[PSES] EN 50178 and EN 62477-1

[Aldous, Scott]

Esteemed List Members,

The CENELEC site indicates that EN 62477-1 was published in 2013 and intended 
to supersede EN 50178:1997:

http://www.cenelec.eu/dyn/www/f?p=104:110:4766101042199869FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_PROJECT,FSP_LANG_ID:863,22817,25

However the list of harmonized standards under the LVD still references EN 
50178:1997 and not EN 62477-1. Does anyone know why?

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] New EMC Directive publication

[Aldous, Scott]

Does anyone want to give the Cliffs Notes version of what's new in the 
Directives?

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 2:49 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New EMC Directive publication

I believe each recast directive (several others are listed at 
http://old.eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:L:2014:096:SOM:EN:HTML) has a 
phrase similar to the following which allows one to assume the standards 
harmonized to the old directive are also harmonized to the new. 

"References to the repealed Directive shall be construed as references to this 
Directive and shall be read in accordance with the correlation table in Annex 
VI."

Regards,
Lauren Crane
KLA-Tencor
-Original Message-
From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 3:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New EMC Directive publication

Brian

There aren't any published Harmonised Standards for these Directives yet.

It is a reasonable assumption that existing lists of HS for the eight  
Directives that have all been updated will be copied across to the "NLF 
version", but we'll have to wait to be sure.

So far they are "only" directives - you can't actually declare compliance 
against a new Directive until it has been transposed into the national law of 
one member state.

When will that be?

Well.all we can say now is sometime before 19th April 2016 :)

Charlie

-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: 01 April 2014 20:35
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New EMC Directive publication

Alas, the Galactic Emperor has failed his loyal subject. Not able to find links 
to lists of harmonized standards for these directives. And the search engine 
for the Eur-Lex site points to dead pages.

Links?

Thanks,
Brian

-Original Message-
From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New EMC Directive publication

There is also a new Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU. 

Sincerely, 

Dieter Paasche


-Original Message-
From: Brian Jones [mailto:e...@brianjones.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 2:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] New EMC Directive publication

Everyone

The new EMC Directive 2014/30/EU was published in the Official Journal of the 
European Union on 29 March.  It can be downloaded in the various official 
languages of the EU from here
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.096.01
.0079.01.ENG (beware word wrap - if necessary, copy and paste the whole URL).

Member States have until 19 April 2016 to publish their laws implementing the 
directive.  These new laws apply from 20 April 2016.

Best wishes

Brian Jones
EMC Consultant

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-
--

Re: [PSES] use of AC contactor in PV application in US/CAN

[Aldous, Scott]

Clause 13.1 from UL 1741 and 690.17 from the 2011 NEC both require that 
disconnects consist of a manually operated switch or circuit breaker (this part 
of 2014 NEC has been modified). It may be a bit of a judgment call as to 
whether a contactor can meet the intent of these requirements. As least some 
folks have judged that it can on the PV side, since there are combiner boxes on 
the market now that use a contactor instead of a traditional disconnect switch 
or circuit breaker. Here is one example with a photo showing the Gigavac 
contactor inside with a manually operated switch in the coil circuit:

http://www.solarbos.com/products/combiner-boxes/arc-fault-combiner-boxes

This combiner box was listed to UL 1741 by ETL. 

It is important not to touch a circuit isolated this way without first 
verifying with a meter that it is safe.

This type of contactor is typically certified to UL 508 for the USA market 
though this should be moving to the UL 60947 standards going forward. 

I am not aware of any application that currently uses this sort of arrangement 
on the AC side. There are additional requirements for the AC side disconnect 
since this is the PV system disconnect from the grid, often as part of 
interconnect requirements imposed by utilities. The Canadian code, 84-024, 
requires a visible blade arrangement for verification of disconnection if 
required by the supply authority. Utilities often require the visible blade.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy

-Original Message-
From: Boštjan Glavič [mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si] 
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] use of AC contactor in PV application in US/CAN

Dear Experts,

Is anyone familiar if it is allowed to use a contactor instead of circuit 
breaker in PV application to disconnect inverter from the grid?

NEC in Article 690 does not specify it precisely.

What standard needs to comply this contactor?

Best regards,

Boštjan Glavič
Safety and Electromagnetics
Laboratory of Electronic Engineering
Head of Laboratory
SIQ, Tržaška cesta 2
SI-1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia
T: + 386 (0)1 47 78 265
F: + 386 (0)1 47 78 444
E-Mail: bostjan.gla...@siq.si

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] BS non-rewirable plugs

[Aldous, Scott]

Unless the wall receptacle was wired backwards. ;)

(One would hope this happens significantly less often in a medical facility 
than in a residence…)

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Heiland, Leo J
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 3:36 PM
To: msherma...@comcast.net; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] BS non-rewirable plugs

It also allows for checking of phase and neutral being wired correctly (not 
reversed).

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
msherma...@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] BS non-rewirable plugs


Ground/earth continuity is extremely important for electrical medical 
equipment, at least in part because sedated or comatose patients can lack a 
"let-go" reflex. Clear plugs presumably allow users to periodically visually 
check the robustness of the conductor/pin connection.



Mike Sherman

Product Safety and Compliance Engineer

Graco Inc.



From: "John Woodgate" mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:15:58 AM
Subject: Re: [PSES] BS non-rewirable plugs

In message
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB0265E05F@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>,
dated Thu, 25 Jul 2013, "Kunde, Brian" 
mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>> writes:

>That makes sense. Is this why molded plugs for Medical Devices are made
>from clear material?  So it can be visually inspected?

I think so, but don't count on it. When moulded plugs were first
introduced there was a serious reliability problem, with melting, sparks
and smoke. Moulding techniques had to be considerably refined. I think a
two-step process is used, with a visual inspection between the steps.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See 
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list adminis

Re: [PSES] safety 60950 and surge suppression circuits

[Aldous, Scott]

Throwing in my 2 cents:

Hipot test values are based on expected transients. The concern with the 
transient overvoltages is that they could punch through insulation needed for 
safety and subsequently hazardous voltages can be allowed to reach areas where 
they should not. The function of an SPD is to limit the level of transient 
overvoltages that propagate through the equipment. If the SPD functions 
correctly, the insulation should not be stressed by the transients since the 
SPD shunts the surge current to ground. In other words, the function of the SPD 
makes it different from the other insulation barriers. While the other barriers 
must withstand the transient overvoltages, the SPD functions to limit them. 
Because of the difference in function, it is appropriate to test them 
differently, or to treat them differently during test.

As Rich stated, an SPD may not be reliable in its function to limit the 
transient overvoltages (for example SPDs are often themselves protected by 
fusing which then leaves the SPD function inoperable if the fuse opens), so it 
is appropriate to test the rest of the insulation as if the SPD were not 
present.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Joe Randolph
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:41 PM
To: ri...@ieee.org
Cc: Bill Owsley; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: safety 60950 and surge suppression circuits

Hi Rich:

The apparent contradiction that I was trying to describe can be summarized as 
follows:

a) The safety insulation barrier must withstand a hipot test of, say, 1500 VRMS
b) It is permissible to bridge this safety insulation barrier with a SPD that 
breaks down at, say, 300 VRMS

In other words, in normal use, the safety insulation barrier can be bypassed by 
a SPD.  For the seemingly artificial circumstances of the hipot test, the SPD 
can be removed in order to demonstrate compliance with the 1500 VRMS 
requirement.  The 1500 VRMS safety isolation barrier would appear to be 
relatively useless if, in normal use, it is bridged by a 300 VRMS SPD.

In the above example, I avoided specific reference to particular clauses in 
60950-1, because I wanted to illustrate the basic scenario that seems to recur 
in a variety of places, but with differing details.  In 60950-1, this scenario 
seems to appear in clauses 5.2.2, 6.1.2, and 6.2.  It also appears in TIA-968 
for equipment connected to the telecom network.


Joe Randolph
Telecom Design Consultant
Randolph Telecom, Inc.
781-721-2848 (USA)
j...@randolph-telecom.com
http://www.randolph-telecom.com







Hi Joe:


Very quickly...

SPDs are not considered reliable components or assemblies.
The safety standards anticipate a failure -- anywhere from
open-circuit to short-circuit.

In the event of an open-circuit, there is no indication of
such a failure.  And, of course, all transients then pass
through the open SPD.

Consequently, the equipment safety insulations will be
called upon to withstand the expected transient overvoltages.
So, the standards require performing the voltage withstand
test without the SPD in place.


Best regards,
Rich






On 5/20/2013 1:40 PM, Joe Randolph wrote:

Hi Rich:

I'm hoping that you can provide one of your straightforward "Rich Nute 
Explanations" for the apparent contradiction behind the rationale that allows a 
surge protection component to be placed across a required safety isolation 
barrier, and then removed for the purpose of performing the hipot test.

I have been involved with safety compliance for over 30 years, and this concept 
is one that has never made complete sense to me.  On one level, I can just bump 
along and limit my attention to what the safety standard actually says, but I 
would like to understand what the thinking is behind that.

This allowance (removing surge protection components for the hipot test) 
appears in a variety of standards and clauses within those standards, such as 
EN 60950-1, clauses 5.2.2, 6.1.2, and 6.2.2.

If you could help clarify the thinking behind this allowance, I would greatly 
appreciate it.


Thanks,

Joe Randolph
Telecom Design Consultant
Randolph Telecom, Inc.
781-721-2848 (USA)
j...@randolph-telecom.com
http://www.randolph-telecom.com 







Hi Bill:


SPDs, regardless of configuration, are notorious for being
prone to failure, either short-circuit or open-circuit or
any value of resistance between those two extremes.  (One
cannot predict the energy the SPD will be required to
dissipate.)

From a safety point of view, all such failures must be
accounted for such that the safety of the equipment is not
comp

Re: [PSES] 3D passive glasses

[Aldous, Scott]

If there is any product that children should not be playing with, it will be 
appealing...

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy



-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tyra, John
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:58 AM
To: John Woodgate; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: 3D passive glasses

Found this OSM decision while I was searching for other info.  I guess the 
question becomes is it considered a CHILD APPEALING product?


Standard:  
EN 60065:1998
EN 60065:2002   Sub clause: 
-   Sheet No.: 
02/1

Page 1 of 1
Subject: 
Child appealing Multimedia products Key words:
-
Meeting:
OSM/EE - 2002
Item No. 9.1

Question:  
Description of situation:
A manufacturer of LCD TVs wants to produce LCD TVs which must be designated as 
CHILD APPEALING product.
The LCD TVs will be supplied by an external power supply or a battery pack, 
internal higher voltages are generated.
These types of products are excluded from the scope of the Toy Directive.
The manufacturer wants the products to be certified to EN 60065

Is it acceptable to evaluate these products to EN 60065 only?


Decision:
Since the products are clearly Child Appealing we must bear in mind the normal 
behaviour of children.  Abusing a product is likely to occur; for example, 
dropping it on the floor, using it in a way that is not intended.
Beside the EN 60065 we also will cover applicable additional tests (in case 
they are more severe than EN 60065 or not covered by EN 60065) according the 
following standards:
EN 71 (toy directive)
EN 50088 (safety of electric toys)
The General Product Safety Directive 92/59EEC and the Liability Directive for 
defective products 85/374/EEC have also to be taken into account.
An annex to the test report shall show these additional assessments. 

Explanatory notes: 
A child-appealing-product is a product which is constructed to represent a 
model, person or animal such that due to the design and materials used it could 
be treated by a child as a toy.



-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: 3D passive glasses

In message , dated Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Scott 
Xe  writes:

> Any comments on the product classification?  If not a toy, what is the 
>product type should be.

I was asked about this more than a year ago, by one of the leading 
manufacturers. I said that it was a very grey area and they should probably 
take legal rather than technical advice. I guess that CE marking under the 
'toys Directive' is the result.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk They took me to a specialist 
burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Indust

Re: [PSES] laptop -> house fire

[Aldous, Scott]

I don't believe it. Yes, a notebook computer will get hot with the vents 
blocked. Will it generate enough heat to ignite clothing it is resting on? I 
highly doubt it. According to this website:

http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html

Cotton ignites at 250 degrees C (for some reason it's in the table for 
plastics). Even hay doesn't ignite until it reaches 172 degrees C, according to 
the same site. Notebook computers will not get that hot even with all vents 
blocked. Thanks to the magic of Google, I happened to find a CB report online 
for a notebook computer. I won't link to it just in case it's not supposed to 
be public, but it got several blocked vent tests (CB report issued by UL). It 
ran for several hours for each test in ambients between 28 C and 29 C. The 
hottest temperature recorded inside the computer, according to the report, was 
81 C. Cheesecloth was not charred or ignited for any of the tests. It was a 
relatively low power computer (the AC adapters it can use are rated 65W out), 
but there is a long way to go from 81 C to 250 C.

There had to have been some additional type of fault there, as has been 
suggested by John and Ted.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of IBM Ken
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:13 PM
To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail)
Subject: Re: laptop -> house fire

"P.E.I. deputy fire marshal Robert Arsenault demonstrates how vents on a laptop 
computer can be blocked when it is sitting on a pile of clothes. (CBC)"
Why did he pick that brand of laptop to demonstrate with?  XD

Does anyone have more information on this incident?

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Brian Oconnell 
mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com>> wrote:
Blocked vent test anyone? Forseeable misuse? I like my computers well done.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2013/03/06/pei-laptop-house-fire-computer-584.html>>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List

Re: [PSES] Immunity and emissions below 150 kHz and lithium batteries

[Aldous, Scott]

Good information, Ted. There are also aftermarket batteries themselves, which 
the major manufacturers continually tell their customers not to use, for good 
reasons. Quality control at cell manufacturing facilities is very, very 
important.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Manager/Engineering Lab Manager
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 8:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Immunity and emissions below 150 kHz and lithium batteries

The applicable standards for lithium batteries depend on the application. I'm 
not that familiar with requirements for lithium batteries for aircraft systems, 
but that seems to be a new area. Apparently, the FAA wasn't aware enough of the 
issues when certifying the battery system for the 787 Dreamliner.

For commercial products, you have IEEE 1625, IEEE 1725, UL 1642, UL 2054, IEC 
62133 and UN 38.3 which all require multiple redundant protective circuits. The 
protective circuit module (PCM) needs to use fuses, thermistors and other basic 
measures to provide the necessary protection. The purpose of the PCM is to 
protect the cells from faults in the charging circuit as well as from other 
potential hazards, such as short circuits, overloads and charging at high 
ambient temperatures. I can't state with certainty that immunity isn't an 
issue, but it isn't the likely issue. When testing PCMs, the assumption is that 
the charging circuit is one of the more likely places for faults to occur and 
the charging circuit is assumed to be unreliable. The effort is placed on 
designing the PCM to protect against such faults, and designing the cells to be 
robust enough to survive the faults.

The problems with lithium cells are based on the efforts to get the maximum 
energy density. The insulators and separators within the cells are made as thin 
as possible. Manufacturing defects and contaminants can result in a puncture in 
a separator leading to an internal short circuit. This leads to a thermal event 
which can degrade other separators until they fail, cascading into a runaway 
event. If you look through the NTSB's preliminary reports, you will see that 
they are looking at such a fault as a likely cause of the event at Boston's 
Logan airport.
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/2013/boeing_787/docket_documents.html

Most designers of systems with lithium cells have no control over the power 
supply. The vast majority of devices with lithium cells are laptop computers, 
MP3 players, cell phone and such. The manufacturer may provide a power supply, 
but the manufacturer is also well aware that the customer may use an 
aftermarket supply. For USB charged devices, you have no idea what is providing 
the 5 VDC power. If low frequency noise from the switch-mode supply was an 
issue, I expect we would have seen more events during charging.

Regards,
Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.



From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 5:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Immunity and emissions below 150 kHz and lithium batteries

Another thing to remember is that the equipment in an aircraft isn't just 
randomly dumped into a compartment. Although 461 & 160 offer you a way to 
reasonably guarantee compatibility, it is with the assumption of good aircraft 
engineering practices. If you want to be able to mount the battery right on top 
of the charger, it is incumbent on YOU to verify that this is electronically, 
physically, thermally, chemically and magnetically safe.

As to whether we should test anything for conducted susceptibility, well, both 
461 and 160 already do that; Methods CS101 and CS114 are examples. And 9 kHz is 
just another arbitrary point, Method RE101 has you measuring magnetic field 
emissions starting at 30 Hz.

To get a bit philosophical, the purpose of 461 and 160 was never to evaluate a 
device's compliance with those standards, but to ensure compatibility in 
real-life applications. So, if you are confronted with a gadget that just might 
do weird and nasty things when exposed to something not quite covered in the 
standard test suite, then it's your job to create an extension or customization 
of the testing program that will document (and regulate, mitigate or eliminate) 
those conditions.

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA  USA

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 7:43 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Immunity and emissio

Re: [PSES] UL 1699B where art thou

[Aldous, Scott]

UL 1699B, the outline of investigation, is indeed available for general 
purchase. I bought a copy. My company is not a UL client nor are we on the STP. 
Maybe I misunderstood you.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy



-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 5:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: UL 1699B where art thou

1669B is not a standard and has not been released - it was issued as an
outline on 29Apr2011 is not available for general purchase, and a bulletin
was issued May2011. Both are available for free to UL clients having an
Standards Certification Customer Library account or to STP members.

this outline just sits there,
 the computer screen that glares.
 it mocks me,
 it taunts me.
my eyes squint into the far-away,
 pixels for beads of darkness, 
 that is this outline. 
and yet, I wait. 
I will wait for the standard.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Aldous, Scott [mailto:scott.ald...@aei.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:21 PM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: UL 1699B where art thou

UL1699B is published and available for purchase. You can search for it on
www.comm-2000.com. Make sure you select "UL Outlines" when you search on it.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Oconnell
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: UL 1699B where art thou

Anyone on the 1699 STP?

Am attempting to determine status of UL1699B. Silence since approx May 2011,
and next NEC will probably include both serial and parallel arc detect in
article 690.

And as typical, the assigned engineer from a well-known 'non-profit'
organization will not answer any questions.

thanks,
Brian

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] UL 1699B where art thou

[Aldous, Scott]

UL1699B is published and available for purchase. You can search for it on 
www.comm-2000.com. Make sure you select "UL Outlines" when you search on it.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy



-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: UL 1699B where art thou

Anyone on the 1699 STP?

Am attempting to determine status of UL1699B. Silence since approx May 2011,
and next NEC will probably include both serial and parallel arc detect in
article 690.

And as typical, the assigned engineer from a well-known 'non-profit'
organization will not answer any questions.

thanks,
Brian

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Product safety requirements

[Aldous, Scott]

You would need to make sure that the output of the power supply is a Limited 
Power Source in order to deal with fire hazards. The nameplate output ratings 
are necessary but insufficient information to determine if a fire hazard may be 
present. Also, it is possible that your regulators (maybe just the boost) could 
produce voltages internally that would be considered a shock hazard, which 
would require evaluation of the output circuits as SELV. There are a wide 
variety of DC/DC converters commercially available that have SELV inputs and 
SELV outputs which nonetheless still have 3rd party safety certifications. You 
should be able to find a certified one OTS (or multiple converters) that will 
work for you if you don't want to deal with the certification piece yourself. 
Maybe that defeats the purpose of what you are trying to do since you could 
just as easily find OTS certified AC/DC power supplies.

Technical considerations aside, you could always run into trouble with any 
given local authority or customs official wanting to see certification on your 
mixer, not just on the power supply that connects to it or that it ships with.

Also, you should be aware that most notebook power supplies nowadays have more 
than just the power output pins - they have feedback signals that are intended 
to keep the supplies in a low power consumption mode when the computer is in 
the off state in order to comply with various efficiency regulations. If you 
don't provide the right signal, you won't get power out of them.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mcburney, Ian
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:24 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Product safety requirements

Dear Colleagues

We are a manufacturer of audio mixing consoles with a range that varies from A4 
size up to large 2m long 2 man lift consoles.
Most have internal ac/dc power supplies.
We are researching changing the way we power are future products to rationalise 
the psu range as worldwide approval costs increase.
One of the options is to purchase 60-80W PC laptop power supplies and power the 
smaller mixers from the DC output of the external laptop supply.
The DC output voltage from a laptop PSU is typically 19V. However; most mixers 
require typically +/-15V, +10V & +48V internal voltage rails.
We propose to buck regulate the +/-15V and +10V rails & boost the +48V rail 
from the 19V DC input.
If the total power consumption of the mixer was no more than 80W and the +48V 
was current limited to no more than 1 Amp, would the mixer require approval 
testing for north America or any other country as the input voltage would only 
be 19V DC.
Obviously the external ac to dc laptop power supply would have all the 
necessary approvals; probably to IEC60950 and be class 1 construction.

Your opinions would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance;

Ian McBurney
Design Engineer

Allen & Heath Ltd
Kernick Industrial Estate
Penryn, Cornwall
TR10 9LU
United Kingdom

+44 (0)1326 370121

ian.mcbur...@dmh-global.com
www.allen-heath.com
A DMH Pro Company.

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://

Re: [PSES] cable designation question

[Aldous, Scott]

I did find a reference to this, though not from an "official" source:

http://www.muellergroup.net/faq.html#10

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy



-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Aldous, Scott
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:33 AM
To: Peter Tarver; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE:  cable designation question

Hi Peter,

Regarding the voltage ratings, according to a handwritten note I made on a 
printout from Oflex on my cube wall, the first number refers to the conductor 
to ground voltage rating and the second number refers to the conductor to 
conductor voltage rating for multiconductor cable. I don't remember where I got 
this from, but it seems to make sense since there are 2 layers of insulation 
between conductors.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:26 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject:  cable designation question

Hello from overcast Northern California.

I recently purchased a copy of HD 361 to decode  cable designations.

An example is:

H05GG-F

H = harmonized cable
05 = 300/500 V
G = ethylene vinyl acetate conductor insulation
G = ethylene vinyl acetate jacket
F = flexible conductors (Class 5)

My interpretation of the two G characters is based on reading catalogs
that indicate an inside to outside approach to designating the cable
materials.

Does the same inside to outside approach also apply to the voltage rating,
as I expect that it does?

300 V insulation on the individual conductors and 500 V on the jacket?


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver


This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended 
recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. 
If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email 
and destroy all copies of the original message. 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and se

Re: [PSES] cable designation question

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Peter,

Regarding the voltage ratings, according to a handwritten note I made on a 
printout from Oflex on my cube wall, the first number refers to the conductor 
to ground voltage rating and the second number refers to the conductor to 
conductor voltage rating for multiconductor cable. I don't remember where I got 
this from, but it seems to make sense since there are 2 layers of insulation 
between conductors.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:26 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject:  cable designation question

Hello from overcast Northern California.

I recently purchased a copy of HD 361 to decode  cable designations.

An example is:

H05GG-F

H = harmonized cable
05 = 300/500 V
G = ethylene vinyl acetate conductor insulation
G = ethylene vinyl acetate jacket
F = flexible conductors (Class 5)

My interpretation of the two G characters is based on reading catalogs
that indicate an inside to outside approach to designating the cable
materials.

Does the same inside to outside approach also apply to the voltage rating,
as I expect that it does?

300 V insulation on the individual conductors and 500 V on the jacket?


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver


This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended 
recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. 
If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email 
and destroy all copies of the original message. 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] IEC 61010-1:2010 section 5.4.4

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Doug,

60950-1 generally assumes use in an office environment. I don't believe the 
standard covers requirements for exposure to liquids where a hazard could 
result. If an OTS computer is used in a lab system where exposure to liquids 
may occur, the certification of the computer won't cover this so it needs to be 
addressed in the overall system evaluation.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Doug Powell
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:38 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: IEC 61010-1:2010 section 5.4.4

I'm curious,

Why is this paragraph added near the end of the section?

"If equipment conforming to IEC 60950 is used with equipment conforming to this 
standard, and if there is a HAZARD due to moisture or liquids, the instructions 
for use shall specify any additional precautions necessary."

Seems like there must be a story behind this that needs to be told.

--
Thanks, -doug

Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Insulative barriers deposited on metal surfaces

[Aldous, Scott]

I agree with Joe's comments as well. It is typically very difficult if not 
impossible to demonstrate the 2 items that Joe mentions below, the only 
exception being if you can find a material that has a third party (UL) 
certification that covers the application process as well. Personally, I've 
never found any such certification. I've run into a desire to use electrical 
grade paint/powder coat for insulation on bus bars multiple times and have yet 
to find a good way to make it work such that I can rely on it for compliance to 
safety standards. Maybe someone else on this forum will have some ideas.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of IBM Ken
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:32 AM
To: Joe Randolph
Cc: Brian Ceresney; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Insulative barriers deposited on metal surfaces

I echo everything Joe says.  In a recent design we wanted to maintain basic 
insulation to the inside of a metal chassis.  I investigated suppliers who can 
do conformal coating, etc but in the end it was cheaper/faster to put a 
die-cut, folded sheet of plastic in the box.
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Joe Randolph 
mailto:j...@randolph-telecom.com>> wrote:
Hi Brian:

I work mostly with UL 60950, so I can only offer a few general comments about 
the use of solid insulation to reduce clearance distances.

I have seen several cases where a manufacturer wanted to use a coating of some 
sort to provide a layer of solid insulation.  In UL 60950, the minimum 
thickness of solid insulation can be as small as 0.4 mm (even less if multiple 
layers are used), so it seems tempting to propose using an insulating coating 
of some sort.  However, such proposals typically have trouble with one or both 
of the following limitations:

1) Showing that the required minimum thickness is maintained everywhere, even 
on corners and sharp edges.
2) Showing that the proposed material will properly adhere to the surface and 
not crack or flake off.

As an alternative approach, you might consider making an insulating cover that 
sits between the high voltage circuits and the cast aluminum enclosure.  The 
cover would not have to be in contact with either the high voltage circuits or 
the aluminum enclosure.  The only requirement is that it must be interposed 
into what would otherwise be a troublesome clearance distance.  The cover would 
also have to provide the required minimum creepage distance for paths around 
the solid insulation, but that is usually not hard to accomplish.


Joe Randolph
Telecom Design Consultant
Randolph Telecom, Inc.
781-721-2848 (USA)
j...@randolph-telecom.com
http://www.randolph-telecom.com







The standards we are typically working with are UL1564, CSA 107.2, and UL2202, 
however many of the older North American standards have comparatively large 
distances between live parts and enclosure.
These locations are specifically not allowed the easements found in UL840, and 
instead, the distances must be met, or barriers may be used.
Regards,
Brian C.


From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:50 PM
To: Brian Ceresney
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Insulative barriers deposited on metal surfaces

It might be helpful for the discussion to know the Standard that applies to the 
component you are certifying.

-Ken




On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Brian Ceresney 
mailto:bceres...@delta-q.com>> wrote:
Hello Compliance Experts,
I'm interested in the use of a high temperature insulator, possibly a ceramic, 
which would be deposited inside a cast aluminum electrical enclosure.
The aim would be to be able to have the product pass safety approvals using 
this layer as a barrier against electric shock. This layer would help to reduce 
the large distances required from live parts to  conductive enclosure, 
especially in North America.
I'm aware of a variety of processes which can provide electrical isolation, but 
I haven't seen them used in  products having safety approvals. The people who 
own these processes don't seem to be interested in using them as insulation in 
products.
Has anyone seen this type of approach used successfully, or had success in a 
similar situation? Any pros or cons you can pass along?
Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Best Regards,

Brian C.

Brian Ceresney, CTech.
Regulatory Team Lead,
Delta-Q Technologies Corp.
3755 Willingdon Ave.,
Burnaby, BC  Canada  V5G 3H3
Tel: 604-566-8827
www.delta-q.com
bceres...@delta-q.com


Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any at

Re: [PSES] UL1741 -> IEC62109-1

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Brian,

If I recall correctly, there was an action item to try to coordinate with CSA, 
but I don't know where that stands. I doubt that any version of IEC 62109-1, 
even with Canadian differences, could completely replace CSA 107.1 since it is 
a fairly general standard not limited to inverters or power converters.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:41 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: UL1741 -> IEC62109-1

Amazing to behold - UL just published a CSDS proposal issued to adopt
IEC62109-1 in lieu of UL1741.

Anyone know if CSA will follow, or am I destined to continue chasing 3 to 4
safety standards for one silly little box?

Brian

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Interview Questions

[Aldous, Scott]

In this case, checking with the owner of the building before plugging anything 
in ruled!

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main

scott.ald...@aei.com
1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy<http://www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy>


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 3:00 PM
To: john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Interview Questions


Or the internal fuse rules!
___

Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  |   
Regulatory Compliance Engineering


From:

John Allen 

To:

EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Date:

07/05/2012 09:02 AM

Subject:

Re: [PSES] Interview Questions






Auto-ranging rules! :)
(or else the insurance company!)

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Aldous, Scott
Sent: 05 July 2012 16:55
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Interview Questions

Bolivia has a 50Hz grid, but some parts of the country operate at 110V while 
other parts operate at 220V. There is some mixing of the 2 voltages in some 
areas. I was in a room in La Paz where one side of the room was 110V and the 
other side was 220V, with the same type of receptacles and no markings!

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com<mailto:scott.ald...@aei.com>


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy<http://www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy>


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> 
[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]<mailto:[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]> On Behalf Of 
Andrew McCallum
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 1:10 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: Interview Questions

The UK railway signalling system all runs at 110 V AC 50 HZ Andy

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate 
[mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]<mailto:[mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]>
Sent: 03 July 2012 21:17
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions

In message
mailto:CAKEabA3B=iqyzpyjzmb5tjdewp+eowdq40fu9dh88oah6a1...@mail.gmail.com>>,
dated Tue, 3 Jul 2012, IBM Ken mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>> 
writes:

>PS: Who operates at 110VAC 50Hz?

Portable equipment used on construction sites; it's actually 55-0-55, with the 
centre grounded.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> 
and www.isce.org.uk<http://www.isce.org.uk/> Instead of saying that the 
government is doing too little, too late or too much, too early, say they've 
got is exactly right, thus throwing them into total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>


Confidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the 
addressees only (or people authorised to receive them on their behalf) and may 
be confidential or privileged. If they have come to you in error you must take 
no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please 
delete them from your system and reply to this e mail highlighting the error.

Security: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that 
internet e-mail is not 100% secure. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail 
is taken to accept this.

Viruses: We have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are 
virus free, but we advise that in keeping with good computing practice you 
should ensure that they are actually virus free.

DeltaRail Group Limited registered office Hudson H

Re: [PSES] Interview Questions

[Aldous, Scott]

Bolivia has a 50Hz grid, but some parts of the country operate at 110V while 
other parts operate at 220V. There is some mixing of the 2 voltages in some 
areas. I was in a room in La Paz where one side of the room was 110V and the 
other side was 220V, with the same type of receptacles and no markings!

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Andrew McCallum
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 1:10 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Interview Questions

The UK railway signalling system all runs at 110 V AC 50 HZ
Andy

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 03 July 2012 21:17
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Interview Questions

In message
,
dated Tue, 3 Jul 2012, IBM Ken  writes:

>PS: Who operates at 110VAC 50Hz?

Portable equipment used on construction sites; it's actually 55-0-55, with the 
centre grounded.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Instead 
of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too much, too 
early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into total 
confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 


Confidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the 
addressees only (or people authorised to receive them on their behalf) and may 
be confidential or privileged. If they have come to you in error you must take 
no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please 
delete them from your system and reply to this e mail highlighting the error.

Security: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that 
internet e-mail is not 100% secure. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail 
is taken to accept this.

Viruses: We have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are 
virus free, but we advise that in keeping with good computing practice you 
should ensure that they are actually virus free.  

DeltaRail Group Limited registered office Hudson House, 2 Hudson Way, Pride 
Park, Derby, DE24 8HS. Registered in England and Wales, number 5839985. Please 
refer to www.deltarail.com 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ie

Re: [PSES] Interview Questions

[Aldous, Scott]

Yes, I recall that there was a discussion on this very forum not long ago about 
this. You'll notice I worded my answer carefully - I believed this was the 
answer Nick was fishing for. From Nick's response, it would seem I was correct.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy<http://www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy>


From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@equinoxpayments.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:49 PM
To: Aldous, Scott
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Interview Questions

Hi Scott,
That's not always the case. I've had experience with auto-ranging 120/240V 
products where no voltage selector switch was needed.

Best regards,

Ron

From: Aldous, Scott [mailto:scott.ald...@aei.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 12:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Interview Questions

I believe Nick may be fishing for the answer - a voltage selector switch.

Back to the original question... Of course, an interview is much better for 
assessing this type of knowledge, but if you have to have questions on an 
application where candidates fill it out from home, you could ask questions 
based on personal experience, such as "describe an experience you have had 
where you solved an issue with creepage distance and how you did it" or 
something like that. People could always just lie and make something up, but it 
should be pretty easy to tell if someone has no idea what they're talking 
about. Much harder to Google this type of specific problem and solution, I 
would think.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com<mailto:scott.ald...@aei.com>
1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy<http://www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy>


From: emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> 
[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]<mailto:[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]> On Behalf Of IBM 
Ken
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:43 PM
To: Nick Williams
Cc: Kevin Robinson; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: Interview Questions

Not sure this is what you are looking for; but the 110-230V unit is rated as a 
range, so the tolerance would be below 110 and above 230.  The 110/230 V has 
two distinct rating ranges, so the tolerances would be above and below 110 AND 
above and below 230VAC.  That's the first thing that pops into mind, anyway.

PS: Who operates at 110VAC 50Hz?



On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Nick Williams 
mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk>> wrote:
This has the makings of an extremely esoteric pub quiz, if we're not careful!

Here is one, adapted from a phone enquiry I dealt with this morning this 
morning:

You have two appliances. One is marked "110 - 230V ~50Hz" and the other is 
marked "110/230V ~50Hz". What do you look for on one which is missing from the 
other?

I'll let the group answer.

Nick.

On 3 Jul 2012, at 19:38, Kevin Robinson wrote:

Hello All,

I have recently been tasked with writing a set of questions that job
candidates would need to answer at the same time they apply for a
position requiring  knowledge of product safety evaluation, testing
and practices.  These questions would serve as an automated pre
screening mechanism.  Questions like "What does the term creepage
distance mean?" would be perfect , however the challenge that I am
facing is finding questions that the answers are not easily found
using Google.  If anyone has any product safety related questions that
they would not mind sharing, I would greatly appreciate it.

Kevin Robinson

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

Nick Williams
Director
Direct line: +44 1298 873811
Mobile: +44 7702 995135
email: nick.willi...@conformance.co.u

Re: [PSES] Interview Questions

[Aldous, Scott]

I believe Nick may be fishing for the answer - a voltage selector switch.

Back to the original question... Of course, an interview is much better for 
assessing this type of knowledge, but if you have to have questions on an 
application where candidates fill it out from home, you could ask questions 
based on personal experience, such as "describe an experience you have had 
where you solved an issue with creepage distance and how you did it" or 
something like that. People could always just lie and make something up, but it 
should be pretty easy to tell if someone has no idea what they're talking 
about. Much harder to Google this type of specific problem and solution, I 
would think.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com
1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of IBM Ken
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:43 PM
To: Nick Williams
Cc: Kevin Robinson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Interview Questions

Not sure this is what you are looking for; but the 110-230V unit is rated as a 
range, so the tolerance would be below 110 and above 230.  The 110/230 V has 
two distinct rating ranges, so the tolerances would be above and below 110 AND 
above and below 230VAC.  That's the first thing that pops into mind, anyway.

PS: Who operates at 110VAC 50Hz?



On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Nick Williams 
mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk>> wrote:
This has the makings of an extremely esoteric pub quiz, if we're not careful!

Here is one, adapted from a phone enquiry I dealt with this morning this 
morning:

You have two appliances. One is marked "110 - 230V ~50Hz" and the other is 
marked "110/230V ~50Hz". What do you look for on one which is missing from the 
other?

I'll let the group answer.

Nick.

On 3 Jul 2012, at 19:38, Kevin Robinson wrote:


Hello All,

I have recently been tasked with writing a set of questions that job
candidates would need to answer at the same time they apply for a
position requiring  knowledge of product safety evaluation, testing
and practices.  These questions would serve as an automated pre
screening mechanism.  Questions like "What does the term creepage
distance mean?" would be perfect , however the challenge that I am
facing is finding questions that the answers are not easily found
using Google.  If anyone has any product safety related questions that
they would not mind sharing, I would greatly appreciate it.

Kevin Robinson

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

Nick Williams
Director
Direct line: +44 1298 873811
Mobile: +44 7702 995135
email: nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk

-

Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking consultants
The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, SK17 8RG England
Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 
873801, 
www.conformance.co.uk
Registered in England, Company No. 3478646

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 

Re: [PSES] e-standard.org "The cheapest standards in the world"

[Aldous, Scott]

As for UL at least, I would imagine that their not-for-profit status, which is 
largely justified by their activities in creating and maintaining standards, 
goes a long way in paying for those activities through the tax breaks.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 11:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] e-standard.org "The cheapest standards in the world"

I have had conversations with a UL manager and a European IECEE member about 
standards cost; and both people indicated zero level of concern. To quote 
George Burns, "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." 

I understand that there are costs to bear by the WGs and TCs that do this 
stuff, but have not seen data that indicates any of the purchase cost is used 
to directly support standards-development people.

For the U.S., some of the standards purchase cost can be mitigated on the 
corporate tax (R&D expenditures or deduct them as a current expense) - but am 
not an accountant so am not certain of specific requirements.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Derek Walton
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 9:38 AM
To: McInturff, Gary
Cc: don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org "The cheapest standards in the world"

Always one to buck the trend, I think these are reasonable prices

We are ripped off by standards bodies left right and centre

MHO

Derek 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2012, at 10:05 AM, "McInturff, Gary"  
wrote:

Would appear the real pirates are at UL and BSI

Gary

From: Don Gies [mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] e-standard.org "The cheapest standards in the world"

Ahoy, me hearties!

My view is that there are too many standards that are too cheap at this site, 
and if ANSI were really powering it, they would be doing so from their own 
site.  This site might as well hoist high the Jolly Roger, because it’s 
occupied by pirates.

Ex.:   UL 60950-1 for $20 instead of $422?
BS EN 60950-1 for $20 instead of £161 to BSI Members, £322 to 
non-members?


DON GIES 
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
BELL LABS - GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Fax: +1 908 582 0582
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
MEMBER, ALCATEL-LUCENT TECHNICAL ACADEMY

From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:29 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: e-standard.org "The cheapest standards in the world"

Does anyone have experience with the subject standards vendor. 

Their prices are so low (NFPA 70-2011 for $25!?) it has activated all my “if 
it’s too good to be true” warning systems. 

Regards,
Lauren Crane
KLA-Tencor

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-p

Re: [PSES] Circuit breakers in Europe

[Aldous, Scott]

Bussmann has an excellent resource titled Fuseology that I would highly 
recommend. I seem to recall you used to be able to download the whole thing as 
a .pdf. Now, it seems it is broken up into sections but I believe it is still 
on the Cooper Bussmann website if you look persistently enough. Here is a high 
level overview:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/Data%20Sheets/Bus_Ele_DS_8005_Fuseology.pdf

Here is one of the "pieces" that goes over the interrupting rating:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/Solution%20Center/technical_library/BUS_Ele_Tech_Lib_Interrupting_Rating.pdf

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ce-test, 
qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:17 AM
To: Peter Tarver
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Circuit breakers in Europe

AS originally an EMC guy I would appreciate some more discussion about
the coordination of fuses and wiring internationally
both from regulator side as well as technical/ theoretical.


I  have once been involved in a military portable
cabinet +/-15 ft long that included a full "tree" of circuits 
and circuit breakers for all kind of electronics, PC's lighting.

There was a discussion about circuit breaker break current coordination
and "disconnect short circuit currents" in relation to wiring.


An emergency supply of 15kW was part of the system.
The final result as approved by customer was not satisfactorily to me.

All kind of odds are found in the real world also:

For example how come that small glass fuses with a current breaking
capacity 
of 50 A are so frequently used in professional equipment that can
easily be applied in industrial networks protected with over 
100A circuit breakers and a potential Ishort of 20kA or more ?



Regards,

Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc

ce-test qualified testing


. 



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Peter Tarver
Verzonden: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 5:44 PM
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Circuit breakers in Europe

Good day to all.

We (on this list) have had discussions on the differences in the
"calibration characteristics" of fuses certified for use in Europe
versus North America.

We also discussed fuses sizing for what in North America is called a
branch circuit and that fuses in Europe are sized equal to (100% of) the
circuit size.

Does circuit breaker sizing in Europe follow the same circuit size
matching as fuses?

For example, would a 16 A circuit that uses wire sized for a 16 A
circuit use a 16 A circuit breaker?


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver


This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not
an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or
distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please
contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
message. 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confide

Re: [PSES] Mains voltage in Europe

[Aldous, Scott]

ANSI C84.1 has requirements for voltages in the USA.

http://www.powerqualityworld.com/2011/04/ansi-c84-1-voltage-ratings-60-hertz.html

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Richard Nute
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:03 PM
To: 'itl-emc user group'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mains voltage in Europe

> After all this discussion,
> Does anyone know the Mains Voltage in the US.
> It was once 110 VAC and then 115 VAC.
> I heard that now it may be 120 VAC
> Any info would be helpful

Mains voltage in the USA is set by the local utility.
For example, Clark County Public Utility, where I live,
supplies 120 V nominal.  Same for SDG&E where I formerly
lived.  And for PG&E (Northern California).  Go to the 
utility web site; somewhere on the site you can find the 
nominal voltage supplied to a residence or to a business.

I don't know of any USA national standards for voltage 
at the terminals to the residence.

Here's a web site with some history of how the USA got
to 120 V:

 
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_was_120V_chosen_as_the_standard_voltage_of_hom
es_in_the_US_and_not_some_other_voltage 


Here are some other quotes from the web:

"The historic reason for 110 volts is the Direct Current (DC) power systems
created by Thomas Edison. It is believed he chose 110 volts because that is
what his light bulb worked on. Later, these systems were converted to
Alternating Current (AC), so you didn't need a power plant on every street
corner, but the voltage level wasn't changed, so existing lighting didn't
need to be replaced. (At that time they didn't care if they got AC or DC.)"

"It was Thomas Edison who promoted the use of (then) 100 volts as some
tragic experiences in the early days of power distribution showed that 100
volts was not usually lethal for a shock. Remember that in the early days,
single un-insulated wires were strung though ceramic insulators, both
exterior and interior, and so there were many more shock hazards present.
Each splice was made by wrapping one wire around the other one and soldered.
The use of junction boxes was non existent. As technology advanced good,
long life, insulation was wrapped around the conductors." 


Best regards,
Rich

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Kevin,

The 120-240V product is auto-ranging and can use either voltage with no special 
action required. The 120/240V product will have a voltage selector switch. I do 
believe this is common knowledge, at least among product safety engineers. ;)

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Robinson
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:20 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings

Happy Friday everyone

I am asking a question that I already know the answer to, but I am
trying to determine if it is common knowledge or if it was something
that I picked up along the way and have always accepted as being true.

If you were to see a product with a marked electrical rating of
120/240 V and another product with a marked rating of 120-240V, what
would be the difference between these two products?  Would a user or
operator need to do anything special with one or both of these
products to use it at 120V or 240V?

Thanks,

Kevin Robinson
OSHA

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] new std -> UL2747

[Aldous, Scott]

At first glance, I would guess that this is intended to cover the DC-DC 
converter that an EV would need to provide power to electrical systems such as 
headlights, turn signals, heater fan, etc. I'm puzzled by the rating in the 
scope of up to 250Vac at 50/60Hz though.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy



-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 11:11 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: new std -> UL2747

Not able to determine type of equipment that the std writers are addressing.
Also note that initial bulletin for proposed std refs 60950-21. No make
sense as scope disallows battery charger, and is for AC power. AC/DC
converter that has 'embedded' communications, a la BPL/PLC? Any ideas?

Scope statement
1.1 These requirements cover power supplies that are intended for fixed
installation on board an electric vehicle for powering systems installed on
board the vehicle. Power supplies that are covered by these requirements are
rated up to 250 V ac, 50/60 Hz.
1.2 Power supplies covered by these requirements are not intended to have
their outputs supplied directly to on-board battery packs. Devices for this
purpose are considered on-board chargers and are covered by the Standard for
Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging System Equipment, UL 2202.
1.3 This outline does not cover power supplies for general use or power
supplies intended to be used within the passenger compartment of the
vehicle.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries

[Aldous, Scott]

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/11/29/could-chevy-volt-lithium-ion-battery-fires-burn-out-interest-in-evs-and-hybrids/

These conditions were certainly quite abnormal, but it is interesting that the 
fires were not initiated immediately following the crash tests.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
don_borow...@selinc.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:55 PM
To: ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; jral...@productsafetyinc.com
Subject: Re: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries

As I understand it, there are different lithium-ion battery chemistries, 
so not all Li-I batteries are susceptible to starting a fire.

Donald Borowski
EMC Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, Washington, USA



From:   ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com
To: "jral...@productsafetyinc.com" 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:   01/12/2012 10:37 AM
Subject:Re: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org




With just about everything now manufactured in developing countries with 
inexpensive labour, I wonder 
if quality control of these batteries could be a contributing factor 
towards acute thermal failure.  As I understand it, of this battery 
chemistry is charged/discharged correctly, there shouldn't be a problem, 
but how do they wear out?
_
 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Renewable Energies Business | 
  CANADA  |   Regulatory Compliance Engineering 



From: 
"jral...@productsafetyinc.com"  
To: 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Date: 
01/12/2012 07:24 AM 
Subject: 
Re: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries




Forgot to ask ? I believe current Standards require thermal protection, 
but are they enough? 
  
John Allen 
President 
Product Safety Consulting, Inc. 
605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J 
Bensenville, IL  60106 
P - 630 238-0188 / F - 630 238-0269 
1-877-804-3066 
jral...@productsafetyinc.com 
http://www.productsafetyinc.com 
  
  
Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail 
and any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software. 
It is the responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free. 
PSC does not accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage 
arising in any way from its use.  This message is confidential and 
intended only for the individual to whom or entity to which it is 
addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient or addressee, or an 
employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the 
addressee, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, 
or copying, in whole or part, of this message is strictly prohibited.  If 
you believe that you have been sent this message in error, please do not 
read it.  Please immediately reply to sender that you have received this 
message in error.  Then permanently delete all copies of the message. 
Thank you. 
  
From: jral...@productsafetyinc.com [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries 
  
Interesting article and findings by John Hopkins University? 
  
http://gazette.jhu.edu/2012/01/09/discovery-warns-of-catastrophic-failure-of-lithium-ion-batteries/
 

  
  
John Allen 
Product Safety Consulting, Inc. 
605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J 
Bensenville, IL  60106 
P - 630 238-0188 / F - 630 238-0269 
1-877-804-3066 
jral...@productsafetyinc.com 
http://www.productsafetyinc.com 
  
IEEE PSES - http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ 
IEEE PSES Chicago - http://ewh.ieee.org/r4/chicago/pstc/ 
IEEE PSES Risk Assessment Technical Committee - 
http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/TAC/RATC/index.html 
  

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying o

Re: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries

[Aldous, Scott]

That's a very good question, especially considering that lithium ion batteries 
are making their way into electric vehicles:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/lithium-batteries-for-hybrid-cars

The potential safety issue seems to be downplayed by the last paragraph in the 
above-linked article, at least to me. I'd hate to be behind the wheel of an EV, 
with my kids in the back seat, when a large lithium ion battery pack starts to 
go into thermal runaway.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
jral...@productsafetyinc.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:23 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries

Forgot to ask - I believe current Standards require thermal protection, but are 
they enough?

John Allen
President
Product Safety Consulting, Inc.
605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J
Bensenville, IL  60106
P - 630 238-0188 / F - 630 238-0269
1-877-804-3066
jral...@productsafetyinc.com
http://www.productsafetyinc.com


Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail and 
any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software.  It is the 
responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free.  PSC does not 
accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage arising in any way 
from its use.  This message is confidential and intended only for the 
individual to whom or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the 
intended recipient or addressee, or an employee or agent responsible for 
delivering this message to the addressee, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying, in whole or part, of this message is 
strictly prohibited.  If you believe that you have been sent this message in 
error, please do not read it.  Please immediately reply to sender that you have 
received this message in error.  Then permanently delete all copies of the 
message. Thank you.

From: jral...@productsafetyinc.com [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Thermal Protection of Lithium Ion Batteries

Interesting article and findings by John Hopkins University...

http://gazette.jhu.edu/2012/01/09/discovery-warns-of-catastrophic-failure-of-lithium-ion-batteries/


John Allen
Product Safety Consulting, Inc.
605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J
Bensenville, IL  60106
P - 630 238-0188 / F - 630 238-0269
1-877-804-3066
jral...@productsafetyinc.com
http://www.productsafetyinc.com

IEEE PSES - http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
IEEE PSES Chicago - http://ewh.ieee.org/r4/chicago/pstc/
IEEE PSES Risk Assessment Technical Committee - 
http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/TAC/RATC/index.html


Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail and 
any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software.  It is the 
responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free.  PSC does not 
accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage arising in any way 
from its use.  This message is confidential and intended only for the 
individual to whom or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the 
intended recipient or addressee, or an employee or agent responsible for 
delivering this message to the addressee, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying, in whole or part, of this message is 
strictly prohibited.  If you believe that you have been sent this message in 
error, please do not read it.  Please immediately reply to sender that you have 
received this message in error.  Then permanently delete all copies of the 
message. Thank you.

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To po

Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions

[Aldous, Scott]

There is a guideline in EN 60335-2-6, the part 2 for stationary cooking ranges, 
ovens, hobs and similar appliances. Note 101 under 11.7 indicates:

"Steady conditions are considered to be established if the temperature does not 
rise by more than 1 K in 15 min."

I don't know if it's intended to be generally applicable, or if the same 
guidance is in other 60335 part 2 standards, but it seems as good a guide as 
any.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Steady State Conditions

Long ago, when I worked with heating and cooling equipment, Underwriters 
Laboratories defined temperature stability as follows.

"A temperature was considered to be constant when three successive readings 
taken at 10-min intervals indicated that stabilized temperatures were 
established (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two 
readings).  If the temperatures measured were within 5 percent of the 
[temperature limits defined within the standard] the test was continued until 
two successive 10-min readings indicated constant temperatures."

There was further clarification that if a temperature reading was cycling 
between two different points, the maximum temperature of each cycle was to be 
used. If the cycle time was less than 10 minutes, the peaks of cycles greater 
than 10 minutes apart were to be used for comparison. For cycles lasting longer 
than 10 minutes, the peaks of three consecutive cycles were to be used.

Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate 
when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage 
in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Steli Loznen [mailto:st...@itl.co.il]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Steady State Conditions

Hi Jacob,
In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the 
status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was 
less than 1 K/s.
Maybe this can help.
Best Regards,
Steli

Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE
I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd.
Q.A & Certification Manager
Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29
Member of IEEE-PSES BoD
1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87
LOD 71100, ISRAEL
Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203
Fax:+972-8-9153101
Mobile:+972-54-7245794
e-mail: st...@itl.co.il
www.itl.co.il



From: Jacob Gleeson 
[mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions

Unfortunately not.
From:

John Woodgate mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>>

To:

mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>

Date:

11/01/2012 09:51

Subject:

Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions






In message
mailto:of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk>>,
dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, 
jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes:

>Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when
>conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part
>2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-(

It's probably in Part 1.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to 

Re: [PSES] Orgalime: UL an "effective barrier to trade"

[Aldous, Scott]

In all fairness to Orgalime, the answer that Rich gives doesn't really provide 
a practical solution for component manufacturers. 

