Mexico question
Hello folks - Can anyone tell me if an ITE device that does not connect to AC Mains must be NOM certified in order to market the device in Mexico? One internet link says all ITE, another says AC Mains connected equipment - I'm confused. Does anyone have a link to or a list of regulated products? Thanks Doug Massey Safety Approvals Engineer LXE, Inc. Ph. (770) 447-4224 x3607 FAX (770) 447-6928 Visit our web home at http://www.lxe.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EMI sniffer goggles
Okay, here's what I'd like to have ... Translucent material which is color responsive to emi. Similar to the material on the side of batteries which responds to voltage levels. A pane of translucent material which can be put on the end of a stick much like a pane of glass or a pane of of it which could be stood from a floor support next to the product and show a pattern of emi strengths by color. Or, a thin sheet of it much like plastic wrap which can be placed on a part of a product (such as a surface or edge) which would also respond to field strength. Or, I could rip off a sheet much like plastic wrap about a foot long and place over a pcb and instantly see the emi patterns produced by the board. Near or far field use. There'd be 2 versions of the material: one for electric fields which would respond with various shades of red and another for magnetic fields which would respond in various shades of blue. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Emitters Within a CO
A few days ago, I got a little involved in a Usenet discussion about a contractor using his cell phone within a Telco CO while working on equipment repairs / upgrades. My position was that I didn't think this was a good idea, since I know that a cell phone will create about 5 to 10 V/M at about 2 meters distance. The contractor made a statement that his cell phone had to be submitted to the CO switching engineer, who, after doing some kind of measurements, allowed the use of the phone within the CO. I asked the contractor what kind of criteria the switching engineer used to evaluate the cell phone. The contractor replied (not very clearly) that the switching engineer used a network analyzer with a plug-in S-parameter head. Well, I'm not sure if the contractor got the mushroom treatment, as that doesn't sound like what you need to evaluate RF field strength! But, what criteria should have been applied, and are there approved cell phones for such instances? Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: EMSCAN (was TV nostalgia/EMI sniffer goggle)
I mini-evaluated an EMSCAN about 4 years ago. Cute tool! At the time, this little gem utilized a planar array of 1,024 microantennae, coupled to an RF processor and pc. The radiation display is a user-variable-interpolation color map (spectral or spatial), but a bit imprecise in X-Y location, and forget about the Z plane. You could see a circuit trace acting as an emitter, but you have to be diligent in comparing the pwb layout with the schematic and the tool's radiation profile report. It was also a bit slow. That might have changed since then. Here's a link: http://www.emscan.com/product/prodline.html I could not sell our pcb design engineers on the tool -not even for use as a prescanner. Now our mechanical folks are having a dickens of a time containing 2Gbps fibre channel harmonics after the pcb design is done. Thanks for the job security. boneheads The biggest problem with this weapon was the absolute need for close proximity and repeatable indexing. This severely affects the accuracy and repeatability of the results, making before/after comparisons questionable. For many of us, placing an operating pwb on a planar surface for scanning presents a major challenge. I dont know about you, but we have a backplane that the pwb plugs into, then of course there is cabling, power supplies and cooling to worry about. Not to mention the CRU canisters for each module. Then it needs to be functional. I witnessed differences in emission profile that were highly sensitive to operating modes of the firmware loops and application software. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to do an accurate comparison of a bare board to an assembled and completely functioning EUT. So you are forced to scan a bare board rather than a fully configured and functioning system. For our purposes (debugging the EMI containment) this was of no practicality. Back to sniffer loops and horns.. On the other hand, one of the proper ways to design for compliance is to design for containment of the emissions at the [board level] source. This is where the practicality of the EMSCAN comes into play. I found the tool's virtue for scanning the solder side of the board (close proximity) excellent, but for the component side (which is where most of the radiation sources and fixes would occur) the proximity was poor, grossly affecting the location and precision of the readings. btw I dont work for, or have any connection with, EMSCAN. kyle -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:58 PM To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR viewer resolutions. -- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: ETSI EMC Standard
An ETSI representative told me that he thought that most all EU labs have upgraded their chambers and equipment and are now ready to test. That same person asked if the US labs were also ready? Let's hear from both sides of the Atlantic. Are you prepared? Richard Woods -- From: umbdenst...@sensormatic.com [SMTP:umbdenst...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 1:20 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: ETSI EMC Standard Regarding the change in the standard, has anyone started to look into an upgrade to their compact chambers for stre-e-e-etching the frequency to 2 GHz? If so, what upgrades did you find most cost effective for * signal generator * amplifier * antenna * sensor * e-field probe * chamber lining modifications Perhaps we can develop a database of options and trade-offs before we need to spend the big bucks. Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic ? -- From: wo...@sensormatic.com[SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Reply To: wo...@sensormatic.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: ETSI EMC Stadard The final draft of the proposed revision of ETSI EN 301 489-1 is in the voting stage. This standard sets the emissions and immunity requirements for most all transmitters. A major change has been made to the radiated immunity requirements by adding the frequencies between 1400 MHz and 2000 MHz. I was told that this change is being driven by CISPR and may be based upon a CISPR standard. Does anyone have any information in this regard? Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
GSM IN Taiwan
I have two questions and would appreciate any direction: 1) Does anyone know who the Taiwan authority is for GSM phones? 2) Does anyone know of a laboratory that tests GSM phones to their functional requirements (not EMC and not RF requirements)? Thanks, Mike Cantwell, PE, NCE Flextronics Compliance Laboratories 762 Park Ave. Youngsville, NC 27596 Tel: (919) 554-0901 Fax: (919) 556-2043 Cell: (919) 815-4067 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ETSI EMC Stadard
IEC 61000-4-3 1995+A1:1998 covers 800-960 MHz and 1.4 to 2.0 GHz for protection from digital Radio telephones -Original Message- From: wo...@sensormatic.com [mailto:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 7:16 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: ETSI EMC Stadard The final draft of the proposed revision of ETSI EN 301 489-1 is in the voting stage. This standard sets the emissions and immunity requirements for most all transmitters. A major change has been made to the radiated immunity requirements by adding the frequencies between 1400 MHz and 2000 MHz. I was told that this change is being driven by CISPR and may be based upon a CISPR standard. Does anyone have any information in this regard? Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EMI sniffer goggles
The only way you can get directionality is by looking at which dipoles/loops get the strongest signals. The dipoles or loops themselves have essentially no directivity. And the phase relationship won't work like a phased array radar, because those dipoles and delay lines are tuned for that microwave frequency, whereas the EMI goggles are electrically short. -- From: Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com To: Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: EMI sniffer goggles Date: Tue, Aug 7, 2001, 11:08 AM Hi all, I know this is all hypothetical, but... I think what's missing from the suggestions is a way to detect directivity of the emissions. So far what has been suggested is an array of detectors each linked to pixels. This would be very efficient at telling you which detectors have been hit by EMI. But, how would they be able to detect where the EMI was coming from? (i.e. provide a color coded view of the DUT) Maybe we could take a hint from the phased array radar guys and get a clue to directionality from the phase relationship. Of course, it would have to be reset at each frequency, but it's a start. Chris -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [SMTP:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:37 AM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: TV nostalgia True, but if the display range and bandwidth was tunable, and shown in 3-D chroma (similar to thermal imagers) rather than time domain -the emissions would make sense to the wearer. After all, even modern spectrum analyzers cannot show full bandwidth without compromising adjustments. -k -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [ mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:29 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ETSI EMC Standard
Regarding the change in the standard, has anyone started to look into an upgrade to their compact chambers for stre-e-e-etching the frequency to 2 GHz? If so, what upgrades did you find most cost effective for * signal generator * amplifier * antenna * sensor * e-field probe * chamber lining modifications Perhaps we can develop a database of options and trade-offs before we need to spend the big bucks. Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic ? -- From: wo...@sensormatic.com[SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Reply To: wo...@sensormatic.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: ETSI EMC Stadard The final draft of the proposed revision of ETSI EN 301 489-1 is in the voting stage. This standard sets the emissions and immunity requirements for most all transmitters. A major change has been made to the radiated immunity requirements by adding the frequencies between 1400 MHz and 2000 MHz. I was told that this change is being driven by CISPR and may be based upon a CISPR standard. Does anyone have any information in this regard? Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: ESD - time between successive discharges
No John, I'm not referring to you. (or anyone else in particular) I dont know you well enough -yet..lol I'm just spaking on how we do the job of ensuring that our products meet the standards. We take this work very seriously and I agree with you that the CE mark is not a quality mark, but in our case it nearly becomes one when the customer's expectation of our products is to meet (or exceed) the presently applied Directives. We back the CE mark with a detailed test report. In a number of cases, the customer performs follow up testing. On rare occasions, the customer is followup testing to more stringent or severe levels and this is where agressive adherence to the Directives, along with painfully acquired margins, pays off in spades. On very rare occasions a test lab challenges our data, in which case we re-examine and submit or challenge, depending on the issue. I'm a second party and cannot take direct credit for the lab's work, but I can say that I advocate doing the right thing. Even when it creates a great deal of discomfort for our engineers and reasonably increases our costs. As a result, our engineers have at best a rancorous respect for our tiny department. I need to state that our lab is a combined EMC and Safety lab. That it is part of LSI Logic Storage Systems Division, that we are not independent of the company, and that we do no external testing or contracting. Also, what I say here are merely my opinions and are not necessarily those of LSI. standard disclaimer Take Care, Kyle Ehler KCOIQE mailto:kyle.eh...@lsil.com Product Safety Engineer / EMC Specialist LSI Logic Storage Systems Division 3718 N. Rock Road U.S.A. Wichita, Kansas 67226 Ph. 316 636 8657 Fax 316 636 8321 -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 1:37 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ESD - time between successive discharges 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: I suppose what I am alluring to You aren't alluring to me, sailor!(;-) is debugging for quality, but then, isnt the purpose of compliance testing to 'test to fail' rather than test to pass? No, it isn't, if you mean 'compliance with EU Directives'. To suggest that it is creates an open invitation to militant test-houses to go looking for trouble, and you can be pretty sure that some of them are ingenious enough to find it in every case. [snip] For example, as an OEM (to a few of you out there) and direct mfr. we want to be as thorough as possible because we want to make a quality product and when we put CE on it, we mean it. The CE mark is absolutely NOT to be regarded as a quality mark. Thus spake the European Commission itself. You are welcome to institute whatever product-quality verification programs you wish, but please keep their consideration separate from issues concerning compliance with EU Directives. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
EMI sniffer goggles
Hi all, I know this is all hypothetical, but... I think what's missing from the suggestions is a way to detect directivity of the emissions. So far what has been suggested is an array of detectors each linked to pixels. This would be very efficient at telling you which detectors have been hit by EMI. But, how would they be able to detect where the EMI was coming from? (i.e. provide a color coded view of the DUT) Maybe we could take a hint from the phased array radar guys and get a clue to directionality from the phase relationship. Of course, it would have to be reset at each frequency, but it's a start. Chris -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [SMTP:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:37 AM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: TV nostalgia True, but if the display range and bandwidth was tunable, and shown in 3-D chroma (similar to thermal imagers) rather than time domain -the emissions would make sense to the wearer. After all, even modern spectrum analyzers cannot show full bandwidth without compromising adjustments. -k -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [ mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:29 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
History of 60Hz (TV Nostalgia)
In a recent response of TV Nostalgia Dale Svetanoff suggested a link to the Antique Wireless Association http://www.antiquewireless.org/ Looking through this link I was fascinated by some of the early issues regarding electronic devices power with tubes. Additionally there was an article that discussed the rational for 60Hz power in the U.S. as opposed to 50 Hz or other frequencies. A fellow engineer provided me yet another link that points to the politics of the issue. I found this to be very informative and thought some of you might also be interested. Did you know for example that we had 50Hz in the U.S. prior to WWII and other frequencies such as 25 Hz and 133 Hz were also used? http://www.enteract.com/~enf/afc/electricity I hope that this posting is relevant to the goal and charter of this discussion group. After all, we all deal with these power issues on a daily basis. If not, please let me know. Thanks Rick Busche Evans Sutherland rbus...@es.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
ETSI EMC Stadard
