Re: [PSES] Zuken

[Charles Grasso]

To whoever is asking: Your best bet is to contact the local sales rep or
app engineer and ask your question directly.



On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 4:40 PM Lfresearch <
00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> 00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org
>
> Hi folks, I’ve been asked a few questions on Zuken that I’m not sure how
> to answer. Anyone familiar with the package? In particular the design rules
> checking function.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Derek
> -
> 
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

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[PSES] Status of CKC lab in Mariposa

[Charles Grasso]

As I recall - CKC had a three EMI labs in Mariposa. Does anyone
know of the status of the labs vis-a-vis the fire.?

-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

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Re: [PSES] Wire through a shield

[Charles Grasso]

Awesome, thanks!

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 10:44 AM Lfresearch  wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> lfresea...@aol.com  *
> --
> Hi Chas, thanks, thats super.
>
> Figure 7 is very close ( actually close enough ) to what I want to
> illustrate.
>
> If you’re at the show, coffee is on me!
>
> Take care,
>
> Derek.
>
> On Jul 26, 2022, at 9:56 AM, Charles Grasso 
> wrote:
>
> Simulation of Shielding Effectiveness of Materials using CST Studio
>
>
>

-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Wire through a shield

[Charles Grasso]

Hi Derek - You might want to look at " Simulation of Shielding
Effectiveness of Materials using CST Studio"
paper publicly available.

Cheers

Chas

On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 1:45 PM Lfresearch <
00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> 00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org
>
> Good day folks,
>
> I’m looking for public domain data that shows the impact of stuffing a
> wire through a faraday shield. We all know what happens, but I was hoping
> for a simulation or test data so I can give quantitive numbers rather than
> generalities.
>
> Any suggestions gladly received.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Derek.
> -
> 
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

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Re: [PSES] Trouble with IEEE Xplore

[Charles Grasso]

Hello John - The IEEE Explorer site takes my money gleefully!

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 11:30 AM John Woodgate  wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: j...@woodjohn.uk
>  *
> --
>
> This is off-topic, but I hope that someone who knows more about IEEE can
> help me. I've know for years that I can't even buy a paper from Xplore, let
> alone get one free; it just doesn't work, but today I needed a paper so
> couldn't just give up. I went to the Chat feature and the agent was able to
> buy the paper for me, but could not fix the problem.
>
> What happens is that I sign in, find the paper, click on 'PDF', putting
> the paper in my cart, then I click on the 'Purchase' tab. That takes me
> back to the sign-in page and empties the cart.
>
> Does anyone else have this problem?
> --
>
> ==
> Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> www.woodjohn.uk
> <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
> Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>  Virus-free.
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> <#m_2841483488994329676_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> -
> 
>
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Ignition suppress ion question

[Charles Grasso]

Lots of shielding/filtering springs to mind

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 6:52 AM Lfresearch <
00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> 00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org
>
> Good morning folks
>
> I have a question or two about suppressing the EMC ramifications of a
> multi circuit ignition system
>
> Does anyone have a good grasp on the various ways of suppressing noise
> that might couple into a VHF radio some 10 to 12 feet away. I’m trying to
> weigh benefits vs the pain of implementing the fix.
>
> Thanks
>
> Derek.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Earthing -- Star vs Spring/Split Washers

[Charles Grasso]

I am sure our military folks have run across this issue before! Perhaps you
can look into some of the publicly available documents ??

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 5:54 PM Richard Nute  wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: ri...@ieee.org
>  *
> --
>
>
>
> Hello James:
>
>
>
> As for resistance of the connection, I doubt that there is significant
> difference.  I have tested both with a high-current-sourcing milliohmeter.
> You can repeat the test and see if there is a difference in the
> resistance.  (Even a loose connection will still pass the high current
> test.)
>
>
>
> A star washer is more likely to penetrate paint.  However, a stud mounted
> in a panel is independent of paint.  So, a lockwasher simply locks the nut
> to the stud and has little to no effect on the resistance of the
> connection.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* James Pawson (U3C) 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 7:34 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Earthing -- Star vs Spring/Split Washers
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> I’ve given myself a regular internet headache trying to understand the
> relative merits of spring vs star washers for use on an earth stud for
> protective earthing purposes.
>
>
>
> What is the conventional wisdom and justification? I know I can trust you
> folks to be above a simple “we’ve always done it this way”
>
>
>
> Can anyone point me towards any citable references or standards covering
> this subject?
>
>
>
> I promise I will write a blog post to pull the information together for
> future confused generations.
>
>
>
> Thanks and all the best,
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
> James Pawson
>
> The EMC Problem Solver
>
>
>
> *Unit 3 Compliance Ltd*
>
> *EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA :
> Consultancy*
>
>
>
> www.unit3compliance.co.uk
> <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/>
> |  ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk
>
> +44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957
>
> 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
>
> Registered in England and Wales # 10574298
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Declarations of Conformity-Gap Analysis Reports-EMC

[Charles Grasso]

Its been a while since I looked - but I think the standards typically lists
the changes and differences. Or has that changed?

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 4:41 PM Ryan Jazz 
wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> rjayasin...@yamahaguitargroup.com  *
> --
>
> Dear Group,
>
> I am afraid the answer to my question may rely on purchasing ‘before and
> after’ standards and sifting out the delta in order to prepare a Gap Report
> to a Declaration of Conformity.
>
>- If there is an alternate method please advise. A recommended service
>perhaps. Decoder Ring?
>
> At the moment I am stuck trying to come up with a *source* I can
> reference to explain the difference between EN 55035:2017, vs. EN
> 55035:2017/A11:2020, and EN 55032:2015, vs EN 55032:2015/A11:2020.
>
> This forum touched on it last October by sharing a document referring to
> the Frankfort Agreement (
> https://boss.cenelec.eu/media/4dij213u/en_iecreferencing.pdf
> <https://boss.cenelec.eu/media/4dij213u/en_iecreferencing.pdf>
> )
>
>- Is there a similar explanation for the latest amendments to 55035,
>and can someone share a good source to find these difference.
>
> Not sure why these matters have to be so cryptic in this already mazy
> world of product compliance.
>
> I’ve been at this since 1999 and this is one area where I have not felt
> well-heeled.
>
> Your help and guidance is greatly appreciated.
>
> Ryan Jazz
>
>
>
> Ryan Jayasinghe
>
> Regulatory Compliance Engineer
>
> rjayasin...@line6.com
>
>
>
> "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" -
> Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
> LINE6
>
> 26580 Agoura Road
>
> Calabasas CA 91302
>
> 818.575.3711
>
> line6.com
>
> ampeg.com
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Risk assessment versus HBSE

[Charles Grasso]

.html>
>
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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[PSES] Minimizing EM radiation from a 5G multi device test lab

[Charles Grasso]

Greetings from snowy Colorado!

We have multiple WIFI devices in a lab and we need to suppress the RF
signals (NOT EMI) to reduce the interference from affecting other WIFI
areas of the building.

Does anyone know of a cheap and effective way of doing this?


TIA

Chas




-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Notice about LVD compliance in a DoC for machinery?

[Charles Grasso]

Other that the fact that the statement is  "the manufacturer’s EC
Declaration of
conformity *shall not* refer to the LVD but to the MD".?

My guess is that you could invalidate the DoC if you violate that
requirement.


Chas

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:41 AM Oliver Betz  wrote:

> This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
>
> Hi all,
>
> the "Guide to application of the Machinery Directive 2006/42/EC",
> Edition 2.2: https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/38022 states:
>
> "...Thus, whilst machinery with an electrical supply, which is not in
> any of the categories listed in Article 1(2) (k) of MD, shall fulfil the
> safety objectives of the LVD, the manufacturer’s EC Declaration of
> conformity shall not refer to the LVD but to the MD".
>
> Yet, EN60204-1:2018 is listed in the LVD summary of harmonised standards.
>
> Would it harm to state also the LVD conformity in a DoC for machinery?
>
> The above mentioned guide writes that the DoC "shall *not* refer to the
> LVD but to the MD" but I'm not sure about the intention behind.
>
> And we have problems with Turkish customs insisting that the DoC shall
> list also LVD compliance.
>
> I wonder whether / how I can phrase an elegant note on the LVD compliance.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Oliver
>
> -
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

[Charles Grasso]

d1CLYNjeYs5yAw=>>
>
>
> -
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] machinery that is moving while working, wot CE requirements

[Charles Grasso]

Perhaps you should contact a Notified Body?

On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 5:36 PM Pete Perkins <
0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
>
> All, I have a client that is producing a machine that moves while
> working – such as a fork lift or lumber carrier.
>
>
>
>Trying to understand the CE requirements for such
> equipment.
>
>
>
>What Directives apply? What technical standard apply?  What
> other regulatory issues arise?
>
>
>
>Let me know what the requirements are.
>
>
>
> :>) br,  Pete
>
>
>
> Peter E Perkins, PE
>
> Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
>
> PO Box 1067
>
> Albany, ORe  97321-0413
>
>
>
> 503/452-1201
>
>
>
> IEEE Life Fellow
>
> IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
>
> www.researchgate.net <http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> search
> my name
>
> p.perk...@ieee.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Entropy ain’t what it used to be
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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>
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>
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>
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>


-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-

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Re: [PSES] Max Hold Quasi-peak ?

[Charles Grasso]

Interesting topic!

Completely agree with Brent!.

I would only add the "quality" of the signal can also contribute to the
variation - by that I mean if there
 is any kind of modulation on the signal then that will contribute to the
measurement difficulties.
 It is also not unusual for a lab to sit on a signal if the signal has a
noted time variance
(this is from experience).


On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:46 AM Amund Westin 
wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
>
>
>
> Some weeks ago I went to a test lab as an observer on a CE marking project
> (IT product).
>
> I participated on the radiated emission testing and some frequencies were
> above the limit line during the scan (peak measurement). Later on, the
> Quasi-Peak measurement lowered the values significant and therefore with
> the result Passed.
>
> Later on, I was told that they continued the testing by 10-15 minutes and
> was logging the maximum Quasi Peak value (repetitive QP meas) on spike with
> the highest value. During these 15 minutes, one or two QP measurement was
> above the limit and the result was changed from Passed to Failed.
>
> I have not seen this test procedure before. I’m familiar with just one QP
> measurement on each frequency and not Max Hold QP on each for 10-15
> minutes.
>
> Anyone who have experienced the same? Is it a CISPR procedure or just some
> overzealous lab engineers?
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Amund
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
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> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-

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Re: [PSES] Ground Fingers routed in CPU pin fields

[Charles Grasso]

I should add that the pwb is designed with a ground plane 4mils from the
diff pair.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:57 PM Istvan Novak <
0e1e25a317ad-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
>
> Hi Charles,
>
> Having a trace shorted to ground at one end and leaving open at the other
> end creates a quarter-wave resonator.
>
> If for sake of example the propagation delay on the particular layer is
> 160ps/", 250mils has 40ps and the period at the quarter-wave resonance is
> 4*40ps=160ps, which is around 6GHz.  At that frequency (and increasingly as
> we approach that frequency) the insertion loss, reflection and crosstalk
> will be higher.  Whether this creates a problem, depends on the signaling
> speed and signaling budget.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Istvan Novak
>
> Samtec
>
>
> On 11/29/2021 1:55 PM, Charles Grasso wrote:
>
> Hello all and I hope your Thanksgiving went well!
>
> I am seeking some guidance on the effect (detrimental or otherwise) on
> adding short (say 250mils) ground fingers in between high speed
> differential
> pairs at their source. i.e at the IC pin field. The ground finger only has
> a via
> at the entrance to the pin field and not at the final destination 250 mils
> away.
>
> Does anyone know of (or have experience of ) any issues this may cause?
>
>
> --
>
> Charles Grasso
>
> Dish Technologies
>
>  (c) 303-204-2974
>
> (h) 303-317-5530
>
> (e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
>
> (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
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-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-

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[PSES] Ground Fingers routed in CPU pin fields

[Charles Grasso]

Hello all and I hope your Thanksgiving went well!

I am seeking some guidance on the effect (detrimental or otherwise) on
adding short (say 250mils) ground fingers in between high speed differential
pairs at their source. i.e at the IC pin field. The ground finger only has
a via
at the entrance to the pin field and not at the final destination 250 mils
away.

Does anyone know of (or have experience of ) any issues this may cause?


-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-

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[PSES] Test

[Charles Grasso]

-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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[PSES] Pure silicate paint as shielding for work areas

[Charles Grasso]

Hello all,

We are considering the use of  pure silicate paint to shield a room,  Does
anyone have experience with using a paint like this in this sort of
application?. Obviously all the normal
rules apply for ensuring a contiguous bond - I have only a limited idea on
the difficulties that
requirement will entail!  FYI, the "spec" does not specify % by volume of
the solid content. I am guessing that 50-70% by volume should be sufficient
- does that make sense?

Thank you in advance!

-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] Job Posting

[Charles Grasso]

I saw it Patrick.

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 10:21 AM Patrick  wrote:

>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
> i'd like to post a job opening, but can't seem to get through.
>
> .. this is second attempt to get a message onto the forum.
> message sent yesterday not showing in my inbox...
>
> does anyone see a message from me, from yesterday, with a job posting?
>
> -Patrick
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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>

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RMCEMC December Social Event and Technical Presentation

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The officers of the RMCEMC are pleased to offer a special
meeting to end our season of technical presentations.
The meeting has three important features:

1)We are happy to offer Dr. Eric Bogatin who will analyse and
discuss a significant issue of EMC. 

2)We will also be raffling two copies of his book 
Signal Integrity - Simplified to two lucky attendees.

3) We will be offerring a complimentary buffet 
as part of the social evening.

For full details (such as the menu!) please go to
our website at http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thamk you
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC - Chair(elect)/Vice-Chair


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PCB Radiated Emissions paper available for download

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

In recent threads a paper by R. Dockey was recommended as
light reading. Unfortunately due to copyright reasons
this paper cannot be made freely available. However,
the basis of that paper - Asymmetrical Mode Radiation from
MultiLayer Printed Circuit Boards - has no such restrictions
and it can be downloaded from the RMCEMC website
 http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc .


This paper demonstrates that a simple trace over a ground plane 
can produce emissions that fail the FCC Class B specifications.
This paper was originally offered as a way to measure emissions.
The purpose of this was to answer the question:

I welcome measurements from others that supports the statement that traces
over planes are significant sources of EMI.  So far, no one has presented
such evidence.  Lacking such evidence, how can anyone make such claims?

and to offer a measurement methodology.This paper shows 
that changes in the dimensions of the structure
can and will affect the emissions profile.

Enjoy...

Charles Grasso
RMCEMC - Chair.




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EMC Society papers available on CD-ROM

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

A couple of papers demonstrating the emissions profiles of
microstrip lines have been referenced by myself and Larry 
Barnes. These papers, and many others on the same topic, are
available on CD-Rom from the EMC-Society. For details you may
go to http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc. 

Best Regards
Charles Grasso Chair RMCEMC Society


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RE: Job Opportunity - Maryland

[Charles Grasso]

Right on Ken!


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 4:43 PM
To: Bill Rea; Emc-Pstc
Subject: Re: Job Opportunity - Maryland



I think notifications of possible job opportunities are THE most important
function of this forum, if you happen to be out of work.  If that's not you.
count your blessings (as I am) and pay no heed.

 From: Bill Rea bill@pt.com
 Reply-To: Bill Rea bill@pt.com
 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:22:28 -0700
 To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject: RE: Job Opportunity - Maryland


 Is the an EMC forum or an HR forum?

 -Original Message-
 From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdoug...@ptcnh.net]
 Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 1:08 PM
 Cc: Emc-Pstc; Bryan Axmear
 Subject: Re: Job Opportunity - Maryland



 But then if I graduated from college when I was 35, the graduation time
 frame would make me 46 to 50 years old. So is this really an age
 criteria? Or maybe is this saying I want somebody that has a certain
 style of training of a type not given today? Or maybe is this saying I
 want someone with a certain length of experience therefore supposing a
 certain skill set acquired?

 Scott Douglas
 NARTE Certified
 Product Safety Engineer
 PS-02-NCE
 Email: sdoug...@ptcnh.net




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RMCEMC September Meeting slides available for download

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The presentation slides from our September meeting
are available for download from our website:
(http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc) . Be sure to look
at the bonus presentation slides.

Charles Grasso RMCEMC Chair.


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RE: need shielded cable

[Charles Grasso]

Hi Neven,

Yes - A shielded telcomm cable is the way to go I agree.


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
neve...@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:58 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: need shielded cable



Would a cable with four twisted pairs + shield work? If yes, you may
consider
CAT5 (5 twisted per inch) or CAT3 (3 twists per inch) shielded Ethernet
cable.
They come in AVG 24 and 26 sizes, stranded and colid, with foil and/or
braided
shield. I am not sure what manufacturer carries what types, but I have seen
all
sorts of them around - I hope you can foind it by doing Internet search.

Neven

 List Members,

 I am looking for a five conductor overall shielded cable.  The wires need
to
 be stranded and very small gauge, AWG 26 or smaller.  My customer is
 interested in a double-shielded configuration - braid on the outside, foil
 on the inside.

 I have had no success finding such a product.

 The application is such that I think that a cigarette wrap foil alone
would
 work, but I am concerned about its ruggedness; this product will be worn
by
 men at work.  Any suggestions pro/con on using a foil shield under such
 conditions, including how to terminate it gently but securely and
 peripherally?

 Thank you.

 Ken Javor


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RMCEMC August Presentation Download available

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The presentation slides and photos from our August
meeting Troubleshooting IC Package Noise are now
available for download. To get the slides please 
go to our website http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

**
The UMR EMC Course comes to Colorado

IALabs promotional offering
*
For full details please go to our website at
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thanks to Doug Smith for making this available.

Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Chair/Vice-Chair


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RMCEMC September Meeting Announcement

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:
The RMCEMC will be hosting Bud Hoeft who will discuss
A View of Electromagnetic Life above 100 MHz
(An Experimentalist’s Intuitive Approach)

For full details please go to our website at
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso (Chair/Vice Chair RMCEMC)



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RMCEMC Aug Meeting downloads and other offerings

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:
*8
Download instructions and photos from our August
meeting Troubleshooting IC Package Noise are now
available.


The UMR EMC Course comes to Colorado

IALabs promotional offering
*
For full details please go to our website at
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso (Chair/Vice Chair RMCEMC)


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Q. on Res Bandwith performace traceabiity

[Charles Grasso]

Greetings:

Does anyone know if the Resolution Bandwidth
filter performance is tracable to a given standard
and which standard that might be?

I was wondering if the rool-off after the 3dB points
is specificed as a standard for ALL analysers.

I am assuming that the anaswer is Yes as chaos 
would reign!!


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UMR EMC course comes to Colorado

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The University of Missouri-Rolla short course: 
Grounding, Shielding  Circuit Board Layout will be here in 
Colorado in September. Go to our website at:
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc for full details and
and mark your calenders!!

*BONUS*
Be sure to click on the IALabs logo for a promotional offer.
*

Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair


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RMCEMC August Meeting Reminder

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

This is to remind you of our August 28th meeting: IC Package Noise (or:
Other uses for a paper clip) presented by Doug Smith.

Please go to our website:http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc for full details.

Thank you
Charles Grasso RMCEMC Vice-Chair



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RE: Q on FCC and CISPR data

[Charles Grasso]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Thanks to all who helped me out!


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of jim.hulb...@pb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:53 AM
To: Charles Grasso
Cc: Emc-Pstc; owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Q on FCC and CISPR data



Charles,

Radiated emissions measurements to FCC Part 15 limits and conducted emissions
measurements to CISPR 22 limits is really NOT mixing and matching. FCC Part 15
conducted emissions limits have been modified in 15.107 to harmonize with the
CISPR 22 conducted emissions limits. The radiated emissions limits in 15.109
have remained the same as before. There is the OPTION to apply CISPR 22:1997
radiated emissions limits in the 30 MHz to 1GHz range instead of the limits
listed.

Jim Hulbert
Pitney Bowes

Inactive hide details for Charles Grasso ' src=cid:532300305@14082003-1232
width=16Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net




 




Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net
Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 

08/13/2003 12:37 AM
Please respond to Charles Grasso



To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@ieee.org
cc: 
Subject: Q on FCC and CISPR data



All,

In order to harmonize fully with the ROW,
the FCC has amended Part15 to include the
CISPR conducted limits with a transition
period. Heres my question: Can one now
mix and match limits? For example, I reviewed
a Class B report only to discover that the
radiated emissions were done to FCC (@3M)
and the conducted to CISPRB. Is this OK
and by that I mean legal. I don't like it:-
I think one selects the desired limits 
FCC or CISPR and tests all FCC or all CISPR.

Comments as always welcome (especially from
test houses)

Charles Grasso






graycol.gifecblank.gif

Q on FCC and CISPR data

[Charles Grasso]

All,

In order to harmonize fully with the ROW,
the FCC has amended Part15 to include the
CISPR conducted limits with a transition
period. Heres my question: Can one now
mix and match limits? For example, I reviewed
a Class B report only to discover that the
radiated emissions were done to FCC (@3M)
and the conducted to CISPRB. Is this OK
and by that I mean legal. I don't like it:-
I think one selects the desired limits 
FCC or CISPR and tests all FCC or all CISPR.

Comments as always welcome (especially from
test houses)

Charles Grasso


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RMCEMC July Meeting Download Pictures

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties,

The download instructions and pictures from the RMCEMC July meeting - Two 
Layer PCB Design,  are available on 
our website: http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair



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RE: Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser

[Charles Grasso]

This is getting pretty intense for a Sunday!!
Both Mr. Javor and Mr Novak make excellent
observations. Both center on the method of measurment
as a point of concern.

To measure the voltage ripple I used a high
badwidth (1GHz) sigle ended probe with very
short leads. In order to establish the error
margin, I used the null experiment technique.
(I don't have a diff probe with sufficient
bandwidth to hand).

I then used a piece of coax with very short
leads (just like Mr Javor recommends)
and a 50ohm resistor in series with the
signal to feed the same voltage ripple to
a SA. Clearly there is a voltage division here
but thats easily accounted for. My concern is that
the impedance of the planes is so much lower
than the 50ohm input of the SA and I wanted
to match that as much as possible.

I belive I have taken care of as much of the
measurement problem as possible.

Still, the maximum voltages between the two
measurments do not come close at all.





From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:27 AM
To: istvan novak; Charles Grasso; Emc-Pstc
Subject: Re: Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser



Mr. Novak makes some excellent points.  I was under the assumption that the
phrase voltage ripple implied conducted emission measurements at a LISN
port.  Hence my comments on mode separation.  Across a spectrum of even 30
MHz, any normal scope probe I know of (1 or 10 M Ohm in parallel with
5/10/20 pF) will present a varying load to the measured waveform.   I know
there are some broadband active differential probes with low shunt capacity,
but I have no experience using them.  The scope should be made to look like
a flat 50 Ohm load to help correlate to a spectrum analyzer.  Instead of
using long leads to make measurements from one point of the Vcc plane to
another, I would make coaxial measurements from one point on the Vcc plane
to chassis ground or the reference/image plane if one exists, and then make
the same measurement at another point on the Vcc plane, and compare the
waveforms, perhaps using a built-in math function if your scope has that.
Of course this technique requires the reference/image plane/chassis ground
to be an equipotential plane...

By coaxial measurement I mean using coax rather than a scope probe, and
terminating the shield at the reference point, while extending the center
conductor just far enough to connect to the point of interest on the Vcc
plane.  Theoretically, an even better technique would be to have a place on
the board where the power plane reference was available circumferentially
around a Vcc via, and connect the coax shield to the reference plane and the
center conductor to the Vcc contact.  Given a 50 Ohm load at the other end
(with a blocking cap to protect it), and an FFT capability with enough
memory, I believe you could achieve correlation with the individual spectral
components measured by a spectrum analyzer (which of course would also need
a blocking cap with this config).


 From: istvan novak istvan.no...@worldnet.att.net
 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:02:02 -0400
 To: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net, Ken Javor
 ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, Emc-Pstc emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject: Re: Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser

 Charles,

 Doing this kind of correlation is very difficult for the following
reasons:
 - unless you measure a very simple and dummy system, hardware today is
 so complex that you cant predict for sure its activity; it is a strong
 function
 of time.
 -tThe spectrum analyzer and scope will look at the same signal
 in different ways: analog spectrum analyzers have a seep time and settling
 time determining the frequency and aperture of visit each frequency.
 If you have a spectrumn analyzer used for compliance tests,
 probably the CISPR filter is on.  Scopes on the other hand (digital
scopes)
 undersample the signal, whether it is called real-time or not.  Memory
 and displey refresh rate does not allow scopes to display and process all
 data points of high-frequency signals.  Real-time scopes do it for a
 given time window, but it is usually way less than the time constant of
 a CISPR filter on the spectrum analyzer.
 - connection to the source makes a big difference.  I assume when you
 calibrated the reading with a sine wave, a coaxial cable with coax
 connectors
 at both ends was used.  Presumably the product does not have a coaxial
 connector on the Vcc plane, so you have to make your own connection or
 use a hand-held probe.  This is very extra noise usually gets in the path,
 and
 the scope reading becomes unrealistically high.  I have found no active
 scope probes so far, which would give a correct reading in a noisy
 environment.
 We hopefully should not see noise on the Vcc planes more than a few
 hundred mV.  In contrast, many scope probes can pick up spikes as big as
 volts from the environment

RE: Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser

[Charles Grasso]

Hi all,

Actually I was using a good ole Spectrim Analyser
so I sidestepped the windowing issue/software issues
altogether.

What I was(am)trying to do was match the max voltage
as measured on a scope with the value as measured
on a SA.

I first calibrated myslef using a known source - a sine wave.
The amplitudes fell in just as theory predicted. Encouraged,
I then probed the Vcc plane on a product I was working on
and was not so happy!!

Any ideas?


From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:19 PM
To: Charles Grasso; Emc-Pstc
Subject: Re: Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser


I presented a paper on that very subject about a decade ago at one of the
EMC TD magazine EMC symposia.  I used a Fluke Scopemeter and some FFT
software that came with it.  The Fluke interfaced to the PC through an
optically isolated RS-232 protocol.  It worked quite well from a
pre-compliance or troubleshooting point-of-view.  You could use time
windowing to separate the signals deriving from leading and falling edges
from the signals deriving from the pulse itself.  I used LISNMATE and
LISNMARK mode separation devices to show that the rising/falling edge
signals were common mode, while the pulse itself generated differential mode
signals.

 From: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net
 Reply-To: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net
 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:18:36 -0700
 To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject: Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser


 Hi All,


 Has anyone tried correlating the voltage ripple
 as seen on a scope with the amplitudes measured
 on a Spectrum Analyser?

 I tried doing that the other day with ..umm. minimal
 success. I think that due to the comples convoltions
 that would have to occur when FFT'ing an irregular
 voltage shape.

 Charles Grasso
 Echostar Communications.

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Q on Correlation of Votage ripple with a Spectrum Analyser

[Charles Grasso]

Hi All,


Has anyone tried correlating the voltage ripple 
as seen on a scope with the amplitudes measured 
on a Spectrum Analyser?

I tried doing that the other day with ..umm. minimal
success. I think that due to the comples convoltions
that would have to occur when FFT'ing an irregular
voltage shape.

Charles Grasso
Echostar Communications.


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RE: Boston Symposium

[Charles Grasso]

I'll be the one with the white carnation..


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
neve...@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:41 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Boston Symposium



Group,

I'm just curious to know if the Boston EMC Symposium would be a good
opportunity to connect the email IDs with the faces. We might try to fill
some
pub or brewery, if anyone is intereted :)

If there is enough interest, and if someone is familiar with the place (I am
not), he/she may just pick a place and time (not to interfere with the
Symposium events) and we may see how many will show up.

?

Neven


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RE: Reverberation Chamber

[Charles Grasso]

Hi Bob,

Galen Koepke from NIST in Boulder is heading
research in this area. I Tried (with KenJavor)
to turn a large shield room into a emissions facility.
The not so obvious con is that you get NO directional
or polarization (if I remember right) info at all so
debugging can be problematical. 

Chas


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 6:11 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Reverberation Chamber



Can someone point me in the direction of a company or information on
constructing a reverberation (mode-stirred) chamber. We would like to use
it as a precompliant diagnostic facility/resource. Any experience using
one? Pros? Cons?

Thanks,
Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===



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RMCEMC July meeting announcement

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

This is to announce the July meeting of the RMCEMC.
We are featuring Dr. Keith Hardin of Lexmark who will
discuss: Two-layer PCB EMC Design Techniques.

For more information visit our website at
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you

Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair


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RE: cable maximization - do you or don't you??

[Charles Grasso]

Hi Ken,

Ahh the emissions analogy to the immunity tests? Hey - why not?
After all there are plenty of conditions that arise NOT as an
EUT problem but rather the artifical test environment that
we use - i.e the OATS. We could then properly use a CALC
without worrying about the cable radiation per se.

Otts equation (derived from Banalis) is pretty accurate to
half a wave length - the trick is what do you do after that?
(Actually we have developed a correction factor here at
Echostar..stay tuned..)


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 8:29 AM
To: Charles Grasso; Emc-Pstc; charles.gra...@echostar.com
Subject: Re: cable maximization - do you or don't you??



An excellent opportunity to ask a question of list members, especially those
involved in standards writing.

Why not calculate the cable conducted emission that would result in radiated
spec level compliance, and levy a cable conducted emission requirement?

Then OATS testing would not require cable manipulation, and any out of spec
conditions would result from test sample enclosure emissions.

 From: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net
 Reply-To: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net
 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:53:40 -0700
 To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@ieee.org, charles.gra...@echostar.com
 Subject: cable maximization - do you or don't you??


 Hi all,

 I have recently run into an issue with an OEM
 supplier. The product that we are looking at
 fails emissions after cable maximization.
 In an informal study, I discovered that quite
 a few labs don't seem to perform cable maximization
 on a routine basis. ANSIC63 is quite clear on this
 - the cables need to be maximized.

 Is cable maximization a thing of the past - to
 be written out - and test labs are maximizing
 throughput rather than cables OR is is something
 I should continue to insist on??

 Comments will be gratefully accepted.
 Charles Grasso
 EchoStar Communicationa

 ---
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cable maximization - do you or don't you??

[Charles Grasso]

Hi all,

I have recently run into an issue with an OEM
supplier. The product that we are looking at
fails emissions after cable maximization.
In an informal study, I discovered that quite
a few labs don't seem to perform cable maximization
on a routine basis. ANSIC63 is quite clear on this
- the cables need to be maximized.

Is cable maximization a thing of the past - to
be written out - and test labs are maximizing
throughput rather than cables OR is is something
I should continue to insist on??

Comments will be gratefully accepted.
Charles Grasso
EchoStar Communicationa


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RMCEMC June meeting available for download

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The RMCEMC June meeting:

EMC Design Considerations for Military Systems 
Utilizing High Speed Commercial Interfaces Such 
As USB, Firewire, 100 BaseT, DUI and SERDES

is available from our website http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Just a friendly reminder: If you're looking for an earlier
presentation click on the Archives link. Good hunting
to you.

Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair


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RE: Bad Fuse vs. Good Fuse

[Charles Grasso]

Seems to me - a bad fuse is open. Simple as that.


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of POWELL, DOUG
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 4:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail)
Subject: Bad Fuse vs. Good Fuse


Hello all,
 
Recently, in my company, we've been discussing what exactly constitutes a good
or bad fuse.  In this industry we often hear that the trouble with a defective
product was, the fuse was bad.  I occurred to me that the fuse is not bad,
it performed exactly intended.  In fact if the problem that caused the fuse to
operate is still present, then the fuse is still good even though it is now
an open circuit.  The only time it can be a bad fuse is if it did not operate,
resulting in shock or a fire.
 
I have now have my ears tuned-in to this concept of a bad fuse and find it
is commonly used all over the industry.  In fact you can go to any number of
websites that provide trouble shooting notes, and find instructions on how you
can measure a bad fuse from a good fuse using an Ohm meter, photos included. 
And some of these instructions are from reputable manufacturers.  Another term
often used is defective fuse, which in some way sounds more scientific, but
is still fundamentally wrong.
 
I recently saw a newspaper article that gave the explaination why electrical
service was lost for over 100,000 people as a bad fuse.  An investigation was
under way to determine why the fuse went bad.  This is a little like hearing
the technologically uninitiated say it must be a short somewhere, when the
television set stops working.
 
Maybe I am finicky, but this affects how companies view real product defects. 
When the defect is the bad fuse, then the real problem may be covered up. 
Often the answer is, increase the fuse size to prevent nuisance trips.  The
risk, of course, is that for every incremental increase in fuse value, you
increase the risk of fire proportionally.
 
Any thoughts or experiences?
 
BTW - To all US citizens in the group, have a relaxing Memorial Day weekend.
 
 
-doug
 
Douglas E. Powell 
Regulatory Compliance Engineer 
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. 
Fort Collins, CO 80535 USA 

___
This message, including any attachments, may contain information
that is confidential and proprietary information of Advanced 
Energy Industries, Inc.  The dissemination, distribution, use 
or copying of this message or any of its attachments is 
strictly prohibited without the express written consent of 
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.

RMCEMC Meeting reminder

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:
The RMCEMC is pleased to announce a bonus 
meeting for our May schedule. On May 13th
Lee Hill from Silent Solutions will present:
Signal Integrity/EMI Challenges  Design Solutions - A Seminar
Please go to our website at http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Senior Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications Corp.
Tel:  303-706-5467
Fax: 303-799-6222
Cell: 303-204-2974
Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com;  
Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org


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RE: OK, what's going on?

[Charles Grasso]

John - Agreed.
But I would pose the question. If we can demonstrate that products are on
the market place - legitimatley - that FAIL by upwards of 20dB what
direction would you go in:

a) Status quo
b) relaxation of the limits
c) elemination of the limits

Just wondering
Chas


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 12:02 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: OK, what's going on?



I read in !emc-pstc that Mark Kirincic mkirin...@houston.rr.com wrote
(in 091001c2f4dd$85c69910$6501a8c0@kristina2005) about 'OK, what's
going on?' on Thu, 27 Mar 2003:

In my opinion, what really needs to be done is full accountability for
failed
products that the company by having the company name made public at the FCC
and
CE websites and trade journals.  Also have the companies pay for audits of
all
the units that are in the country that fail to meet FCC and CE standards.
What
I am saying is to charge a flat fee per unit that fails.  Secondly, I
would
prevent them form selling into a market segment if the audit shows non
compliance of multiple units.  Have the company provide future proof of
compliance before shipping which will hurt them in their pocket book a lot
more
than just a simple fine.

Can you produce a justification for such Draconian measures? Economic
damage or risk to human life comparable with the penalties you propose?
Remember, every penalty you apply to a company ends up with either its
employees losing their jobs or its customers paying higher prices.  So,
who would benefit from your proposals, apart from test-houses?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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RE: OK, what's going on?

[Charles Grasso]

Hi Ken,
 
I remember that thread. I think I even started it!!
There is no way that FCC + FCC = FCC but the 
current rules and regs allow that to happen.
 
its no surprise that Derek is finding PCs that fail.
 
Question to Derek: Do the PCs have the infamous
assembled from FCC compliant components
label??


From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:19 PM
To: lfresea...@aol.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: OK, what's going on?


All,

I would suggest a little literature survey and analysis before approaching the
FCC.  Answers to the following questions would be helpful to have in hand
before approaching authorities:

What bands were the outages in?  I don't mean a list of frequencies vs. dB
above limit, but outage frequencies vs. spectrum usage.  If not many people
are trying to use the spectrum where the outages occur, then you don't get
many complaints.  For instance, the broadcast television band extends from
54-87 MHz, and then picks up again from 174-216, and then from 470-890, except
maybe the cell bands overlap the last part nowadays.  But how many people in
fringe TV reception areas in the USA are still trying to receive broadcast,
vs. satellite or cable distribution?  How many of this subset would operate
their PC and also need their TV to receive on a channel that encompasses a
problem frequency?  The FCC responds to consumer complaints, or the potential
for such.  If the answers to these questions fall a certain way, it might make
more sense to relax the limits...

Related to the above: What does 20 dB above the limit mean?  Look at the
derivation of FCC Class A/B RE limits and it is tied to received signal
quality.  But how far are you from a transmitter before the broadcast signal
is low enough that a 20 dB outage would cause a problem?

Finally, I know Derek and am fully confident he is making accurate
measurements, and is smart enough to differentiate an ambient from an
EUT-sourced signal.  But what anyone needs to know, before running to the FCC,
is what is the configuration of the PC you tested, relative to the golden
unit that was qualified to Class B.  How did the design change between
qualification and mass production?  How many vendor changes were made, how
many vendors changed parts but didn't change part numbers? I think this is
most likely the root of the problem, but you will find the FCC very unwilling
to crack down here, because the implication of enforcing this level of
configuration control would be to kill the PC peripheral market.  There was a
thread here some time ago, about FCC + FCC = FCC?  It is a very real EMC
problem, but the economic forces here are very strong.

I think that all these issues need to be addressed before making a case to the
FCC.  I don't believe the test houses are the weak link.
-- 

Ken Javor
EMC Compliance
Huntsville, Alabama
256/650-5261





on 3/25/03 3:05 PM, lfresea...@aol.com at lfresea...@aol.com wrote:



Hi all,

This e-mail has been prompted because of a number of things that have all come
together. This may take a little reading, but please stick with it.

Last note... this is not intended to pick on any individuals, or organization,
but I do want to stir the pot.

I operate an engineering lab, helping clients harden their designs to meet EMC
requirements. In this particular instance, I was working for a small client,
on a card  that goes in the PC . In order to test I need a host PC. So, to
save money, the card maker supplies 2 clones.

Neither of the two PCs passed emissions testing with the card, in fact, above
100 MHz, they fail even the Class A limit: badly! So, before calling my
client, I pull his card, the PC is no different, I pull the monitor, then the
keyboard, then the mouse... No different.  I test just the PC chassis one at a
time. On their own, booted and then the peripherals removed. Not even close to
passing.

Disgruntled, I get my office PC... Fail. I get my kids PC.. over 20 dB over
the limit!

So, I think so much for clones... I buy 2 Dell ( sorry, no point trying to
hide names... ) desktops, both fail, quite badly. However, they have very
similar noise profiles...

Can 5 PC's all fail? I think my measuring system is set -up wrong. So I verify
this. I am within 1 dB of what I expect when I inject a signal from a signal
generator and account for antenna factors.

Here lies the question: why can I not find a PC that passes? Worse, since they
don't pass, who is chasing them down to enforce the requirements? I'm unhappy,
because I am taking a clients money to make him meet the requirements, when it
seems no one else is.

Now, what's making this worse for me, is that I am an EMC Lab assessor. So, I
go to labs and make them jump through hoops so that they produce, as
consistently as possible, data the characterizes a product. Exercises, like
those performed by USCEL, show that labs can have very consistent results.

RE: OK, what's going on?

[Charles Grasso]

So the next obvious question is: Are the majority of
the PC failures clones??


From: lfresea...@aol.com [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 7:32 PM
To: cgrassospri...@earthlink.net; ken.ja...@emccompliance.com;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: OK, what's going on?


In a message dated 3/25/2003 8:28:40 PM Central Standard Time,
cgrassospri...@earthlink.net writes:




Question to Derek: Do the PCs have the infamous
assembled from FCC compliant components
label??




The clones do, the others do not.

Little more news.. 2 laptops, an older Micron, 350 MHz, looks good. Brand new
Prostar 2.8 GHz, looks good...

If I could only get my PCI card in a laptop!

Cheers,

Derek. 

IEEE Presentation download

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The presentations from the RMCEMC speakers
at the IEEE Technical Symposium are now available
for download at http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair


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RMCEMC Presentation download

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The presenation slides from the RMCEMC
February Bonus Meeting are available
for download from our website:
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Enjoy

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Vice-Chair ( Technical Program)
RMCEMC 


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RMCEMC Bonus February meeting

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The RMCEMC is having a bonus February meeting:

Presenter:  Colin Brench, HP Principal Member of technical Staff (Bio)

Date :Feb 5th 2003

Location :   Front Range Community College, Westminster Colorado. Room
Timberline (S117)

Times :5:30 -6:30 Social Hour at the Community College Cafeteria.
6:45 : Assemble at the room
7:00- 9:00 Presentations

What we will see: 1) Antenna Behavior and Use - (What Really goes on during
a test?!
2) Understanding EMI Shield Behavior in Real Product 
Environments

Please go to our website: http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc for full details

Thank you
Charles Grasso
Vice-Chair



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RMCEMC January Meeting Announcement

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The January Meeting will be:Power Supply Decoupling - How 'bout them vias?

Presenter:  T.J. (Bill) Ritenour
Date :  January 23 2003
Location :  Front Range Community College, Westminster Colorado. Room
Timberline (S117)
Times : 5:30 -6:30 Social Hour at the Community College Cafeteria.
6:45 : Assemble at the room
7:00- 8:00 Presentation

For full information please go to our website: http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair



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Presentation available for download

[Charles Grasso]

Greetings to all interested parties:

The November presentation of the RMCEMC:

Signal Integrity Design versus Radiated Emission Control by Dr Cheung-Wei
Lam is available for
download at our website http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair



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Presentation available for download November Meeting

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The presentation slides of our October meeting:
Computer Simulation for System Level EMC Control
is available for download from our web site http:/www.ieee.org/rmcemc . Go
to the link Last Meeting.

Also we would like to announce our November meeting:

Signal Integrity Design versus Radiated Emission Control.

All details are available on our website:
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank You
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair


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RMCEMC October Meeting

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The RMCEMC Society's October meeting will be:

Computer Simulation for System Level EMC Design by Dr Fred German of
Flomerics.

Go to our website: http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc for full details

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Vice-Chair


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Reminder: Sep Meeting of RMCEMC

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The September meeting of the RMCEMC IEEE Society is:

The Mysteries of Grounding on Tuesday, September 17, at
the Courtyard by Mariott in Louisville, CO from
7:00pm to 8:00pm. The speaker will be Daryl Gerke of 
Kimmel Gerke Associates.

For more details please go to our website at
www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair

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September meeting of RMCEMC EMC Society

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

The September meeting of the RMCEMC IEEE Society is:

The Mysteries of Grounding on Tuesday, September 17, at
the Courtyard by Mariott in Louisville, CO from
7:00pm to 8:00pm. The speaker will be Daryl Gerke of 
Kimmel Gerke Associates.

For more details please go to our website at
www.ieee.org/rmcemc

Thank you
Charles Grasso
RMCEMC Vice-Chair


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RE: Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions

[Charles Grasso]

Actually Chris there was a product that provided for
a solder mask then had a conductive film ontop of that.
The manufacturers could also tie this outer skin to the
grounds on the printed circuit boord finally making the
Faraday cage !!

Papers I have read on this showed an excellent reduction
in emissions (20dB) - neglecting the effects of the ICs
I know that AMP used to market this but it did not seem to
achieve markey acceptance.

Charles Grasso



From: Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com
Reply-To: Chris Chileshe chris.chile...@ultronics.com
To: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:21:55 +0100


Mat,

Can we assume you mean conductive spray coatings for plastic
caseworks? Wouldn't a conductive conformal coating would short
out all the components on the PCB? Or is a two-pass technology
with the ordinary insulating coating over the components and a
conductive layer on the outside?

Awaiting your clarification.

- Regards

- Chris

-Original Message-
From:   Aschenberg, Mat [SMTP:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:36 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject:Conductive Conformal Coatings for reducing PCB Emissions


Hi All,
A while back there was a push to use conductive conformal
coatings for PCB emissions. Does anyone know if the
technology still exists and if so who makes it??

Thanks



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RE: IEC 61000-4-2 ESD 61000-4-5 Surge lower levels

[Charles Grasso]

Hi - Quite a while ago, in the 80's I think
W.M King published some papers that demonstrated the
differences in the ESD waveforms in rise times as the
voltage increased. So an ESD pulse of 2kV would occupy
a wider spectral bandwidth than a 15kV pulse. Whats
important to realize, is that he performed the measurements
by charging the ESD gun and approaching the target. So the series 
impedance of the discharge at the higher voltages

(much less at the lower voltages) tended to slow
the rise time. David, I would postulate that the reason you
haven't seen this effect is because of the new approach
to ESD testing: that is for direct discharges the ESDgun is
intimately contact to the product BEFORE apply the discharge.
This was done to minimize test variabilities.

Chas



From: Pommerenke, David davi...@ece.umr.edu
Reply-To: Pommerenke, David davi...@ece.umr.edu
To: Scott Douglas dougl...@naradnetworks.com,   
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

Subject: RE: IEC 61000-4-2 ESD  61000-4-5 Surge lower levels
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:33:57 -0500

Dear Scott,

(1)
I have looked at quite a bit of literature that plots

   Failure propatibility   vs.  Stress level in contact mode like testing

and have seen very few none-monotonic EUTs that show the none-monotonic 
behavior over a larger voltage range.


(2)
In my five year test practise at HP, I have only seen one EUT that failed 
at lower levels and passed at higher levels in contact mode.



If you have data that showsAs others have said, I have seen numerous 
failures at less than the maximum required test voltage while the same 
system passes at the max required voltage. please share that data with me 
if it is in contact mode and if the number of discharges at each level is 
large enough to obtain an acceptable confidence level.


Regards

   David Pommerenke




[Pommerenke, David]  -Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:dougl...@naradnetworks.com]
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 4:46 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: IEC 61000-4-2 ESD  61000-4-5 Surge lower levels



David,

I disagree with you here. As others have said, I have seen numerous 
failures at less than the maximum required test voltage while the same 
system passes at the max required voltage. It seems to me the intent was / 
is / should be to verify product performance up to a maximum level, not 
just at that level. The logic here would be that the standards writing 
group would make the test cover reasonable ground up to some limit because 
it is quite common that anything up to that limit could happen. The reason 
for the limit is because it is uncommon for things larger / higher than the 
limit to happen. Contact discharge is the only way to make reliable and 
repeatable tests for ESD. No approach speed issues, etc. So testing at low 
levels and working up to a maximum limit is a reasonable test method.


On the other hand, I find air discharge to be a difficult and not very 
repeatable test to do which causes me to question its usefulness. Yes, I 
agree that people interacting with products will more often see air 
discharge rather than contact discharge. But I also find it impossible to 
reliably repeat air discharge test results. The old approach speed, 
distance and coordinates of contact point issue. Until someone can make an 
automated air discharge tester that keeps human interactions out of the 
process, I can't see it being corrected. That said, testing at lower levels 
is just as necessary here.


Regards,
Scott Douglas


Senior Compliance Engineer
Narad Networks
515 Groton Road
Westford, MA 01886
office:  978 589-1869
cell: 978-239-0693
dougl...@naradnetworks.com
www.naradnetworks.com http://www.naradnetworks.com/

At 08:36 AM 6/10/02 -0500, Pommerenke, David wrote:




Dear Group,

For most EUTs there is no need to do lower level testing in contact mode 
ESD. The time is better spend (meaning a better test results uncertainty is 
achieved) if the number of discharges is increased at the highest test 
level (hundreds is a good number). Although it is possible that a system 
fails at e.g., 2 kV contact mode (e.g., incomplete reset) and passes at 4 
kV contact mode (full self-recovering quick reset) the likelyhood of that 
happening is not that large to require it in a standard.


For air discharge lower level testing is needed, as the risetime is often 
much lower at lower voltages. Of course, if no discharge occurs, no further 
testing at even lower levels makes sense.


I do know that what I am saying violates the present IEC 61000-4-2 
standard. ut it reflects the coming version of IEC 61000-4-2. The standard 
does not intend to protect agains every possible ESD failure.


I would like to receive your input, as I am one of the US-representatives 
in IEC TC77b WG-9 (ESD).


David Pommerenke











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Experienced EMC/SI Engineer seeking employment

[Charles Grasso]

Hi all,

Well - it had to happen eventually and it just did to me!!
The division I was working for got decimated and I was
laid off.

If anyone knows of any openings for an experienced EMC
Engineer can you please contact me off line so that I
can forward my resume.??

Thanks

Charles Grasso
(still) EMC Engineer.


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Re: SV: ITE Class A vs B Emissions

[Charles Grasso]

Isn't there a another gotcha?
I recall a connection between with the Class A
emissions being coupled to the Heavy Industrial
Immunity standard.

My old company shipped with Class A emissions and
024 as the immunity. We based our decision on our
installed base prior to the EU having acceptable
EM performance.




From: am...@westin-emission.no
Reply-To: am...@westin-emission.no
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: SV: ITE Class A vs B Emissions
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:29:30 +0100


From chapter 4.1 in CISPR 22:1997: Class B ITE is intended primarily for
use in the domestic environment and my include: - equipment with no fixed
place of use; for example, portable equipment powered by built-in
batteries; - telecommunication terminal equipment powered by a
telecommunication network; - personal computers and auxiliary connected
equipment

From chapter 4.2 in CISPR 22:1997: Class A ITE is a category of all other
ITE which satisfies the class A ITE limits but no the class B ITE limits.
Such equipment should not be restricted in its sale but the following
warning shall be included in the instructions for use:
WARNING - This is a class A product. In a domestic environment this product
may cause radio interference in which case the user may be required to take
adequate measures.

So, you have the possibility to go for Class A. But I also recall that may
test laboratories / notified body classifies class A as a heavy industrial
environment. Business/office environment are often classified as
residential, commercial and light industrial and therefore class B.


Amund


-Opprinnelig melding-
Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av
richwo...@tycoint.com
Sendt: 4. februar 2002 22:40
Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Emne: ITE Class A vs B Emissions



We currently design our products to comply with the Class B emissions 
limits

of EN 55022, but I am getting a lot of pressure from engineering to allow
the limits to be raised to Class A. The equipment is intended for business
use only. I understand that Class A is legal in the EU for business
equipment, and our customers don't seem to understand or care if the
equipment is Class A or B.

So, the question is this - Are you successful in marketing your business 
ITE

as Class A?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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RE: ITE Class A vs B Emissions

[Charles Grasso]

Hi - I must ask:
Has the CE+CE=CE idea been adopted?
If so then the discussion on emissions levels is moot
as non-compliant products are being released on
the market place anyway.




From: CE-TEST cet...@cetest.nl
Reply-To: CE-TEST cet...@cetest.nl
To: am...@westin-emission.no, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: ITE Class A vs B Emissions
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:22:36 +0100



For export to Europe:

The CISPR22 Class A limits are equal to the
ones for Generic heavy Industrial equipment.
Using (not selling) CISPR22 Class A equipment
in a residential or light industrial equipment
may very well be contrary to the essential
requirements of the EMC directive and the
CISPR22/EN55022 Class A limits may not automatically
create presumption of compliance with them.
This may lead to prosecution if your
equipment is causing interference and is
being checked by the authorities.
I do not say the risk is very high, but this clause
in the EN55022 has already drawn attention from the EC
EMC consultant as being different from the
generic class system, and may be modified in the future.
 (in spite of CENELEC objections).

For now selling and using Class A ITE is allowed,
but *I* would not rely on that for future developments.



Gert Gremmen


-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
am...@westin-emission.no
Sent: dinsdag 5 februari 2002 9:30
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: SV: ITE Class A vs B Emissions



From chapter 4.1 in CISPR 22:1997: Class B ITE is intended primarily for
use in the domestic environment and my include: - equipment with no fixed
place of use; for example, portable equipment powered by built-in
batteries; - telecommunication terminal equipment powered by a
telecommunication network; - personal computers and auxiliary connected
equipment

From chapter 4.2 in CISPR 22:1997: Class A ITE is a category of all 
other

ITE which satisfies the class A ITE limits but no the class B ITE limits.
Such equipment should not be restricted in its sale but the following
warning shall be included in the instructions for use:
WARNING - This is a class A product. In a domestic environment this product
may cause radio interference in which case the user may be required to take
adequate measures.

So, you have the possibility to go for Class A. But I also recall that may
test laboratories / notified body classifies class A as a heavy industrial
environment. Business/office environment are often classified as
residential, commercial and light industrial and therefore class B.


Amund


-Opprinnelig melding-
Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av
richwo...@tycoint.com
Sendt: 4. februar 2002 22:40
Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Emne: ITE Class A vs B Emissions



We currently design our products to comply with the Class B emissions 
limits

of EN 55022, but I am getting a lot of pressure from engineering to allow
the limits to be raised to Class A. The equipment is intended for business
use only. I understand that Class A is legal in the EU for business
equipment, and our customers don't seem to understand or care if the
equipment is Class A or B.

So, the question is this - Are you successful in marketing your business 
ITE

as Class A?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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Re: EN 50141 and EN 61000-4-6

[Charles Grasso]

I had to laugh when I saw the comparison between
EMC and dentistry...How appropriate..!!




From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
Reply-To: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 50141 and EN 61000-4-6
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:32:29 +

I read in !emc-pstc that CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and
more... cet...@cetest.nl wrote (in ABEJKCKDFONELAIPOFHNOEILEMAA.cetes
t...@cetest.nl) about 'EN 50141 and EN 61000-4-6', on Mon, 14 Jan 2002:

If I would not advocate testing I would be a
bad entrepreneur/ If I would recommend clearly
unnecessary testing I would loose customers.

I was *extremely* careful not to suggest otherwise. My concern is that,
in some cases, the customers don't have enough knowledge to determine
what is even 'clearly' unnecessary.'

The same is true for dentists curing your dents.

Pardon? (;-)

Did YOU actually check every hole in your teeth
really existed ?

Yes, as it happens.

 Or did you never go to the
dentist because no authority demands it. ;))

Also yes. I am lucky to have extraordinarily resistant enamel on my
teeth, and have to visit the dentist only at intervals of many years, in
spite of being encouraged by them to do so every six months.

It is the difference between good and bad test houses
to help selecting test suites for unknowing customers
(!??!) that other otherwise choose for
short time gains and long time losses.

Again, I was careful to say that as well.

And, as you should know, testing costs are important
for very small companies only.

I don't agree, not because you are necessarily wrong but because many
larger companies themselves don't agree. Yes, my interests lie mostly
with SMEs, but I have advised very large companies and they are by no
means complacent about testing costs.

Costs for EMC serial production
etc. are neglect able  if designed in, from the start.

This is true for *large volume products*, like TV sets. But it is not
applicable to a large company that makes, for example, a very wide range
of professional-use products, each of which is made in quantities not
exceeding 1000 or so.

The gain from compliant equipment in terms of quality,
product life time and need for service can easily
be much higher then all testing suites I can imagine.

I don't see how EMC conformity affects 'quality', life time and need for
service.

And there is much more to test than only EMC !

Of curse, safety has to be included, and safety conformity MAY affect
'quality' and 'need for service'. Product life-time is mostly determined
by market forces (fashion and/or new versions of Windows) rather than
technical end-of-life.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. 
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero.

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RE: Comparing EMI test results

[Charles Grasso]

I agree absolutely with Brent. Also, even if ALL the other variables
are STRICTLY controlled you could conciveably get as much
as 8 db variation between sites.

I suggest ( as Brent has already done) getting Lowell
Kolbs paper on site comparisons.



From: Brent DeWitt bdew...@ix.netcom.com
Reply-To: Brent DeWitt bdew...@ix.netcom.com
To: Rao, Praveen praveen@fujitsu.com.au, 
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

Subject: RE: Comparing EMI test results
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:46:22 -0700


Rao,

The comb generator is not a bad choice, but a few things should be checked
(yes, I've done this).

First, establish the base variation in the source.  No antenna, just a
direct connection to the receiver/SA that you will use for the evaluation
under an expected, reasonable variation in temperature and battery
condition.  Take enough samples over enough days to make yourself
statistically comfortable with the level of uncertainty you're targeting.

Second, use the volumetric calibration procedure (as required for
alternative test facilities) on both the SAC _and_ the OATS.  Having done
volumetric NSAs on high quality SACs and low quality OATS, I can say there
is _no_ reason the OATS can be considered a gold standard in all
instances.

Lowell Kolb of Hewlett-Packard did an excellent paper on comparison of OATS
sites a few years back.  I would suggest looking up his paper for an idea 
of

OATS site to site variation.

Lastly, everything I've just said will, most likely, be totally swamped by
variations in the EUT setup under real EUT testing unless you can
_strictly_ control them.  Don't go there.  The more real the simulated 
EUT
becomes, the more variables you introduce into the site evaluation.  As 
more

variables are introduced, the greater the number of data points will be
required to resolve the result.  While it is obvious to the most casual
observer that the simple comb generator does not represent a real EUT, it
does represent a single frequency component at a single phase component for
each of the volumetric measurement points.  The best work done in this area
has used a VNA for evaluation of both quantities, but from the literature,
this would appear to be most useful in diagnostic applications.
Empirically, if the magnitude of the seven single planar volumetric points
looks good, the site is _probably_ pretty good.  Of course, if the SA is
systematically off at all points, check the antenna calibration!

Best regards,

Brent DeWitt

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Rao, Praveen
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:16 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Comparing EMI test results





I'm trying to setup a programme to compare test results (for
Radiated Emissions) between test labs. The plan is to circulate a
Artifact around the labs and compare the results. The test sites being
compared are Semi-anechoic Chambers v/s OATS. The source used is a
wideband RF comb generator. I would like to understand the concept
fully before I initiate this programme. Is there any information readily
available on this topic? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Praveen



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Car Radio question resolved!!

[Charles Grasso]

Hi All,
I just thought I would update you all on the resolution
to my problem. It turns out that, due to the fact that
I have the antenna in the glass, there is a booster that
needed to be connected. Once connected - bingo - all
works fine.



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Something a little different - Car Radio question

[Charles Grasso]

Hello all,

Well Xmas has come and gone and I got a nice new car stereo
for Christmas. I dutifully went up to Best Buy - had it installed
only to be informed that I can no longer receive AM.  I happen
to enjoy AM radio so this was a bit of a blow. I inquired as
to what the possible cause might be and the answer I got was..
Some cars do this.. which is no answer at all. My car has an
antenna in the windshield and the original radio worked
just fine. I am a little confused soI thought I would ask the
expert EMC community for ideas. ANyone want to hazard a guess as to
what is going on??

Chas

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RE: FW: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals - 2

[Charles Grasso]

Hi Dan,

No arguement here.

My point is that IF the regulatory agencies
allow ( however inadvertantly) products on
the market place that fail then the message
managers get is that it can't be that
important.

Incidentally it is my understanding that the
FCC Class B procedures have resulted in PC that
exceed the ClassB spec by as much as 20db.





From: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
Reply-To: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
To: Charles Grasso chasgra...@hotmail.com, 
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

Subject: RE: FW: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:15:43 -0800


Charles,

I would like to offer an explanation for EMC limits being set where they 
are
and a reason for meeting or beating the limits. I agree, 0.5 dB doesn't 
seem

like the end of the world and under management guidance/pressure to ship
product and produce revenue, it takes a lot of conviction to announce that
an additional turn or some tweaking of the design is required.

Those who have ever supplied avionics or anything electric to Boeing have
read somewhere in the spec that Boeing guarantees a certain level of
performance from the aircraft electrical system. Frequency stability, THC,
Voltage tolerance, etc. GREAT NEWS ! think the designers, until later in 
the

spec they read the part about the stringent requirements on the box going
into the airplane. It seems you can't have clean power without having clean
boxes.

The EMC limits in the standards are derived with some exceptions more or
less along the limits established long ago by MIL-STD 461/462. These limits
are well below where they would create problems in the environment, but
allow for the inevitable degradation in product performance that can occur
through component value shift, environmental conditions, and other fugitive
variables.

In order to be able to set limits for Radiated/Conducted susceptibility, an
assumption has to be made about the Radiated/Conducted emissions and how
much radiated/conducted noise there is in an intended environment.

If, the product works fine was the criteria for emissions, then the task
of hardening products against radiated and conducted energy would become
much more difficult.

My $0.02

Daniel E. Teninty, P.E.
Managing Partner
DTEC Associates LLC
Streamlining The Compliance Process
Advancing New Products To Market
http://www.dtec-associates.com
(509) 443-0215
(509) 443-0181 fax

-Original Message-
From: Charles Grasso [mailto:chasgra...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:29 AM
To: dteni...@dtec-associates.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: FW: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals


Hi all,

I have been following this discussion with great interest
and could not resist adding my 2c.

Lest face it - EMC is nothing more than pure overhead to
any corporation. We all have experience of products that
work perfectly fine yet fail the emissions profile by
0.5dB. I will contend that this experience far outweighs the
opposite .Spinning a board or adding ferrites or adding
shielding does nothing to help our discipline reputation.
Couple that with the twilight zone impression of EMC
and one can easily understand why most companies
implement EMC into their process reluctantly.

I will add to that one important factor The regulatory
bodies - especially the FCC. Thanks in large part to
the new FCC Class B compliance procedure ( which
inadvertantly allows failing products into the market
place) companies are more convinced that ever that
EMC is more of an annoyance than a necessity. ( Some
exceptions duly noted..)

Unlike safety, there is no perceived benefit in squeezing
that extra 0.5db out of the emissions profile at a cost
od even .03c. The saving grace might be the immunity
standards. I have had a whole lot more help when the
design engineer actually witnesses his product doing
wierd things.

NARTE is straying in the direction of elitism. Worse than
that they now have professors offering questions for inclusion in
the NARTE exam. We need to be vigilant and keep the
infulence of the academics to a minimum. Example:
The ACES (Applied Computations Society) started a
a group with the goal of PRACTICAL applications
for comutation ..sound familiar. ?? It wasn't long before
the academics (Phds  the like) dominated the group
and turned it to a purely theoretical group - a place
to publish papers etc
Now don't get me wrong.I am all for professors that are willing to teach 
and

guide and mentor. There is how ever a human tendancy
towards creeping elegance and we ned to ensure that the
EMC discipline does not tend in that direction.

My 2c

Charles Grasso
Ansoft Corporation


From: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
Reply-To: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
To: PSTC IEEE-EMC emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: FW: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:11:38 -0800


Rich,

After sending you my reply, I thought that I would open it up

RE: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals

[Charles Grasso]

One comment on the VP for compliance..

It is my undersyand that the Dell VP position does
ALL the functions that are imposed by legislation
on a compamy. EMC is one part. There is of course
Safety, Environmental Issues, Lead-free solder etc..
Dell is taking a very professional approach to
addresses ALL the issues - not just EMC.




From: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
Reply-To: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
To: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com, nutwoo...@nutwood.eu.com
CC: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 01:24:35 -0800


Rich,

Dell Computers, as well as a few other major players, take a proactive
approach to compliance and actually have a VP position for compliance. With
a little investigation into the benefits of having a first rate compliance
department with the ability to design for compliance, test to relevant
standards, compile reports, participate on standards committees, and deal
directly with world wide agencies I would think that most companies that
have global markets would see both the short term and long term benefits to
the bottom line. I would tend to include PC's into the ordinary products
pile, wouldn't you?

Companies that choose to take the adversarial approach to compliance by
cutting corners or only doing the minimum to comply, save dollars in the
short term, but pay later in lost customers, or worse, lawsuits. One of our
clients, had a management team that took this denial/avoidance approach to
NEBS. When the Telecom downturn came, they were left in a position where
there was lots less demand and what demand there was, was for NEBS 
compliant

products. Most of the management team that made those decisions have either
left the company in recent right-sizing exercises, or are working in lesser
positions.

It seems that hindsight is always able to find a goat. When I explain the
benefits of compliance to management teams, I try to focus on the bottom
line benefits of having a product that is marketable everywhere. The costs
for compliance, when compared to the total development cost for a new
product tend to be in the noise. If these costs are amortized over
reasonable quantities, then the unit cost for compliance tends to be a
bargain.

Its not hard to dig up a few good case studies in Product Liability to 
drive

home the point.

Best regards,

Daniel E. Teninty, P.E.
Managing Partner
DTEC Associates LLC
Streamlining The Compliance Process
Advancing New Products To Market
http://www.dtec-associates.com
(509) 443-0215
(509) 443-0181 fax

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Rich Nute
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:36 PM
To: nutwoo...@nutwood.eu.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals


Hi Alan:

   Two questions, does the group see a time when we have a VP Compliance 
on

   level terms with VP Finance, VP Marketing etc, or is this already
   happening in the US.

No.  And not likely to happen in companies with ordinary
products.

As a general rule, compliance is seen as a necessary
evil.  It is a cost without an associated revenue (or
customer-recognized need or benefit).  Few companies
want to give VP status (and an empire) to a non-revenue-
generating function.

Many companies measure the product incremental cost for
compliance.  The objective is to find methods and means
for minimizing these product costs.

Furthermore, few companies recognize the work of compliance
folks as prevention of future unanticipated costs such as
failure of sales due to non-compliance, product liability,
or even product recalls.  The reason the work is not
recognized is the difficulty of measuring the future cost of
non-compliance, especially if the company has never had such
an incident.

   Second Question. Does the group think a formal qualification in
   Compliance Management  CE Marking would be a good idea.

While we may think this is a good idea, most professional
managers in the field of compliance consider the job as one
interim step in their career.  If compliance is a non-
revenue-generating activity, then the step to personal
growth is to measure the cost of compliance for the duration
of one's leadership, and add this to one's CV.  Then, move
on.

Candidates for compliance management might find courses
useful. However, the value of such qualifications is not
for the long term.

Another problem is that upper management doesn't want to be
told that they are restricted by compliance rules insofar as
setting objectives for the products and the company.  They
certainly don't want to feel that the only management folks
qualified for managing a compliance function are those that
are trained and qualified in compliance management.

Formal qualification in compliance management may be seen by
upper management as a power play where the compliance
manager uses his knowledge to 

Re: FW: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals

[Charles Grasso]

Hi all,

I have been following this discussion with great interest
and could not resist adding my 2c.

Lest face it - EMC is nothing more than pure overhead to
any corporation. We all have experience of products that
work perfectly fine yet fail the emissions profile by
0.5dB. I will contend that this experience far outweighs the
opposite .Spinning a board or adding ferrites or adding
shielding does nothing to help our discipline reputation.
Couple that with the twilight zone impression of EMC
and one can easily understand why most companies
implement EMC into their process reluctantly.

I will add to that one important factor The regulatory
bodies - especially the FCC. Thanks in large part to
the new FCC Class B compliance procedure ( which
inadvertantly allows failing products into the market
place) companies are more convinced that ever that
EMC is more of an annoyance than a necessity. ( Some
exceptions duly noted..)

Unlike safety, there is no perceived benefit in squeezing
that extra 0.5db out of the emissions profile at a cost
od even .03c. The saving grace might be the immunity
standards. I have had a whole lot more help when the
design engineer actually witnesses his product doing
wierd things.

NARTE is straying in the direction of elitism. Worse than
that they now have professors offering questions for inclusion in
the NARTE exam. We need to be vigilant and keep the
infulence of the academics to a minimum. Example:
The ACES (Applied Computations Society) started a
a group with the goal of PRACTICAL applications
for comutation ..sound familiar. ?? It wasn't long before
the academics (Phds  the like) dominated the group
and turned it to a purely theoretical group - a place
to publish papers etc
Now don't get me wrong.I am all for professors that are willing to teach and 
guide and mentor. There is how ever a human tendancy

towards creeping elegance and we ned to ensure that the
EMC discipline does not tend in that direction.

My 2c

Charles Grasso
Ansoft Corporation



From: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
Reply-To: Dan Teninty dteni...@dtec-associates.com
To: PSTC IEEE-EMC emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: FW: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:11:38 -0800


Rich,

After sending you my reply, I thought that I would open it up to the group
for comment. I thought I would pass on the information about the NARTE
certification for Product Safety engineers.

Best regards,

Dan

Daniel E. Teninty, P.E.
Managing Partner
DTEC Associates LLC
Streamlining The Compliance Process
Advancing New Products To Market
http://www.dtec-associates.com
(509) 443-0215
(509) 443-0181 fax

-Original Message-
From: Dan Teninty [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:01 PM
To: Rich Nute
Subject: RE: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals


Rich,

I don't disagree with your point of view. It seems that there are a lot of
MBA's devoting allot of time to reducing costs. This is how business is 
run.

The days are gone when, like the founders of your organization, companies
could compete on quality, reliability, features, and perceived value. Now
everything boils down to how can we shave unit cost another $0.03? 
General

Motors has had some high profile cases where this philosophy has led to
injuries and deaths. The world is changing, not always for the better and I
will continue to tilt at windmills. I believe that consumers expect/assume
that products they purchase are safe and won't scramble their TV's 
picture

during the Super Bowl. Quantifying this perception into a benefit that can
be placed into a spread sheet is, I agree, a difficult if not impossible
task, but a good actuary could probably come up with a defensible number.
The point is that the philosophy of corporate management sets the tone for
the rest of the company and if regulatory compliance is not a priority for
management, then it won't be a priority for the compliance department.
Reducing the amount of flame retardant plastic in a product is commendable
if it doesn't compromise the protection it provides. Engineering is about
trade-offs of conflicting requirements. Integrating compliance into a
product should trade off the risk/consequence of non-compliance leading to
an event. Events lead to lawsuits. I've always made a distinction between
standards requirements and safety. Walt Hart at Fluke was an early mentor 
in

product safety and taught me to differentiate between a requirement for a
wire to be blue and a requirement that 5000 Volts not reach an end user.
Harking back to an earlier thread, there are compliance engineers like
yourself who go far beyond the requirements in the standards and understand
the basic principles involved and how this basic science leads to 
standards.

Then there are the folks who have compliance thrust upon them and at the
extreme, haven't got a clue.  In the commercial world of putting up
buildings and other public structures

Presentation Download available - some anyway

[Charles Grasso]

To all interested parties:

Some of the presentations from the 2001
RMCEMC Symposium are now available for
download. Goto our website:
http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc and follow the
links.

As other presentations become available I will
add them so keep checking regularly.

Chas Grasso
RMCEMC (ViceChair)

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