Re: [PSES] 60601 Electrocardiographs

[Ruth Shapira]

Hi Matthew,
Seem that your interpretation is correct. You need 2-25.
2-27 is for monitoring units. If your device do this (for all biological 
signals specified in your message) you can use this standard.
2-25 consists on the previous 2-25 + 2-51 (which was for interpretation of 
ECG). Especially, if your product is a SW for processing the records of the 
specified biological signals (collected by other parts of the system) for ECG 
signals you need to use 2-25. For the other signals your SW need to treated as 
a whole in the Risk Management File of the system and for all system need to be 
validated and for the life cycle apply IEC 62304.
I hope that the above can help.

Best Regards and Be Safe,
Steli


Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE
VP for Technical Activities and Member of BoG IEEE-PSES
Convener IEC 62A/MT29+MT 62354
17-3 Shaul HaMelech Blvd.
Tel Aviv 6436719
Israel
Tel:+972-3-6912668
Fax:+972-3-6913988
Mobile:+972-54-4818816
e-mail: sloz...@ieee.org

From: Matthew D. Varas 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 9:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 60601 Electrocardiographs

Hello,

I am a bit confused about the 60601 particular standard for one of our devices. 
The previous version of the device had been designed to EC13 back in the stone 
age and it is being fully redesigned.

My confusion is determining which particular is more appropriate, 60601-2-25 or 
60601-2-27. The device in question is part of a system records heart rate, 
blood pressure, and some other parameters and records them in our software. 
These recordings are analyzed by the software, compared against normative data, 
and presented to the physician so they can make a diagnosis. We own -2-27 but 
not -2-25. Reading through -2-27 it feels like it is targeted more toward 
monitors that would be used in a life-sustaining scenario whereas the abstract 
for -2-25 specifically mentions "for the production of electrocardiogram 
reports for diagnostic purposes." I interpret this to mean that -2-25 is the 
correct particular standard to use for our device.

Is my thinking correct? If not, can someone help me understand the differences 
between the two?

Thank you,

Matthew Varas
Electrical Engineer
WR Medical Electronics Co
1700 Gervais Avenue | Maplewood, MN 55109 | U.S.A.
Office: 651.604.8473
m...@wrmed.com

-


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[MIKE]

When faced with a similar situation a few years ago in a smaller jurisdiction, 
the local AHJ had us send a formal request to the state fire marshal regarding 
why interpreting their existing code in light of the latest NFPA version made 
sense. We did and the state fire marshal blessed it.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

Sent from Xfinity Connect App

-- Original Message --

From: Joe Randolph
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: October 30, 2020 at 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

Yes, apparently, the authority to impose an electrical code rests with the 
individual states (and sometimes individual jurisdictions with a given state). 
I’m not sure why, but there is probably some constitutional reason why this is 
controlled by the individual states rather than the Federal government.

I did not mention this in my earlier attempt at providing a “simple answer,” 
but I believe certain states, such as California, have their own electrical 
code and do not simply call out NFPA 70. And, I think certain cities have their 
own codes. So, the individual states are not acting in unison.

Scott points out another problem with the current situation of having local 
authority over the electrical code. Namely, that different jurisdictions use 
different editions of NFPA 70 as their local electric code. Updated editions of 
NFPA 70 are issued every three years.

I work a lot with communication equipment that is covered by Chapter 8 of NFPA 
70. Over last several years some significant changes have been made in Chapter 
8, mostly in terms of revising outdated requirements to better address new 
communications technology. Significant changes were made in the 2017 edition, 
and again in the 2020 edition.

Unfortunately, some jurisdictions are still using older versions, as early as 
the 2008 edition. Typically, the adoption of a specific edition requires a vote 
of the State Legislature, and they sometimes fail to update their laws when a 
new edition comes out.

This makes it challenging to take advantage of the clarifications/improvements 
that have been incorporated into newer editions of NFPA 70.

Fortunately, most electrical inspectors are open to considering the latest 
edition of NFPA 70, even if their local law refers to an earlier edition. 
However, they are not obligated to do so.

Joe Randolph

Telecom Design Consultant

Randolph Telecom, Inc.

781-721-2848 (USA)

j...@randolph-telecom.com (mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com)

http://www.randolph-telecom.com (http://www.randolph-telecom.com/)

From: Scott Aldous [mailto:scottald...@google.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 11:41 AM
To: Joe Randolph 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

I agree with Joe. Since jurisdictions across the US do not adopt the same 
revision of NFPA 70 
(https://www.nema.org/docs/default-source/technical-document-library/nec-adoption-map.pdf),
 mandating a single edition at the federal level could be problematic.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:15 AM Joe Randolph mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com)> wrote:

>
> Hi Doug:
>
>
>
>
>
> The short answer is that compliance with NFPA 70 is, in fact, the law in most 
> states and localities.
>
>
>
>
>
> Most states have passed laws that require compliance with NFPA 70. In these 
> states, when the electrical inspector visits a site, the code book used to 
> determine compliance with the state’s electrical code is NFPA 70.
>
>
>
>
>
> I think the situation is similar to the ITU standards, which are officially 
> called “Recommendations” and do not, by themselves, have the force of law. 
> However, the laws in many countries call out certain ITU standards.
>
>
>
>
>
> Similarly, UL standards in the USA are not, by themselves, legally binding. 
> However, many UL standards are called out by law by OSHA and in state 
> electrical codes (which typically call out NFPA 70).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Randolph
>
>
> Telecom Design Consultant
>
>
> Randolph Telecom, Inc.
>
>
> 781-721-2848 (tel:(781)%20721-2848) (USA)
>
>
> j...@randolph-telecom.com (mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com)
>
>
> http://www.randolph-telecom.com (http://www.randolph-telecom.com/)
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Douglas Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 10:00 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG (mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG)
> Subject: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?
>
>
>
>
>
> My Friday Question,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not laws."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I recently saw a clarification stating:
>
>
> >
> > "As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it has 
> > not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore, 
> > compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in 
> > cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident."
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit organization 
> and not 

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Douglas Powell]

I suppose online access by subscription is a viable option but only if the
quality and usability is better than the free version. So far, this free
version doesn't showcase the product very well.

Have a great weekend.  ~doug

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:56 PM Scott Aldous  wrote:

> Hi Doug,
>
> The free viewer works great... if your goal is to comply with the letter
> of the law of providing free access while still attempting to maximize your
> revenue from sales of the docs.
>
> I hadn't heard about no more pdf version available from NFPA. Looks like
> they have a digital access version
> , which
> is a subscription service, and requires access to the internet to use. If a
> subscription will give you access to all the NFPA docs, that would be more
> interesting, but it doesn't look like this is the case. From this site
> :
>
> Q: What information and content will I be able to access with NFPA LiNK™?
> A: NFPA LiNK™ includes the four most recent editions of the *NEC*® (NFPA
> 70®) and NFPA 70E® (2021), *Standard for Electrical Safety in the
> Workplace®*, but you can expect to see codes and standards covering a
> variety of topics being added to NFPA LiNK™ on an ongoing basis.
> Eventually, NFPA LiNK™ will house additional NFPA codes and standards,
> expert commentary, visual aids, and more. With a subscription to NFPA
> LiNK™, you will have unlimited access to all of this!
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 1:44 PM Douglas Powell  wrote:
>
>> Yes,
>>
>> This "free" version is what I was referring to about being very deficient
>> with regard to usability. The pages cannot be scaled and are in jpg format
>> only. To search for content you can only page through.  You can find a
>> table of contents but chapter level is about as granular as it gets. These
>> codes are very expensive and I've been needing to research content of
>> several: NFPA 1, NFPA 2, NFPA 55, NFPA 70, NFPA 70E, NFPA 79, NFPA 497, and
>> NFPA 855. Using this "free viewer" is very painful when there are
>> potentially 1,800 pages of code to read.
>>
>> I've recently learned the NFPA is going away from purchased PDF and doing
>> hardcopy only, this is really going backward.
>>
>> Oh well, it's almost time for  the weekend, so I'll tackle it again on
>> Monday,
>>
>> Best, Doug
>>
>> --
>> Definition of EXPERT - ex·pert /ˈekˌspərt/
>>
>> noun
>> a person who is a "*has been*" (ex-) and "*drip under pressure*"
>> (-spurt)
>>
>> Usage: "*a compliance engineering expert weenie*"
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Scott Aldous 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FYI, the California version of the code is also available to view online
>>> for free:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/codes-and-standards/free-access?mode=view
>>>
>>> There is a California Article 89 which is specific to the state of CA,
>>> and various amendments throughout, with amendments varying depending on the
>>> agency involved. There is a table before each article which gives a
>>> summary. Example:
>>>
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:24 PM Douglas Powell 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Rich,

 I knew about adoption policies and actually have a web monitor on
 https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps so I
 can capture any updates.  I recommend reading the report "Falling behind on
 electrical safety" .

 I suppose that when adopted by any locality into law, then those
 portions may become publicly available. The NEC is on a three-year cycle
 and the example I always think of is LA County & City. Even though the
 State of Calif may at times be up to date, They are at least one edition
 behind at all times.

 Being optimistically cautious in Colorado...

 Doug

 On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:47 AM Richard Nute  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Hi Doug:
>
>
>
> If I remember correctly, the intro to the NEC says that it is a model
> for adoption by various AHJs.
>
>
>
> In Oregon, each edition of NFPA 70 is formally adopted with exceptions
> and additions.  So, most of NFPA 70 is law.  The amendments are freely
> available.  Many other jurisdictions do the same.
>
>
>
> 2017 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC)
> 
> Effective Oct. 1, 2017
> Based on the 2017 NFPA 70, National Electrical Code
> Oregon amendments to the 2017 NEC *Updated Oct. 2020*
> 
>
>
>
> Stay safe!
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Douglas Powell 
> *Sent:* Friday, October 

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Scott Aldous]

Hi Doug,

The free viewer works great... if your goal is to comply with the letter of
the law of providing free access while still attempting to maximize your
revenue from sales of the docs.

I hadn't heard about no more pdf version available from NFPA. Looks like
they have a digital access version
, which is
a subscription service, and requires access to the internet to use. If a
subscription will give you access to all the NFPA docs, that would be more
interesting, but it doesn't look like this is the case. From this site
:

Q: What information and content will I be able to access with NFPA LiNK™?
A: NFPA LiNK™ includes the four most recent editions of the *NEC*® (NFPA 70®)
and NFPA 70E® (2021), *Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace®*,
but you can expect to see codes and standards covering a variety of topics
being added to NFPA LiNK™ on an ongoing basis. Eventually, NFPA LiNK™ will
house additional NFPA codes and standards, expert commentary, visual aids,
and more. With a subscription to NFPA LiNK™, you will have unlimited access
to all of this!

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 1:44 PM Douglas Powell  wrote:

> Yes,
>
> This "free" version is what I was referring to about being very deficient
> with regard to usability. The pages cannot be scaled and are in jpg format
> only. To search for content you can only page through.  You can find a
> table of contents but chapter level is about as granular as it gets. These
> codes are very expensive and I've been needing to research content of
> several: NFPA 1, NFPA 2, NFPA 55, NFPA 70, NFPA 70E, NFPA 79, NFPA 497, and
> NFPA 855. Using this "free viewer" is very painful when there are
> potentially 1,800 pages of code to read.
>
> I've recently learned the NFPA is going away from purchased PDF and doing
> hardcopy only, this is really going backward.
>
> Oh well, it's almost time for  the weekend, so I'll tackle it again on
> Monday,
>
> Best, Doug
>
> --
> Definition of EXPERT - ex·pert /ˈekˌspərt/
>
> noun
> a person who is a "*has been*" (ex-) and "*drip under pressure*"
> (-spurt)
>
> Usage: "*a compliance engineering expert weenie*"
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Scott Aldous 
> wrote:
>
>> FYI, the California version of the code is also available to view online
>> for free:
>>
>>
>> https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/codes-and-standards/free-access?mode=view
>>
>> There is a California Article 89 which is specific to the state of CA,
>> and various amendments throughout, with amendments varying depending on the
>> agency involved. There is a table before each article which gives a
>> summary. Example:
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:24 PM Douglas Powell 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rich,
>>>
>>> I knew about adoption policies and actually have a web monitor on
>>> https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps so I
>>> can capture any updates.  I recommend reading the report "Falling behind on
>>> electrical safety" .
>>>
>>> I suppose that when adopted by any locality into law, then those
>>> portions may become publicly available. The NEC is on a three-year cycle
>>> and the example I always think of is LA County & City. Even though the
>>> State of Calif may at times be up to date, They are at least one edition
>>> behind at all times.
>>>
>>> Being optimistically cautious in Colorado...
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:47 AM Richard Nute  wrote:
>>>




 Hi Doug:



 If I remember correctly, the intro to the NEC says that it is a model
 for adoption by various AHJs.



 In Oregon, each edition of NFPA 70 is formally adopted with exceptions
 and additions.  So, most of NFPA 70 is law.  The amendments are freely
 available.  Many other jurisdictions do the same.



 2017 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC)
 
 Effective Oct. 1, 2017
 Based on the 2017 NFPA 70, National Electrical Code
 Oregon amendments to the 2017 NEC *Updated Oct. 2020*
 



 Stay safe!

 Rich







 *From:* Douglas Powell 
 *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 7:00 AM
 *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 *Subject:* [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?



 My Friday Question,



 NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not
 laws."



 I recently saw a clarification stating:

 "*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it
 has not been incorporated into the Code of F

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[IBM Ken]

The NFPA is acutely aware of this opinion and considers it an existential
crisis.  They have been sending out communications for years to their
membership making the case that NFPA codes should not be free and the fees
paid for them go directly towards improving safety.  Just one example:

https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Publications-and-media/Sign-up-for-NFPA-Network/Newsletter-main/NFPA-Network-August-2020

-Ken A.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 10:00 AM Douglas Powell  wrote:

> My Friday Question,
>
> NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not
> laws."
>
> I recently saw a clarification stating:
>
> "*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it
> has not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore,
> compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in
> cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident*."
>
>
> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit
> organization and not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best
> known published document is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code
> or NEC ®. And indeed, this code has been translated and adopted in other
> countries in places like Latin America
> .
> Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a
> legal requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having
> Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.
>
> Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone
> wants to point out that in this country any code which is officially
> mandated law must be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed
> offer a "free view" but these are very deficient with regard to usability.
>
> The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?
>
> Food for thought...
>
> Doug
>
> --
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Douglas Powell]

Yes,

This "free" version is what I was referring to about being very deficient
with regard to usability. The pages cannot be scaled and are in jpg format
only. To search for content you can only page through.  You can find a
table of contents but chapter level is about as granular as it gets. These
codes are very expensive and I've been needing to research content of
several: NFPA 1, NFPA 2, NFPA 55, NFPA 70, NFPA 70E, NFPA 79, NFPA 497, and
NFPA 855. Using this "free viewer" is very painful when there are
potentially 1,800 pages of code to read.

I've recently learned the NFPA is going away from purchased PDF and doing
hardcopy only, this is really going backward.

Oh well, it's almost time for  the weekend, so I'll tackle it again on
Monday,

Best, Doug

--
Definition of EXPERT - ex·pert /ˈekˌspərt/

noun
a person who is a "*has been*" (ex-) and "*drip under pressure*"
(-spurt)

Usage: "*a compliance engineering expert weenie*"


On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Scott Aldous  wrote:

> FYI, the California version of the code is also available to view online
> for free:
>
>
> https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/codes-and-standards/free-access?mode=view
>
> There is a California Article 89 which is specific to the state of CA, and
> various amendments throughout, with amendments varying depending on the
> agency involved. There is a table before each article which gives a
> summary. Example:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:24 PM Douglas Powell  wrote:
>
>> Rich,
>>
>> I knew about adoption policies and actually have a web monitor on
>> https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps so I can
>> capture any updates.  I recommend reading the report "Falling behind on
>> electrical safety" .
>>
>> I suppose that when adopted by any locality into law, then those portions
>> may become publicly available. The NEC is on a three-year cycle and the
>> example I always think of is LA County & City. Even though the State of
>> Calif may at times be up to date, They are at least one edition behind at
>> all times.
>>
>> Being optimistically cautious in Colorado...
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:47 AM Richard Nute  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Doug:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly, the intro to the NEC says that it is a model
>>> for adoption by various AHJs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In Oregon, each edition of NFPA 70 is formally adopted with exceptions
>>> and additions.  So, most of NFPA 70 is law.  The amendments are freely
>>> available.  Many other jurisdictions do the same.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2017 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC)
>>> 
>>> Effective Oct. 1, 2017
>>> Based on the 2017 NFPA 70, National Electrical Code
>>> Oregon amendments to the 2017 NEC *Updated Oct. 2020*
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stay safe!
>>>
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Douglas Powell 
>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 7:00 AM
>>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> *Subject:* [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My Friday Question,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not
>>> laws."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I recently saw a clarification stating:
>>>
>>> "*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it
>>> has not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore,
>>> compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in
>>> cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident*."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit
>>> organization and not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best
>>> known published document is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code
>>> or NEC ®. And indeed, this code has been translated and adopted in
>>> other countries in places like Latin America
>>> .
>>> Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a
>>> legal requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having
>>> Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone
>>> wants to point out that in this country any code which is officially
>>> mandated law must be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed
>>> offer a "free view" but these are very deficient with regard to usability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Food for thought...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Douglas E Powell
>>>
>>> doug...@gmail.com
>>>

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Scott Aldous]

FYI, the California version of the code is also available to view online
for free:

https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/codes-and-standards/free-access?mode=view

There is a California Article 89 which is specific to the state of CA, and
various amendments throughout, with amendments varying depending on the
agency involved. There is a table before each article which gives a
summary. Example:

[image: image.png]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:24 PM Douglas Powell  wrote:

> Rich,
>
> I knew about adoption policies and actually have a web monitor on
> https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps so I can
> capture any updates.  I recommend reading the report "Falling behind on
> electrical safety" .
>
> I suppose that when adopted by any locality into law, then those portions
> may become publicly available. The NEC is on a three-year cycle and the
> example I always think of is LA County & City. Even though the State of
> Calif may at times be up to date, They are at least one edition behind at
> all times.
>
> Being optimistically cautious in Colorado...
>
> Doug
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:47 AM Richard Nute  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Doug:
>>
>>
>>
>> If I remember correctly, the intro to the NEC says that it is a model for
>> adoption by various AHJs.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Oregon, each edition of NFPA 70 is formally adopted with exceptions
>> and additions.  So, most of NFPA 70 is law.  The amendments are freely
>> available.  Many other jurisdictions do the same.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC)
>> 
>> Effective Oct. 1, 2017
>> Based on the 2017 NFPA 70, National Electrical Code
>> Oregon amendments to the 2017 NEC *Updated Oct. 2020*
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay safe!
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Douglas Powell 
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 7:00 AM
>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?
>>
>>
>>
>> My Friday Question,
>>
>>
>>
>> NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not
>> laws."
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently saw a clarification stating:
>>
>> "*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it
>> has not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore,
>> compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in
>> cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident*."
>>
>>
>>
>> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit
>> organization and not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best
>> known published document is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code
>> or NEC ®. And indeed, this code has been translated and adopted in other
>> countries in places like Latin America
>> .
>> Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a
>> legal requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having
>> Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone
>> wants to point out that in this country any code which is officially
>> mandated law must be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed
>> offer a "free view" but these are very deficient with regard to usability.
>>
>>
>>
>> The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?
>>
>>
>>
>> Food for thought...
>>
>>
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Douglas E Powell
>>
>> doug...@gmail.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>


-- 
Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Manager | scottald...@google.com |
 650-253-1994

-

[PSES] 60601 Electrocardiographs

[Matthew D. Varas]

Hello,

I am a bit confused about the 60601 particular standard for one of our devices. 
The previous version of the device had been designed to EC13 back in the stone 
age and it is being fully redesigned.

My confusion is determining which particular is more appropriate, 60601-2-25 or 
60601-2-27. The device in question is part of a system records heart rate, 
blood pressure, and some other parameters and records them in our software. 
These recordings are analyzed by the software, compared against normative data, 
and presented to the physician so they can make a diagnosis. We own -2-27 but 
not -2-25. Reading through -2-27 it feels like it is targeted more toward 
monitors that would be used in a life-sustaining scenario whereas the abstract 
for -2-25 specifically mentions "for the production of electrocardiogram 
reports for diagnostic purposes." I interpret this to mean that -2-25 is the 
correct particular standard to use for our device.

Is my thinking correct? If not, can someone help me understand the differences 
between the two?

Thank you,

Matthew Varas
Electrical Engineer
WR Medical Electronics Co
1700 Gervais Avenue | Maplewood, MN 55109 | U.S.A.
Office: 651.604.8473
m...@wrmed.com


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Douglas Powell]

Rich,

I knew about adoption policies and actually have a web monitor on
https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps so I can
capture any updates.  I recommend reading the report "Falling behind on
electrical safety" .

I suppose that when adopted by any locality into law, then those portions
may become publicly available. The NEC is on a three-year cycle and the
example I always think of is LA County & City. Even though the State of
Calif may at times be up to date, They are at least one edition behind at
all times.

Being optimistically cautious in Colorado...

Doug

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:47 AM Richard Nute  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Hi Doug:
>
>
>
> If I remember correctly, the intro to the NEC says that it is a model for
> adoption by various AHJs.
>
>
>
> In Oregon, each edition of NFPA 70 is formally adopted with exceptions and
> additions.  So, most of NFPA 70 is law.  The amendments are freely
> available.  Many other jurisdictions do the same.
>
>
>
> 2017 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC)
> 
> Effective Oct. 1, 2017
> Based on the 2017 NFPA 70, National Electrical Code
> Oregon amendments to the 2017 NEC *Updated Oct. 2020*
> 
>
>
>
> Stay safe!
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Douglas Powell 
> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 7:00 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?
>
>
>
> My Friday Question,
>
>
>
> NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not
> laws."
>
>
>
> I recently saw a clarification stating:
>
> "*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it
> has not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore,
> compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in
> cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident*."
>
>
>
> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit
> organization and not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best
> known published document is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code
> or NEC ®. And indeed, this code has been translated and adopted in other
> countries in places like Latin America
> .
> Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a
> legal requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having
> Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.
>
>
>
> Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone
> wants to point out that in this country any code which is officially
> mandated law must be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed
> offer a "free view" but these are very deficient with regard to usability.
>
>
>
> The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?
>
>
>
> Food for thought...
>
>
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>


-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Joe Randolph]

Yes, apparently, the authority to impose an electrical code rests with the 
individual states (and sometimes individual jurisdictions with a given state).  
I’m not sure why, but there is probably some constitutional reason why this is 
controlled by the individual states rather than the Federal government.

 

I did not mention this in my earlier attempt at providing a “simple answer,” 
but I believe certain states, such as California, have their own electrical 
code and do not simply call out NFPA 70.  And, I think certain cities have 
their own codes.  So, the individual states are not acting in unison.

 

Scott points out another problem with the current situation of having local 
authority over the electrical code.  Namely, that different jurisdictions use 
different editions of NFPA 70 as their local electric code.  Updated editions 
of NFPA 70 are issued every three years.

 

I work a lot with communication equipment that is covered by Chapter 8 of NFPA 
70.  Over last several years some significant changes have been made in Chapter 
8, mostly in terms of revising outdated requirements to better address new 
communications technology.  Significant changes were made in the 2017 edition, 
and again in the 2020 edition.

 

Unfortunately, some jurisdictions are still using older versions, as early as 
the 2008 edition.  Typically, the adoption of a specific edition requires a 
vote of the State Legislature, and they sometimes fail to update their laws 
when a new edition comes out.

 

This makes it challenging to take advantage of the clarifications/improvements 
that have been incorporated into newer editions of NFPA 70.

 

Fortunately, most electrical inspectors are open to considering the latest 
edition of NFPA 70, even if their local law refers to an earlier edition.  
However, they are not obligated to do so.

 

 

Joe Randolph

Telecom Design Consultant

Randolph Telecom, Inc.

781-721-2848 (USA)

  j...@randolph-telecom.com

  http://www.randolph-telecom.com

 

From: Scott Aldous [mailto:scottald...@google.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 11:41 AM
To: Joe Randolph 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

 

I agree with Joe. Since jurisdictions across the US do not adopt the same 
revision of NFPA 70 

 , mandating a single edition at the federal level could be problematic.

 

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:15 AM Joe Randolph mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com> > wrote:

Hi Doug:

 

The short answer is that compliance with NFPA 70 is, in fact, the law in most 
states and localities.  

 

Most states have passed laws that require compliance with NFPA 70.  In these 
states, when the electrical inspector visits a site, the code book used to 
determine compliance with the state’s electrical code is NFPA 70.

 

I think the situation is similar to the ITU standards, which are officially 
called “Recommendations” and do not, by themselves, have the force of law.  
However, the laws in many countries call out certain ITU standards.

 

Similarly, UL standards in the USA are not, by themselves, legally binding.  
However, many UL standards are called out by law by OSHA and in state 
electrical codes (which typically call out NFPA 70).

 

 

Joe Randolph

Telecom Design Consultant

Randolph Telecom, Inc.

781-721-2848   (USA)

  j...@randolph-telecom.com

  http://www.randolph-telecom.com

 

From: Douglas Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com  ] 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 10:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

 

My Friday Question,

 

NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not laws." 

 

I recently saw a clarification stating:

"As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it has not 
been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore, compliance 
is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in cases where lack of 
compliance has resulted in a workplace accident." 

 

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit organization and 
not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best known published document 
is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code or NEC ®. And indeed, this 
code has been translated and adopted in other countries in places like Latin 
America 

 . Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a legal 
requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having 
Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.  

 

Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where 

Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Doug:

 

If I remember correctly, the intro to the NEC says that it is a model for 
adoption by various AHJs.

 

In Oregon, each edition of NFPA 70 is formally adopted with exceptions and 
additions.  So, most of NFPA 70 is law.  The amendments are freely available.  
Many other jurisdictions do the same.  

 

 

 2017 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC)
Effective Oct. 1, 2017
Based on the 2017 NFPA 70, National Electrical Code
  
Oregon amendments to the 2017 NEC Updated Oct. 2020

 

Stay safe!

Rich

 

 

 

From: Douglas Powell  
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

 

My Friday Question,

 

NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not laws." 

 

I recently saw a clarification stating:

"As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it has not 
been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore, compliance 
is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in cases where lack of 
compliance has resulted in a workplace accident." 

 

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit organization and 
not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best known published document 
is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code or NEC ®. And indeed, this 
code has been translated and adopted in other countries in places like Latin 
America 

 . Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a legal 
requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having 
Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.  

 

Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone wants to 
point out that in this country any code which is officially mandated law must 
be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed offer a "free view" but 
these are very deficient with regard to usability. 

 

The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?

 

Food for thought...

 

Doug

 

-- 

 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Douglas Powell]

The referenced document in SEMI S22 R2-3 "*Example of Point-to-point Short
Circuit Current Method*" does not appear to be available on the new Eaton
site. But is still available on the Wayback Machine. The document
is technically out of date so use it with discretion. The specific
paragraph in Semi S22 R2-3.1 says "*The following point-to-point short
circuit current method for conductors and transformers is reprinted from
http://www.bussmann.com/library/docs/EPR_Booklet.pdf
 with permission from
Cooper Bussmann*", which of course contains the dead link.

If you decide to use one of the archived versions, choose wisely,
https://web.archive.org/web/2015*/http://www.bussmann.com/library/docs/EPR_Booklet.pdf

Stay safe and stay frosty,

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 10:36 AM  wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
>
>
> UL 508A Supplement SB has a method for this. Also the www.semi.org
> standard SEMI S22 has a method in one of it’s ‘Related Information’
> sections. The SEMI standard RI section includes a reprint of an SCCR  guide
> from Bussmann. The link S22 provides no longer works (it looks like
> bussmann was acquired by Cooper was acquired by Eaton since then), but it
> looks like Eaton has some useful guidance in a big guide they have for
> electrical protection in general (probably with a generous dose of Eaton
> products) at
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/technical-literature/bus-ele-an-3002-spd.pdf
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -Lauren
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian Kunde 
> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 8:55 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)
>
>
>
> Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.
>
>
>
> Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to
> find a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is
> I need to know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case
> in particular I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven
> industrial device. It draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the
> device, we have three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead
> of that we have a lockout/tagout disconnect device that is only rated 10KA
> SCCR.
>
>
>
> How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?
>
>
>
> Thank you all.
>
>
>
> The Other Brian
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>


-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Websi

Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Pete Perkins]

Lauren & Brian,

 

Be careful with considering a test.  The source must have a SSCurrent equal to 
(or greater than) the largest SCCR component (sounds like the 200kA fuse from 
your description).  This level of available current is not found in your usual 
lab setup.  

 

I have seen disastrous test results when the entire system is properly tested 
even tho it was claimed to be sufficient because of an earlier test at a lower 
SSCR setup.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: lauren.cr...@us.tel.com  
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 9:36 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

 

Hi Brian, 

 

UL 508A Supplement SB has a method for this. Also the www.semi.org 
  standard SEMI S22 has a method in one of it’s ‘Related 
Information’ sections. The SEMI standard RI section includes a reprint of an 
SCCR  guide from Bussmann. The link S22 provides no longer works (it looks like 
bussmann was acquired by Cooper was acquired by Eaton since then), but it looks 
like Eaton has some useful guidance in a big guide they have for electrical 
protection in general (probably with a generous dose of Eaton products) at 
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/technical-literature/bus-ele-an-3002-spd.pdf

 

Best Regards, 

-Lauren

 

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

 

Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.

 

Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to find 
a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is I need to 
know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case in particular 
I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven industrial device. It 
draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the device, we have three "CC" type 
fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead of that we have a lockout/tagout 
disconnect device that is only rated 10KA SCCR.  

 

How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?

 

Thank you all.  

