Just how many to test...???

[Lfresearch]

Hi all,

I've been approached and asked to advise on just how much to test... remember 
I'm a test lab so my answers may be biased.

My client has three designs, the only difference is the transformer.

A 24 V version for low voltage control systems ( about 49.5% sales volume )
A 120 V version for use in the USA, but will have the CE mark. ( about 49.5 
sales volume )
A 230 V version destined for the EU. ( about 1% sales volume )

He is testing to EN 61326, and asked me if he should test all three, or can 
he reduce the testing based on volumes of the products sold. I suggested that 
the 24 volt version be tested period... The 120 volt version tested period. 
And the power input portion of the 240 volt version be tested.

Anyone in the group want to comment?

Thanks,

Derek Walton
L. F. Research EMC Design and Test Facility.

RE: Meeting CISPR in Fast Ethernet board

[JMurphy]

If you are only using 2 pairs per connection in the RJ-21 cable, your
problem may be that you are not taking advantage of the (Bob Smith)
terminations on the unused 2 pairs that you could have in a standard RJ-45,
8-conductor cable.

Just a few points we came across here with a 24-port card (2 RJ-21
connectors):

1.) EIA/TIA 568 specifies Cat 5 cable. They DO indicate that it is a 4 pair
cable.

2.) The IEEE 100BaseTx spec is based on ANSI's FDDI TP-PMD. This ANSI spec
indicates that the cable plant should be Cat 5 UTP per EIA/TIA 568.

3.) There is an annex in the ANSI TP-PMD spec (which is informative only)
indicating that 
the tests they conducted while drafting the spec had better EMC performance
(both radiated
emissions  immunity) if the unused pairs are terminated. So, they
essentially recommend
doing this, but they don't require it. 

Jack

-Original Message-
From: Bob Patel [mailto:whizpla...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:57 PM
To: Chris Allen
Cc: EMC
Subject: Re: Meeting CISPR in Fast Ethernet board



Hi! Thanks for all the responses. I spoke with the EMC
guy and here is what he has to say. In our design we
are providing both RJ21 and RJ45 connectors on the I/O
card. In RJ21 case the RJ21 cables connect to a patch
panel which has RJ45 connectors and in case of RJ45
I/O there is no patch panel.
The test was done with shielded and unshielded cables
and it does not meet CISPR in the 30Mhz to 100Mhz
range. We are going to do tests with RJ45 I/O today.
DO you'l think by using patch panels which introduces
another form of impedance discontinuity is causing
this emission problem?
Thanks
Bob
--- Chris Allen chris_al...@eur.3com.com wrote:
 
 
 Hi Bob,
 
 I would have thought that the noise is narrow band
 (125MHz being the data rate
 fundamental including the overhead). A couple of
 points worth noting from
 experience:
 
 1.   What has been done with the centre tap of the
 magnetic's transformer?
 Depending on how clean this connection is will
 greatly impact the emissions.
 
 2.   Are you using mag-jacks? These greatly improve
 emissions?
 
 3.   Earthing - Are you trying to meet the standard
 with shielded or unshielded
 cables? We used to design products with a seperate
 earth plane for magnetics /
 cable shields from the digital ground. This was OK
 when using shielded cables as
 the ground that the cables were connected to was
 quieter than the digital
 ground. With unshielded cables, we have found that
 on multi-layer PCBs that has
 a good low impedence multi-point grounding system,
 the use on a continuous 0
 volt plane across the whole PCB works the best.
 
 Hope this helps
 
 Kind regards,
 Chris.
 
 
 
 
 
 Bob Patel whizpla...@yahoo.com on 14/08/2002
 22:23:41
 
 Please respond to Bob Patel whizpla...@yahoo.com
 
 Sent by:  Bob Patel whizpla...@yahoo.com
 
 
 To:   EMC emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 cc:(Chris Allen/GB/3Com)
 Subject:  Meeting CISPR in Fast Ethernet board
 
 
 
 
 
 Hi! I had a question regarding meeting EMI on my
 board
 for CISPR. I have a Fast Ethernet card and the
 125MHz
 Fast Ehternet fails the CISPR in the 30Mhz to 100Mhz
 limit.
 In the layout care has been taken to isolate the
 chassis or quiet ground from Digital ground by
 isolating the ground from the secondary of the
 magnetics to the connector where the cable gets
 connected.
 Does anybody have recommendations as to how should I
 improve the board to meet CISPR in 30Mhz to 100Mhz.
 Thanks
 Bob
 
