharge. We believe that the probability of identifying an ESD susceptible product is increased dramatically when subjecting the product to continuous discharges. Ken Hall Lonnie please file. Thanks, Ken -Original Message- From: Michael Hopkins [mailto:mhopk...@thermokeytek.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:48 AM To: am...@westin.org; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ESD - time between successive discharges Seems to me the time between discharges is the same as the time between pulses (I believe that was the intent). I don't have the standard in front of me, but I think the max rate was 1/second, which means you could go slower. In most tests I've seen, the several discharges at one point are run at the 1/second rate, but then there could be several seconds or more between the discharges at that point and the discharges at the next point. At least one company actually runs tests at much higher discharge rates and with many more shots/point than IEC recommends (the new draft of ANSI C63.16 goes to 50 shots/per point). Michael Hopkins Thermo KeyTek - Original Message - From: am...@westin.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: ESD - time between successive discharges Dear members, From IEC61000-4-2 and several EN-product standards, they specify the time between successive discharges to be at least 1 second. But what is the maximum time between each pulse ? I can not see that it is stated in any standards. I guess the test labs use 1 pulse pr second. I feel that the pulse rate can have influences on the EUT performance, so 1 second compared to 3-5 seconds might be the difference between PASS and FAIL. Any suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic
Interesting question and there is a corollary to it. If a crystal oscillator is stepped up in frequency, with PLL circuitry for example, now what is the highest frequency. My current opinion is that for Amund's question it is the crystal frequency, and to mine, it is the PLL frequency. IN both cases they represent the highest repetitive clock speed or digitally generated frequency. Interested in seeing the other responses. Gary -Original Message- From: am...@westin.org [mailto:am...@westin.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:19 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: FCC - radiated emission up to 10th harmonic Dear members, FCC 2.1057 is about radiated emission. They say :If the equipment operates below 10GHz: to the tenth harmonic of the highest fundamental frequency or to 40 GHz, whichever is lower. I ask: Highest fundamental frequency, is it the crystall oscillator with highest frequency or is it the highest operating frequency within the EUT (after mixing, muliplier, etc..) ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Wanted Honeywell 3871 and 3874 PLISN
Please provide price and delivery for the following: 2 each 3871 DC PLISN and/or 1 each 3874 1 to 10 GHz PLISN with ac adapter to michael_r_mch...@raytheon.com. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: ESD - time between successive discharges
Seems to me the time between discharges is the same as the time between pulses (I believe that was the intent). I don't have the standard in front of me, but I think the max rate was 1/second, which means you could go slower. In most tests I've seen, the several discharges at one point are run at the 1/second rate, but then there could be several seconds or more between the discharges at that point and the discharges at the next point. At least one company actually runs tests at much higher discharge rates and with many more shots/point than IEC recommends (the new draft of ANSI C63.16 goes to 50 shots/per point). Michael Hopkins Thermo KeyTek - Original Message - From: am...@westin.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: ESD - time between successive discharges Dear members, From IEC61000-4-2 and several EN-product standards, they specify the time between successive discharges to be at least 1 second. But what is the maximum time between each pulse ? I can not see that it is stated in any standards. I guess the test labs use 1 pulse pr second. I feel that the pulse rate can have influences on the EUT performance, so 1 second compared to 3-5 seconds might be the difference between PASS and FAIL. Any suggestions ? Best regards Amund Westin Oslo, Norway -- Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Class III anomoly
200108012153.oaa24...@epgc196.sdd.hp.com, Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com inimitably wrote: My argument with the equipment class concept is that few equipment are truly fit one of the classes. I prefere to replace the word equipment with the word circuit. Now, I can apply the different class concepts to various parts of my equipment and accomplish the safety design. I agree, and IEC 60065 in fact goes some way to acknowledge this, particularly in terms of exposed parts, insulated to Class II requirements, on Class I products. Someone should tell IEC TC64! Actually, since TC64 deals with 'electrical installations of buildings', I don't understand why it is responsible for a standard dealing with equipment as well as systems and installations. It may be a historical thing, and consideration should now be given to giving TC98 the responsibility for the 'equipment' aspects at present covered in IEC 61140. It should be the responsibility of a truly 'horizontal' committee, not a product committee with 'horizontal' ambitions. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Product Safety Incidents
We currently have a good process for collecting information from product safety incidents in the field. We are now trying to develop a matrix which lists which individuals in our organization should be involved. This involvement should depend on the severity of the incident. Types of incidences would include Reportable Injury, Property Loss, Instrument Damage, Product Recall, Upgrades in the field less than a specified amount, Upgrades in the field greater than a specified mount,, Customer Notification, etc. Is there anyone willing to share a matrix or provide suggestions/format on how the notification process is done in his/her organization? All responses are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Compliance Engineering Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