The final draft of the proposed revision of ETSI EN 301 489-1 is in the voting stage. This standard sets the emissions and immunity requirements for most all transmitters. A major change has been made to the radiated immunity requirements by adding the frequencies between 1400 MHz and 2000 MHz. I was told that this change is being driven by CISPR and may be based upon a CISPR standard. Does anyone have any information in this regard? Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: TV nostalgia
(Note: I have been on travel for a few days and just got into this foray of nostalgia.) First, I have to second any and all comments about the smell of vacuum tube sets, of any type! Good stuff. As an FYI to all of you former vacuum tube types who REALLY dig this stuff, may I suggest checking out: Antique Wireless Association. They have a website, and produce a number of excellent publications, including the quarterly Old Timer's Bulletin and the annual AWA Review. Dues are modest and the nostalgia and tech info flows on forever. Regards, Dale Svetanoff Rockwell Collins rbus...@es.com@majordomo.ieee.org on 08/03/2001 04:02:21 PM Please respond to rbus...@es.com Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: RE: TV nostalgia How about the reported X-Ray emissions from the old high voltage regulators and the 25-35KV anode voltages? Those old color sets were beasts. It is interesting to note that the process of keeping the CRT filaments warm, (instant on) was the cause of numerous TV fires. But you know, there's something pleasant (or nostalgic) about the smell of a tube type radio or TV. Perhaps it's just my age. Rick Busche -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [mailto:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:38 PM To: 'Ralph Cameron'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: RE: TV nostalgia Which reminds me of other oddball video contraptions. A few years back I had to dispose of a Heathkit GR-2000 25 TV w/onscreen digital clock option. Alas, it worked great, but the digital matrix tuner did not like CATV (ch. 2-13 only). Its entire chassis was copper plated steel. All pcb's were 94V0 and, typical of Heath products, documented more than thoroughly. Very well made! kyle -Original Message- From: Ralph Cameron [mailto:ral...@igs.net] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:41 PM To: Ehler, Kyle; 'Rich Nute'; 'EMC and Safety list' Subject: Re: TV nostalgia And lest we forget the Hallicrafters electrostatic deflection systems. You could sure get a poke off those. Ralph Cameron - Original Message - From: Ehler, Kyle To: 'Rich Nute' ; 'EMC and Safety list' Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: TV nostalgia My experience was with the Packard-Bell transistorized models. I think the aversion I have was prejudiced by the fellow who mentored me. I had little reason to doubt, but then the sets I worked on, had a callback history that may have been created by my mentor. -kyle -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 5:36 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: TV nostalgia Okay... more nostalgia and a bit on safety back in those days... so that we don't stray too far from the subject matter of this forum. My first TV was a Motorola 7-inch round in a Bakelite cabinet. The speaker was the same size as the CRT. My second was the famous RCA 10-inch round chassis with 32 tubes. I could pull out 15 tubes and still have a usable picture. Kyle mentions Packard Bell, which I considered a straight-forward, good product. It used the Standard Coil turret tuner. The one that won my respect was Muntz TV. It was CHEAP! When you looked inside the chassis, there was nothing there compared to the other TVs. They really knew how to take the cost out of the TV! Amazingly enough, its picture was among the best, and its reliability was indeed the best -- no parts to go bad! The company was owned by Mad Man Muntz, the classic Los Angeles used car dealer. In the mid-fifties, GE came out with a transformerless 17-inch TV. One side of the power line was tied to the chassis (2-wire plug back in those days). The only protection was the plastic knob on the shafts of the various controls. When servicing this TV, you quickly learned never to touch the chassis! The power supply was a simple full-wave rectified power line. The tube heaters were connected in a series-parallel arrangement. These sets were the initiation of UL's investigation into antenna coupling capacitors. These capacitors provided the isolation between the TV antenna terminals and the mains voltage. TV sets of those days consumed between 400 and 600 watts. When they were turned on, the cold filaments were a very low impedance, so the turn-on current was very high. The off-on switch was often mounted on the back of the volume control. Eventually, the contact resistance of the switch would grow to the point where the I**2*R power would melt the solder and the power wires would come loose. It was common to have a customer report that his TV was dead, and it was due to the lack of a good connection to the switch. At one company, we had metal bat-handle toggles blow out of the switch due to the cold filament load. Out of this experience, UL developed the requirements for the TV-rated switch, which had specially-designed contacts that would not
RE: TV nostalgia
True, but if the display range and bandwidth was tunable, and shown in 3-D chroma (similar to thermal imagers) rather than time domain -the emissions would make sense to the wearer. After all, even modern spectrum analyzers cannot show full bandwidth without compromising adjustments. -k -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 12:29 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest.
RE: TV nostalgia
Kyle writes .. Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Ah! I believe one exists! For PCB's anyway. I did not believe it when I read about in an EMC magazine (Compliance journal I think), so I asked for a demo last month and true to his word, the man came in and showed me their new invention: the 'EMC Scanner'. I had him scan one of my PCB's and indeed it picked up all the frequencies I had picked up at the test house, but in addition, gave me a graphical picture where exactly (down to the IC!) the emissions were coming from! Check out http://www.etsi.co.uk Best regards - Chris -Original Message- From: Ehler, Kyle [SMTP:keh...@lsil.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 2:08 PM To: 'Doug McKean'; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject:RE: TV nostalgia Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). A rig like this could add a pc for compliance recognition/cataloging and perhaps someday eliminate the need for OATS, TEM cells and other investigatinve methods. The system could also harass on a per sample basis in situ mfg. product. -kyle, KC0IQE -Original Message- From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: TV nostalgia snip Now, if we could just train ourselves to sniff out some of those pesky EMI problems ... - Doug McKean _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. File: ATT1.htm _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: ESD - time between successive discharges
95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: I suppose what I am alluring to You aren't alluring to me, sailor!(;-) is debugging for quality, but then, isnt the purpose of compliance testing to 'test to fail' rather than test to pass? No, it isn't, if you mean 'compliance with EU Directives'. To suggest that it is creates an open invitation to militant test-houses to go looking for trouble, and you can be pretty sure that some of them are ingenious enough to find it in every case. [snip] For example, as an OEM (to a few of you out there) and direct mfr. we want to be as thorough as possible because we want to make a quality product and when we put CE on it, we mean it. The CE mark is absolutely NOT to be regarded as a quality mark. Thus spake the European Commission itself. You are welcome to institute whatever product-quality verification programs you wish, but please keep their consideration separate from issues concerning compliance with EU Directives. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
20010806225804.SIIR21723.femail41.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.11.150.27], Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com inimitably wrote: You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Well, very short dipoles can give us the broadband response we need. Suppose we look at 30 MHz as the lower limit? The lower frequencies are controlled by conducted emissions limits, in many cases, anyway. We need a 2-dimensional array of very short dipoles, each of which is connected through an amplifier and detector to one pixel of a backlit LCD screen. Suitable optics then create a virtual image for each eye to see. Anyone want to have a go? (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: TV nostalgia
You could use an array of very short dipoles or small loops and gain in resolution by giving up efficiency, meaning that the viewer would have to be near the source. Although I have no detailed knowledge of it, I expect this is the principle behind the devices upon which you lay an operating PCB and the device maps hot spots. But clearly you will never get optical or IR viewer resolutions. -- From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: TV nostalgia Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2001, 12:28 PM 95fbd8b0830ed511b7720002a51363f1319...@exw-ks.ks.lsil.com, Ehler, Kyle keh...@lsil.com inimitably wrote: Doug has touched on what I think would be a great tool for the EMI hunter...but rather than a 'sniffer', a 'goggle' similar to what Geordi wears that facilitates the direct viewing of EM radiation. Ideally, the device would allow adjustable band 'viewing' of the radiation frequency, intensity, polarity and propagation pattern(s). Yes, it sounds much more attractive than a sniffer, which would produce BAD smells around some equipment. And it isn't technically unfeasible. The problem is the poor resolution, even a microwave frequencies, due to the wavelength of the emission. At 150 kHz, the wavelength is 2 km, so only very BIG things are visible. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender yesterday at the latest. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
