Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Thanks Gert.  That makes sense supported by most VFDs having parameters for all 
the motor ratings.  I have also used a low cost VFD without any programming, 
just a couple of trim pots for torque limit/accel/decal, similar to a low cost 
DC motor control.  Those I have used in constant speed applications on small 
single phase motors simply for supplying the rated 60Hz frequency under varying 
input frequency supplies.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 1:37 AM
To: Nyffenegger, Dave; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

 I think that VFD ensure that the magnetic forces in the motor remain the same.
Magnetic forces are 1:1 related to motor current.
This way a substantial amount of torque remains available at each frequency The 
key is simply keeping the drive voltage linearly related to the frequency, so 
as the motor current remains at its rated value 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment Independent Consultancy 
+ Services Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
 according to EC-directives:
    - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
    - Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
    - Medical Devices 93/42/EC
    - Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC
+ Improvement of Product Quality and Reliability testing Education

Web:    www.cetest.nl (English) 
Phone :  +31 10 415 24 26
---
This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information that is 
confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intended 
for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. 
Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not limited to, 
total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution in any form) by 
persons other than the designated
recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
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Thank you for your co-operation.


-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday 27 September 2016 14:58
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

I will raise another question to stir the pot and solicit comments from the 
motor experts.  We use AC motors driven from VFDs which by definition vary the 
frequency to the motors.  There are many different ways an application may run. 
 It may use the VFD simply to provide some control of motor 
acceleration/deceleration/braking.  It may use the VFD to run the motor a 
various continuous speeds or varying speeds during operation.  The VFD could be 
used to insure the rated input frequency is applied to the motor under 
continuous operation independent of the input power frequency.
How do we get from a motor with a fixed frequency rating on its nameplate to 
proper operation with a VFD in the various applications it could be operated 
in?  There are recommendations to use VFD rated motors but from what I have 
seen they are still rated at fixed frequency.

-Dave


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear exp

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

 I think that VFD ensure that the magnetic forces in the motor remain the same.
Magnetic forces are 1:1 related to motor current.
This way a substantial amount of torque remains available at each frequency
The key is simply keeping the drive voltage linearly related to the frequency,
so as the motor current remains at its rated value 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
+ Independent Consultancy Services
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
 according to EC-directives:
    - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
    - Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
    - Medical Devices 93/42/EC
    - Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC
+ Improvement of Product Quality and Reliability testing
+ Education

Web:    www.cetest.nl (English) 
Phone :  +31 10 415 24 26
---
This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information 
that is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights 
and are intended for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. 
Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not 
limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or 
distribution in any form) by persons other than the designated 
recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, 
please notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and 
delete the material from any computer. 
Thank you for your co-operation.


-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday 27 September 2016 14:58
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

I will raise another question to stir the pot and solicit comments from the 
motor experts.  We use AC motors driven from VFDs which by definition vary the 
frequency to the motors.  There are many different ways an application may run. 
 It may use the VFD simply to provide some control of motor 
acceleration/deceleration/braking.  It may use the VFD to run the motor a 
various continuous speeds or varying speeds during operation.  The VFD could be 
used to insure the rated input frequency is applied to the motor under 
continuous operation independent of the input power frequency.
How do we get from a motor with a fixed frequency rating on its nameplate to 
proper operation with a VFD in the various applications it could be operated 
in?  There are recommendations to use VFD rated motors but from what I have 
seen they are still rated at fixed frequency.

-Dave


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerne

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Ted Eckert]

It's slightly off topic, but I thought I would share this 
sign<https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ap8stJM0LsH4jQzsx7ADEQ09XOkH> from the days when you 
didn't want somebody to try to run their 25 Hz motor on a 60 Hz circuit.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:03 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries


Pleased to see the 3 Amigo's... er,  3 Brian's working thru 
this issue.  :>)

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 9:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries


The third Brian opines:   do what O'Connel says, then do a few tests, too!
Adjust load ratings for 50 Hz if necessary...

Brian Gregory
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: "Brian O'Connell" 
<oconne...@tamuracorp.com<mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:36:38 +

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Pete Perkins]

 

Pleased to see the 3 Amigo's. er,  3 Brian's working thru
this issue.  :>)

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 9:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

 

 

The third Brian opines:   do what O'Connel says, then do a few tests, too!

Adjust load ratings for 50 Hz if necessary...

 

Brian Gregory
720-450-4933



-- Original Message --
From: "Brian O'Connell" <oconne...@tamuracorp.com
<mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com> >
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:36:38 +

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would
apply to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what
is on your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings
or instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed
for use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data
supporting those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test
data for operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are
rated "60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I
believe the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the
function of the product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors
are thermally, overload, and short circuit protected.  They are
"intermittent use" and not likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz
power. However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to
one of their international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge.
Do we need to be concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't
know. I cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be
used in a way it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if
something did happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> >

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compl

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

I will raise another question to stir the pot and solicit comments from the 
motor experts.  We use AC motors driven from VFDs which by definition vary the 
frequency to the motors.  There are many different ways an application may run. 
 It may use the VFD simply to provide some control of motor 
acceleration/deceleration/braking.  It may use the VFD to run the motor a 
various continuous speeds or varying speeds during operation.  The VFD could be 
used to insure the rated input frequency is applied to the motor under 
continuous operation independent of the input power frequency.
How do we get from a motor with a fixed frequency rating on its nameplate to 
proper operation with a VFD in the various applications it could be operated 
in?  There are recommendations to use VFD rated motors but from what I have 
seen they are still rated at fixed frequency.