 

The Other Brian

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

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fo

Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[lauren . crane]

Hi Brian,

UL 508A Supplement SB has a method for this. Also the 
www.semi.org standard SEMI S22 has a method in one of it’s 
‘Related Information’ sections. The SEMI standard RI section includes a reprint 
of an SCCR  guide from Bussmann. The link S22 provides no longer works (it 
looks like bussmann was acquired by Cooper was acquired by Eaton since then), 
but it looks like Eaton has some useful guidance in a big guide they have for 
electrical protection in general (probably with a generous dose of Eaton 
products) at 
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/technical-literature/bus-ele-an-3002-spd.pdf

Best Regards,
-Lauren

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.

Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to find 
a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is I need to 
know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case in particular 
I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven industrial device. It 
draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the device, we have three "CC" type 
fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead of that we have a lockout/tagout 
disconnect device that is only rated 10KA SCCR.

How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?

Thank you all.

The Other Brian
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Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Scott Aldous]

The video gives a good overview, and refers to Supplement SB from UL 508A,
which is a good resource. However, these are applicable to industrial
control panels. It isn't clear that Brian's equipment would fall into that
category. Assuming just industrial control equipment, would a short circuit
test have to be performed to validate the rating?



On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:38 AM Douglas Nix <
0bb8ff993b10-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

> I did a little hunting for you and found this video that explains the
> process pretty well:
>
> https://youtu.be/v7W0JAp-XBQ
>
> --
> Doug Nix
> d...@mac.com
> +1 (519) 729-5704 <(519)%20729-5704>
>
> "He who closes his ears to the views of others shows little confidence in
> the integrity of his own views." -- W. Congreve
>
> On 30-Oct-20, at 09:54, Brian Kunde  wrote:
>
> Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.
>
> Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to
> find a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is
> I need to know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case
> in particular I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven
> industrial device. It draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the
> device, we have three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead
> of that we have a lockout/tagout disconnect device that is only rated 10KA
> SCCR.
>
> How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?
>
> Thank you all.
>
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
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>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
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> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
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>
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>


-- 
Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Manager | scottald...@google.com |
 650-253-1994

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Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Scott Aldous]

I agree with Joe. Since jurisdictions across the US do not adopt the same
revision of NFPA 70
,
mandating a single edition at the federal level could be problematic.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:15 AM Joe Randolph 
wrote:

> Hi Doug:
>
>
>
> The short answer is that compliance with NFPA 70 is, in fact, the law in
> most states and localities.
>
>
>
> Most states have passed laws that require compliance with NFPA 70.  In
> these states, when the electrical inspector visits a site, the code book
> used to determine compliance with the state’s electrical code is NFPA 70.
>
>
>
> I think the situation is similar to the ITU standards, which are
> officially called “Recommendations” and do not, by themselves, have the
> force of law.  However, the laws in many countries call out certain ITU
> standards.
>
>
>
> Similarly, UL standards in the USA are not, by themselves, legally
> binding.  However, many UL standards are called out by law by OSHA and in
> state electrical codes (which typically call out NFPA 70).
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Randolph
>
> Telecom Design Consultant
>
> Randolph Telecom, Inc.
>
> 781-721-2848 <(781)%20721-2848> (USA)
>
> j...@randolph-telecom.com
>
> http://www.randolph-telecom.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Douglas Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 10:00 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?
>
>
>
> My Friday Question,
>
>
>
> NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not
> laws."
>
>
>
> I recently saw a clarification stating:
>
> "*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it
> has not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore,
> compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in
> cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident*."
>
>
>
> The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit
> organization and not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best
> known published document is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code
> or NEC ®. And indeed, this code has been translated and adopted in other
> countries in places like Latin America
> .
> Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a
> legal requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having
> Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.
>
>
>
> Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone
> wants to point out that in this country any code which is officially
> mandated law must be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed
> offer a "free view" but these are very deficient with regard to usability.
>
>
>
> The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?
>
>
>
> Food for thought...
>
>
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
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>
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> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
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> David Heald 
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-- 
Scot

Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Douglas Nix]

I did a little hunting for you and found this video that explains the process 
pretty well:

https://youtu.be/v7W0JAp-XBQ

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com
+1 (519) 729-5704

"He who closes his ears to the views of others shows little confidence in the 
integrity of his own views." -- W. Congreve

> On 30-Oct-20, at 09:54, Brian Kunde  wrote:
> 
> Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.
> 
> Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to 
> find a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is I 
> need to know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case in 
> particular I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven industrial 
> device. It draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the device, we have 
> three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead of that we have a 
> lockout/tagout disconnect device that is only rated 10KA SCCR.  
> 
> How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?
> 
> Thank you all.  
> 
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
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> unsubscribe) 
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> 
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> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
> 


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Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Douglas Nix]

Hi Brian,

I agree with Doug Powell, but short of doing a complete coordination study, one 
thing in your message jumped out at me:

> "...a 3 phase motor-driven industrial device. It draws less than 8 amps at 
> 230V. Internal to the device, we have three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 
> 200KA.  However, ahead of that we have a lockout/tagout disconnect device 
> that is only rated 10KA SCCR.”

The 10 kA disconnect will limit your SCCR to 10 kA, regardless of the CC fuses 
downstream. You installation instructions need to tell the installer that your 
system is limited to 10 kA so that they can select the correct O/C protection 
at the source to protect your product.