As long as all the agencies accept UL certification of components as valid and 
UL is reluctant to accept component certifications from other agencies, this 
will drive component manufacturers to always go to UL for certification, though 
they may get other certifications in addition to UL depending on perceived 
market advantages of doing so. An end product manufacturer is certainly free to 
go to another NRTL rather than UL, but the component manufacturers aren't going 
to go away from UL unless and until the advantage UL has here is eliminated - 
which is unlikely to be driven by the market without some form of outside 
intervention or collaboration among competing entities. Even if all of a sudden 
UL were to lose most of its market share for end products, as long as their 
component certification is the only one that is universally accepted by all 
NRTLs, the situation will not change.

Historical considerations have created a situation where competition alone 
doesn't truly determine who wins.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.214.9427 Mobile
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Orgalime: UL an "effective barrier to trade"

In message , dated Thu, 
22 Dec 2011, Richard Nute  writes:

>The answer to the Orgalime paper is to use a
>different certification house for both
>components and end-products.  Competition
>determines who wins.

I really wish these European bodies would do their homework properly 
when making a case, instead of attacking straw men.
>
>
>Best wishes for the holiday season,

Your seasonal felicitations are cordially reciprocated.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

RE: Safety Experts: Limited Voltage Pwr Supplies vs. Non-Limited Voltage Power Supplies

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Christine,

 

IEC/UL/EN 60950-1 refers to LPS as a Limited Power Source, and is described in
clause 2.5 of that standard. It encompasses a limitation on voltage, but also
includes limiting of current and power as well. There are requirements in the
standard that no longer need to be applied when a circuit is known to be LPS,
that would need to be applied to a circuit that has limited voltage, but is
not LPS. So, in general, you cannot simply replace a power supply with an LPS
output with one with a non-LPS output and automatically have confidence that
you are still compliant. Whether the non-LPS output supply would be acceptable
in your end product/application will depend on the end product/application,
and would need to be evaluated.

 

Scott Aldous

Compliance Engineer

Advanced Energy

Tel: 970-407-6872

Fax: 970-407-5872



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Christine
Rodham
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:39 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Safety Experts: Limited Voltage Pwr Supplies vs. Non-Limited Voltage
Power Supplies

 

Hi List Members,

 

We have a vendor that provides us a unit that uses an external power supply (
90- 240VAC)

The power supply is labeled LPS after the model number which means: Limited
Voltage Power Supply.

 

They recently changed vendors to another power supply with the EXACT same
rating Except it was not marked as a LIMITED voltage power supply.

 

Our supplier says this is not a compliance / safety issue because both
supplies are recognized by UL and have the same voltage and current rating.

 

So the $64, dollar question is can you use a non- LPS in place of a LPS if
they have the same rating?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Christine Rodham

  -

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at
http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. 

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell  

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald  

This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is
confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at
http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. 

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell  

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald  

RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts?

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Brian,

 

When I worked for UL, I had heard that the use of wire nuts was not acceptable
for the EU (CE Marking), but I don’t recall ever seeing the source of this
alleged requirement. I have a vague recollection about them not having any
type of international certifications, but I’m not sure about that.

 

There is a book, CE Marking Handbook: A Practical Approach to Global Safety
Certification, by David Lohbeck, published in 1998, which covers this, but not
in depth. You can preview the book on Google.

 

On page 119, that book indicates that “U.S. wire-nuts are not permitted for
wire connections.” I don’t believe the source of this statement is
provided, and it well may just be the opinion of the author.

 

Scott Aldous

Compliance Engineer

Advanced Energy

Tel: 970-407-6872

Fax: 970-407-5872



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:39 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts?

 

Hello Brian,

 

Off hand, I am unaware of anything preventing the use of a twist-on wire
connector in portable equipment, but that doesn’t mean that the prohibition
doesn’t exist.  Other list members may know of specific cases where the
connectors are prohibited.  However, the description of the connector covered
in electrical tape indicates that the connector is likely used outside of its
UL Listing (if it is even a Listed connector.)

 

First, let me state that “Wire-Nut” is a registered trademark of Ideal
Industries.  If you are looking for information in standards, the term
“twist-on wire connector” will be used.

 

Vibration during use is probably not the main issue.  There are many types of
fixed equipment, such as an air conditioner or other motor driven appliance,
where twist-on connectors are used and they are subject to regular vibration. 
The connectors may see more vibration in these applications than they might
see in some portable appliances.

 

However, your description gives me cause to be concerned.  UL does List
twist-on connectors under category code ZMVV and they have been around for
quite a while.  (Ideal’s UL file number is E5238 and that should give you an
idea as to the age of the product.)  The connectors’ Listing does have some
very specific requirements.  Specific size connectors are Listed only for use
with specific wire sizes and types.  The installation instructions must be
followed closely.  Some of the wire connectors specify that you should not
twist the wires first.  The twisting of the wire connector will twist the
wires to make the proper connection.  If you see a connector covered with
black tape, there is likely a problem.  The tape is typically used when there
is a concern that the connector will come loose.  This is done based on the
installer’s experience.  If they have had connectors come loose, it is
because they are likely using them incorrectly.  The tape does not fix
anything.  Electrical tape will not likely withstand the test of time and the
adhesive will degrade.  Cheap electrical tape rarely lasts long at all.

 

There are numerous crimp connectors suitable for connecting wires.  There are
but splices and crimp connectors designed to perform the same purpose as a
twist-on connector.  The crimp connectors make a good, permanent splice.  The
twist-on connector is intended for use where connections are made in the
field, particularly where they may need to be undone for servicing.  Crimp
connections and terminal blocks are better options for factory connections.

 

Ted Eckert

Compliance Engineer

Microsoft Corporation

ted.eck...@microsoft.com

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.

 

 

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 6:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: What's the deal with Wire Nuts?

 

Greetings Experts.

 

This should be an easy one for those who know the answer.

 

What is the deal with Wire Nuts?  Where can be they be used, where can’t
they be used?  Are there different rules for permanently mounted equipment
verse portable equipment? Do you have to also use a mechanical device such are
a tie wrap? How about black tape?

 

Our company does not use wire nuts but we always had the impression that
safety inspectors do not like to see wire nuts in portable equipment.  We are
evaluating a product made by another company that uses wire nuts on primary
wiring with black tape wrapped around it.  Is this technique acceptable
internationally on portable equipment?

 

Thanks to all in advance for the education.  

 

The Other Brian

_ 

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 

-


This message is from

RE: C-tick approvals

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Michael,

 

There are agents both in Australia and New Zealand that you can use for this.
They would then issue the declaration, and hold the compliance folder, and you
could mark your product with the C-Tick together with the agent’s supplier
code. They will charge you an up front fee, and an annual fee thereafter to
maintain the folder.

 

You can probably google around for agents. One that I have seen used a lot for
ITE in my previous job is Qualsure Consultants. There are quite a few others
also. Useful information at these sites:

 

http://www.acma.gov.au/web/STANDARD//pc%3DPC_100964
 

 

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legisla
ion/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/0037BC
72B3EF925CA2573E1000FA6AC/$file/RadcomLabellingElectromagCompNotice2008.pdf

 

Scott Aldous

Compliance Engineer

Advanced Energy

Tel: 970-407-6872

Fax: 970-407-5872



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Garretson
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 4:18 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: C-tick approvals

 

Greetings listmembers,

 

I have a request to obtain C-Tick approvals for a computer platform we
manufacture.

I have been told that we need to have in-country representation in order to
secure and maintain this approval.

We don’t currently have offices there and don’t intend to work with a
distributor.  Our sales will be directly to a multinational company who will
deploy and support it.

If my customer isn’t keen on owning the cert, what are my options?

 

Michael Garretson
Compliance Engineer

Work: +1 503 615-1515
Fax: +1 503 615-1285
Email: michael.garret...@radisys.com  

 

RadiSys Corporation
5445 NW Dawson Creek Dr
 Hillsboro, OR 97124
USA

See who we know in common  

Want a signature like this?  

 

This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is
confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc 

RE: mobile phone safety

[Aldous, Scott]

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/94863

 

Scott Aldous

Compliance Engineer

Advanced Energy

Tel: 970-407-6872

Fax: 970-407-5872



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Nadeau
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:08 AM
To: 'Pettit, Ghery'; 'James, Chris'; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: mobile phone safety

 

Bonjour 

 

It is a fake; it is coming form a company that sells Bluetooth ear plugs.

 

Did you ever count the time it takes in a microwave oven to ear the first pop
compare to the time you see the grain pop in the video?

 

But, as I say to my wife, these scary messages that come from time to time
about the possible bad effects of RF energy are job security for me…

 

Bye,

 

Benoit

 

==



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Pettit, Ghery
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:56 AM
To: James, Chris; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: mobile phone safety

 

Having tried to pop popcorn in an underpowered microwave oven once, I think
these videos are hoaxes.

 

Ghery Pettit

 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of James, Chris
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:06 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: mobile phone safety

 

Anyone care to comment on whether popping pop-corn with mobile (cell) phones
is a reality?

 

A number of video clips are appearing on the internet demonstrating it but it
could of course be contrived:

 

http://www.koreus.com/video/telephone-portable-mais-popcorn.html
http://www.koreus.com/video/telephone-portable-mais-popcorn.html> 

 

 

Chris

 

 

This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is
confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 



This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information
intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended
recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient,
disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message
is strictly prohibited. 

This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is
confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the I

RE: Chassis mount PS UL considerations

[Aldous, Scott]

Hi Alex,

FYI, there is a UL PAG (Practical Application Guideline) related to the
acceptability of the use of knurled thumbscrews, assuming the ITE
standard for safety (UL 60950-1) is applicable to your product. A
subscription is required to access the PAGs, but if you're going to be
working with 60950-1, it's probably worth the cost. 

I believe the PAG reference number that you might find useful is
1.2.7-1.

http://data.ul.com/pagos/

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy
Tel: 970-407-6872
Fax: 970-407-5872

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:31 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Chassis mount PS UL considerations

In message <736875.62583...@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, dated Mon, 16 
Jun 2008, Alex Horvath  writes:


>To pass UL, I'm guessing that additional shielding will be required to 
>cover the ring terminals. Are there detailed requirements for this type

>of situation or is any reasonable cover/shield acceptable?

Rather than puzzle over whether a cover is needed or not to pass UL, as 
many do, you have made a simplifying assumption that one is needed. I 
would support that approach. It should be attached in some way, so that 
it can't be left off by a service technician. It would be good to label 
it, indicating that live parts are underneath.

The material almost certainly needs to be flame-retardant to some 
degree.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to
stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You
choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list.Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:

 Scott Douglas   emcp...@ptcnh.net
 Mike Cantwell   mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:

 Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
 David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

This message, including any attachments, may contain 
information that is confidential and proprietary information 
of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination,
distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express 
written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list.Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:

 Scott Douglas   emcp...@ptcnh.net
 Mike Cantwell   mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:

 Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
 David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

RE: UL60950 vs. IEC 60950

[Aldous, Scott]

The UL standard will highlight differences from the base (IEC) standard. The
EN standard will also highlight differences from the base (IEC) standard.

 

Another thing you could do is get the latest CB bulletin for OFF from the
IECEE, which will list published national and group differences. You can get a
12 month subscription for about US $100. If the link below works, it gives a
preview as to what the bulletin has in it:

 

http://members.iecee.org/iecee/ieceemem
ers.nsf/vScopebyStdCatOnly?OpenView&SBV=OFF

 

Scott Aldous

Compliance Engineer

Advanced Energy

Tel: 970-407-6872

Fax: 970-407-5872



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ron Pickard,
RPQ
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:06 AM
To: david.cole...@selex-comms.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: UL60950 vs. IEC 60950

 

Hi Dave,

 

Technically speaking your subject line should’ve been UL60950-1 vs.
EN60950-1 given your query. Anyway, without going into detail you only have to
look at these standards to see the differences between them and from
IEC60950-1, in particular:

UL60950-1: Preface listing 6 types of deviations and Annexes NAA - NAE

EN60950-1: Annexes ZA - ZC

 

Actually, a CB Scheme investigation against IEC60950-1 addressing all national
deviations should be the basis of acceptance in both the US and the EU.

 

If you would like to discuss this further off-line, please let me know.

 

Best regards,

Ron Pickard
RPQ Consulting
7372 West Luke Avenue
Glendale, AZ 85303
+623.512-3451 tel, +623.848-9033 fax
rpick...@rpqconsulting.com

www.rpqconsulting.com



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
david.cole...@selex-comms.com
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 6:06 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: UL60950 vs. IEC 60950

 


Sorry if this has been asked before, but can anyone point me to a comparison
of these two standards, highlighting any significant differences? 

Is there any significant reason why compliance with UL60950 cannot be used to
show compliance with the LVD for CE marking? 

Any help appreciated, 

Best Regards,
Dave Coleman AIIRSM
SELEX Communications 

This email and any attached files contains company confidential information
which may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the person(s) or
entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein.
If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error
please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any
local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email
including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing,
distributing, amending or using for any other purpose.

In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common
law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not
limited to viruses and libel.
SELEX Communications Limited is a Private Limited Company registered in
England and Wales under Company Number 964533 and whose Registered Office is
Marconi House, New Street, CHELMSFORD, Essex. CM1 1PL. England.
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is
confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its
attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
--

RE: Safety regulations

[Aldous, Scott]

Curt writes:

 

To phrase this another way: someone else's label (the power supply
manufacturer) is not a valid indicator that a product has a safety approval. 

 

If I understand the original question correctly, this is what it really comes
down to. The power supply may be Listed by itself, but that does not mean that
the end product using it is then somehow covered by the power supply Listing,
even if no additional hazards are present in the end product outside the power
supply. If there is a requirement for the end product to be Listed, then it
must be evaluated separately. Allowing the power supply Listing mark to be
visible in the end product in such a way that the customer is led to believe
that this mark covers the end product is a no-no.

 

Scott Aldous

Compliance Engineer

Advanced Energy

Tel: 970-407-6872

Fax: 970-407-5872



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Curt McNamara
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:38 AM
To: ted.eck...@apcc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Safety regulations

 

Wow! The chart shows 2A at 45V for Class II, or 100VA as you note. This is a
lot of energy to me, and can certainly result in ignition given the correct
conditions. I note that the standard also shows voltages above SELV as
permissible. 

 

The implication in the original question was information technology (as far as
I could tell). Even with approved supplies and only SELV levels safety
investigations are still required. 

 

Some examples:

Flammable material (the laptop plastic case).

Fault (5V to ground) causes part to fall off board through vent hole, igniting
material on table.

 

There are lots of ways to design unsafe products using only SELV (not even
considering Class II). If your product needs a safety approval then an
investigation is required.

 

To phrase this another way: someone else's label (the power supply
manufacturer) is not a valid indicator that a product has a safety approval. 

 

  
 Curt

 

in real life

Curt McNamara, P.E. // principal electrical engineer
Logic Product Development
411 Washington Ave. N. Suite 400
Minneapolis, MN 55401
T // 612.436.5178
F // 612.672.9489
_www.logicpd.com_ http://www.logicpd.com/>

 

On May 2, 2008, at 7:24 AM, ted.eck...@apcc.com wrote:





The output of a Class 2/LPS circuit does not have the voltage or energy to
be a shock or ignition risk as long as that voltage is used without any
changes.  I could design a circuit with an inverter and step-up transformer
that would give me a hazardous voltage.  The Class 2 limit is 100 W.  In
theory, I could get 1000 VAC RMS at 100 mA.  Even with losses due
efficiency limits, there would be enough current to kill somebody.

I will say that in general, if you are using a power supply that meets the
60950 LPS or the NEC Class 2 limits (they are basically the same) then you
can hang circuits off the output without problems.  However, it still needs
to be investigated in a case by case basis.

Ted Eckert
APC-MGE
http://www.apc.com/

The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the
writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader. The writer
is not speaking in an official capacity for APC-MGE or Schneider Electric.
The speaker does not represent APC-MGE's or Schneider Electric's official
position on any matter.



scott barrows 
   To 
Sent by:  Curt McNamara ,   
emc-p...@ieee.org peter merguerian
   
   cc 
05/02/2008 07:10  Benoit Nadeau , 
AMEMC-PSTC 
  Subject 
  Re: Safety regulations  










If the power supply is an NEC class 2 (vs a class II insulation system) or
an LPS construction, then there is not enough current available to be a
fire hazard.

Scott

Curt McNamara  wrote:
What if a short occurred on one of these PCBs? Is there enough flammable
material to constitute a fire hazard? Could a component get hot enough to
melt connections and drop off, igniting material underneath the product?

As you can see, there may be other cases to consider. Given that an event
could initiate legal action, it may be wise to have a third party verify
safety.

Curt

On May 1, 2008, at 10:37 PM, peter merguerian wrote:

  If the power supply is Listed/Certified Class 2 (power limited
  outputs) and there are no hazardous energy levels, I see no
  problems.

  Peter Merguerian



  Benoit Nadeau  wrote:
  B