Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
Dear Rich, dear Doug Thank you very much for your professional answer. I really appreciate it. It helps me a lot and also to my client. One more question, is there any expert in this group who has real experience with new Hazard Based Standard IEC 62368-1? We are currently working on few projects and i think that some requirements are not really clear. Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering [SIQlogo60px] www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.si/ SIQ Ljubljana, Trzaska c. 2, SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia, VAT ID: SI23509678 t +386 (0)1 4778 265tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20265, m +386 (0)41 391 283tel:+386%20(0)41%20391%20283, f +386 (0)1 4778 444tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20444 On 6. avg. 2014, at 22:04, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.orgmailto:ri...@ieee.org wrote: Dear Boštjan: If the solar cells are hit by lightning, then the DC and inverter system will likely be destroyed, and the transient will propagate into the AC system. There is no way to protect against a direct lightning strike except to use a system of lightning rods, and they may not provide protection against propagation. Except for a direct lightning strike, no transients appear on the DC side, so OVC does not apply. The 120/240 V AC probably is OVC III, and maybe OVC IV. Since there is no isolation between the AC and the DC, both will see the same AC transients. Your DC side should use the same OVC as the AC side. In my opinion, UL has not fully studied IEC 60664 which is the definitive standard for OVC. UL has extended the OVC requirements to DC without researching the origin and value of transients on DC mains and instead has simply applied the AC OVC to DC mains. According to IEC 60664 and other authorities such as Francois Martzloff, transients on AC systems come from two sources, lightning and load switching. Your solar cell DC source is not subject to load switching, but is subject to a direct lightning strike. Your DC OVC due to load switching is zero, and your OVC due to lightning is beyond OVC IV. Some references: http://www.metrel.si/dl?d=PDF_dokumentacija/White_papers/Ang/White_paper_Overvoltages_and_high_current_breakdowns.pdf http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20090915_Aldous_Insulation_Coordination.pdf Best regards, Rich On 8/6/2014 11:25 AM, Boštjan Glavič wrote: Dear Rich, Thank you. DC input comes from solar cells therefore from outside. UL 1741 states that OVC IV needs to be used and for 120/240V it means 4000V. So what transient should I use from DC side? Why table 8.1 in UL840 also mentions dc input? Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
Bostjan, I would suggest you begin by reviewing this article at the IEC. http://www.iec.ch/etech/2013/etech_0313/tech-2.htm Thanks, - doug Douglas Powell http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 Original Message From: Boštjan Glavič Sent: Friday, August 8, 2014 8:51 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Boštjan Glavič Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter Dear Rich, dear Doug Thank you very much for your professional answer. I really appreciate it. It helps me a lot and also to my client. One more question, is there any expert in this group who has real experience with new Hazard Based Standard IEC 62368-1? We are currently working on few projects and i think that some requirements are not really clear. Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering [SIQlogo60px] www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.si/ SIQ Ljubljana, Trzaska c. 2, SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia, VAT ID: SI23509678 t +386 (0)1 4778 265tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20265, m +386 (0)41 391 283tel:+386%20(0)41%20391%20283, f +386 (0)1 4778 444tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20444 On 6. avg. 2014, at 22:04, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.orgmailto:ri...@ieee.org wrote: Dear Boštjan: If the solar cells are hit by lightning, then the DC and inverter system will likely be destroyed, and the transient will propagate into the AC system. There is no way to protect against a direct lightning strike except to use a system of lightning rods, and they may not provide protection against propagation. Except for a direct lightning strike, no transients appear on the DC side, so OVC does not apply. The 120/240 V AC probably is OVC III, and maybe OVC IV. Since there is no isolation between the AC and the DC, both will see the same AC transients. Your DC side should use the same OVC as the AC side. In my opinion, UL has not fully studied IEC 60664 which is the definitive standard for OVC. UL has extended the OVC requirements to DC without researching the origin and value of transients on DC mains and instead has simply applied the AC OVC to DC mains. According to IEC 60664 and other authorities such as Francois Martzloff, transients on AC systems come from two sources, lightning and load switching. Your solar cell DC source is not subject to load switching, but is subject to a direct lightning strike. Your DC OVC due to load switching is zero, and your OVC due to lightning is beyond OVC IV. Some references: http://www.metrel.si/dl?d=PDF_dokumentacija/White_papers/Ang/White_paper_Overvoltages_and_high_current_breakdowns.pdf http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20090915_Aldous_Insulation_Coordination.pdf Best regards, Rich On 8/6/2014 11:25 AM, Boštjan Glavič wrote: Dear Rich, Thank you. DC input comes from solar cells therefore from outside. UL 1741 states that OVC IV needs to be used and for 120/240V it means 4000V. So what transient should I use from DC side? Why table 8.1 in UL840 also mentions dc input? Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] understanding 62368 requirements
Bostjan, Since you are looking at 62368 - the Hazard Based Standard - you are on the bleeding edge of change in the application of this new safety standard; congratulations. Regarding experts, there are a number of folks in this group who have been involved in the development of this standard and probably hve a pretty good idea as to what has been intended in the development of the standard. There is another group of folks who are, like you, trying to understand the requirements - some from companies who are going thru the exercise of trying to apply it plus folks from well known cert labs who are doing the same thing. When these folks start talking to one another more then the nitty-gritty issues will rise to the top. Finally, TC 108 itself has written a document of explanation - the -2 rationale - which you should be reading thru along with the standard itself. Some well known cert labs are offering training sessions on the new HBStd; these should provide a good jump-start in understanding how the requirements are arranged (different than in the former standards) and the general approach in developing each of the requirements. As has been true in the past, this forum will be a good place to explore issues that arise in your own exploration of the new HBStd. If those of us who have been a part of this work for some time have done a good job in developing the requirements there should be fewer issues moving ahead. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org _ _ _ _ _ Dear Rich, dear Doug Thank you very much for your professional answer. I really appreciate it. It helps me a lot and also to my client. One more question, is there any expert in this group who has real experience with new Hazard Based Standard IEC 62368-1? We are currently working on few projects and i think that some requirements are not really clear. Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering [SIQlogo60px] www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.si/ SIQ Ljubljana, Trzaska c. 2, SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia, VAT ID: SI23509678 t +386 (0)1 4778 265tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20265, m +386 (0)41 391 283tel:+386%20(0)41%20391%20283, f +386 (0)1 4778 444tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20444 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
Doug, I did, also many other documents like UL technical briefs. I have exact technical questions. Maybe I prepare a new email and list some of them. Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering [SIQlogo60px] www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.si/ SIQ Ljubljana, Trzaska c. 2, SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia, VAT ID: SI23509678 t +386 (0)1 4778 265tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20265, m +386 (0)41 391 283tel:+386%20(0)41%20391%20283, f +386 (0)1 4778 444tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20444 On 8. avg. 2014, at 16:59, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.commailto:doug...@gmail.com wrote: Bostjan, I would suggest you begin by reviewing this article at the IEC. http://www.iec.ch/etech/2013/etech_0313/tech-2.htm Thanks, - doug Douglas Powell http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 Original Message From: Boštjan Glavič Sent: Friday, August 8, 2014 8:51 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Boštjan Glavič Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter Dear Rich, dear Doug Thank you very much for your professional answer. I really appreciate it. It helps me a lot and also to my client. One more question, is there any expert in this group who has real experience with new Hazard Based Standard IEC 62368-1? We are currently working on few projects and i think that some requirements are not really clear. Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering [SIQlogo60px] www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.si/ SIQ Ljubljana, Trzaska c. 2, SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia, VAT ID: SI23509678 t +386 (0)1 4778 265tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20265, m +386 (0)41 391 283tel:+386%20(0)41%20391%20283, f +386 (0)1 4778 444tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20444 On 6. avg. 2014, at 22:04, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.orgmailto:ri...@ieee.orgmailto:ri...@ieee.org wrote: Dear Boštjan: If the solar cells are hit by lightning, then the DC and inverter system will likely be destroyed, and the transient will propagate into the AC system. There is no way to protect against a direct lightning strike except to use a system of lightning rods, and they may not provide protection against propagation. Except for a direct lightning strike, no transients appear on the DC side, so OVC does not apply. The 120/240 V AC probably is OVC III, and maybe OVC IV. Since there is no isolation between the AC and the DC, both will see the same AC transients. Your DC side should use the same OVC as the AC side. In my opinion, UL has not fully studied IEC 60664 which is the definitive standard for OVC. UL has extended the OVC requirements to DC without researching the origin and value of transients on DC mains and instead has simply applied the AC OVC to DC mains. According to IEC 60664 and other authorities such as Francois Martzloff, transients on AC systems come from two sources, lightning and load switching. Your solar cell DC source is not subject to load switching, but is subject to a direct lightning strike. Your DC OVC due to load switching is zero, and your OVC due to lightning is beyond OVC IV. Some references: http://www.metrel.si/dl?d=PDF_dokumentacija/White_papers/Ang/White_paper_Overvoltages_and_high_current_breakdowns.pdf http://www.denverpels.org/Downloads/Denver_PELS_20090915_Aldous_Insulation_Coordination.pdf Best regards, Rich On 8/6/2014 11:25 AM, Boštjan Glavič wrote: Dear Rich, Thank you. DC input comes from solar cells therefore from outside. UL 1741 states that OVC IV needs to be used and for 120/240V it means 4000V. So what transient should I use from DC side? Why table 8.1 in UL840 also mentions dc input? Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com -
[PSES] Time Domain sVSWR measurements
Am I understanding these correctly? They sound like basically using a radar to measure VSWR. Send a pulse out, see what the response looks like. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Time Domain sVSWR measurements
In message 1407516613.62628.yahoomail...@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com, dated Fri, 8 Aug 2014, David 00fdec74198b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org writes: Am I understanding these correctly? They sound like basically using a radar to measure VSWR. Send a pulse out, see what the response looks like Yes. If you send out the pulse and nothing comes back, the device you sent it to is terminated correctly at the far end, so there is no reflection. If it isn't terminated correctly you will see a return pulse, upright or inverted, and if the device isn't correctly terminated at the sending end you will see successive reflections, decreasing in amplitude due to the losses in the device. It's a rather attractive technique. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Time Domain sVSWR measurements
www.ewh.ieee.org/r8/germany/emc/Flyer/2014-04-02-Hamburg_TD_sVSWR-Method%201.pdf mathematical magicians. Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 10:19 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Time Domain sVSWR measurements In message 1407516613.62628.yahoomail...@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com, dated Fri, 8 Aug 2014, David 00fdec74198b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org writes: Am I understanding these correctly? They sound like basically using a radar to measure VSWR. Send a pulse out, see what the response looks like Yes. If you send out the pulse and nothing comes back, the device you sent it to is terminated correctly at the far end, so there is no reflection. If it isn't terminated correctly you will see a return pulse, upright or inverted, and if the device isn't correctly terminated at the sending end you will see successive reflections, decreasing in amplitude due to the losses in the device. It's a rather attractive technique. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
Dear Boštjan: I participated in most of the drafting of IEC 62368-1. Please feel free to ask questions. So did Pete Perkins. I don't know if others also subscribe to this group. Best regards, Rich On 8/8/2014 7:51 AM, Boštjan Glavič wrote: Dear Rich, dear Doug Thank you very much for your professional answer. I really appreciate it. It helps me a lot and also to my client. One more question, is there any expert in this group who has real experience with new Hazard Based Standard IEC 62368-1? We are currently working on few projects and i think that some requirements are not really clear. Best regards, Bostjan Boštjan Glavič Vodja laboratorija, Laboratorij za elektroniko Head of Laboratory, Laboratory of Electronic Engineering [SIQlogo60px] www.siq.sihttp://www.siq.si/ SIQ Ljubljana, Trzaska c. 2, SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia, VAT ID: SI23509678 t +386 (0)1 4778 265tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20265, m +386 (0)41 391 283tel:+386%20(0)41%20391%20283, f +386 (0)1 4778 444tel:+386%20(0)1%204778%20444 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] FW: IEC 62368-1 rated AC input connector amperage differs from North America
Dear Colleagues, Does EN/IEC 60065 and/or EN/IEC 62368-1 allow product marking a AC input to use rating 250V~, 32A when the appliance coupler AC rating is 250V~, 32A rating by VDE license? I plan to use a IEC 60309 style 250V~ 32A Plug connector with appropriate cordage. This is single phase Line, Neutral, Earth cabling. Summary for the EU 32 plug with 32 Inlet = 32A rated input. The USA and Canadian versions of IEC 60065 require a cord connector at 125% of the inlet rating so we are re-rating the product to 24A using a NEMA L6-30 Plug (30A plug). The same inlet from above is rated 32A USA and 30A Canada. Will agencies sign-off on a dual AC Input current rating such as: 100-250V~ 50-60Hz 24A rated cNRTLus Listed 32A rated EN/IEC Certified Any suggestions of the correct text to use would be gladly accepted. Respectfully, Chuck McDowell NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information. Please see http://www.meyersound.com/confidential/ for our complete policy. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
My understanding as well, namely, OV categorization in power distribution is based on indirect (near-by) lightning strikes. ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 08/06/2014 01:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter In message 53e28a32.4020...@ieee.org, dated Wed, 6 Aug 2014, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.org writes: . Your solar cell DC source is not subject to load switching, but is subject to a direct lightning strike. Your DC OVC due to load switching is zero, and your OVC due to lightning is beyond OVC IV. Is resistance to a direct lighting strike required of civilian products? I though that only 'indirect strike' was to be resisted, and OVC IV was based on that. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Definition of unsafe product
Certainly appears that they did. As I understand it, the DofC doesn't even need to accompany the product, only that the product bear the CE mark. ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 07/31/2014 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Definition of unsafe product A little different problem than Mr. Xe is experiencing, but we recently had a product stopped at Customs in an EU country because the Declaration of Conformity supplied with the product did not call out the latest amendment to an applicable harmonized standard. We had previously performed an assessment to the latest amendment and determined no impact on our product, so quickly drew up a new Declaration to reference the latest amendment. This was insufficient to Customs. They required us to also provide evidence that we had done that assessment. We had no choice but to comply and provide the evidence because we couldn't afford to have this shipment held up any longer. My point here is that I think Customs overstepped their authority. Jim Hulbert Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
IEC 62109-1 considers “PV circuits in general” to be OVCII. Regards, Peter Tarver *From:* McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] *Sent:* Friday, August 08, 2014 13:57 *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter My understanding as well, namely, OV categorization in power distribution is based on indirect (near-by) lightning strikes. ___ *Ralph McDiarmid* | * Schneider Electric | Solar Business* | *CANADA* | *Regulatory Compliance Engineering* From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 08/06/2014 01:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter -- In message 53e28a32.4020...@ieee.org, dated Wed, 6 Aug 2014, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.org writes: . Your solar cell DC source is not subject to load switching, but is subject to a direct lightning strike. Your DC OVC due to load switching is zero, and your OVC due to lightning is beyond OVC IV. Is resistance to a direct lighting strike required of civilian products? I though that only 'indirect strike' was to be resisted, and OVC IV was based on that. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] FW: IEC 62368-1 rated AC input connector amperage differs from North America
Chuck, the rating on the product should be the max steady state current. The NEC requires the plug to be rated 125% of the max continuous current, which depending on the product can be significantly less. You can put both ratings on your product if you want. In North America the power cord and connectors must be sized to be protected by the Branch Circuit Breaker but in Europe they can be protected by the downstream supplementary protector. The Other Brian Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Chuck McDowell Date:08/08/2014 4:37 PM (GMT-05:00) To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] FW: IEC 62368-1 rated AC input connector amperage differs from North America Dear Colleagues, Does EN/IEC 60065 and/or EN/IEC 62368-1 allow product marking a AC input to use rating 250V~, 32A when the appliance coupler AC rating is 250V~, 32A rating by VDE license? I plan to use a IEC 60309 style 250V~ 32A Plug connector with appropriate cordage. This is single phase Line, Neutral, Earth cabling. Summary for the EU 32 plug with 32 Inlet = 32A rated input. The USA and Canadian versions of IEC 60065 require a cord connector at 125% of the inlet rating so we are re-rating the product to 24A using a NEMA L6-30 Plug (30A plug). The same inlet from above is rated 32A USA and 30A Canada. Will agencies sign-off on a dual AC Input current rating such as: 100-250V~ 50-60Hz 24A rated cNRTLus Listed 32A rated EN/IEC Certified Any suggestions of the correct text to use would be gladly accepted. Respectfully, Chuck McDowell NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information. Please see http://www.meyersound.com/confidential/ for our complete policy. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter
Peter, All well and good per IEC 62109 however the 800lb gorilla NRTL assessed the PV DC current monitor assembly (a piece of measurment equipment) to be OV CAT IV when it was assessed for certification. The manufacturer grumbled somewhat (since it wasn't designed for that OV category) but agreed that it was probably appropriate, as did I. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 3:47 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter IEC 62109-1 considers “PV circuits in general” to be OVCII. Regards, Peter Tarver From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 13:57 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter My understanding as well, namely, OV categorization in power distribution is based on indirect (near-by) lightning strikes. ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 08/06/2014 01:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] question with regard of inverter _ In message 53e28a32.4020...@ieee.org, dated Wed, 6 Aug 2014, Richard Nute ri...@ieee.org writes: . Your solar cell DC source is not subject to load switching, but is subject to a direct lightning strike. Your DC OVC due to load switching is zero, and your OVC due to lightning is beyond OVC IV. Is resistance to a direct lighting strike required of civilian products? I though that only 'indirect strike' was to be resisted, and OVC IV was based on that. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list,
Re: [PSES] FW: IEC 62368-1 rated AC input connector amperage differs from North America
Other Brian, Can you cite which clauses of which standards say In North America the power cord and connectors must be sized to be protected by the Branch Circuit Breaker but in Europe they can be protected by the downstream supplementary protector? I was looking for that the other day. Thanks -Dave From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] FW: IEC 62368-1 rated AC input connector amperage differs from North America Chuck, the rating on the product should be the max steady state current. The NEC requires the plug to be rated 125% of the max continuous current, which depending on the product can be significantly less. You can put both ratings on your product if you want. In North America the power cord and connectors must be sized to be protected by the Branch Circuit Breaker but in Europe they can be protected by the downstream supplementary protector. The Other Brian Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S(r)4, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Chuck McDowell Date:08/08/2014 4:37 PM (GMT-05:00) To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] FW: IEC 62368-1 rated AC input connector amperage differs from North America Dear Colleagues, Does EN/IEC 60065 and/or EN/IEC 62368-1 allow product marking a AC input to use rating 250V~, 32A when the appliance coupler AC rating is 250V~, 32A rating by VDE license? I plan to use a IEC 60309 style 250V~ 32A Plug connector with appropriate cordage. This is single phase Line, Neutral, Earth cabling. Summary for the EU 32 plug with 32 Inlet = 32A rated input. The USA and Canadian versions of IEC 60065 require a cord connector at 125% of the inlet rating so we are re-rating the product to 24A using a NEMA L6-30 Plug (30A plug). The same inlet from above is rated 32A USA and 30A Canada. Will agencies sign-off on a dual AC Input current rating such as: 100-250V~ 50-60Hz 24A rated cNRTLus Listed 32A rated EN/IEC Certified Any suggestions of the correct text to use would be gladly accepted. Respectfully, Chuck McDowell NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information. Please see http://www.meyersound.com/confidential/ for our complete policy. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
Re: [PSES] Definition of unsafe product
Yes, they seem to do too much as required. On other side, I was told some customs want to see CE mark on export cartons so they do not need to inquire the DoC and keep uptodate of applicable standards and theirs latest versions. Thus you may see the CE mark on export cartons that are not required by the directive. Scott On 9 Aug, 2014, at 6:47 am, McDiarmid, Ralph ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Certainly appears that they did. As I understand it, the DofC doesn't even need to accompany the product, only that the product bear the CE mark. ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 07/31/2014 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Definition of unsafe product A little different problem than Mr. Xe is experiencing, but we recently had a product stopped at Customs in an EU country because the Declaration of Conformity supplied with the product did not call out the latest amendment to an applicable harmonized standard. We had previously performed an assessment to the latest amendment and determined no impact on our product, so quickly drew up a new Declaration to reference the latest amendment. This was insufficient to Customs. They required us to also provide evidence that we had done that assessment. We had no choice but to comply and provide the evidence because we couldn't afford to have this shipment held up any longer. My point here is that I think Customs overstepped their authority. Jim Hulbert Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