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Re: Books / EMC in Installations

[Alan E Hutley]

The direct link to articles in the EMC Compliance Journal is
http://www.compliance-club.com/archive1/archindex.html

Happy Reading
Alan E Hutley
Editor
www.compliance-club.com

- Original Message -
From: Wojciech Babij wojciech_ba...@nmss.com
To: Gibling, Vic vic.gibl...@e2vtechnologies.com
Cc: am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;
wojciech_ba...@nmss.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: Books / EMC in Installations




 In the EMC Compliance Journal there was a series of 6 articles on this
 subject. In the link below you can find them. They also mention other
books
 and resources in those articles.


http://internet.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emc-j
ournal.co.uk%2F

 Good reading,


 Wojciech




   Gibling, Vic
   Vic.Gibling@e2vtechnoTo:
'am...@westin-emission.no' am...@westin-emission.no,
   logies.com
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 cc:
wojciech_ba...@nmss.com
   08/15/02 11:16 AM Subject:  RE: Books /
EMC in Installations








 EMC for Systems and Installations

 Authors:  Tim Williams  Keith Armstrong
  ISBN: 0750641673
  Cost: £29.99
  320pp


 Vic Gibling
 Compliance Engineer

 E2V Technologies
 Phone +44 (0) 01245 453352
 Fax +44 (0) 01245 453410
 e-mail vic.gibl...@e2vtechnologies.com

 -Original Message-
 From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
 Sent: 15 August 2002 14:25
 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Cc: wojciech_ba...@nmss.com
 Subject: Books / EMC in Installations



 Looking for books which describes Good EMC practise when building a
system
 / installations.

 Any suggestions ?

 Bets regards
 Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway



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RE: Apples and Oranges of FCC Data Correlation / Verification

[Reginald Henry]

Ken,

I guess I stand corrected ! I spoke with Thomas Philips of the FCC, he gave
me addition info.

I had asked the same question to him that I had asking the group. 

Apparently I was mixing Apples with Oranges. With our products we are
dealing (Information Equipment ) Class A  part 15 sub part B ,etc.

We are looking to self  VERIFY   but NOT to have our product Certified.

My understanding in speaking to Thomas Phillips is that when you are
Certifying your products and you are using a GTEM Cell to do so , that is
only then that you take your test product to the OATS and perform this back
and forth between OATS and GTEM ( three (3) times ) .

You then submit this data to the FCC and show your method of data
correlation. My understanding is that this is only to be once !

This is NOT what I am actually looking for. I am looking to FCC Verify .


Reg

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 5:37 PM
To: Reginald Henry; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: GTEM Cell / FCC Data Correlation



I evolved this same technique for a customer who was having problems 
correlating GTEM and OATS data.  But I made the following extra
recommendation which I believe is absolutely essential.  If the EUT has any
cables attached to it, power or otherwise, then cable common mode currents
must be separately controlled, because the algorithm which correlates GTEM
potentials and OATS field intensities assumes the EUT is a point source of
radiation.  This is true whether you use a software algorithm or a
completely empirical technique such as a standard site source (comb
generator driving a stub antenna).The cables are a distributed source of
radiation and cannot be properly laid out in the GTEM cell (even in my
customer's cell, in which I could stand up and walk around).

--
From: Reginald Henry rhe...@vicon-cctv.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: GTEM Cell / FCC Data Correlation
Date: Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 10:43 AM




 Group,

 I have a GTEM Cell that I use for CE Emission and Immunity testing.

 For my FCC testing currently I only do FCC Prescreening ( using package
 software to control

 and monitor the emissions in the cell )for FCC Class A, etc., then we send

 the product out to a testing house in the area to get the FCC cert.


 I inquired about FCC self certifying ones own site , and found it to be
a
 do able but involved

 process.


 My understanding now, is that there is a way to comply with the
requirements
 by the FCC using something call Data Correlation. This is where you
would
 go to an OATS and take measures, and then take the same unit ( all things
 being equal , setup , mode of operation , etc ) inside of the GTEM Cell .

 If you document this ( emission reading of one vs. the other ) and then
 correlate the data , all subsequent tests in your GTEM Cell can be
adjusted
 to reflect what you would have gotten at an OATS.

 My question is, does anyone know where there is an Official FCC document
 stating that this is an accepted practice, or where EXACTLY is this info
 located on the FCC web site?