-Dave


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings ar

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Kunde, Brian]

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

By applying a 60 Hz motor to 50 Hz you (your customer) violates one of the 
principles of building machines. The principle is that safe machines are built 
using safe components. The latter cannot be guaranteed anymore, so the machine 
is unsafe. Full stop. This is the agency way of safety thinking.

Let me try a slightly  non-conventional approach to product safety:

An electric motor (in terms of risk) is nothing else but a long copper wire and 
some iron, that in some mysterious way converts electrical hazards into 
mechanical hazards and thermal hazards. The mechanical hazards seem to reduce 
(slower speed), so I see no principal problem here. The electrical hazards are 
not principally different at 50 Hz .  What remains is a thermal hazard. 
Inductances in 60 Hz motors are lower than 50 Hz motors, so currents rise 
(120%), and so thermal copper dissipation. At 50 Hz eddy current related losses 
are lower, but the increased magnetisation might compensate for that.
In  the end, risks seem only thermal related. Adding a supplemental non 
auto-resetting temperature protection may provide the (additional safety 
protection layer) thermal safety your customers need. 

Although not really hazard related, you should also consider the increased 
start-up current.

Any 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
+ Independent Consultancy Services
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
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-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday 26 September 2016 16:39
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Brian Gregory]

 The third Brian opines:   do what O'Connel says, then do a few tests, 
too!Adjust load ratings for 50 Hz if necessary... Brian Gregory
720-450-4933

-- Original Message --
From: "Brian O'Connell" <oconne...@tamuracorp.com>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:36:38 +

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Cortland Richmond]

On 9/26/2016 2:26 PM, Richard Nute wrote:

Ask the motor manufacturer.

In addition to running slower, the motor probably does not have enough iron to 
produce enough power, and will likely overheat and trip the thermal protection.


As far back as the 1950's, US service members in Europe and the UK (then 
separate) were using their own home appliances on 120-to-240V 
transformers with few problems.  Many of those I served with in Germany 
between 1966 and 1983  had their appliances shipped over and back again, 
too.


It's still possible today's more cost-conscious and less conservative  
designs might not be able to stand the excess current.



Cortland Richmond
(SFC USA, retired)

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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Brian O'Connell]

For this particular case, agreed. There are both legal (at least for this side 
of the cod pond) and engineering rationale differences for a false positive and 
a false negative; that is, if there is specific data indicating an operating 
condition not conformant with rating label where test data indicates unsafe or 
unreliable operating conditions, then supporting test data is indicated. It is 
almost never indicated for the opposite without additional risk.

For North America in general, and the USA in particular, operating conditions 
outside of the approved ratings and conditions of acceptability should not be 
considered in any customer discussions.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 2:14 PM
To: Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

You can, and should, disclose test data that shows that it won't work. If your 
customer ignores that (and they sometimes do), it's not your responsibility.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 6:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[John Woodgate]

You can, and should, disclose test data that shows that it won't work. If your 
customer ignores that (and they sometimes do), it's not your responsibility.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 6:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the li

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Also the internal cooling is sometimes very specific to the expected operating 
speed of the internal fan.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 2:26 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

> Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that 
> are rated "60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ 
> power?

Ask the motor manufacturer.

In addition to running slower, the motor probably does not have enough iron to 
produce enough power, and will likely overheat and trip the thermal protection.

Rich

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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[B Rowland]

PSEC colleagues;

Also, at 50 Hz, the inductance, designed for 60 Hz operation, allows higher 
currents to flow, but there is typically less cooling, due to the 15%-lower 
rotational speed…

Barry Rowland
Munich


On  26/09/2016, at 19:36 , "Brian O'Connell" <oconne...@tamuracorp.com> wrote:

> How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
> diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
> install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would 
> apply to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what 
> is on your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 
> 
> If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings 
> or instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed 
> for use at the following operating conditions... blah.
> 
> There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
> not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data 
> supporting those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test 
> data for operations outside of the unit's ratings.
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries
> 
> Dear experts,
> 
> Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are 
> rated "60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I 
> believe the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the 
> function of the product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors 
> are thermally, overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent 
> use" and not likely to overheat.
> 
> As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz 
> power. However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one 
> of their international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we 
> need to be concerned about this?
> 
> Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
> sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. 
> I cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a 
> way it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
> happening.
> 
> Any opinions on this?
> 
> Thanks,
> The Other Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
> mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
> 
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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Brian O'Connell]

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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<emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Richard Nute]

> Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase
> 3hp motors) that are rated "60HZ" be used in products
> going to countries that have 50HZ power?  

Ask the motor manufacturer.

In addition to running slower, the motor probably does not have enough iron to 
produce enough power, and will likely overheat and trip the thermal protection.

Rich

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Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Mike Sherman ----- Original Message -----]

Be aware that the EU has some energy efficiency requirements for 3 phase motors. Motors designed for 60 hertz may well have more difficulty meeting these requirements. Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: Brian KundeTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSent: September 26, 2016 at 9:43 AMSubject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countriesDear experts,Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated "60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not likely to overheat.As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be concerned about this?Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did happening.Any opinions on this?Thanks,The Other BrianLECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.-This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.htmlFor help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher:  David Heald: 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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David Heald dhe...@gmail.com

[PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Kunde, Brian]

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: