Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Scott: Very, very, likely.. Jack - Original Message - From: Scott Barrows sbarr...@curtis-straus.com To: Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net; PSTC emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:10 PM Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | Jacob, | I would imagine that when the electrical inspector came in to review the electrical connections of that computerized, | T1 hooked up brand new home, there would be an issue that would relate to the NEC. | | Scott | | Jacob Schanker wrote: | | Rich: | | You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law | regarding the domestic environment. | | This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have | always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set | of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference | NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own | from scratch. | | Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the | NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home | appliances and such? | | Jack | | Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. | 65 Crandon Way | Rochester, NY 14618 | Phone: 716 442 3909 | Fax: 716 442 2182 | j.schan...@ieee.org | | - Original Message - | From: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com | To: gkerv...@eu-link.com | Cc: schan...@frontiernet.net; wo...@sensormatic.com; | emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com | Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM | Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | | | | | | | | | Hi Gregg: | | | | | |Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the | equipment is used | |where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third | party like UL | | | | Yes. More specifically: | | | |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... | | | |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, | |of which UL is one. | | | |If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. | | | | No and yes. | | | | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. | | | | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do | | require third-party safety certification. | | | | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. | | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have | | NRTL-certified products. | | | | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, | | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, | | including domestic products, to be listed by a third- | | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. | | | | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the | | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, | | or state governments, the government agency decides | | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The | | acceptable certification houses are published locally. | | | | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier | | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also | | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance | | under the NEC. | | | | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various | | city, county, or state governments under the local version | | of the NEC. | | | | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by | | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. | | | | There are a few pockets where local governments do not | | require listing under the NEC. | | | | In summary: | | | | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be | | certified by an NRTL. | | | | The NEC requires products used in an installation | | (including domestic places) to be certified by an | | organization designated by the local government | | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. | | | | These are independent functions. | | | | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification | | is required throughout the USA. | | | | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products | | is spotty at best. | | | | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends | | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. | | | | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the | | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since | | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little | | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. | | | |AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification | is mandated? | | | | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification | | is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities | | or counties which have very low population densities. | | | | | | Best regards, | | Rich | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Jacob, I would imagine that when the electrical inspector came in to review the electrical connections of that computerized, T1 hooked up brand new home, there would be an issue that would relate to the NEC. Scott Jacob Schanker wrote: Rich: You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law regarding the domestic environment. This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own from scratch. Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home appliances and such? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com To: gkerv...@eu-link.com Cc: schan...@frontiernet.net; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | | | | Hi Gregg: | | |Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used |where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL | | Yes. More specifically: | |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... | |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, |of which UL is one. | |If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. | | No and yes. | | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. | | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do | require third-party safety certification. | | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have | NRTL-certified products. | | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, | including domestic products, to be listed by a third- | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. | | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, | or state governments, the government agency decides | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The | acceptable certification houses are published locally. | | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance | under the NEC. | | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various | city, county, or state governments under the local version | of the NEC. | | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. | | There are a few pockets where local governments do not | require listing under the NEC. | | In summary: | | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be | certified by an NRTL. | | The NEC requires products used in an installation | (including domestic places) to be certified by an | organization designated by the local government | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. | | These are independent functions. | | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification | is required throughout the USA. | | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products | is spotty at best. | | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. | | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. | |AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? | | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification | is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities | or counties which have very low population densities. | | | Best regards, | Rich | | | | | | | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer
RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Unfortunately, compliance to the NEC is only required if the local or state government adopts it. Even then, they are not required to adopt any specific edition of the NEC. There are communities that are still using older editions as their current code. Some states have their own electrical codes, which they feel are better than NEC's. So, there are no absolutes about this subject. -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM To: gkerv...@eu-link.com Cc: schan...@frontiernet.net; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA Hi Gregg: Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL Yes. More specifically: If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, of which UL is one. If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. No and yes. No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do require third-party safety certification. OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have NRTL-certified products. HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, including domestic places. The NEC requires products, including domestic products, to be listed by a third- party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, or state governments, the government agency decides which certification houses are acceptable to them. The acceptable certification houses are published locally. For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance under the NEC. Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various city, county, or state governments under the local version of the NEC. Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. There are a few pockets where local governments do not require listing under the NEC. In summary: OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be certified by an NRTL. The NEC requires products used in an installation (including domestic places) to be certified by an organization designated by the local government agency charged with enforcing the NEC. These are independent functions. For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification is required throughout the USA. Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products is spotty at best. Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the electrical installation is complete and approved, and since virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities or counties which have very low population densities. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Hi Jack: You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law regarding the domestic environment. I meant to state that the NEC does indeed have the force of law not only for the domestic environment but for all electrical installations within the scope of the NEC. This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own from scratch. The NEC as published by the NFPA is indeed a recommended code. It is specifically offered to authorities for adoption as their Code. For example, the States of Oregon and Washington adopt each edition of the Code. The adoption is NOT a reference, but a true establishment of the NEC as the local Electrical Code, i.e., a regulation under the law. (Most authorities adopting the Code also have a few variations as well as identification of accepted safety certification houses. Sometimes, this is a pamphlet that supplements the NEC book.) However, various governments do indeed develop their own electrical code. The cities of Chicago and Los Angeles are two examples. Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home appliances and such? The adoption of the Code makes the Code a regulation under the law. Usually the law is the one that establishes the Building Code, of which the Electrical Code is a part. I recently posted a message specifically identifying the NEC Articles that specify third-party safety certification of appliances. I hope this answers your question! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Rich: You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law regarding the domestic environment. This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own from scratch. Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home appliances and such? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com To: gkerv...@eu-link.com Cc: schan...@frontiernet.net; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | | | | Hi Gregg: | | |Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used |where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL | | Yes. More specifically: | |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... | |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, |of which UL is one. | |If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. | | No and yes. | | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. | | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do | require third-party safety certification. | | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have | NRTL-certified products. | | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, | including domestic products, to be listed by a third- | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. | | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, | or state governments, the government agency decides | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The | acceptable certification houses are published locally. | | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance | under the NEC. | | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various | city, county, or state governments under the local version | of the NEC. | | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. | | There are a few pockets where local governments do not | require listing under the NEC. | | In summary: | | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be | certified by an NRTL. | | The NEC requires products used in an installation | (including domestic places) to be certified by an | organization designated by the local government | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. | | These are independent functions. | | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification | is required throughout the USA. | | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products | is spotty at best. | | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. | | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. | |AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? | | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification | is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities | or counties which have very low population densities. | | | Best regards, | Rich | | | | | | | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Hi Gregg: Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL Yes. More specifically: If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, of which UL is one. If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. No and yes. No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do require third-party safety certification. OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have NRTL-certified products. HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, including domestic places. The NEC requires products, including domestic products, to be listed by a third- party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, or state governments, the government agency decides which certification houses are acceptable to them. The acceptable certification houses are published locally. For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance under the NEC. Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various city, county, or state governments under the local version of the NEC. Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. There are a few pockets where local governments do not require listing under the NEC. In summary: OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be certified by an NRTL. The NEC requires products used in an installation (including domestic places) to be certified by an organization designated by the local government agency charged with enforcing the NEC. These are independent functions. For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification is required throughout the USA. Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products is spotty at best. Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the electrical installation is complete and approved, and since virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities or counties which have very low population densities. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Don't forget the Product Liability Lawyers ! ! Listing a product does not protect the manufacturer from being sued, it just establishes that the manufacturer has been duly diligent and therefore has not been negligent. This makes a huge difference when a lawsuit happens. In our society, where lawyers outnumber engineers, suit happens. Best regards, Dan DTEC Associates LLC http://www.dtec-associates.com Streamlining the Compliance Process 5406 S. Glendora Drive Spokane, WA 99223 (509) 443-0215 (509) 443-0181 fax -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gregg Kervill Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:12 AM To: 'Jacob Schanker'; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Subject: RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. Comments please. AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. Comments please. AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