 Once again, thanking you all in advance for your assistance.

 Reg Henry

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RE: Circuit Breakers

[Bryan . Cole]

Scott,

I have not heard of surge protection device (SPD) being a requirement for
circuit breakers, but I do know that SPDs are required to be after the main
over-current protective device of a facility as per NEC 2002, article 285
and UL 1449, regardless if the SPD contains integral fusing or not.  In
addition, per the NEC, which is clarified in an upcoming IEEE application
guide on surge protective device (PC62.72, Working Group 3.6.6), the fault
current rating of the SPD must be equal to or greater than the fault current
capability of the over-current protective device utilized in front of the
SPD.

For SPDs designed for use inside other equipment, over-current protection of
the SPD is not required as long as building over-current protection is
provided.

Surge arrestors, SPDs designed to be placed in front of the main
over-current protective device of the facility and on transformer poles, are
governed by article 280 of the NEC and UL's OWHX classification.

Bryan Cole
Director of Engineering
Product Safety Officer
Emerson Network Power - Control Concepts
Binghamton, New York 13902
Phone: 607.724.1352 extension 238
Fax: 607.724.0153
E-mail: bryan.c...@control-concepts.com
www.Liebert.com
www.Control-Concepts.com
www.Edcosurge.com


-Original Message-
From: Scott Barrows [mailto:sbarr...@curtis-straus.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:40 AM
To: PSTC
Subject: Circuit Breakers



Hi All,
Does anyone have any information concerning the requirement for surge
protection on circuit breakers that came into effect this June? This may
just be for the EU and Laboratory equipment.

Regards,
Scott


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Re: Radiation formula

[Doug McKean]

Re: Radiation formulaLooks like Ott formulas. Personally I have trouble with
those equations.  There's obviously some trig functions
that should be included in those equations to denote
directionality or directivity, or there's some assumption(s)
going on not stated.

Those equations in general form are highly directional.
It is true that one can use those equations to show that
the E-field produced by a Hertzian magnetic dipole is
proportional to the square of the frequency and that the
E-field produced by a Herztian electric dipole is
proportional to the frequency, but the magnitudes of
the coefficients could erronously show which is of
greater concern depending upon the situation and
obviously do not give any information about directivity.

Personal opinion only.  This post is NOT to be construed
as a criticism of the great pioneer himself, Mr. Ott.

Regards, Doug McKean



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Re: Creepage on PCB Internal Layers

[JPR3]

In a message dated 8/15/2002, Gary McInturff writes:


 Okay, now don't everyone write to my layout guys, but I never bothered to 
 tell them they could change the constraint files for closer routing on 
 inner layers, so they do apply the spacings. I have try to keep an eye for 
 it causing us extra layers or any real grief and it hasn't.
 


Hi Gary:

I agree that for designs that involve only a single telecom port or single 
power supply, there is often no incentive to take advantage of the tighter 
spacings allowed on inner layers.  For such jobs it is easier for the layout 
folks if they have one set of simple rules.

However, on high density cards with multiple ports, the tighter spacings 
allowed on inner layers can be a godsend.  It is important to keep this in 
mind when you plan your layout.  

Also keep in mind that another degree of freedom that was not discussed in 
this thread is using layer-to-layer separation for the isolation barrier.  
That invokes another set of complicated considerations, but on some high 
density boards it can make the difference between feasible and 
impossible.


Joe Randolph
Telecom Design Consultant
Randolph Telecom, Inc.
781-721-2848
http://www.randolph-telecom.com

minimum distance for PWB inner layers (was creepage)

[Rich Nute]

Hi Tom:


   In 60950, applicable clauses are 2.10.5.3 and 2.10.5.1 (I'm not
   reading genuine IEC/EN 60950, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong) -
   the former states that distance through insulation would be applied
   in such situation, and the latter set minimum thickness of 0.4mm
   for supplementary and reinforced insulation for peak working voltage
   greater than 71V.

Agree.

   However, I think applying minimum distance for pollution degree 1 or
   that for coated PCBs (clause 2.10.6) for inner layers when designing
   PCBs are not bad idea, although both of them wouldn't be applied here.
   The latter set, for example, minimum distance of 1.2mm for reinforced
   insulation for working volgage up to 250V on coated PCBs.

Anyone may, of course, use any distance through insulation
that he chooses, provided the distance is at least 0.4 mm.

However, I would caution against rationalizing the distance 
for conductors on inner layers of printed wiring boards by 
applying criteria that are not in any way applicable to the 
construction.  

These requirements (for creepage distances based on 
pollution degree and for coated printed wiring boards) are 
based on reasonable principles of engineering and physics.  

Requirements for pollution degree 1 creepage distances apply 
to the interface between solid insulation and air insulation,
not to inner layers of multilayer boards where creepage does
not exist.  The inner layer conductors of an ideal multilayer 
board are imbedded in solid insulation.  The requirements for
creepage distances presume a long-term accumulation of 
pollution, which does not occur to the inner layers of a
multilayer PWB.

Likewise, requirements for coated printed wiring boards apply
to coated PWBs, not to inner layers of multilayer boards.
Thin coatings are not of uniform thickness, and bend around
the surface conductors, both of which contribute to highly 
localized voltage stresses on the coating.  The requirements
for coatings account for these localized stresses, which do
not occur to the inner layers of a multilayer PWB.

Rationalizing larger distances by applying these requirements
to inner layers of PWBs is contrary to the basis of the
requirements.  Such rationalization generates confusion among 
designers and among fellow safety professionals.  

Indeed, this thread originated because of just such a
confusion!

If the belief is that the 0.4 mm distance is too small for 
inner layers of PWBs, then a greater distance should be
specified.  But, please don't rationalize the larger 
dimension by applying inapplicable requirements.


Best regards,
Rich





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Re: 48 Volt Telco Power Supply

[Ed Eszlari]

Hi Jim,
Transistor Devices makes standard and custom power supplies for many applications including Telecom. http://www.tdipower.com/
Good luck.
Ed

From: Jim Robson 
Reply-To: Jim Robson 
To: "'EMC-PSTC - forum'" 
Subject: 48 Volt Telco Power Supply 
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:46:59 -0700 
 
 
 
Hello Group, 
 
Does anyone in the group know of a good supplier of 48 VDC Telco power 
supplies? 
 
My requirements: 
 
Input 120/240 VAC (universal or switchable) 
Output 48 VDC 
Power 750 watts 
Mounting 19 inch rack 
 
Thanks in advance, 
Jim Robson 
Compliance Eng. 
Zetron Inc. 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Books / EMC in Installations

[Art Michael]

Hello Amund,


See www.safetylink.com/bookshop.html and more specifically,
www.safetylink.com/bookshop/william2.txt

Regards, Art Michael


On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 am...@westin-emission.no wrote:

 
 Looking for books which describes Good EMC practise when building a system
 / installations.
 
 Any suggestions ?
 
 Bets regards
 Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway
 
 
 
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(Fwd) Medical devices, current limit

[jgriver]

Kim,

This type of product may be covered by IEC 60601-2-10, PARTICULAR REQUIREMENTS 
FOR THE SAFETY OF NERVE AND 
MUSCLE STIMULATORS, 
or possibly, IEC 60601-2-14, PARTICULAR REQUIREMENTS FOR THE SAFETY OF 
ELECTROCONVULSIVE THERAPY 
EQUIPMENT 

I don't have a copy of these standards, but they should relate to this issue.

With regard to a general discusion of this subject, have a look at the 
Rationale section (Appendix A) of IEC 60601-1. The rationale on 
sub-clause 19.3 gives information, a graph and references on this subject.

Regards,

Jon Griver
http://www.601help.com
THe Medical Device Developer's Guide to IEC 60601-1



--- Forwarded message follows ---
Hi all

I have a medical device under EU directive 93/42/EEC. It is a class IIa
product and sends some small electrical pulses through the body for
treatments.

Does anyone know of any limit for the current ? (voltage is generated
from battery and is max. 16Vdc)

Does anyone have the current/frequency diagram over max. current the the
body can withstand without hazards ? (It is normally used for mains
leakage current protection).


Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen
Bolls Raadgivning
Denmark

--- End of forwarded message ---

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RE: Telecom Tests in Russia

[Peter Merguerian]

Dear All,

For telecom tests in Russia, please contact the following person. He's a
real expert and is representing many Israeli and international telecom
related companies.


Youry Guinossian
General Manager
CEDICOM J. S. COMPANY
16 Mitischenskaya 3th str., Bld47, office 1101, Moscow,  129626, Russia.
Phone fax +7  095 737-8806,
  +7  095 136 3648 mob
E-mail: yo...@cedicom.ru
www.cedicom.ru


This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If
you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate,
distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you
received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the
message and its attachments to the sender.



PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





-Original Message-
From: Courtland Thomas [mailto:ctho...@patton.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:37 PM
To: emcpost
Subject: 



Can anyone provide me with some information concerning Russian
certifications. I am interested in GOST-R and Telecom. It is my
understanding that the Telecom testing has to be performed on Russian soil.
Is this so? The GOST-R is a combination of Safety (CB Scheme) and EMC. If we
already have the CB Scheme and EMC in place, can the tests reports be used
or does it depend on which labs performed the testing?

Thanks



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RE: Books / EMC in Installations

[Wojciech Babij]

In the EMC Compliance Journal there was a series of 6 articles on this
subject. In the link below you can find them. They also mention other books
and resources in those articles.

http://internet.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emc-journal.co.uk%2F

Good reading,


Wojciech





  Gibling, Vic

  Vic.Gibling@e2vtechnoTo:   
'am...@westin-emission.no' am...@westin-emission.no,  
  logies.com
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
   
cc:   
wojciech_ba...@nmss.com   
  08/15/02 11:16 AM Subject:  RE: Books / EMC 
in Installations  










EMC for Systems and Installations

Authors:  Tim Williams  Keith Armstrong
 ISBN: 0750641673
 Cost: £29.99
 320pp


Vic Gibling
Compliance Engineer

E2V Technologies
Phone +44 (0) 01245 453352
Fax +44 (0) 01245 453410
e-mail vic.gibl...@e2vtechnologies.com

-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: 15 August 2002 14:25
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Cc: wojciech_ba...@nmss.com
Subject: Books / EMC in Installations



Looking for books which describes Good EMC practise when building a system
/ installations.

Any suggestions ?

Bets regards
Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway



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RE: Books / EMC in Installations

[Gordon,Ian]

Amund
Try EMC for Systems and Installations by Tim Williams and Keith Armstrong.

ISBN 0 7506 4167 3
Published by Newnes

  

Thanks
Ian Gordon



-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: 15 August 2002 14:25
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Cc: wojciech_ba...@nmss.com
Subject: Books / EMC in Installations



Looking for books which describes Good EMC practise when building a system
/ installations.

Any suggestions ?

Bets regards
Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway



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Circuit Breakers

[Scott Barrows]

Hi All,
Does anyone have any information concerning the requirement for surge
protection on circuit breakers that came into effect this June? This may
just be for the EU and Laboratory equipment.

Regards,
Scott


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Books / EMC in Installations

[amund]

Looking for books which describes Good EMC practise when building a system
/ installations.

Any suggestions ?

Bets regards
Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway



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RE: requirements for ITE power cords

[richwoods]

George, the ITE safety standards require that the plug be rated for at least
125% of the equipment rating. I believe that the US National Electrical Code
has the same requirement.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


-Original Message-
From: George Stults [mailto:george.stu...@watchguard.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 6:28 PM
To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org'
Subject: requirements for ITE power cords



Hello Group,

Recently my purchasing department asked me to recommend standards for power
cords.   These are detachable power cords for ITE equipment, both 3-wire and
2-wire.   
Typically the cords are marked with one or more of  CSA, UL, (Dentori T).
The ones we get are typically rated from 6 to 10 times the required current
for a given product. 

My question is, are there required or recommended power cord design margins
for current, voltage, power, temperature range, insulation, etc. spelled out
in IEC/EN 60950 or UL1950 or  MIL-HDBK 217 or elsewhere? 

Thanks in advance

George Stults
 

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RE: Canadian EMC

[richwoods]

Compliance is legally required ofr ICES-003. You will find that the
requirements are the same as FCC part 15 except for user information and
equipment marking. You can download the standards at 
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/sf01751e.html

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


-Original Message-
From: Joe P Martin [mailto:marti...@appliedbiosystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Canadian EMC



Greetings,

Canadian EMC standard for ISM equipment is defined in ICES-001 Issue 3
1998.  Similarly, the EMC standard for digital apparatus is defined in
ICES-003 Issue 3 1997.  These standards are based on CISPR requirements.

Are these standards required by Industry Canada or are they voluntary.  If
they are required, where is this information specified?

All responses are appreciated.

Regards

Joe Martin
Applied Biosystems
marti...@appliedbiosystems.com






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Commercial Water Purification System for Brazil and Russia

[Peter Merguerian]

Dear All,

I am trying to find out if there are any special safety/emc requirements for
a commercial water purification system for Brazil and Russia. The system is
used in commercial establishments such as laundromats, to purify the dirty
water and re-use it over and over again.

There may be emc/safety requirements in place but my customer unfortunately
wants to know the minimum he has to do in order to get through the Brazilian
or Russian customs.


Thanks 


This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If
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message and its attachments to the sender.






PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





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RE: Noise Levels for Household Appliances / Medical Devices

[Peter Merguerian]

John,

I am intersted in acoustic noise levels.


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message and its attachments to the sender.






PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





-Original Message-
From: John Shinn [mailto:john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 6:53 PM
To: 'Peter Merguerian'; 'EMC-PSTC (E-mail) '
Subject: RE: Noise Levels for Household Appliances / Medical Devices


Are you talking electrical (EMC) noise or Acoustic?

John Shinn

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Peter Merguerian
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:09 AM
To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) 
Subject: Noise Levels for Household Appliances / Medical Devices




Dear All,

Any recommended European or North American noise levels for household
appliances such as massagers? What are the applicable standards?

Any recommended European or North American noise levels for medical
equipment, such as massagers used by professionals in a therapy center? What
are the applicable standards?


This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If
you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate,
distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you
received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the
message and its attachments to the sender.



PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





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Medical devices, current limit

[Kim Boll Jensen]

Hi all

I have a medical device under EU directive 93/42/EEC. It is a class IIa
product and sends some small electrical pulses through the body for
treatments.

Does anyone know of any limit for the current ? (voltage is generated
from battery and is max. 16Vdc)

Does anyone have the current/frequency diagram over max. current the the
body can withstand without hazards ? (It is normally used for mains
leakage current protection).


Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen
Bolls Raadgivning
Denmark
attachment: kimboll.vcf

Re: Canadian EMC

[KC CHAN [PDD]]

You may try the following link for information

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/sf01698e.html 

or 

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/sf01372e.html#MiscellaneousDocuments 

to look for what you need.

 Joe P Martin marti...@appliedbiosystems.com 08/15/02 03:11am 

Greetings,

Canadian EMC standard for ISM equipment is defined in ICES-001 Issue 3
1998.  Similarly, the EMC standard for digital apparatus is defined in
ICES-003 Issue 3 1997.  These standards are based on CISPR requirements.

Are these standards required by Industry Canada or are they voluntary.  If
they are required, where is this information specified?

All responses are appreciated.

Regards

Joe Martin
Applied Biosystems
marti...@appliedbiosystems.com 






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Re: Meeting CISPR in Fast Ethernet board

[Dave Wilson]

Hi Bob,
Is it broadband noise? Maybe a DC-DC converter on the board? Or do you have a 
peak at 62.5MHz? The 8B/10B encoding gets you to 125MB/s, and an 0101 idle 
pattern effectively gives you 62.5MHz.
Best regards,
Dave
 Bob Patel wrote:
Hi! I had a question regarding meeting EMI on my board
for CISPR. I have a Fast Ethernet card and the 125MHz
Fast Ehternet fails the CISPR in the 30Mhz to 100Mhz
limit. 
In the layout care has been taken to isolate the
chassis or quiet ground from Digital ground by
isolating the ground from the secondary of the
magnetics to the connector where the cable gets
connected.
Does anybody have recommendations as to how should I
improve the board to meet CISPR in 30Mhz to 100Mhz.
Thanks
Bob

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Re: Meeting CISPR in Fast Ethernet board

[neven11]

Based on little info you have provided, I am making the 
following assumptions.
1) The noise is broadband noise coming from MLT3 signal 
(by fast you mean 100 Mbps?).
2) It is not from the power supplly, which can also 
radiate similarly looking noise in this portion of the 
spectrum.

You can find out easily if that is true if you switch to 
10 Mbps mode or even disconnect the other end of the UTP.

In that case, it is most likely that you may have 
chances fixing it by playing with the center-taps on 
the transformers (connect/disconnect etc.). I don't know 
anything about your layout or schematic, so try either 
side(s) of the transformer. Maybe you need to adjust the 
value of the center-tap cap. On the wire side you need 
to use high-voltage caps (if you are using them). This 
noise may be present on both Tx and Rx, so you might 
have to do it on both of them. You maybe have to spend 
some time figuring out if the levels on Tx and Rx are 
significantly different or not. The differential signals 
must be very symmetrical/balanced in layout too.