If you want to take advantage of the current limitation of those CC fuses, you 
need a 200 kA rated fused disconnect that will accept the CC fuses. 

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com
+1 (519) 729-5704

"What sets a canoeing expedition apart is that it purifies you more rapidly and 
inescapably than any other.

● Travel a thousand miles by train and you are a brute;
● Pedal five hundred miles on a bicycle and you remain basically bourgeois;
● Paddle a hundred in a canoe and you are already a child of nature."

Pierre Elliot Trudeau

> On 30-Oct-20, at 09:54, Brian Kunde  wrote:
> 
> Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.
> 
> Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to 
> find a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is I 
> need to know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case in 
> particular I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven industrial 
> device. It draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the device, we have 
> three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead of that we have a 
> lockout/tagout disconnect device that is only rated 10KA SCCR.  
> 
> How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?
> 
> Thank you all.  
> 
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
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> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
> 


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Re: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Joe Randolph]

Hi Doug:

 

The short answer is that compliance with NFPA 70 is, in fact, the law in most 
states and localities.  

 

Most states have passed laws that require compliance with NFPA 70.  In these 
states, when the electrical inspector visits a site, the code book used to 
determine compliance with the state’s electrical code is NFPA 70.

 

I think the situation is similar to the ITU standards, which are officially 
called “Recommendations” and do not, by themselves, have the force of law.  
However, the laws in many countries call out certain ITU standards.

 

Similarly, UL standards in the USA are not, by themselves, legally binding.  
However, many UL standards are called out by law by OSHA and in state 
electrical codes (which typically call out NFPA 70).

 

 

Joe Randolph

Telecom Design Consultant

Randolph Telecom, Inc.

781-721-2848 (USA)

  j...@randolph-telecom.com

  http://www.randolph-telecom.com

 

From: Douglas Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 10:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

 

My Friday Question,

 

NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not laws." 

 

I recently saw a clarification stating:

"As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it has not 
been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore, compliance 
is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in cases where lack of 
compliance has resulted in a workplace accident." 

 

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit organization and 
not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best known published document 
is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code or NEC ®. And indeed, this 
code has been translated and adopted in other countries in places like Latin 
America 

 . Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a legal 
requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having 
Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.  

 

Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone wants to 
point out that in this country any code which is officially mandated law must 
be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed offer a "free view" but 
these are very deficient with regard to usability. 

 

The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?

 

Food for thought...

 

Doug

 

-- 

 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-


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Re: [PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Douglas Powell]

Brian,

The best resource I know is to do an overcurrent protection and
coordination study, the same as you might do in the preliminary steps in an
arc flash study.  Its not dependent on the load as much as the upstream
wiring and OCP devices. Unfortunately, you must start at the top, the
utility transformer and work your way down using the concept of available
SSC in a bolted fault. Each device provides a certain level of protection,
and until it is fully cleared, a certain amount of let thru current to the
load. Transformers also provide some impedance to limit peak current. There
is also an allowance for wire gauge and length.

Look into IEEE 1584.

Best, Doug



On Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:54 AM Brian Kunde  wrote:

> Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.
>
> Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to
> find a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is
> I need to know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case
> in particular I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven
> industrial device. It draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the
> device, we have three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead
> of that we have a lockout/tagout disconnect device that is only rated 10KA
> SCCR.
>
> How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?
>
> Thank you all.
>
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
>
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> emc-p...@ieee.org>
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[PSES] NFPA Codes, law or not?

[Douglas Powell]

My Friday Question,

NFPA Codes, law or not? Officially the answer is, "No, these are not laws."

I recently saw a clarification stating:

"*As a national consensus safety standard, NFPA 70 is not a law and it has
not been incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore,
compliance is not deemed mandatory. Even so, OSHA has cited NFPA 70 in
cases where lack of compliance has resulted in a workplace accident*."


The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is a nonprofit organization
and not a government entity. In the USA, possibly the best known published
document is the NFPA 70 which is the National Electric Code or NEC ®. And
indeed, this code has been translated and adopted in other countries in
places like Latin America
.
Nevertheless, in my view, the whole system is bordering on becoming a
legal requirement, especially at the local level where Authorities Having
Jurisdiction (AHJs) adopt these into their local city and county codes.

Occasionally a discussion is raised on electrical forums where someone
wants to point out that in this country any code which is officially
mandated law must be freely available for public use. NFPA does indeed
offer a "free view" but these are very deficient with regard to usability.

The question then becomes, "Should these codes be law?

Food for thought...

Doug

-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

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[PSES] Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR)

[Brian Kunde]

Greetings to all. I hope this finds you well.

Once again the subject of SCCR has come up.  I have struggled for years to
find a document or someone who can explain this to me.  The bottom line is
I need to know how I would determine the SCCR for my product.  In one case
in particular I am currently working on, it is a 3 phase motor-driven
industrial device. It draws less than 8 amps at 230V. Internal to the
device, we have three "CC" type fuses with a SCCR of 200KA.  However, ahead
of that we have a lockout/tagout disconnect device that is only rated 10KA
SCCR.

How exactly can I determine the SCCR of my device?

Thank you all.

The Other Brian

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: