Re: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents
I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen ja014d7...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote (in 001f01c32a08$b6facaa0$0200a8c0@HOME2) about 'CENELEC Harmonisation Documents' on Tue, 3 Jun 2003: The reason is that I am trying to trace some older national regulations which were typically listed in the HD's as the reasons for national deviations to the base standards. These regulations were often more clearly called out than in the superceeding EN's. It wasn't the reason that you wanted the information that wasn't clear, it was precisely what you wanted. Has Rich Nute steered you to it? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Wire Colors
rbus...@es.com wrote on 06/03/2003 08:56:53 AM: I have a customer that wants to remove the power plug (and IEC 309 style) from our equipment and connect the wires to a power distribution system beneath the computer floor. This distribution system uses an IEC style din rail type of barrier strip where one inserts the bare wire into a hole and tightens two screws to affix the wire. My device is rated 200-240V single phase. When the plug is removed you have a blue, brown and green/yellow conductor. The power source is a 208V leg (two phase?) drop with two black wires. The electrician refuses to connect the blue (neutral) wire from the power cord to a black (phase) wire. How can I resolve this. Regardless of whether we are talking blue/brown or black/white, the white and blue are identified as neutral. Because we allow 200-240V single phase this does not preclude the use of 208V phase to phase input. Suggestions/Comments Thanks Rick Busche Evans Sutherland The power system you are dealing with is fairly common in commercial and light industrial settings. It is Y connected 3-phase power. It is 120 volts from phase to neutral, and 208 volts from phase to phase. For 208 volts, both conductors are hot with respect to ground. If the power input circuitry of the product is symmetric with respect to ground up to the diode bridge, then it is a matter of indifference which connection is called hot and which is called neutral, or if both are hot with respect to ground. Now let me step out of my element, so take this with the appropriate grains of salt. My suggestion would be to use power cable in which the colors are black, red, and yellow/green. If I remember correctly, red stands for something than can be either hot or neutral depending on circuit conditions. Don Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents
John The reason is that I am trying to trace some older national regulations which were typically listed in the HD's as the reasons for national deviations to the base standards. These regulations were often more clearly called out than in the superceeding EN's. John Allen ERA Technology (from home) - Original Message - From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:31 PM Subject: Re: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen john.al...@era.co.uk wrote (in BFE68AB0084CD311B4FB00508B014C8704D229A2@MERCURY) about 'CENELEC Harmonisation Documents' on Tue, 3 Jun 2003: Does anyone have, or know of, a list of HD's, including the cancelled ones? I am particularly interested in those relating to domestic appliances (CEE 10/11, IEC 335/60335), audio-visual equipment (CEE 1, IEC 65/60065) and portable tools (CEE ??, IEC 745/60745). It's not clear to me exactly what you want. In the history of EN 60065, for example, IEC 65 4th edition was adopted as HD 195 S3 but later the 5th edition with amendments was adopted as EN 60065. The situation with IEC/EN 60335 is immensely complex, since the Parts and Sections were re-numbered 'on the fly' some years ago, with considerable confusion for those not involved in the committee work. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Wire Colors
Suggest to replace your European power cord (L/N/GND) with a North-American one (L/L/GND). North-American power outlets don't allow to reverse L and N supply wires of an apparatus to avoid exposing the user to some 120VAC. Guess it's due to some appliances equipped with 2 wire power cords, where N is connected internally to an accessible metallic chassis or parts (old radio/TV receivers with non-isolated power supplies). That's why your electrician doesn't like connecting the facilities L to your device designated N. Alexandru G. From: rbus...@es.com [mailto:rbus...@es.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:57 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Wire Colors I have a customer that wants to remove the power plug (and IEC 309 style) from our equipment and connect the wires to a power distribution system beneath the computer floor. This distribution system uses an IEC style din rail type of barrier strip where one inserts the bare wire into a hole and tightens two screws to affix the wire. My device is rated 200-240V single phase. When the plug is removed you have a blue, brown and green/yellow conductor. The power source is a 208V leg (two phase?) drop with two black wires. The electrician refuses to connect the blue (neutral) wire from the power cord to a black (phase) wire. How can I resolve this. Regardless of whether we are talking blue/brown or black/white, the white and blue are identified as neutral. Because we allow 200-240V single phase this does not preclude the use of 208V phase to phase input. Suggestions/Comments Thanks Rick Busche Evans Sutherland This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Surge Suppressors on a UPS