If the transceiver output stage is unbalanced quasi-
differential as some PHYs are, you may have hard time 
getting margin. You should be able to get it pass class 
A for e.g.24-port or class B for 1-2 port DUT, with UTP. 
You may have to ask your magnetics guys to tweak the 
part as well.

Cheers, Neven
 
 Hi! I had a question regarding meeting EMI on my board
 for CISPR. I have a Fast Ethernet card and the 125MHz
 Fast Ehternet fails the CISPR in the 30Mhz to 100Mhz
 limit. 
 In the layout care has been taken to isolate the
 chassis or quiet ground from Digital ground by
 isolating the ground from the secondary of the
 magnetics to the connector where the cable gets
 connected.
 Does anybody have recommendations as to how should I
 improve the board to meet CISPR in 30Mhz to 100Mhz.
 Thanks
 Bob
 
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RE: Creepage on PCB Internal Layers

[T.Sato]

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:22:21 -0400,
  John Juhasz john.juh...@ge-interlogix.com wrote:

 While a different standard was originally referenced in this thread, 
 I'd like to consider for a moment Chris Maxwell's question 
  ...there should be some minimum distance... on an inner layer of the
 boardL
 The 950-based standards have guidelines in this regard.
 
 In section 2.9.6 'Enclosed or Sealed Parts' 
 For components or sub-assemblies which are enclosed or hermetically
 sealed against ingress of dirt or moisture, and which satisfy the following 
 compliance requirements, the minimum internal CREEPAGE DISTANCES and
 CLEARANCES can be the values for Pollution Degree 1.

I think the clause wouldn't be applied in this situation.

In 60950, applicable clauses are 2.10.5.3 and 2.10.5.1 (I'm not
reading genuine IEC/EN 60950, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong) -
the former states that distance through insulation would be applied
in such situation, and the latter set minimum thickness of 0.4mm
for supplementary and reinforced insulation for peak working voltage
greater than 71V.

However, I think applying minimum distance for pollution degree 1 or
that for coated PCBs (clause 2.10.6) for inner layers when designing
PCBs are not bad idea, although both of them wouldn't be applied here.
The latter set, for example, minimum distance of 1.2mm for reinforced
insulation for working volgage up to 250V on coated PCBs.

Regards,
Tom

--
Tomonori Sato  vef00...@nifty.ne.jp
URL: http://member.nifty.ne.jp/tsato/

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Re: Laser Warnings

[ooverton]

Richard,

Another good one is http://www.freetranslation.com/;.
I usually translate the same text using both and compare the differences.
There usually are some.

I find this one easier to use when translating from another language into
English if you are having to type text directly as it has a list of the special
characters that English does not use (e.g. the diacritic marks on vowels).

Oscar, x22284






douglas_beckwith%mitel@interlock.lexmark.com on 08/15/2002 09:19:20 AM

Please respond to douglas_beckwith%mitel@interlock.lexmark.com

To:   richwoods%tycoint@interlock.lexmark.com
cc:   emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com (bcc: Oscar
  Overton/Lex/Lexmark)
Subject:  Re: Laser Warnings





Hi Richard,
Try this URL.  http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn
I have used this in the past and it fairly accurate. I suggest do the
translation and get someone who speaks the lingo to look at it for
technical correctness.
This is an inernational form, and I'm sure someone will be able to do that
for you.

Regards

Doug




richwo...@tycoint.com@majordomo.ieee.org on 08/14/2002 02:39:08 PM

Please respond to richwo...@tycoint.com

Sent by:  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org


To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:
Subject:  Laser Warnings



Can someone tell me where I can find translations of the following,
especially German.

Caution - Class 2 laser radiation when open. Do not stare into beam.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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Re: Laser Warnings

[Douglas_Beckwith]

Hi Richard,
Try this URL.  http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn
I have used this in the past and it fairly accurate. I suggest do the
translation and get someone who speaks the lingo to look at it for
technical correctness.
This is an inernational form, and I'm sure someone will be able to do that
for you.

Regards

Doug




richwo...@tycoint.com@majordomo.ieee.org on 08/14/2002 02:39:08 PM

Please respond to richwo...@tycoint.com

Sent by:  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org


To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:
Subject:  Laser Warnings



Can someone tell me where I can find translations of the following,
especially German.

Caution - Class 2 laser radiation when open. Do not stare into beam.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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