From: Price, Ed Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:19 AM To: 'EMC-PSTC List' Subject: Surge Suppressors on a UPS Hi Group! Last Friday, I got ambushed in a meeting. I hate it when that happens! A question was asked about whether it's OK to put a surge suppressor on the output of a UPS that is supplying power to some expensive equipment. I opined that I didn't think it should be necessary, but that it also shouldn't hurt anything either. So then somebody asks me why all the UPS manufacturer's sites say not to use a surge suppressor. I expertly reply that gosh, I don't know, but I'll take a look. The next question nails me again. Are there any standards for UPS output power quality? Uh, well, I'll look into that too. Now, the market is light industrial, USA, but are there any applicable EN standards also? Just for some background, here's a typical entry from Tripp-Lite's FAQ list for UPS's (not to pick on Tripp-Lite; they just said it most succinctly of several sites I looked at): http://www.tripplite.com/support/faq/tech_ups.cfm Can I plug a surge suppressor or extension cord into my UPS? No. Using an extension cord will void your equipment coverage warranty, as all equipment must be plugged directly into the UPS. Tripp Lite does not recommend plugging a surge protector into a battery backup outlet of a UPS either as this can overload it. Also, when some UPS systems switch to battery power they will output a waveform that a surge suppressor may see as a surge and short-circuit the UPS. Again, this setup will void the equipment coverage warranty. Now this is getting to be a big can of worms! What do they mean by some UPS? Is there one kind that does, and another kind that doesn't; and how do you know which is which? And if some UPS will create a voltage transient (is that what they mean?) sufficient to trigger a surge suppressor, then why is it OK to let the UPS apply that transient to my protected equipment? All this talk about uninterrupted power isn't worth anything if the UPS kills my equipment when it switches to battery power mode. And who's fault is this? I mean, a surge suppressor is pretty dumb; it just sits there waiting for the voltage to go over a certain level and then it conducts. What's this about the surge suppressor may see something as a surge? That's saying the surge suppressor could mis-interpret the waveform it sees. If the surge suppressor is conducting, then I think the UPS has just done something very naughty. I also don't understand the prohibition of an extension cord. Maybe this is a legal issue, as I can't see any valid safety or regulation issues here. We regularly put a UPS in the bottom of a rack system, and then wire a stripline outlet set for the height of the rack. Isn't that the electrical equivalent of an extension cord? What am I missing? Thanks in advance! Ed I'm replying to my own post because, so far, my question has not really been answered. It HAS generated a really large volume of private emails expressing concern about things like what happens when you use a UPS to power equipment with built-in surge suppression. Or questions about just what are these switching event waveforms that a surge suppressor might want to suppress, and why should they be allowed to be applied to equipment without surge suppressors (equipment designed with the assumption that the UPS is protecting it from the public mains). It looks like racking and stacking a UPS, with a power distribution strip (the moral equivalent of an extension cord?) feeding a group of discrete electronics boxes (most of which have built-in filters and suppressors) is quite common. Yet UPS manufacturers seem to be saying that this bad practice and will even void the UPS warranty. So far, all comments have been from USERS of a UPS. I would like to hear from the other side, the UPS designers. (Privately if you must, but I would like to be able to later post unattributed answers.) Thanks again! Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty
Re: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents
On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:11:57 +0100 , John Allen john.al...@era.co.uk wrote: Does anyone have, or know of, a list of HD's, including the cancelled ones? I am particularly interested in those relating to domestic appliances (CEE 10/11, IEC 335/60335), audio-visual equipment (CEE 1, IEC 65/60065) and portable tools (CEE ??, IEC 745/60745). Sounds weird, I know, but there is a reason! Thanks in advance. John Allen, Technical Consultant Safety Risk Management ERA Technology Ltd. Cleeve Road Leatherhead Surrey KT22 7SA UK Tel: +44-1372-367025 (Direct) +44-1372-367000 (Switchboard) Fax: +44-1372-367102 I think the CENELEC website will give you current documents: 1) Go To www.cenelec.org 2) Select 'Standardization Activities' 3) In the field marked 'Standard Reference' simply type 'HD', then press the 'Run Report' button. You might get expired documents in step 3) by also selecting an entry in the 'Status' or 'Stage Code' field. I'm not familiar with HD documents, so I don't know how to read the results. Pat Lawler pat.law...@verizon.nett (change nett to net to reply) This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Wire Colors
I have a customer that wants to remove the power plug (and IEC 309 style) from our equipment and connect the wires to a power distribution system beneath the computer floor. This distribution system uses an IEC style din rail type of barrier strip where one inserts the bare wire into a hole and tightens two screws to affix the wire. My device is rated 200-240V single phase. When the plug is removed you have a blue, brown and green/yellow conductor. The power source is a 208V leg (two phase?) drop with two black wires. The electrician refuses to connect the blue (neutral) wire from the power cord to a black (phase) wire. How can I resolve this. Regardless of whether we are talking blue/brown or black/white, the white and blue are identified as neutral. Because we allow 200-240V single phase this does not preclude the use of 208V phase to phase input. Suggestions/Comments Thanks Rick Busche Evans Sutherland This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents
I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen john.al...@era.co.uk wrote (in BFE68AB0084CD311B4FB00508B014C8704D229A2@MERCURY) about 'CENELEC Harmonisation Documents' on Tue, 3 Jun 2003: Does anyone have, or know of, a list of HD's, including the cancelled ones? I am particularly interested in those relating to domestic appliances (CEE 10/11, IEC 335/60335), audio-visual equipment (CEE 1, IEC 65/60065) and portable tools (CEE ??, IEC 745/60745). It's not clear to me exactly what you want. In the history of EN 60065, for example, IEC 65 4th edition was adopted as HD 195 S3 but later the 5th edition with amendments was adopted as EN 60065. The situation with IEC/EN 60335 is immensely complex, since the Parts and Sections were re-numbered 'on the fly' some years ago, with considerable confusion for those not involved in the committee work. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Interconnecting Cables
I need to determine the robustness requirements for the outer insulation of an interconnecting cable for ITE when the cable contains hazardous voltages and when the cable will be in the same physical environment as the power cord. Clause 1.5.5 of EN 60950:2000 says that the cable must comply with the relevant requirements of the standard, but those requirements are not further specified in the standard. One might infer that the insulation must be no lighter than the requirements for power cords specified in Clause 3.2.5, but that is not clear. In particular, I need to determine if properly voltage rated computer interconnect cables (e.g., UL style 2464) are sufficiently robust to comply with the standard. Any suggestions on acceptable cable types/styles would be appreciated. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents
Rich So they are - I forgot the current list of HD's was at the end of the list (I rarely need to look that far down!!). Unfortunately, most of those which I am seeking are not on that list because they have been withdrawn after the EN's were issued. Thanks John Allen From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: 03 June 2003 16:01 To: john.al...@era.co.uk Subject: RE: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents A lot of HDs are listed here. http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstds/re flist/lvd.html Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International From: John Allen [mailto:john.al...@era.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 9:12 AM To: - EMC PSTC Posts (E-mail) Subject: CENELEC Harmonisation Documents Hi Folks Does anyone have, or know of, a list of HD's, including the cancelled ones? I am particularly interested in those relating to domestic appliances (CEE 10/11, IEC 335/60335), audio-visual equipment (CEE 1, IEC 65/60065) and portable tools (CEE ??, IEC 745/60745). Sounds weird, I know, but there is a reason! Thanks in advance. John Allen, Technical Consultant Safety Risk Management ERA Technology Ltd. Cleeve Road Leatherhead Surrey KT22 7SA UK Tel: +44-1372-367025 (Direct) +44-1372-367000 (Switchboard) Fax: +44-1372-367102 * Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2003. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated in confidence. No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments. _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com * Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2003. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated in confidence. No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments. _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Europe - Plugs - Legal requirements to fit
Hi Folks Help with the following would be appreciated. Can anyone identify any legal requirements/regulations (etc) to both supply AND FIT a plug to the mains power cord of electrical equipment for: a) Domestic and light commercial (shops, offices etc) use; b) Industrial and professional use. I am particularly interested in requirements in France, Italy and Germany, but have been unable to track down any so far. BTW: for the UK, the requirements for domestic equipment (only) are given in Statutory Instrument 1994 No 1768 Part 2 Clauses 11 and 12 (especially the latter). Thanks in advance. John Allen, Technical Consultant Safety Risk Management ERA Technology Ltd. Cleeve Road Leatherhead Surrey KT22 7SA UK Tel: +44-1372-367025 (Direct) +44-1372-367000 (Switchboard) Fax: +44-1372-367102 * Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2003. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated in confidence. No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments. _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
CENELEC Harmonisation Documents
Hi Folks Does anyone have, or know of, a list of HD's, including the cancelled ones? I am particularly interested in those relating to domestic appliances (CEE 10/11, IEC 335/60335), audio-visual equipment (CEE 1, IEC 65/60065) and portable tools (CEE ??, IEC 745/60745). Sounds weird, I know, but there is a reason! Thanks in advance. John Allen, Technical Consultant Safety Risk Management ERA Technology Ltd. Cleeve Road Leatherhead Surrey KT22 7SA UK Tel: +44-1372-367025 (Direct) +44-1372-367000 (Switchboard) Fax: +44-1372-367102 * Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2003. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated in confidence. No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments. _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: The Universal Plug Adapter!???
Hi Folks Having thought about it a bit, I reckon that this particular item is probably a spoof, or just an artistic impression concept model (God help someone if it is anything more!) BTW - The Nebula site appears to be in the USA: It gives the mailing address as nebulæ c/o Porcelain Vortex 5042 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 350 Los Angeles, CA 90036 U.S.A. However, it does raise quite a few important points and that has prompted an interesting set of comments from various eople, and does raise a point of professional ethics: If we, as regulatory safety professionals, encounter something like this which seems to be highly dangerous, then what should we do? - Nothing? - Tell the advertiser/supplier? - Tell the authorities in the countries concerned? - Tell the EU Commission if relevant? - Tell the world? Regards John Allen From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: 03 June 2003 07:56 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!??? I read in !emc-pstc that Enci emc-p...@cinepower.com wrote (in 5.1.1.6.2.20030603003016.00ba4...@mail.cinepower.com) about 'The Universal Plug Adapter!???' on Tue, 3 Jun 2003: but it has a large CE mark I get in response. It would be interesting to learn from the DOC which standards are cited. AFAIK, there IS no safety standard for 'universal adapters', so a Notified Body should have been involved. I hope the product has been brought to the attention of the appropriate authority. Maybe I am missing something, but does having CE Marking somehow extend an invisible shield around the product, akin to one or more levels of protection?!? Yes. of course. It's very powerful juju. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go toh ttp://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com * Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2003. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved.T he information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated in confidence. No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments. _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!???
I read in !emc-pstc that Enci emc-p...@cinepower.com wrote (in 5.1.1.6.2.20030603003016.00ba4...@mail.cinepower.com) about 'The Universal Plug Adapter!???' on Tue, 3 Jun 2003: but it has a large CE mark I get in response. It would be interesting to learn from the DOC which standards are cited. AFAIK, there IS no safety standard for 'universal adapters', so a Notified Body should have been involved. I hope the product has been brought to the attention of the appropriate authority. Maybe I am missing something, but does having CE Marking somehow extend an invisible shield around the product, akin to one or more levels of protection?!? Yes. of course. It's very powerful juju. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!???
I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com wrote (in 003301c3297b$a60ea640$868166d1@default) about 'The Universal Plug Adapter!???' on Mon, 2 Jun 2003: If my understanding is correct, that is the CE mark means the manufacturer believes the product complies with the applicable harmonized European standards, or exhibits an equivalent degree of safety and/or EMC if the 'Technical File Routes' are followed instead of applying standards. I conclude the sole purpose of the CE marking on these adapters is to lead the layperson to believe there ARE applicable standards, and that the thing complies with those standards. Quite. There are no harmonized standards for plugs or socket outlets - they are all CEE or national standards. So it is impossible for the manufacturer to claim compliance with a harmonized standard. The status of the old CEE standards is a bit uncertain. Industry is certainly still working to them on a large scale, of course. I have even heard the term CE Approved from time to time. Yes, well, people try to justify it as a 'shorthand' expression, but it's seriously misleading. But, on the otherhand, maybe I don't understand the correct use of the CE marking. I think you understand it very well. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!???
If my understanding is correct, that is the CE mark means the manufacturer believes the product complies with the applicable harmonized European standards, I conclude the sole purpose of the CE marking on these adapters is to lead the layperson to believe there ARE applicable standards, and that the thing complies with those standards. There are no harmonized standards for plugs or socket outlets - they are all CEE or national standards. So it is impossible for the manufacturer to claim compliance with a harmonized standard. I have even heard the term CE Approved from time to time. But, on the otherhand, maybe I don't understand the correct use of the CE marking. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: Enci emc-p...@cinepower.com To: John Allen john.al...@era.co.uk Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:50 PM Subject: Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!??? Hi John, Regarding all singing and dancing mains plug interface products Several months ago a colleague returning from USA proudly presented a universal travel plug adaptor. Not the same one in your link, but a different one. This design was based on sliding out the plug connection you wanted. The only problem was you could slide out all three male power connectors. A quick check with a continuity tester showed continuity between the relevant pins. L+L+L and N+N+N. The only level of safety to prevent electric shock is a single warning label warning not to extend all the plugs at the same time. but it has a large CE mark I get in response. Maybe I am missing something, but does having CE Marking somehow extend an invisible shield around the product, akin to one or more levels of protection?!? It makes me wonder what kind of dangerous products were being released onto the market before the advent of CE. .. the sad part is that it wasnt April 1st. Maybe the Compliance Magazine should have a, But it has a CE Mark, as a regular feature next to the banana skins section. Enci. At 17:42 02/06/2003 +0100, John Allen wrote: Hi Folks ... However, for the equivalent in mains plugs see http://www.nebulus.com/props/plug.html Personally I think it looks (insert your own - probably unprintable - comment)! God help anyone who trie to build or use one of these - all the unplugged-in pins are likely to be Live/Hot (with a vengence)! - or have a missed some subtle point in the design? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
